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bringingyouthefuture

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Posted (edited)

Oh man!  Yes when I read those I think I was 11 or 12-years-old and I loved those books, I also loved the original 3 Dragonlance books (Dragons of Autumn Twilight,etc).  I went back recently like 3 years ago to re-read the Dragonlance books and I came to the same conclusion - they are really rough - language, plot character development - they don't really have much in terms of any of that.  I haven't re-read the Icewind Dale books, but I have no doubt they are the same.  When I was young though they really knocked my socks off, probably because they are easy reads and simple plots, basically young adult fantasy.

 

Regardless though they created some pretty timeless characters.

Edited by bringingyouthefuture
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“How do you 'accidentally' kill a nobleman in his own mansion?"

"With a knife in the chest. Or, rather, a pair of knives in the chest...”

The Final Empire, Mistborn Trilogy

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Posted (edited)

 

Oh, I know the U.S.A. has decent folklore, read a few pieces here and there too. Still does not absolve it from responsibility for House of Mouse, though. :shifty:

don't know why people have such gripes against disney, honestly.

 

Probably because of the Euro Disney debacle, and because they killed Bambi's mom the heartless cads ... I am sure it has nothing to do with them censoring many classic stories.

 

I was going to post above but don't have a lot of proof and not sure it matters, but I think of  Disney as having cult classic status in the US.  Most people ignore it, but those that love it really subscribe to it all.

Edited by bringingyouthefuture

“How do you 'accidentally' kill a nobleman in his own mansion?"

"With a knife in the chest. Or, rather, a pair of knives in the chest...”

The Final Empire, Mistborn Trilogy

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, the thing is when you're young you can be so easily impressed by just about anything with new concepts (regardless of their execution) because you are, quite obviously, so innocent and inexperienced. I will happily confess to being totally awestruck by the first Dragonlance trilogy as a young adolescent (it also definitely improved my English at the time -- I'm pretty sure I learned the word "taunt" from that Kender character whose name I cannot recall anymore), but I'm almost certain it couldn't possibly bear re-reading today. So yeah, there's that.

Edited by xzar_monty

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I am sure it has nothing to do with them censoring many classic stories.

 

To be fair Jakob and Wilhelm Grimm censored the classic stories as well. The 1st edition was literally a collection of tales preserved for posterity; but by the 7th edition they had edited the stories to appeal to (and sell to) families.

 

They cut out stories (like "How Some Children Play at Slaughter" where a kid, playing at being a butcher, cuts his brother's throat, is stabbed by his mom, who realizes that she left her third child to drown so kills herself and then the dad comes and finds them all and dies of sadness) and edited others for content (like Rapunzel being pregnant by her prince being the clue to her captor that she was seeing someone, removing the sex from "The Frog Prince", or removing the sisters of Cinderella cutting off pieces of their feet at the suggestion of their mom to try to fit the glass slipper). They also added or strengthened Christian elements (most notably in rewriting "Brother and Sister" as "Hansel and Gretel", but also changing fairies into godless witches and giants into devils) in tales.

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Oh, I know the U.S.A. has decent folklore, read a few pieces here and there too. Still does not absolve it from responsibility for House of Mouse, though. :shifty:

don't know why people have such gripes against disney, honestly.

 

 

Can't answer for other people, but I blame Disney for the trend of American pop-culture industry slapping often cloying and saccharine "happy endings" onto everything, no matter how unfitting. Plus proselytizing. I am possibly wrong, since I didn't really bother to research origins of the trend, it's just that Disney is an easy target what with adding those to, say, "Little Mermaid" or "Notre-Dame de Paris" of all things.

