Dual-wielding, full attacks, and recovery

[AndreaColombo]

The nerf gods have spoken

 

They should add a Josh god challenge where every item and ability in the game have their beneficial effects reduced by 75%.

[InsaneCommander]

The nerf gods have spoken

 

They should add a Josh god challenge where every item and ability in the game have their beneficial effects reduced by 75%.

 

And a new mega boss that gets ten times stronger every time someone complains about a nerf.

 

[draego]

 

The nerf gods have spoken

 

They should add a Josh god challenge where every item and ability in the game have their beneficial effects reduced by 75%.

 

And a new mega boss that gets ten times stronger every time someone complains about a nerf.

 

 

 

Ye i saw that a while back. I like sith old man Josh. let the hate make you stronger

Edited August 30, 2018 by draego

[jww]

Not exactly the solution I was hoping for, but maybe if they had buffed the other styles, it would have resulted in more people complaining about the game being too easy? (note, I'm not one of those people)

 

I wonder what the numeric comparisons look like after this change?

Edited August 30, 2018 by jww

[Somnium_Meum]

I don't know if it was mentioned, but there's rather interesting interaction going on when you equip ranged weapon with reload in main hand and ranged weapon with recovery in off-hand - for example pistol MH and scepter OH.

Full attacks with such setup don't have reload nor recovery, and can be spammed back-to-back until you run out of resources.

 

Im not sure if it is bug or feature, but it's extremely powerful as it allows you to dump DEX and still have monstrous damage (esp. if you are multiclassing any 2 of rogue/ranger/fighter/pally)

[mant2si]

Yeah more nerfs :D

Edited August 30, 2018 by mant2si

[Kaylon]

I don't know if it was mentioned, but there's rather interesting interaction going on when you equip ranged weapon with reload in main hand and ranged weapon with recovery in off-hand - for example pistol MH and scepter OH.

Full attacks with such setup don't have reload nor recovery, and can be spammed back-to-back until you run out of resources.

 

Im not sure if it is bug or feature, but it's extremely powerful as it allows you to dump DEX and still have monstrous damage (esp. if you are multiclassing any 2 of rogue/ranger/fighter/pally)

I don't know how you tested it but it's not true at all. You have recovery with the scepter in the OH or reload if the pistol is in the OH.

[Siegdarth]

Full Attacks made while dual wielding will now receive a -35% penalty to the damage they deal. NEEEEEEERF yep.

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/105415-v210-is-now-available-on-the-beta-branch/

[brasilgringo]

Full Attacks made while dual wielding will now receive a -35% penalty to the damage they deal. NEEEEEEERF yep.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/105415-v210-is-now-available-on-the-beta-branch/

Ouch.  So where does this leave the 2H vs. dual-wield debate, especially on classes like Rogue and Pally that were spamming full attacks?

[Clerith]

I'm guessing that dw is still very slightly stronger when spamming full attacks, though 2h weapons with unique aoe properties could pull ahead, depends on a lot of the build too, like dw is usually very cut and dry, slap on any straightforward martial class, while 2h builds are more unique (WotEP, Voulge, Citzal).

Edited August 31, 2018 by Clerith

[1TTFFSSE]

I thought about this and I think a fair solution would be to increase the resource cost all of full attacks when wielding two weapons by 1 resource point and not nerf the damage - that way they still retain their purpose of delivering bursty damage when needed. Would be better than a -35% reduction in damage. 

[dunehunter]

 

I don't know if it was mentioned, but there's rather interesting interaction going on when you equip ranged weapon with reload in main hand and ranged weapon with recovery in off-hand - for example pistol MH and scepter OH.

Full attacks with such setup don't have reload nor recovery, and can be spammed back-to-back until you run out of resources.

 

Im not sure if it is bug or feature, but it's extremely powerful as it allows you to dump DEX and still have monstrous damage (esp. if you are multiclassing any 2 of rogue/ranger/fighter/pally)

I don't know how you tested it but it's not true at all. You have recovery with the scepter in the OH or reload if the pistol is in the OH.

Don’t make assumptions, TEST it. He means scepter in mainhand and pistol in offhand. In this way since full attack abilities use offhand recovery time and firearm has no recovery only reload. You actually CAN spam full attacks without recover. Imo it is a bug and should be fixed.

[lorddarkflare]

I actually like the solution. -35% seems a bit much right now, but I think this is a case where we should do the math and see how it shakes out.

Edited August 31, 2018 by lorddarkflare

[grasida]

Do we know how the -35% is implemented? Is it a multiplicative effect or additive, like most similar effects? I would guess it’s addictive, but affected by the dreaded double inversion.

[1TTFFSSE]

 

 

I don't know if it was mentioned, but there's rather interesting interaction going on when you equip ranged weapon with reload in main hand and ranged weapon with recovery in off-hand - for example pistol MH and scepter OH.

Full attacks with such setup don't have reload nor recovery, and can be spammed back-to-back until you run out of resources.

