Enjoyment.

[Tawmis]

I enjoyed Pillars of Eternity II, good enough. It had open seas, great sea shanties when the crew was in a good mood. Fun little areas to explore.

 

But there was something that felt off. And if I was asked to say what, I struggle to explain what it is.

 

When I first played Pillars of Eternity (the first one), it took me a bit to get into it. At first I was just going through the motions, because I felt completely lost (and I wasn't sure if it was because it wasn't me understanding something) or because the character was also at a loss. The first Pillars of Eternity feels like you're starting on the second game, at the beginning. But it doesn't take long for that to change - I was suddenly knee deep in lore and obsessed with the game. I beat it three times, different difficulties, different choices, keeping different party members with me.

 

While I enjoyed Pillars of Eternity II, start to finish; it didn't pull me in like the first one did. I beat it the first time, and started a second play through with an entirely different race and class, and was making different choices (siding this time with some darker choices), but it didn't hold me. I got as far as the bath houses, and stopped there on my second play through. I am not sure what's missing, but I feel like something is? Maybe it's the idea of having (because I am obsessive) to explore all of the oceans (I decided not to use the "achievement" unlock to have the seas already set with the fog of war removed). Maybe it's because after I got the first expansion, I couldn't easily find where I was supposed to go (where as on Pillars of Eternity, the first one, a new spot appears easily identifiable on the map).

 

What are your thoughts?

 

[uuuhhii]

poe1 have a bleak and cold atmosphere

deadfire does not

deadfire have relentless and ruthless struggle of factions and a much easier to understand combat system

and neketaka are so much better then defiance bay

[bringingyouthefuture]

Hmm, maybe because the lore is already set and the world isn't as new?  I think they did a pretty good job of making the interactions available varied to keep it fresh and enough to discover to keep it interesting.  Also, the first game did a pretty good job of keeping you on your toes as you discovered more of the plot - and not so sure how much I agree with this but Deadfire has a heavy element of exploration on top of the plot that can pull you away from the main storyline - almost like the world exploration competes with the plot?

 

I have read reviews that have stated the best part of the game is the exploration, but I like both - way more replayability in Deadfire for me than the first.

[Wormerine]

I feel ya. For me, personally, it comes to the destination not being as satisfying as in PoE1. I believe Deadfire to be a superior game in gameplay, worldbuilding, pacing, quest design and storytelling, but story (and as an extension: characters) itself didn’t engage me nearly as much.

[Tigranes]

From your description, it's impossible to say why you feel that way.

 

For me, it's pretty simple: Deadfire's writing is markedly worse than POE1 (and POE1 itself isn't one of Obsidian's best either). It's more the free exploration, looting, pillaging, tactical challenge that keeps you going, and not really a sense of exploring a cohesive world with thought-provoking problems and wonderfully strange locales.

 

I mean, I really enjoy being a traveling murderhobo, and I like Deadfire - it just means I'm not looking forward to another episode of the 'gods' filming their next B-grade daytime sitcom.

Edited October 2, 2018 by Tigranes

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

The pacing of the game is off. 

 

The combat system is enjoyable and you can do some fun things with it, but combined together with the semi-open world design the game's is striving hard to achieve it comes short. It's a no rest fest all the way through. Think of it that way, it doesn't challenge you to choose your encounters and manage resources.

 

In the first game a good number it things were left more subtle--thus allowing your imagination to fill the gaps, and there were details upon details left for you to discover, whereas the second game is quite anxious to present to you a bit too much too quickly and even breaks the 4th wall on numerous occasions doing that. I think there generally is less developer restraint in the design of Deadfire.

 

Some of the classes converge when in endgame in terms of what they can do(speaking power level here). That takes some of the RPG element away. Combined with the no-rest policy it definitely feels off. There should be more defined differences between various builds. Some of the items are too strong, while others barely get used at all. Too many consumables which feel watered down and very few that stand out. Too many encounters feel generic and not really involving once characters reach end level. Not too much strategy over all. Not too much variation in the enemies you encounter, as well. 

