TURN BASED combat in Deadfire?!

[injurai]

I think it is a waste of their time and resources. Don't think it will make an appreeciable difference in income for Obsidian.

 

But let's see if the TB fans now argue for Larian following Obsidian's lead. I very much doubt it. D:OS2 is perfect as is, right? Only RTwP games need to be 'fixed' with TB mode.

 

Granted, it's easier to restrict a complex system into a turn-based one rather than going the other way around.

 

Personally I think it speaks to the nature of most turn-based systems though. They are fine when it's an elegant and simple rule set with emergent play like chess or go. But when it's a lot of complex systems that actually narrow you into a few optimal and correct actions, where the roles of different units further restrict the intended use. Then turn-based games become extra-bottle necked by the restriction on unit movement and positioning. No amount of neat environmental interactivity and combination of spells really impresses me because at the end of the day they are just different expressions of things that affect underlying numbers and values on the field.

 

It's why I love Advanced Wars and Into The Breach. Or even Civilization. Simpler positional mechanics with positional objectives. But I find X-Com, D:OS, and Banner Saga to be rote chores. Where position is necessary to protect your heath, and then forces you down a path of attack where the setup and arrangement of units with preordained roles narrows the players ability of choice.

 

I'm interested to see how one of the best RTwP games fares with these heavy shackles put upon it. I've always considered RTwP a far better system when dealing with very complex stat-value based systems where positioning is also important to play. JRPGs generally do better with their complex stat-value systems when they have little to no positioning, and instead are about balancing damage and defense from a numerical perspective.

[Franknstein]

AWESOME!!!

 

But I really have to see how's that work. So many questions. All the game mechanics had to be toppled! A-a-a-a!!!

[MaxQuest]

im curious how the attributes and abilities changed for this.

I'm also curious if attack time has any influence in this mode.

 

And what's the relation between recovery/reload time and time between character's turns. Does it work like initiative from HOMM Heroes of Might and Magic?

Or perhaps only the total action time is of importance for next character's turn, otherwise there could be problems with Bloodthirst, Tempest and such?

Edited January 23, 2019 by MaxQuest

[protopersona]

I'm really curious to know what havoc this is going to play with mods.

[bugarup]

It's why I love Advanced Wars and Into The Breach. Or even Civilization. Simpler positional mechanics with positional objectives. But I find X-Com, D:OS, and Banner Saga to be rote chores. Where position is necessary to protect your heath, and then forces you down a path of attack where the setup and arrangement of units with preordained roles narrows the players ability of choice.

 

I'm interested to see how one of the best RTwP games fares with these heavy shackles put upon it. I've always considered RTwP a far better system when dealing with very complex stat-value based systems where positioning is also important to play. JRPGs generally do better with their complex stat-value systems when they have little to no positioning, and instead are about balancing damage and defense from a numerical perspective.

 

Same here. I like what Civ does, but D:OS's system got really old really fast and I think I'm halfway into Numenera but still have no clue how its system works (and no wish whatsoever to try and understand it either, so I just leave AI to its own devices). Also, with all my undying love for F2 and F1 I cannot defend moments like when you sit and read half a book while all the 142 junkies of the Den shuffle to their new positions.

 

Though I will try the new mode, of course. Might be fun. Might actually make those few messy battles in "Seeker, Slayer, Surivor" much easier. 

[Frak]

Me, I dunno. I already run every battle on the slowest speed and plenty of pausing, so turn-based might be my bag. We'll see.

[mydnightscrivener]

Temple of Elemental Evil does D&D-style turn based the best and has yet to be toppled. We shall see. If POEII manages that level of engaging combat it will enter my top 10 RPGs of all time 

[Archaven]

 

im curious how the attributes and abilities changed for this.

I'm also curious if attack time has any influence in this mode.

 

And what's the relation between recovery/reload time and time between character's turns. Does it work like initiative from HOMM Heroes of Might and Magic?

Or perhaps only the total action time is of importance for next character's turn, otherwise there could be problems with Bloodthirst, Tempest and such?

