Theorycrafting Thoughts On New Classes (Patch 4.0 Beta)

[Boeroer]

If you have somebody in the party who can prevent death (Priest, Shieldbearer) it's definitely a good thing.

[gkathellar]

I do wish Priest of Woedica and Steel Garrote weren't attached to like ... Woedica. They both seem pretty awesome, but this is just one of those things where I can't get over the fluff.

[Boeroer]

Woedica ist about justice and oathkeeping and stuff. And while her favorite dispositions are cruel and rational in this case I believe that "cruel" should be understood as "merciless". Because it's paired with rational it doesn't sound like "unnecessarily cruel".

Edited December 20, 2018 by Boeroer

[Clerith]

Woedica was a lot more interesting in PoE1 before we met the burned, arrogant, spiteful shrew in person in Deadfire.

[AndreaColombo]

before we met the burned, arrogant, spiteful shrew in person in Deadfire.

 

You've just described the entire Engwithan pantheon.

[guildwriter]

Dunno, Wael seems fairly chill.  And I don't mind Eothas either.  Hylea is more of an airhead.  The rest yes.

[InsaneCommander]

Woedica ist about justice and oathkeeping and stuff. And while her favorite dispositions are cruel and rational in this case I believe that "cruel" should be understood as "merciless". Because it's paired with rational it's doesn't sound like "unnecessarily cruel".

 

Very good point. Aedyr would be a mess if her priest were truly cruel.

 

before we met the burned, arrogant, spiteful shrew in person in Deadfire.

 

You've just described the entire Engwithan pantheon.

 

I hope in PoE3 we can meet them again. And teach them a lesson.

[AndreaColombo]

And I don't mind Eothas either.

 

You mean the Machiavellian psychopath who invaded a whole country to impose his view of the world on everybody? And when that failed, he inhabited an adra statue, stomped around the Deadfire as a walking biawac killing hundreds in his wake, and put all kith and gods on a timer by destroying the Wheel? You don't mind that guy?

[TheWeaver]

 

And I don't mind Eothas either.

 

You mean the Machiavellian psychopath who invaded a whole country to impose his view of the world on everybody? And when that failed, he inhabited an adra statue, stomped around the Deadfire as a walking biawac killing hundreds in his wake, and put all kith and gods on a timer by destroying the Wheel? You don't mind that guy?

 

 

But he has such a soothing voice...

[Aranduin]

We need a good deicide in PoE3.

[guildwriter]

You mean the Machiavellian psychopath who invaded a whole country to impose his view of the world on everybody? And when that failed, he inhabited an adra statue, stomped around the Deadfire as a walking biawac killing hundreds in his wake, and put all kith and gods on a timer by destroying the Wheel? You don't mind that guy?

 

This is already going massively off topic so I'm going to expand once and then drop it after this.

 

Eothas' goals have a timescale of eternity.  The issues he's trying to resolve literally affect the foundations of how Eora work from a metaphysical/cultural/etc. standpoint.  There is no way to make that kind of massive change without causing enormous harm to a vast amount of people in all sorts of ways.  A better analog to his character would be Dr. Manhattan from the "Watchman" comics.  It's not that he's a psychopath, it's more that at the scale he works at with the tools he has, there is no room for being humane in his actions.  What are 200+ dead at Hasango compared to the infinity of lives chained in servitude to manufactured Gods without any say in the matter?  And who actively oppress the truth and are willing to commit crimes on the level of wiping entire countries out and destroying entire continents to keep their tyranny in place?  Compared to what Ondra or Woedica have done, Eothas barely registers.

 

Another way to think of it is that surgery forces us to damage the body in order to reach the goal.  

 

And keep in mind that he didn't even have the intention of imposing his view.  BoW revealed he was trying to show people the truth of how the world works.  But the Gods wouldn't let him show that because it would show everyone what they really are.  There is no conversation.  If you speak the truth of how Eora works down to the bones you get wiped out.  Remember that the Wheel does not have to exist and is a construct perpetuated by the Engwithians to ensure the longevity of the Gods they created.  It's also worth noting Eothas' knew the Godshammer was there but chose to advance forward anyways knowing it would end everything.  Think about the reasons why he decided to do so and what that says about his character compared to everyone else.

 

Compared to the Principi or the RDC or really any of the other factions in the Deadfire, Eothas is probably the only one I consider doing the right thing.  All of the other factions have plenty of choices as how to conduct themselves.  The Principi don't have to be pillaging, murdering, rapacious "gentlemen of leisure" for personal pleasure.  Neither do the RDC have to use a ****tail of colonization, forced cultural assimilation, and black ops tactics to attain their goals.  Eothas is the only one who has little recourse in what he can do to free the world.

Edited December 20, 2018 by guildwriter

[Aranduin]

The only good god is a exterminate god

[Verde]

 

 

And I don't mind Eothas either.

You mean the Machiavellian psychopath who invaded a whole country to impose his view of the world on everybody? And when that failed, he inhabited an adra statue, stomped around the Deadfire as a walking biawac killing hundreds in his wake, and put all kith and gods on a timer by destroying the Wheel? You don't mind that guy?

But he has such a soothing voice...

Lol came here to say this

[HoopleDoople]

 

You mean the Machiavellian psychopath who invaded a whole country to impose his view of the world on everybody? And when that failed, he inhabited an adra statue, stomped around the Deadfire as a walking biawac killing hundreds in his wake, and put all kith and gods on a timer by destroying the Wheel? You don't mind that guy?

