Might is botched the same way as in PoE1

[thelee]

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/107915-why-is-naval-combat-so-broken/page-1

 

You didn't create it but took unreasonable offense. Clearly too deeply invested in a feature that never got fleshed out to your expectations. How ironic.

 

I don't understand why you're trying to go on a war path here.

 

Also, actual quote from xzar_monty in that thread: "It makes no sense whatsoever, but I've decided to let it lie."

 

That doesn't sound like taking unreasonable offense, but having issues with something that's messed up but making peace with it. Let's not distort what people are saying to fit your own aggrieved narrative.

[Verde]

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/107915-why-is-naval-combat-so-broken/page-1

 

You didn't create it but took unreasonable offense. Clearly too deeply invested in a feature that never got fleshed out to your expectations. How ironic.

I don't understand why you're trying to go on a war path here.

 

Also, actual quote from xzar_monty in that thread: "It makes no sense whatsoever, but I've decided to let it lie."

 

That doesn't sound like taking unreasonable offense, but having issues with something that's messed up but making peace with it. Let's not distort what people are saying to fit your own aggrieved narrative.

If you read the entire topic you will see how he does not let it lie, but instead keeps pushing it. And it's not the first time, but pretty frequently actually.

 

I have no narrative except to stop the Deadfire mob. Literally unplayable.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Verde

[xzar_monty]

 

I also didn't understand the giant part.

 

OP is talking about being aumaua.

 

It's always so interesting, in a genre that is predicated on the fantastic and limited only by one's imagination, that some people (OP included) are really stuck in a particular mindset of how a game must be and that vision is generally based on a very tolkien-esque rendition of AD&D. Kind of antithetical to the genre's point.

 

Regarding aumaua: indeed, yes, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

As for the paradox you've mentioned: yep, it's absolutely delightful. And almost incomprehensible. Interestingly, this phenomenon can also be seen in fantasy literature: much of it is just staggeringly poor, umpteenth-generation Tolkien-derivative drivel. And then, every once in a while, when something spectacularly good appears (like Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, which is clearly fantasy but not only fantasy), its success is somewhat hampered by the fact that it doesn't follow the rules (like, what rules?).

[xzar_monty]

Please, Verde, for the sake of simple human courtesy, do not tell lies. I did not take offense. You are not going to be able to demonstrate that I did, because I did not. Do not take your own interpretation as truth.

Edited February 6, 2019 by xzar_monty

[thelee]

 

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/107915-why-is-naval-combat-so-broken/page-1

 

You didn't create it but took unreasonable offense. Clearly too deeply invested in a feature that never got fleshed out to your expectations. How ironic.

I don't understand why you're trying to go on a war path here.

 

Also, actual quote from xzar_monty in that thread: "It makes no sense whatsoever, but I've decided to let it lie."

 

That doesn't sound like taking unreasonable offense, but having issues with something that's messed up but making peace with it. Let's not distort what people are saying to fit your own aggrieved narrative.

 

If you read the entire topic you will see how he does not let it lie, but instead keeps pushing it. And it's not the first time, but pretty frequently actually.

 

I have no narrative except to stop the Deadfire mob. Literally unplayable.

 

 

the only person who has been so thoroughly hostile is you. xzar_monty even agreed with OP on the basic point (literally "The OP definitely has a point"), and boeroer (whom you've also been picking at this thread) didn't say anything unreasonable and even extra-clarified his sentiment to you. whatever, maybe this is just an off day because the only person i'm seeing in this thread coming out fists-swinging is you.

 

As for the paradox you've mentioned: yep, it's absolutely delightful. And almost incomprehensible. Interestingly, this phenomenon can also be seen in fantasy literature: much of it is just staggeringly poor, umpteenth-generation Tolkien-derivative drivel. And then, every once in a while, when something spectacularly good appears (like Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, which is clearly fantasy but not only fantasy), its success is somewhat hampered by the fact that it doesn't follow the rules (like, what rules?).

I remember how friggin controversial it was when blizzard made their Paladin in D2 black, and when in warcraft night elves (*cough* their version of drow *cough*) were morally good instead of morally evil. It's weird how oddly unwilling-to-change the fantasy genre audience can sometimes be.