Sorry for being off topic. But its great to meet someone who play homm

[Wormerine]

 

 

Sorry for being off topic. But its great to meet someone who play homm

Who doesn't plau homm?

 

Which reminds me I bought HoM&M3 on gog a while back, and still didn't play it. 

[draego]

 

im curious how the attributes and abilities changed for this.

I'm also curious if attack time has any influence in this mode.

 

And what's the relation between recovery/reload time and time between character's turns. Does it work like initiative from HOMM Heroes of Might and Magic?

Or perhaps only the total action time is of importance for next character's turn, otherwise there could be problems with Bloodthirst, Tempest and such?

 

 

Just saw the attributes on Cohh and they dont say anything different for turn based which is weird so Dexterity still says +3% action speed. Maybe they just arent finished are something but hopefully there is a mechanics explanation with the update tomorrow 

[protopersona]

Looks like the enemies resolve their turns rather quickly. Should help to keep the tedium down at least.

[thelee]

Me, I dunno. I already run every battle on the slowest speed and plenty of pausing, so turn-based might be my bag. We'll see.

 

I basically spam spacebar constantly, but there's still a pretty huge difference between rtwp and turn-based to me. I'll probably give it a try once just to see it myself.

 

I hope this really does help boost sales/attach rate a bit, since that's the justification for working on this feature.

Edited January 23, 2019 by thelee

[Cartoons Plural]

I think it is a waste of their time and resources. Don't think it will make an appreeciable difference in income for Obsidian.

 

But let's see if the TB fans now argue for Larian following Obsidian's lead. I very much doubt it. D:OS2 is perfect as is, right? Only RTwP games need to be 'fixed' with TB mode.

do you work for larian or what's up my dude

 

people whine about rtwp because its suddenly fashionable to do so

devs of rtwp game develop and release free turn based mode with late patch support

some dude with no avatar sneers about it

 

gamers turning into all the worst things about hipsters haha great to see

Edited January 23, 2019 by Cartoons Plural

[Saito Hikari]

 

I think it is a waste of their time and resources. Don't think it will make an appreeciable difference in income for Obsidian.

 

But let's see if the TB fans now argue for Larian following Obsidian's lead. I very much doubt it. D:OS2 is perfect as is, right? Only RTwP games need to be 'fixed' with TB mode.

do you work for larian or what's up my dude

 

people whine about rtwp because its suddenly fashionable to do so

devs of rtwp game develop and release free turn based mode with late patch support

some dude with no avatar sneers about it

 

gamers turning into all the worst things about hipsters haha great to see

 

 

Yeah, a lot of unnecessary asses showing up over all of this. What's hilarious is that someone in this thread or in a different one over sales talked about how the RTwP community was supposedly a mature community tolerant about turn-based mode, while supposedly the turn-based community was seen as unreasonably hostile towards RTwP.

 

The reaction to this news from a few people here and all over the mainstream gaming sites the past day has proven otherwise.

 

This gatekeeping over a genre that was already niche to begin with is stupid and ya'll should know better.

 

---

 

My number 1 question is figuring out how attacks of opportunity and engagement work in turn-based mode. Cohh's preview stream didn't tell me much and was honestly worrying with the final fight he did during the stream (enemies basically rushing past melee to target the archer in the back at the digsite, though to be fair he didn't pick up Xoti beforehand), but otherwise the conversion looks solid.

 

I read the article announcing turn-based mode, where Sawyer outlines his reasoning about how turn-based mode was rebalanced around concepts that don't see as much use in RTwP gameplay, such as knockback skills to re-position enemies for spells (as those are currently super finicky in normal gameplay). I'm hoping that disengagement attacks launched by player characters is among them (and that it'd be a key mechanic from stopping enemies from just going straight to your back line). Currently, enemies typically don't disengage from your melee for whatever reason, unless they have a skill that lets them move without taking an disengagement attack (and thus it makes gear/passives revolving around disengagement attacks rather useless/underwhelming).