 

Despite the no rock-paper-scissors policy, the game ironically ends up quite deep into that territory.

 

All in all, Deadfire is not a bad game by all accounts, but it does play liberally with quite a number if ideas and it clearly doesn't always work.

 

I just want to add that I am the kind of guy who'd play this game even if it were in full-2D and without an ounce of voice-acting .   

[house2fly]

The writing is definitely a step down. It's trying much too hard to be Bioware, and I don't mean sjw stuff which I don't particularly care about, I mean everyone being a wisecracking **** head. You could see them going this way in the white March, so it's not like it's a surprise. The DLC is better written so far at least, and the sense of humour is a lot more my speed

[house2fly]

I will say, for all that the game is trying to be a crowd pleaser I at least respect the ways in which it's clearly its own thing. People complain about the ending, but it's done the way it is for reasons other than trying to make everyone happy- almost, dare I say, a creative vision. It would have been easy for them to do a main quest with a big satisfying ending where you beat the bad guy and then spend the post-game sailing around in your boat exploring the rest of the world, and a lot more people would have preferred that

[Tigranes]

I'm OK with more light-hearted tone, but they could have really worked with the rest of what they had - the pirate themes, the colonial tensions, the seas and sailing. NPCs mocking each other over their accents and their ludicrous cultural ticks, party members constantly vomiting and whatnot. Instead we just get some BG-style banter that doesn't hold a candle to Minsc and Jan.

 

(It's funny how Minsc and Jan remain the gold standard, because they were one-dimensional trick ponies of the kind that your DM would throw at you on a whim in a good P&P session. Same goes for HK47. But they had a schtick and it was a funny schtick.)

Edited October 2, 2018 by Tigranes

[DozingDragon]

Generally, the moment to moment gameplay in Deadfire is top notch, and overall a marked improvement over PoE. There are also some great quests, like Arkemyr’s Manor, Fort Deadlight, and the whole Gullet and Old City line.

 

Beyond that, I have mentioned before that I think that Deadfire suffers narratively from being spread too thin between four major factions, even more minor factions, an overarching plot that concerns the gods of Eora, and establishing the character of the Deadfire Archipelago itself. It does not help that the game’s final act is relatively brief, and therefore, feels less satisfying in that regard than PoE. In terms of how time was budgeted during development, perhaps cutting one faction and the companion relationship system could have allowed more time for a detailed writing pass to bring the rest of the major quest lines to be on the same level as the game’s highlights.

 

I still think Deadfire is a better game than PoE, and so far, the DLC has been great, perhaps due to the narrower focus.

[Verde]

PoE2 doesnt react well to your decisions. The world doesn't change all that much and NPS and companions seem to be oblivious at times.

 

I think the game does a great job of adventuring, but the game can be a bit shallow. However the DLC is ridiculously good and def adds the narrative spark. Overall I will say PoE2 is a very fun game to play, much more than PoE1, which had a great story but super clunky encounters and difficulty spikes.

Edited October 2, 2018 by Verde

[Selky]

A certain someone wanted more control over Deadfire's story than they had in the first game. They thought they could do better, and this was the result.

[InsaneCommander]

The writing is definitely a step down. It's trying much too hard to be Bioware, and I don't mean sjw stuff which I don't particularly care about, I mean everyone being a wisecracking **** head. You could see them going this way in the white March, so it's not like it's a surprise. The DLC is better written so far at least, and the sense of humour is a lot more my speed

 

I'm having a lot of fun in Seeker, Slayer, Survivor. Plenty of funny moments with the sidekicks and some adventurers you find there.

[bugarup]

Well, you can also be growing old and finding out that things are less enjoyable than before; or mayhap it's fall, your brain gets less vitamin D and does not produce enough dopamine thus making things less enjoyable, or you can just ignore the nonsense I wrote here because, dude, the only person who knows why you do not enjoy something is, well, you.