 

That, and also how carefully, skillfully, but soullessly manufactured their products seem to be. Marketing always appealing to most recent societal fads, nary a controversy or anything bolder ever1, just a string of maximally inoffensive consumables all wrapped in layers of pink, soft cotton candy. And hey, these things have a right to exist, of course....it's just makes me sad, seeing how f†cking influential this trend is -- it's not even a trend anymore, it's bloody norm. :(

 

(Bambi's mum not on them, though. Done in by the original writer, an Austrian. :biggrin:)

 

 

 

1 Yeah, I know "Pulp Fiction" technically is a Disney product, but you know what I mean.

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Hm, in Germany the sisters of Aschenputtel (Cinderella pfff ;)) still cut parts of their feet off to fit into the shoe.

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I was under the impression that the Grimm's edited the story in their later editions to remove that detail but I may be confusing the differences between the Grimm's "Aschenputtel" and  Perrault's "Cindrillon" with the added 'come-upance' coda the Grimm's added to "Aschenputtel" where the stepsisters are blinded at the wedding?

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Posted (edited)

I'm gonna go out on a limb here ... I think most American film shies  away from ambiguity - it needs everything to resolve itself in some form as @bugarup described above.  I have been noticing this especially with the Anime classics being made into movies ... Ghost in the Shell for example - its like the American film version couldn't get past the heroic / love story tale to get into the gritty philosophy of existence and the ambiguity of the ending that made the anime feel like something experienced not told.   It's almost like they took only the parts of the story that fit into their happy ending mold, and unfortunately discarded the parts that made Ghost in the Shell great.  I would hate if they tried to make a movie from Akira - it would end up being cast with the Rock (fyi I really like the Rock for some reason so not making fun of the guy), and turn into a movie about a motorcycle gang member finding love and redeeming himself by saving Tokyo.

 

Edit:

Not sure I blame Disney for all this though ...

Edited by bringingyouthefuture

“How do you 'accidentally' kill a nobleman in his own mansion?"

"With a knife in the chest. Or, rather, a pair of knives in the chest...”

The Final Empire, Mistborn Trilogy

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Posted (edited)

I'm gonna go out on a limb here ... I think most American film shies  away from ambiguity -

 

we taught in europe for some time.  there is a term o' art european and american academics use when an author fails to answer essential questions raised during course of the narrative: bad writing. chekov's gun, is not made better if is an essential plot point.

 

nevertheless, is often arguable as to whether or not all essential plot points has been answered.

 

 

ambiguous end, but does anything more need be said? 

 

am gonna leave popular horror aside as is a kinda trope to have an ambiguous ending in such films, yes?  end scene often makes audience wonder if the evil were genuine put to rest.  but it does make a bit difficult to analyze kubrick films as a few embrace horror elements.  have the shining end ambiguous is a horror thing or a kubrick thing? 2001? but regardless, generalization 'bout lack o' appreciation for ambiguous endings would rule out americans liking almost all horror, yes?  well, horror and kubrick. 

 

nevertheless, ambiguous conclusions in writing and film continue to be popular on both sides o' pond. you wanna deal with film, so we will leave aside serious catalog o' fiction... though stuff such as grapes of wrath obvious is gonna straddle media types. what happens to the joad family?  don't know regardless if is film or novel.  phillp k. **** is also gonna be problematic for your generalization given how popular a few films based on his books has been, and how filmmakers is running out o' phillip k. **** stories to transform. total recall (not our favorite) got a reboot 'cause it were so popular the first time.

 

in addition to already mentioned, no country for old men, the graduate, taxi driver, inception, drive, black swan, memento, lost in translation, and birdman is a few off the films which did well in the US.

 

...

 

am hoping point were made w/o needing to belabor.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps akira is one o' those much overrated anime movies. ghost in the shell is less liked by critics, so we need not hate on it. grave of the fireflies and spirited away is gonna be only japanese anime on our list o' great movies.  never understood the fascination.  liked akira better when it were called godzilla.  in fact, get rid o' anime films functional rehashing pinocchio, godzilla and buffy the vampire slayer (which admitted were simple a better version o' anime such as project a ko and similar tripe) and you got little to talk 'bout.