 

It'd be interesting to see the difference in builds and tactics that arise from this.

 

(On a side note, I'm beginning to think that turn-based mode might be the ultimate argument for trying to raise the party limit back to 6, because it looks like the balance, at first glance, may otherwise stress having a Chanter in the party.)

Edited January 23, 2019 by Saito Hikari

[kanisatha]

 

I think it is a waste of their time and resources. Don't think it will make an appreeciable difference in income for Obsidian.

 

But let's see if the TB fans now argue for Larian following Obsidian's lead. I very much doubt it. D:OS2 is perfect as is, right? Only RTwP games need to be 'fixed' with TB mode.

 

Granted, it's easier to restrict a complex system into a turn-based one rather than going the other way around.

 

Personally I think it speaks to the nature of most turn-based systems though. They are fine when it's an elegant and simple rule set with emergent play like chess or go. But when it's a lot of complex systems that actually narrow you into a few optimal and correct actions, where the roles of different units further restrict the intended use. Then turn-based games become extra-bottle necked by the restriction on unit movement and positioning. No amount of neat environmental interactivity and combination of spells really impresses me because at the end of the day they are just different expressions of things that affect underlying numbers and values on the field.

 

It's why I love Advanced Wars and Into The Breach. Or even Civilization. Simpler positional mechanics with positional objectives. But I find X-Com, D:OS, and Banner Saga to be rote chores. Where position is necessary to protect your heath, and then forces you down a path of attack where the setup and arrangement of units with preordained roles narrows the players ability of choice.

 

I'm interested to see how one of the best RTwP games fares with these heavy shackles put upon it. I've always considered RTwP a far better system when dealing with very complex stat-value based systems where positioning is also important to play. JRPGs generally do better with their complex stat-value systems when they have little to no positioning, and instead are about balancing damage and defense from a numerical perspective.

Well put. The core beauty of PoE 1 and 2 is the tactical complexity and sophistication of their RTwP combat system. TB is a downgrading, a radical simplifying of that system. Combat in D:OS was the most mind-numbingly boring thing I have ever done with a computer, and that includes word processing, which is why I will not ever play D:OS2 even if the game is gifted to me.

[waltc]

I think it is a waste of their time and resources. Don't think it will make an appreeciable difference in income for Obsidian.

 

But let's see if the TB fans now argue for Larian following Obsidian's lead. I very much doubt it. D:OS2 is perfect as is, right? Only RTwP games need to be 'fixed' with TB mode.

 

*cough* CRPD with the Witcher series was the first software company to abandon the "take their money and run" Electronic-Arts business plan--Larian came right along behind them with EE versions for  D:OS and D:OS2...then definitive versions and so on.  (You didn't know that Larian released the Definitive Version of D:OS 2 at the end of August '18?)  InXile is doing it right now with BTIV (the upcoming patch will fundamentally change the game and make many, many improvements) and Bard's Tale Trilogy is still being worked on (BT3 has yet to ship) but I'll wager InXile has easily outsold the originals already by quite a margin--and the last game in the trilogy hasn't shipped nor has the legacy mode for all three BT titles.  What a great thing--they've taken good games of yore and made them great by continuing to work on and improve them.  You can bet it's put money in their pockets and will pay them dividends for years to come!  

 

Obsidian is actually late to the party, but better late than never!  What's a waste is abandoning games 6-8 months after shipping them--regardless of what they need, or how they might be improved to more closely match the developers' original plans and goals for the game.  What polishing, refining, and improving your games will do for a company is ensure that those titles keep returning income for many years after development ceased--D: OS 2 still regularly tops the Steam sales list--and it's all because of all the extra work and time that went into the Definitive Edition.  CDPR made a fortune on their Witcher games after establishing a solid reputation for W1 and W2 through their constant refinement of those games--which are still selling today.  The Software graveyard is full of games that were abandoned long before it was time--that nobody today remembers, etc.