Edited February 6, 2019 by thelee

[Verde]

I certainly don't appreciate posters drawing the conclusion that TC has issues is his or her life when I've seen you all get upset at really minor stuff in this game. So if that makes me the bad guy, so be it. Really this topic should have been shut down when that was brought out.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Verde

[thelee]

I certainly don't appreciate posters drawing the conclusion that TC has issues is his or her life when I've seen you all get upset at really minor stuff in this game. So if that makes me the bad guy, so be it. Really this topic should have been shut down when that was brought out.

 

Seriously I think you need to work on your reading comprehension. No one is assuming OP of having mental health or life issues. Boeroer said something that had one meaning (which he explicitly clarified), and the only other follow up was speculation on what boeroer was saying (which was corrected when boeroer clarified it and only brought back up when you chose to quote it out of thread context).

 

I think I'm good and done here.

Edited February 6, 2019 by thelee

[xzar_monty]

 

I certainly don't appreciate posters drawing the conclusion that TC has issues is his or her life when I've seen you all get upset at really minor stuff in this game. So if that makes me the bad guy, so be it. Really this topic should have been shut down when that was brought out.

 

Seriously I think you need to work on your reading comprehension.

 

This. Very simply, this.

[Verde]

Boeroer's point was that if someone's emotional state is so affected by an issue in a computer game, they probably have difficulties with their life and should pay attention to it. It's a perfectly valid statement.

[Boeroer]

I completely understood everything you said. The same could be said bout spending most of, if not all, your free time on a board - being too deeply invested.

I do spend a lot of time on this board. But I don't get riled up while doing so. So - emotionally I don't seem to be too deeply invested here. I'm not sad if somebody attacks me personally, I'm not frustrated if people write utter nonsense. I just post a puckish reply and am happy.

 

I was also not suggesting that OP indeed has mental problems - but rather that he might not be as "sad" as he made it sound. And if (and only if) he's really sad about those few wrongly scripted MIG checks (and that's what it's all about!): that's not good. I don't think you can argue with that. I mean you surely can, but it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Boeroer

[Frak]

 For all I care you can do the Rumpelstiltskin dance until you feel better or drink a bottle of scotch to cope with the frustration.

 

I'm fairly certain this is the unofficial swedish national sport.

[Boeroer]

Drinking in Sweden is rather expensive as long as you don't distill your own blinding stuff. So maybe not. The dance on the other hand...

[Franknstein]

It's weird how oddly unwilling-to-change the fantasy genre audience can sometimes be.

 

I speculate, that it is because one has to relate to something that has been established before if it can't be related to something that can be found IRL. Like, one assumes, that kith in Eora have human-like physiology. They breathe, eat, have a heart, brain, liver e.t.c. and it all works the same way as IRL. That lead poisoning, or decapitation are lethal, and there are (lots) confirmations of that during the game. Gravity works the same – you trip, you fall. Water is wet. Acid burns. And than one gets introduced to the fantasy elements. A human attribute that governs the power of magic? How does one imagine something like that? By using an former established, and well described example of the similar. From a book, or another game. And this is than the "rule" of how stuff like that should work.

 

Hope that makes any sense? =)

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

for me, one of the great aspects of poe is that theres no 'magic' stat, and spellcasters can switch up their attributes like martial classes. an alpha strike nuke mage can emphasise might and perception, a control mage can run dex and intellect etc. its magic as an expression of the whole person, rather than of one discrete attribute/resource.

[wih]

OP wants to play a character with magic who is weak physically. It is bad that there are still checks that treat Might as a physical stat. However OP can just skip those faulty dialog options and pretend that they are not meant for their character. Roleplaying involves many things and deciding which dialog options make sense for your character is one of them.

[Mikeymoonshine]

I recall in the beta at one point might was replaced with strength and resolve controlled magic but it didn't work out well. I don't remember if that was their initial plan if it was maybe that's why some of the might checks are written like physical strength checks.

 

To be honest I don't know why they kept in so many stat checks when there is that whole skill system with multiple different skills just for checks. Athletics would cover these all. So yeah I agree that it's an annoying oversight that should be solved by now.

[asnjas]

How is this might check wrong? If might is both physical and metaphysical strength than the check is accurate cause carrying someone down a ship is a test of physical strength.

 

Two different interpretations of might and one was used. Because that interpretation doesnt match your character then there needs to be a problem?