 

And while I'm here discussing extremely subjective issues as if they were objective facts or sh†t -- I have this impression from some posts that people kinda think that Obsidian strayed from the trite formula just to spite them or something. When, you know, they might just be creative people. And creative people tend to want to create something new rather than rehash the same orcs and goblins and dragons and owlbears and 3.5 rules for the umpteenth time.  Guess it sucks if all you ever wanted is "moar Baldurz Gate" but don't hold the studio accountable for not writing within your comfort zone -- because they have no obligation to do so.

 

Me? I'm giddy about Deadfire.    Like, I just reinstalled "Drakensang", vaguely remembering that I kind of liked the system but got bored into ennui of existential level by the story although could not remember why -- then intro starts -- "God created dragons...stereotypical dragon things happened....elves being stereotypical elves...dwarves blah blah blahdy-blah dwarfish things..." -- and I'm all "yeaaaaaaaawn. That's why."

 

 

 

[house2fly]

A certain someone wanted more control over Deadfire's story than they had in the first game. They thought they could do better, and this was the result.

the person who wrote the first games story left the company, which probably had a bigger impact

[Tawmis]

poe1 have a bleak and cold atmosphere

deadfire does not

deadfire have relentless and ruthless struggle of factions and a much easier to understand combat system

and neketaka are so much better then defiance bay

 

I think some of it is that POE exploring is on land; it changed quite a bit. POEII exploring, a lot of it is the open sea; where it doesn't change much. You find the occasional island, but then it's just your face, unless there's a specific encounter. Like even searching the buildings, it just says, "You find XYZ. Continue searching?" (As far as I can tell there was no ill effect of continuing your search until you found nothing else). So this lack of seeing my characters, I think takes me out of the game, as they're exploring islands in this method.

 

 

Hmm, maybe because the lore is already set and the world isn't as new?  I think they did a pretty good job of making the interactions available varied to keep it fresh and enough to discover to keep it interesting.  Also, the first game did a pretty good job of keeping you on your toes as you discovered more of the plot - and not so sure how much I agree with this but Deadfire has a heavy element of exploration on top of the plot that can pull you away from the main storyline - almost like the world exploration competes with the plot?

 

I have read reviews that have stated the best part of the game is the exploration, but I like both - way more replayability in Deadfire for me than the first.

 

That's actually a good point about world exploration competing with the game play. I think because POEII did feel much bigger (could be because the ships sail slower). Don't get me wrong; there were a lot of aspects of the world exploring I did like. I did enjoy being able to name a few islands I discovered whatever I wanted to. That's kind of a fun thing. And I liked that you would find resources in the water too.

 

I have a few new games (and old games) I've not played yet; but I plan on diving back into POEII (probably with a new character, since the replay character, I wasn't feeling).

 

 

I feel ya. For me, personally, it comes to the destination not being as satisfying as in PoE1. I believe Deadfire to be a superior game in gameplay, worldbuilding, pacing, quest design and storytelling, but story (and as an extension: characters) itself didn’t engage me nearly as much.

 

For me, I think the pacing is what was off. I thought the idea (the giant statue/living god) was a cool idea, and a great build off of the first game. But it seemed like that was extremely urgent - but then you spend your time exploring the whole world before going back and thinking, "Oh yeah, I need to save the world now that I have explored every corner of it."

 

 

From your description, it's impossible to say why you feel that way.

 

For me, it's pretty simple: Deadfire's writing is markedly worse than POE1 (and POE1 itself isn't one of Obsidian's best either). It's more the free exploration, looting, pillaging, tactical challenge that keeps you going, and not really a sense of exploring a cohesive world with thought-provoking problems and wonderfully strange locales.

 

I mean, I really enjoy being a traveling murderhobo, and I like Deadfire - it just means I'm not looking forward to another episode of the 'gods' filming their next B-grade daytime sitcom.

 

I know my description makes it difficult to see why I'd feel the way I do - and that's why I said I can't nail down what's wrong. Because I loved Deadfire, make no mistake. But if compared to the first Pillars of Eternity, it doesn't come close.

 

 

The pacing of the game is off. 

 

The combat system is enjoyable and you can do some fun things with it, but combined together with the semi-open world design the game's is striving hard to achieve it comes short. It's a no rest fest all the way through. Think of it that way, it doesn't challenge you to choose your encounters and manage resources.