 

pps 

 

is too bad the ballad of buster scruggs weren't a series as original intended, but the bounty hunter vignette, the finale, ends on an a decided ambiguous note.  

 

 

 

worth watching on netflix if you have not seen. some of the best tv programing we have enjoyed in a long time.

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I think if anything, living at home is much more of a European thing. Parents regularly "kick" their kids out in the US, to give them that extra push. And stop them from having people over ha *I mean didn't happen to me or anything*

 

 

might also be a generational thing 'cause Gromnir, and most o' our contemporaries, were not needing a push out the door.  never even discussed with family as we just assumed that w/i a year o' graduating high school, we would be independent.  actual happened sooner as we went away to University and then had summer jobs in california as 'posed to returning back home.  woulda' left regardless... join military or go back to working ranches in the dakotas or perhaps do wet work in se asia.  

 

we listen to millennials complain 'bout their terrible families, then find out they is 25 and still living at home? 

 

s8dcUgc.gif

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

That is very much a financial thing. A lot of us Millennial's hit "just after highschool" or "just after college" right in the middle of the big financial collapse in 2008. Add on to that the rent crisis hitting major US urban cities, the cost of tuition, the stagnation of wages, the increased costs of tuition and medical costs, it creates a very different financial environment for people of that age today as compared to thirty years ago.

 

It's not just "leaving home" that's been impacted by this. Millennial's have children later, get married later, buy cars later, buy houses later, etc. All of this can be traced to Millennial's have less money and less secure finances at the same stages of life than prior generations.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/01/13/millennials-falling-behind-boomer-parents/96530338/

 

 

(Wrong thread for this discussion, but . . .) Calling BS on this. Grew up a ward of the state, graduated '06, had $150 to my name, immediately moved out of home, and never had to move back in.

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@Gromnir - well bad writing can be many things, but one thing it isn't is good :w00t:  How's that for ambiguous?

 

No, you are correct, let me rephrase that, most bad American films are the ones lacking, of course there are many great films - the ending of Inception drove me crazy, but I enjoyed that film greatly.  I did say most American films, and there are so few really good ones in a year, I think my statement can stand, maybe?

 

But - a lot of the films you mentioned do fall into the standard film format definitely (except maybe the horror films):  heroic redemption, love story, you can add anti-hero if you want to get specific, but what those films did good is not beat you over the head with it, and often turned it on its nose.  No Country For Old Men - the hero cop does the most heroic thing - walks away so he can live to tell the tale (just one example).

 

We can disagree about Anime - the ones you mentioned I don't watch - Spirited Away is more like Disney than even Disney wants to admit.  But honest, a film like Ghost in the Shell has the hero elements etc but its true genius lives in the ambiguity of the main characters humanity - and as she moves deeper and deeper into the "net," how she slowly begins to question her reality - say want you want but that was pretty groundbreaking for the time - though you could easily trace the influence to Phillip K **** and Asimov.  As for Akira, it is just visually amazing, but the story is so complicated (convoluted if you must) I brought it up just as a point to show that Hollywood trying to fit it into a film ... well good luck with that.  I didn't see Battle Angel Alita yet, but I am guessing they somewhat tortured that film with overtly romantic gestures and moments of heroism that would make John Wayne jealous.


“How do you 'accidentally' kill a nobleman in his own mansion?"

"With a knife in the chest. Or, rather, a pair of knives in the chest...”

The Final Empire, Mistborn Trilogy

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I didn't see Battle Angel Alita yet, but I am guessing they somewhat tortured that film with overtly romantic gestures and moments of heroism that would make John Wayne jealous.

 

 

 

am thinking you has kinda lost track o' your original point... whatever it mighta' been.  isn't some kinda american resistance to ambiguity... or is it?  don't even know what you are trying to say.

 

*chuckle*

 

however, we couldn't help but chuckle at the john wayne bit.  whenever a famous director mentions his favorite films, is anybody surprised to see the searchers listed?