[Sayne]

I don't mind them implementing this if it brings in more players, but I hope this doesn't convince Obsidian to abandon RTwP for any future titles.

I hate hate hate turn-based combat.  It feels silly and contrived and artificial, while RTwP feels fluid and dynamic.  It's what I've been use to for literally 20 years playing Baldur's Gate (2) and its successors.  I hope Obsidian sticks with what they know, and what POE was brought into existence to emulate and pay homage to: the Infinity Engine style of classics like Baldur's Gate 2.

If they develop it as optional, that's fine!  Just don't replace the classic Infinity Engine combat, please. 

[the_dog_days]

 

I think it is a waste of their time and resources. Don't think it will make an appreeciable difference in income for Obsidian.

 

But let's see if the TB fans now argue for Larian following Obsidian's lead. I very much doubt it. D:OS2 is perfect as is, right? Only RTwP games need to be 'fixed' with TB mode.

 

InXile is doing it right now with BTIV (the upcoming patch will fundamentally change the game and make many, many improvements) and Bard's Tale Trilogy is still being worked on (BT3 has yet to ship) but I'll wager InXile has easily outsold the originals already by quite a margin--and the last game in the trilogy hasn't shipped nor has the legacy mode for all three BT titles.

 

 

InXile's mostly going to patch in features promised in the kickstarter. Just like they did with Torment. 

Edited January 24, 2019 by the_dog_days

[Franknstein]

To increase sales a co-op mode would do better than a TB-mode, I say. But with the TB-mode (if it is done good) we now get two different games in one!

[anameforobsidian]

I think they'll have to change the system pretty radically to accommodate TB mode.  The good news is this might clarify speed.  The bad news is it might turn out like Arcanum's combat system.  Arcanum was a fantastic narrative and setting welded to a really janky world-map.

[morhilane]

 

 

Not entirely true, turn-based had already been proven viable for bigger budget games by XCOM: Enemy Unknown in 2012.

 

I almost mentioned it, but then didn't not because I personally consider that game a strategy game and not a RPG and TB never went out of fashion in that genre.

 

I don't remember a western turn-based RPG reach mainstream popularity like Divinity Original Sin 2 did. Even TB JRPGs seems to have gained in popularity in the last few years (or at least people talks more about them), although that might be helped by all the Steam PC ports.

 

Actually turn based jRPGs were always huge. Fire Emblem series, Final Fantasy Tactics, Vandal Hearts - just to name a few old school popular gems. I'd say that these kind of jRPGs are actually less popular now, if we're talking mainstream only. Other than Fire Emblem, which is still as strong as ever, only Super Robot Wars comes to mind. Maybe Disgaea too.

 

 

I didn't say that tb JRPGs were not popular, I said they gained in popularity recently. They aren't just played by console weeb anymore. The mainstream gaming websites went gaga over Persona 5 and I don't remember anyone talking about Persona 4/3 in 2008 when it released for comparison. The RPG forums I hang out at used to be dominated by western RPGs (old school or action doesn't matter), since a few years ago 50% of the discussions and news posts are about JRPGs (not just TB) and the posters haven't changed.

[Wormerine]

I think they'll have to change the system pretty radically to accommodate TB mode.  The good news is this might clarify speed.  The bad news is it might turn out like Arcanum's combat system.  Arcanum was a fantastic narrative and setting welded to a really janky world-map.

We will see. I am sure there will be issues. But the gameplay shown yesterday on CohhCarnage's streamed looked excellent. Technically it seems to be implimented really well, and coming from D&D the system is a good fit for turn based. Balancing it to make it fun is a challenge but it seems like they did put their hearts into it.

[Ethics Gradient]

We will see. I am sure there will be issues. But the gameplay shown yesterday on CohhCarnage's streamed looked excellent. Technically it seems to be implimented really well, and coming from D&D the system is a good fit for turn based. Balancing it to make it fun is a challenge but it seems like they did put their hearts into it.