 

In the first game a good number it things were left more subtle--thus allowing your imagination to fill the gaps, and there were details upon details left for you to discover, whereas the second game is quite anxious to present to you a bit too much too quickly and even breaks the 4th wall on numerous occasions doing that. I think there generally is less developer restraint in the design of Deadfire.

 

Some of the classes converge when in endgame in terms of what they can do(speaking power level here). That takes some of the RPG element away. Combined with the no-rest policy it definitely feels off. There should be more defined differences between various builds. Some of the items are too strong, while others barely get used at all. Too many consumables which feel watered down and very few that stand out. Too many encounters feel generic and not really involving once characters reach end level. Not too much strategy over all. Not too much variation in the enemies you encounter, as well. 

 

Despite the no rock-paper-scissors policy, the game ironically ends up quite deep into that territory.

 

All in all, Deadfire is not a bad game by all accounts, but it does play liberally with quite a number if ideas and it clearly doesn't always work.

 

I just want to add that I am the kind of guy who'd play this game even if it were in full-2D and without an ounce of voice-acting .   

 

I think this sums up nicely what I was trying to say.

 

 

The writing is definitely a step down. It's trying much too hard to be Bioware, and I don't mean sjw stuff which I don't particularly care about, I mean everyone being a wisecracking **** head. You could see them going this way in the white March, so it's not like it's a surprise. The DLC is better written so far at least, and the sense of humour is a lot more my speed

 

See, for me - the party members didn't seem as fleshed out in Deadfire. Maybe because I didn't engage with them enough; but I explored the entire game, all the corners, everything, maxed out my levels before going to finish the game. So I feel like I engaged, gave gifts, as much as I could.

 

 

I will say, for all that the game is trying to be a crowd pleaser I at least respect the ways in which it's clearly its own thing. People complain about the ending, but it's done the way it is for reasons other than trying to make everyone happy- almost, dare I say, a creative vision. It would have been easy for them to do a main quest with a big satisfying ending where you beat the bad guy and then spend the post-game sailing around in your boat exploring the rest of the world, and a lot more people would have preferred that

 

I think the main problem is that from the start - the first (main) quest that you get is "world ending." So why would you do anything else other than immediately chase after him?

 

So all the little quests that you do in between, are not logical.

 

 

Generally, the moment to moment gameplay in Deadfire is top notch, and overall a marked improvement over PoE. There are also some great quests, like Arkemyr’s Manor, Fort Deadlight, and the whole Gullet and Old City line.

 

Beyond that, I have mentioned before that I think that Deadfire suffers narratively from being spread too thin between four major factions, even more minor factions, an overarching plot that concerns the gods of Eora, and establishing the character of the Deadfire Archipelago itself. It does not help that the game’s final act is relatively brief, and therefore, feels less satisfying in that regard than PoE. In terms of how time was budgeted during development, perhaps cutting one faction and the companion relationship system could have allowed more time for a detailed writing pass to bring the rest of the major quest lines to be on the same level as the game’s highlights.

 

I still think Deadfire is a better game than PoE, and so far, the DLC has been great, perhaps due to the narrower focus.

 

Oh, the quests are great - in between. I agree. As for the DLC, I have it - but not played it yet. I loaded POEII after installing the DLC and could not tell where to go. I think I sailed around for a moment, but then got side tracked and never found where the Beast of Winter resides.

 

 

PoE2 doesnt react well to your decisions. The world doesn't change all that much and NPS and companions seem to be oblivious at times.

 

I think the game does a great job of adventuring, but the game can be a bit shallow. However the DLC is ridiculously good and def adds the narrative spark. Overall I will say PoE2 is a very fun game to play, much more than PoE1, which had a great story but super clunky encounters and difficulty spikes.

 

I think POE1 was considerably more difficult than POEII. Off the top of my head, the woman in the swamp with the two dragons and then dragon at the bottom of the 15th floor dungeon (of your keep) are two memorable fights that were insanely difficult for me. I did beat them and I felt super accomplished when I did - but it took a few tries. I don't think there were any fights in POEII where I was like, "Yup, I am not winning this..." or "I need to come back after I get some levels."