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Posted (edited)

Did I get this thread confused with the other movie thread ... ?

 

Edit:

And don't troll the POE2 steam page ... or else I'll start ranting.

Edited by bringingyouthefuture

“How do you 'accidentally' kill a nobleman in his own mansion?"

"With a knife in the chest. Or, rather, a pair of knives in the chest...”

The Final Empire, Mistborn Trilogy

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Oh man!  Yes when I read those I think I was 11 or 12-years-old and I loved those books, I also loved the original 3 Dragonlance books (Dragons of Autumn Twilight,etc).  I went back recently like 3 years ago to re-read the Dragonlance books and I came to the same conclusion - they are really rough - language, plot character development - they don't really have much in terms of any of that.  I haven't re-read the Icewind Dale books, but I have no doubt they are the same.  When I was young though they really knocked my socks off, probably because they are easy reads and simple plots, basically young adult fantasy.

 

Regardless though they created some pretty timeless characters.

To be fair to RAS, the Dark Elf Trilogy was quite good, imo, truly made you feel the suffering of someone who doesn't want to be who he was raised to be and who doesn't belong anywhere, both under ground as well as on the surface. It was the series of novels that introduced me to the Realms and to D&D novels.

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I was under the impression that the Grimm's edited the story in their later editions to remove that detail but I may be confusing the differences between the Grimm's "Aschenputtel" and  Perrault's "Cindrillon" with the added 'come-upance' coda the Grimm's added to "Aschenputtel" where the stepsisters are blinded at the wedding?

I can’t say which version I grew up with, and can’t double check it as it back in my parents house, but the two volumes of Grimm’s stories I read are R rated horror stories. No wonder I have issues.


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however, we couldn't help but chuckle at the john wayne bit.  whenever a famous director mentions his favorite films, is anybody surprised to see the searchers listed?

Well, yeah. Man Who Shot Liberty Valance is easily the best Ford/Wayne western... but then it might be my European sensibility talking. I know Sergio Leone would agree.


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Posted (edited)
I can’t say which version I grew up with, and can’t double check it as it back in my parents house, but the two volumes of Grimm’s stories I read are R rated horror stories. No wonder I have issues.

 

Folk/fairy tales are like that. :) One popular in my parts has a witch twisting out dog's legs one a day and eventually ripping its tongue out and then someone drops into the ember pit and burns alive. Grew up to be a massive horror fan.  :biggrin:

 

 

I know Sergio Leone would agree.

 

Sergio Leone ruined the Western genre for me. The very first Western I saw was "For a few dollars more", it blew my mind and since then my reaction to any non-Leone Western was "Seriously, what's with this cheesy schlock?"
 
Have to watch "Yojimbo" one of them days. 
Edited by bugarup
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I could never get my handle on movies with Marion in 'em.

 

There is "Once upon a Time in the West"! That is THE western! Sergio Leone FTW!


Nerf Troubadour!

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I know Sergio Leone would agree.

Sergio Leone ruined the Western genre for me. The very first Western I saw was "For a few dollars more", it blew my mind and since then my reaction to any non-Leone Western was "Seriously, what's with this cheesy schlock?"

Good, Bad and the Ugly lands easily among my top 10 favourite and things Sergio focuses on are more compelling to me than frontier myths of original westerns. However, I feel that familiarity with what Sergio was parodying only elevates his works. Knowing that he also pretty much plagiarized Kurosawa works slightly lessens the impact.

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I think if anything, living at home is much more of a European thing. Parents regularly "kick" their kids out in the US, to give them that extra push. And stop them from having people over ha *I mean didn't happen to me or anything*

 

 

might also be a generational thing 'cause Gromnir, and most o' our contemporaries, were not needing a push out the door.  never even discussed with family as we just assumed that w/i a year o' graduating high school, we would be independent.  actual happened sooner as we went away to University and then had summer jobs in california as 'posed to returning back home.  woulda' left regardless... join military or go back to working ranches in the dakotas or perhaps do wet work in se asia.  