 

And keep in mind that he didn't even have the intention of imposing his view.  BoW revealed he was trying to show people the truth of how the world works.  But the Gods wouldn't let him show that because it would show everyone what they really are.  There is no conversation.  If you speak the truth of how Eora works down to the bones you get wiped out.  Remember that the Wheel does not have to exist and is a construct perpetuated by the Engwithians to ensure the longevity of the Gods they created.  It's also worth noting Eothas' knew the Godshammer was there but chose to advance forward anyways knowing it would end everything.  Think about the reasons why he decided to do so and what that says about his character compared to everyone else.

 

 

I just have one point to add to this. Consider the following from Josh Sawyer:

 

 

The Wheel is a natural phenomenon that was regulated so heavily by the Engwithans that the destruction of the regulating machines does not return it to its natural state, but leaves it effectively broken. Berath uses the analogy of a river that has been so extensively dammed for so long that removing the dams cannot possibly restore the river’s original, natural flow. I.e., the machines at Ukaizo are now (at the time of Deadfire) integral to the Wheel’s process of taking souls into the Beyond. When they are broken, the natural process cannot resume on its own because it has been subverted for over two thousand years."

 

The actions of Eothas are well intentioned but extremely dangerous. The wheel was unfortunately perverted by the Engwithans to sustain the gods they created, but a perverted wheel is very likely preferable to no wheel. The fundamental question is if the people and gods of Eora are willing and able to restore the wheel to its natural state (or some other modified, functional state).

 

It's also worth noting that Eothas is the god of light, redemption, hope, and rebirth. It's entirely possible his nature makes him overly hopeful in his plans to redeem Eora and give its populace back its "true" rebirth. If this was the real world and not a video game, I'd think it would be just as likely that the shock of Eothas breaking the wheel would fracture the people of Eora rather than unite them in a common purpose.

Edited December 20, 2018 by HoopleDoople

[Frog Man]

This is a cool ass video game

[guildwriter]

So Forbidden Fist got the damage tick fixed.  Here are what the numbers look like now at 4 stacks:

 

 
Far more reasonable than it used to be.  It seems Obsidian solved the bug about how the damage tick gained bonus damage.  So I'd say the ability is usable now.  
 
I still feel the subclass and ability is rather mediocre.  46.7 raw damage per 3 seconds is still a lot (that's with Voidward equipped) especially when the gain is still not that great.  Unless there is a way to self inflict debuffs and lose them quickly over and over.  I still feel the ability needs a buff somehow right now.

Edited December 21, 2018 by guildwriter

[Gregorovich]

I still feel the subclass and ability is rather mediocre.  46.7 raw damage per 3 seconds is still a lot (that's with Voidward equipped) especially when the gain is still not that great.  Unless there is a way to self inflict debuffs and lose them quickly over and over.  I still feel the ability needs a buff somehow right now.

I agree that it's still mediocre. Could be effective against Bosses with no Con affliction immunity.

 

Voidward? As I understood Forbidden Fist ability depends on your unarmed damage and that's why your PL, so it doesn't matter which weapon you carry. Am I wrong?

[guildwriter]

Voidward is a ring that gives you -25% Raw Damage taken and +2 Corrode Armor.  You're thinking of Voidwheel, the 2H sword.

[Gregorovich]

Voidward is a ring that gives you -25% Raw Damage taken and +2 Corrode Armor. You're thinking of Voidwheel, the 2H sword.

Sorry, I'm ill, so my mind's a bit unclear

[Frak]

As I understand the intended mechanic of Forbidden Fist, you want to use it with 1 or 2 stacks (and let them dissipitate for wounds and healing) through prolonged fights, where more stacking is for burst periods.

[MaxQuest]

^ Forbidden Fist stacking damage bonus is really small compared to the downsides.

 

During the most of the fight you don't actually want to stack it. With the exceptions of:

- when you have enough wounds and want to finish that last enemy and end combat.

- you really need that Enfeeble on a second target.

 

---

Btw, had 10 minutes to quickly check a few things with Blood Mage.

- might as was already mentioned influences damage taken. Lower might - less damage.

- voidward works, and reduces damage taken by 25% as per tooltip. Two voidwards - don't stack.

- copperhelm - spell damage reduction does NOT apply to Blood Sacrifice self damage.

- defender stance - does reduce the self damage.

- death's maw helm - does reduce the self damage. But it looks that when an enemy dies, you get the bonus for a limited time only.

- cadhu scalth shield (luminous harmony) (-5% damage taken -> -10% damage taken at 20 metaphysics) - seems to also reduce the self damage (but better test it again).

 

Some damage-reduction effects like food, drugs, buffs do not stack.

So far managed to reduce Blood Sacrifice from 63 self damage (tier3) on Aloth (lvl 16, 10 MIG) to 22 (tier3) after lowering his MIG to 3, and using the effects above.

Edited December 21, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Lamppost in Winter]

... it occurs to me that Tactician has party anti-synergy with Streetfighter. It'd be one thing if the two subclasses didn't function properly on the same character, but as it is they don't function properly on the same team. That seems wrong. Party members need not work well together, but I feel like their abilities shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

 

I like the thought of the Tactician spending all their time coming up with a brilliant plan which the Streetfighter immediately ruins

[Frak]

[Verde]

So how would you guys tier the new classes?

Edited December 21, 2018 by Verde

[thelee]

So how would you guys tier the new classes?

 

My attempt:

 

high tier: tactician, blood mage

balanced tier: everyone else

wtf tier: forbidden fist like what the heck

 

edit - if anyone has figured out how to metagame the forbidden fist please let me know. i suspect it's mostly just an underpowered monk that can occasionally enfeeble an enemy for free. which i mean sure ok that's alright, but i'd rather just roll a normal-ish monk.

Edited December 21, 2018 by thelee