 

Well, you can also be growing old and finding out that things are less enjoyable than before; or mayhap it's fall, your brain gets less vitamin D and does not produce enough dopamine thus making things less enjoyable, or you can just ignore the nonsense I wrote here because, dude, the only person who knows why you do not enjoy something is, well, you.

 

And while I'm here discussing extremely subjective issues as if they were objective facts or sh†t -- I have this impression from some posts that people kinda think that Obsidian strayed from the trite formula just to spite them or something. When, you know, they might just be creative people. And creative people tend to want to create something new rather than rehash the same orcs and goblins and dragons and owlbears and 3.5 rules for the umpteenth time.  Guess it sucks if all you ever wanted is "moar Baldurz Gate" but don't hold the studio accountable for not writing within your comfort zone -- because they have no obligation to do so.

 

Me? I'm giddy about Deadfire.    Like, I just reinstalled "Drakensang", vaguely remembering that I kind of liked the system but got bored into ennui of existential level by the story although could not remember why -- then intro starts -- "God created dragons...stereotypical dragon things happened....elves being stereotypical elves...dwarves blah blah blahdy-blah dwarfish things..." -- and I'm all "yeaaaaaaaawn. That's why."

 

I am without a doubt, growing old. But definitely not too old to enjoy these games. I am still playing a wide assortment of CRPG (and non CRPG) games and play D&D once or twice a month. So my advanced maturity is not the issue. ;-)

 

I realize this is subjective (in regards of enjoyment) - was posting to see if others were feeling like I was.

 

As for Obsidian and the game - it's not like I am knocking POE as a franchise. So it's clearly "moar Baldurz Gate" (which, I've only ever played once start to finish, unlike the first POE, which I even said I have replayed several times). So I am not sure I understand your dig at me in that entire second paragraph.

 

And as for enjoying POEII, I am happy you're giddy! I never said it was a bad game! I enjoyed it - just nowhere near as much as the first one.

[Tigranes]

 

 

And while I'm here discussing extremely subjective issues as if they were objective facts or sh†t -- I have this impression from some posts that people kinda think that Obsidian strayed from the trite formula just to spite them or something. When, you know, they might just be creative people. And creative people tend to want to create something new rather than rehash the same orcs and goblins and dragons and owlbears and 3.5 rules for the umpteenth time.  Guess it sucks if all you ever wanted is "moar Baldurz Gate" but don't hold the studio accountable for not writing within your comfort zone -- because they have no obligation to do so.

 

As an obsessive Infinity Engine fan that backed POE, I always knew it would be a different beast and I was (and am) happy for them to try new things.

 

That doesn't mean I like the results of everything new they try, though. That comes with the territory of, well, trying new things.

 

My regret with Obsidian isn't that they "betrayed us by not using D&D" or something, it's that they lost their signature style and quality of writing that defined them between KOTOR2 and New Vegas. Since then, their writing has gone steadily downhill. Mask of the Betrayer kept me excited to fire up the game again just to see more dialogues; now, it's mostly forgettable and even skippable.

 

At the end of the day, it's a 100 person company in an industry with super-high turnover and super-high bankruptcy rates, surviving against the odds working on whatever projects they can with whoever talented people they can keep on board. So I do understand. It's just a pity, is all.

[kmbogd]

 

A certain someone wanted more control over Deadfire's story than they had in the first game. They thought they could do better, and this was the result.

the person who wrote the first games story left the company, which probably had a bigger impact

 

 

I don't think this is accurate if you are insinuating whar I think you are. First of all there was not a single person doing most of the stuff but there were several narrative designers, so it's kind of wrong to single-out someone. But if you want to do it anyway then I guess the best pick is the lead narrative designer for PoE 1 and that was Eric Fenstermaker. I think it is  known that his pitch for the story-line won the internal competition and thus he was elected the lead narrative designer. Although Eric is no longer a full-time employee for Obsidian for some time, he participated in the Deadfire project (but obviously not as lead anymore).