 

we listen to millennials complain 'bout their terrible families, then find out they is 25 and still living at home? 

 

s8dcUgc.gif

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

That is very much a financial thing. A lot of us Millennial's hit "just after highschool" or "just after college" right in the middle of the big financial collapse in 2008. Add on to that the rent crisis hitting major US urban cities, the cost of tuition, the stagnation of wages, the increased costs of tuition and medical costs, it creates a very different financial environment for people of that age today as compared to thirty years ago.

 

It's not just "leaving home" that's been impacted by this. Millennial's have children later, get married later, buy cars later, buy houses later, etc. All of this can be traced to Millennial's have less money and less secure finances at the same stages of life than prior generations.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/01/13/millennials-falling-behind-boomer-parents/96530338/

 

 

(Wrong thread for this discussion, but . . .) Calling BS on this. Grew up a ward of the state, graduated '06, had $150 to my name, immediately moved out of home, and never had to move back in.

 

Congratulations, you bucked the trend. As I made clear in an earlier post, demographic statistics do not apply to *individuals*, but are broad statements about large groups of particular cohorts. Just because it happens to a large percentage of people in a particular cohort, and there are statistics that indicate why, does not mean it will happen to *you*. Conversely, your story doesn't change the broad trends or the reasons for them.

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Posted (edited)

Anecdotal Evidence

 

It's also a cultural thing though. As I already said - in Italy young people stay a lot longer with Mamma e papà than for example Germans or Romanian do. 

I can still can't see that italian millenials feel more entitled than german or romanian ones. So maybe this part of the discussion doesn't have that much to do with one's overall behavior in the first place? 

Edited by Boeroer

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Posted (edited)

Back to the topic though...I have no idea why people are so mad about Epic launcher.Sure its much worse than steam but...the developers get more money for their games(cause they don't give them extra percentages to valve) and we as consumers get a better market as the result of healthy competition.

 

Im pretty sure even if epic games store would have had more features than steam noone would use it,because people are used to steam so maybe epic games think these exclusive deals are the only way to show ppl the new store.Anyway its such a tiny inconvenience but possible big gains in the future for the marken and consumers alike.People who cry anti-consumerism om this one have no idea what they talking about.

Edited by Kovil

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I can understand why some people are mad (even if I'm not). But even if you are mad about the Outer Worlds going to the Epic Store - why go to PoE's or Deadfire's Steam pages and leave bad reviews there? That's the reasoning of imbeciles.

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Congratulations, you bucked the trend. As I made clear in an earlier post, demographic statistics do not apply to *individuals*, but are broad statements about large groups of particular cohorts. Just because it happens to a large percentage of people in a particular cohort, and there are statistics that indicate why, does not mean it will happen to *you*. Conversely, your story doesn't change the broad trends or the reasons for them.

 

 

 

the problem you face is the volume o' statistics which indicate generational narcissism is indeed a factor in many o' the problems millennials is facing.  we posted an article which included a few such statistics, and as we already noted, you may be overwhelmed, if you wish, by the statistics resulting from a comprehensive search for scholarly articles addressing, "millennials narcissistic personality disorder" (is probable a bad sign when the phenomenon has a label used by scholars) and/or "generation y narcissism." as we revealed earlier, statistics also show how the economic difficulties o' the great recession is also generational predictable, and hardly generational unique. is enough statistics to support whichever why you wish to believe. 

 

as such, am thinking anecdotal becomes a reasonable personal solution for severing the gordian knot. 

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Posted (edited)

I can understand why some people are mad (even if I'm not). But even if you are mad about the Outer Worlds going to the Epic Store - why go to PoE's or Deadfire's Steam pages and leave bad reviews there? That's the reasoning of imbeciles.

 

Ridiculous...

Edited by Kovil

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