I agree!  There will certainly be a little bit of an adjustment to understand the way old stats map to their turn-based equivalents, but what Cohh showcased yesterday was extremely playable and smooth.

 

I think Josh Sawyer already mentioned that there are a few encounters that don't quite work as well in Turn-Based as in RTwP, but it's pretty surprising how well Deadfire handled such a fundamental change in gameplay; and it did so while making it look like it was a feature that's been around since release.

[kanisatha]

 

I think it is a waste of their time and resources. Don't think it will make an appreeciable difference in income for Obsidian.

 

But let's see if the TB fans now argue for Larian following Obsidian's lead. I very much doubt it. D:OS2 is perfect as is, right? Only RTwP games need to be 'fixed' with TB mode.

 

*cough* CRPD with the Witcher series was the first software company to abandon the "take their money and run" Electronic-Arts business plan--Larian came right along behind them with EE versions for  D:OS and D:OS2...then definitive versions and so on.  (You didn't know that Larian released the Definitive Version of D:OS 2 at the end of August '18?)  InXile is doing it right now with BTIV (the upcoming patch will fundamentally change the game and make many, many improvements) and Bard's Tale Trilogy is still being worked on (BT3 has yet to ship) but I'll wager InXile has easily outsold the originals already by quite a margin--and the last game in the trilogy hasn't shipped nor has the legacy mode for all three BT titles.  What a great thing--they've taken good games of yore and made them great by continuing to work on and improve them.  You can bet it's put money in their pockets and will pay them dividends for years to come!  

 

Obsidian is actually late to the party, but better late than never!  What's a waste is abandoning games 6-8 months after shipping them--regardless of what they need, or how they might be improved to more closely match the developers' original plans and goals for the game.  What polishing, refining, and improving your games will do for a company is ensure that those titles keep returning income for many years after development ceased--D: OS 2 still regularly tops the Steam sales list--and it's all because of all the extra work and time that went into the Definitive Edition.  CDPR made a fortune on their Witcher games after establishing a solid reputation for W1 and W2 through their constant refinement of those games--which are still selling today.  The Software graveyard is full of games that were abandoned long before it was time--that nobody today remembers, etc.

What the heck are you talking about? Please show me where Larian has added a RTwP mode for either D:OS game. I was clearly asking if Larian will be following Obsidian's example by providing a RTwP mode for D:OS2.

 

Oh, and I own all those games you've listed except for D:OS2. No need to be patronizing.

[Manveru123]

 

 

 

Not entirely true, turn-based had already been proven viable for bigger budget games by XCOM: Enemy Unknown in 2012.

 

I almost mentioned it, but then didn't not because I personally consider that game a strategy game and not a RPG and TB never went out of fashion in that genre.

 

I don't remember a western turn-based RPG reach mainstream popularity like Divinity Original Sin 2 did. Even TB JRPGs seems to have gained in popularity in the last few years (or at least people talks more about them), although that might be helped by all the Steam PC ports.

 

Actually turn based jRPGs were always huge. Fire Emblem series, Final Fantasy Tactics, Vandal Hearts - just to name a few old school popular gems. I'd say that these kind of jRPGs are actually less popular now, if we're talking mainstream only. Other than Fire Emblem, which is still as strong as ever, only Super Robot Wars comes to mind. Maybe Disgaea too.

 

 

I didn't say that tb JRPGs were not popular, I said they gained in popularity recently. They aren't just played by console weeb anymore. The mainstream gaming websites went gaga over Persona 5 and I don't remember anyone talking about Persona 4/3 in 2008 when it released for comparison. The RPG forums I hang out at used to be dominated by western RPGs (old school or action doesn't matter), since a few years ago 50% of the discussions and news posts are about JRPGs (not just TB) and the posters haven't changed.

 

But Persona 5 is a different kind of a game. The characters don't move, there is no tactical grid or anything, the combat is purely ATB based, which is the most common jRPG system ever. I agree that the game was huge and it is all kinds of amazing, but it's not really an example of a turn based tactical RPG.