 

I think the game has two interpretations of the aggressive disposition: cruel and merciless and the second is acting first/jumping to action. They are not the same and a charqcter can be based on one or the other. Is it a cause for conplaint if my chaotic good character that springs to action is given a cruel and merciless aggressive disposition option?

[rjshae]

Adapt.

[Ophiuchus]

Your sorcerous power is so great – you lend your arms inhuman strength! You bend that mundane physical reality with the true might! Yet things requiring specialized training and knowledge of the tricks of the trade, that cannot be brute-forced, elude your grasp, you'll have to train Athletics for that. Also, little known fact, aumaua and dwarves have an innate talent for sorcery!

Not gonna lie: I read that as a motivational speech you'd find in an anime.

[Boeroer]

How is this might check wrong? If might is both physical and metaphysical strength than the check is accurate cause carrying someone down a ship is a test of physical strength.

 

Two different interpretations of might and one was used. Because that interpretation doesnt match your character then there needs to be a problem?

 

I think the game has two interpretations of the aggressive disposition: cruel and merciless and the second is acting first/jumping to action. They are not the same and a charqcter can be based on one or the other. Is it a cause for conplaint if my chaotic good character that springs to action is given a cruel and merciless aggressive disposition option?

Don't know if it's "wrong", but the better way to do this would have been a check of Athletics, not MIG.

 

Because you can play a mighty (high MIG) yet physically weak (low Athletics) character. And then carrying somebody with your MIG is kind of weird. Also because Josh said at some point that this could be avoided with the new skillset. I mean there was a reason why we have many more of them on Deadfire compared to PoE.

 

Iirc the intention was to use the attributes as underlying base for certain mechanics but mainly the skills for dialogue/scripted checks. Implementing a MIG check where Athletics would be more appropriate is a mistake - albeit a minor one and understandable.

 

With the same argumentation you could ask why certain races or cultures get a MIG bonus or malus. You could say because they are ohysically stronger (and that's a part of MIG) it's ok that they receive a general bonus. Maybe if it was only Strength their bonus should be even higher... so an "averaged" bonus of +2/+1 etc. is ok? Or you leave MIG as is, give them a bonus/malus to CON and to Athletics and balance that out with some other skill bonuses/maluses. FOr example I'm sure an Orlan has advantages when it comes to stealth while an Aumaua has advantages when it comes to Intimidating. And so on...

[Yglika]

OP wants to play a character with magic who is weak physically. It is bad that there are still checks that treat Might as a physical stat. However OP can just skip those faulty dialog options and pretend that they are not meant for their character. Roleplaying involves many things and deciding which dialog options make sense for your character is one of them.

 

Sadly not. There are two (three in fact) inherent flaws with it.

 

1. There is now no way to act as mighty (meaning powerful in magic) mage in dialogs. Only as _physically mighty_ warrior.

 

2. I now can clearly see the game thinks my might stat is a physical feat. I can safely assume any NPC behavior towards me will be based on that and I will be perceived by NPCs as physically strong. This is something what irritates me most.

 

Bonus 3. Your suggestion is nice but does not work in reality. A mere existence of such options for my char ruins my immersion. It's like saying we can forget all stats and offer _all_ options in dialogs, because well... if people think some is not good for their char, they can just ignore it. :-P

[asnjas]

Am i missing something? That first event carrying the lady down from the boat is athletics check.

[Woopee]

It is kind of weird that physical strength and metaphysical strength are governed by the same stat. Like Yglika said, you can't be a weak mage with strong magic anymore. 

[Boeroer]

That I don't think is weird. It's an abstraction and it would work pretty well if checks would aim at Athletics and not MIG if it's about physical strength. 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Boeroer

[Jayd]

That I don't think is weird. It's an abstraction and it would work pretty well if checks would aim at Athletics and not MIG if it's about physical strength. 

It is weird because then it would technically be athletics that should govern how hard you can swing a sword. It's weird that you can have people deal huge blows with a morning star but can't lift a log or climb a rope. The root of the problem is that effectively swinging heavy objects requires athletic conditioning while casting spells presumably does not.

 

That said, I think it's something we ought to just overlook in order to enjoy the great balancing benefits it brings. Or, if that's impossible, head canon the fact that magic is physically taxing in this universe so people need strong bodies to channel powerful magic. (It would have been easy and nice if the developers had made this canon from the beginning so we could avoid these threads however many years later.)

Edited February 9, 2019 by Jayd