Edited October 3, 2018 by kmbogd

[cokane]

For me the difference isn't in the writing but rather in the combat and management mechanics. There's just a lot less there to worry about. This results in several shortcomings.

 

First is that because classes and abilities are much more similar, subsequent playthroughs are less interesting.

 

Second, combat itself and especially any series of combats such as a dungeon or an untamed island are significantly less interesting. Cast all your spells/abilities, rest if you need to, rinse and repeat ad nauseam. This gets even worse on both the higher difficulties and later in the game. Combats becomes an absolute drag in these situations, which strips away all their drama. Powerful spells and abilities are less decisive and more just things you *have* to cast as part of slowly grinding away at a monster.

 

Lastly, gear and gearing up is just less interesting. It's not the gear itself that's bad, it's the combat mechanics. Much like I just said about high level abilities, even seemingly awesome gear upgrades are often nothing more than incremental improvements. And also since classes play similarly, gear is less dynamic.

 

As I've repeatedly said on these boards, I think moving away from a more limited spell system is largely to blame. Per encounter spells have to be nerfed if you can cast them all the time. Having all the classes expend a very similar resource pool is what adds to the game's homogeneity. Different resources and different ways of replenishing them is something the designers should have embraced, because that's what can make tactical/strategic style combat in an RPG interesting, and it's especially what gives it replay value.

[asnjas]

My thoughts? To what exactly? Why you didnt enjoy a second play through? No idea mate.

 

Maybe its you.

 

And i love people jumping at any chance to poke at the same tired complaints. Games not fun why? Because limited spell system. No reply value why? Because limited spell system. My dog threw up why? Because limited spell system.

[Messier-31]

I choose cliche medieval-ish temperate regions over tropic archipelago anytime.

 

But, Neketaka is so much better than Defiance Bay.

[bugarup]

As an obsessive Infinity Engine fan that backed POE, I always knew it would be a different beast and I was (and am) happy for them to try new things.

 

That doesn't mean I like the results of everything new they try, though. That comes with the territory of, well, trying new things.

 

My regret with Obsidian isn't that they "betrayed us by not using D&D" or something, it's that they lost their signature style and quality of writing that defined them between KOTOR2 and New Vegas. Since then, their writing has gone steadily downhill. Mask of the Betrayer kept me excited to fire up the game again just to see more dialogues; now, it's mostly forgettable and even skippable.

 

At the end of the day, it's a 100 person company in an industry with super-high turnover and super-high bankruptcy rates, surviving against the odds working on whatever projects they can with whoever talented people they can keep on board. So I do understand. It's just a pity, is all.

 

 

Yours is perfectly reasonable and not at all entitled observation. I quite disagree with it -- while I loved MoTB, I found it often needlessly loquacious, and Deadfire's factions are IMO huge improvement of Vegas's factions, although my anti-fantasy bias probably enters into equation as well -- but I understand where you're coming from and respect that. 

[Ancelor]

Wow. So is the general consensus that the game falls short of expectations?

[uuuhhii]

Wow. So is the general consensus that the game falls short of expectations?

actually exceeded expectation

no more awful empty box maps

no more stronghold nonsense

better big city and a main story actually give the main character some motivation to follow it

but all the per rest stuff are getting more confusing

and eleven passive skill are so hard to manage

one persuasion and few lore skill are more than enough

Edited October 3, 2018 by uuuhhii

[IndiraLightfoot]

I choose cliche medieval-ish temperate regions over tropic archipelago anytime.

 

But, Neketaka is so much better than Defiance Bay.

I'd go as far as saying that it was Neketaka that single-handed made this game go from a decent CRPG to a great CRPG.

Still, for me, overall, I found that if you weigh combat and combat system and all the classes and build possibilities all together, PoE1 was the better game (despite the seemingly neat multi-classing). And if I collectively would compare this very stuff to the CRPG adaptations of D&D 2nd ed as well as 3.0 and 3.5, and now recently, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, I'm afraid it was PoE that came closer to that kind of robust and diverse quality.