 

Im not sure if it is bug or feature, but it's extremely powerful as it allows you to dump DEX and still have monstrous damage (esp. if you are multiclassing any 2 of rogue/ranger/fighter/pally)

I don't know how you tested it but it's not true at all. You have recovery with the scepter in the OH or reload if the pistol is in the OH.

Don’t make assumptions, TEST it. He means scepter in mainhand and pistol in offhand. In this way since full attack abilities use offhand recovery time and firearm has no recovery only reload. You actually CAN spam full attacks without recover. Imo it is a bug and should be fixed.

 

Don't you have to reload the pistol in that case for the next full attack or is there a bug that ignores you reloading between full attacks?

[dunehunter]

 

 

 

I don't know if it was mentioned, but there's rather interesting interaction going on when you equip ranged weapon with reload in main hand and ranged weapon with recovery in off-hand - for example pistol MH and scepter OH.

Full attacks with such setup don't have reload nor recovery, and can be spammed back-to-back until you run out of resources.

 

Im not sure if it is bug or feature, but it's extremely powerful as it allows you to dump DEX and still have monstrous damage (esp. if you are multiclassing any 2 of rogue/ranger/fighter/pally)

I don't know how you tested it but it's not true at all. You have recovery with the scepter in the OH or reload if the pistol is in the OH.

Don’t make assumptions, TEST it. He means scepter in mainhand and pistol in offhand. In this way since full attack abilities use offhand recovery time and firearm has no recovery only reload. You actually CAN spam full attacks without recover. Imo it is a bug and should be fixed.

 

Don't you have to reload the pistol in that case for the next full attack or is there a bug that ignores you reloading between full attacks?

 

 

Yep bug.

[Kaylon]

 

 

I don't know if it was mentioned, but there's rather interesting interaction going on when you equip ranged weapon with reload in main hand and ranged weapon with recovery in off-hand - for example pistol MH and scepter OH.

Full attacks with such setup don't have reload nor recovery, and can be spammed back-to-back until you run out of resources.

 

Im not sure if it is bug or feature, but it's extremely powerful as it allows you to dump DEX and still have monstrous damage (esp. if you are multiclassing any 2 of rogue/ranger/fighter/pally)

I don't know how you tested it but it's not true at all. You have recovery with the scepter in the OH or reload if the pistol is in the OH.

Don’t make assumptions, TEST it. He means scepter in mainhand and pistol in offhand. In this way since full attack abilities use offhand recovery time and firearm has no recovery only reload. You actually CAN spam full attacks without recover. Imo it is a bug and should be fixed.

 

Have you tested yourself? What makes you think I didn't test?

[dunehunter]

 

 

 

I don't know if it was mentioned, but there's rather interesting interaction going on when you equip ranged weapon with reload in main hand and ranged weapon with recovery in off-hand - for example pistol MH and scepter OH.

Full attacks with such setup don't have reload nor recovery, and can be spammed back-to-back until you run out of resources.

 

Im not sure if it is bug or feature, but it's extremely powerful as it allows you to dump DEX and still have monstrous damage (esp. if you are multiclassing any 2 of rogue/ranger/fighter/pally)

I don't know how you tested it but it's not true at all. You have recovery with the scepter in the OH or reload if the pistol is in the OH.

Don’t make assumptions, TEST it. He means scepter in mainhand and pistol in offhand. In this way since full attack abilities use offhand recovery time and firearm has no recovery only reload. You actually CAN spam full attacks without recover. Imo it is a bug and should be fixed.

 

Have you tested yourself? What makes you think I didn't test?

 

 

Of course I test everything I post here. That's why I know you didn't test it. If you want proof, here u go

 

I use two set here, scepter in main/pistol in offhand. And pistol in main/scepter in offhand.

 

[Somnium_Meum]

Im sorry for misinformation, yes, it's scepter MH, pistol OH.

[Clerith]

Do we know how the -35% is implemented? Is it a multiplicative effect or additive, like most similar effects? I would guess it’s addictive, but affected by the dreaded double inversion.

I expected it to be a simple -35% multiplicative after everything else, but someone said it goes into the damage calcs and ends up being -55% additive damage. Meaning it'll hurt rogue less than the others.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Clerith

[Boeroer]

 

 

 

I don't know if it was mentioned, but there's rather interesting interaction going on when you equip ranged weapon with reload in main hand and ranged weapon with recovery in off-hand - for example pistol MH and scepter OH.

Full attacks with such setup don't have reload nor recovery, and can be spammed back-to-back until you run out of resources.

 

Im not sure if it is bug or feature, but it's extremely powerful as it allows you to dump DEX and still have monstrous damage (esp. if you are multiclassing any 2 of rogue/ranger/fighter/pally)

I don't know how you tested it but it's not true at all. You have recovery with the scepter in the OH or reload if the pistol is in the OH.

Don’t make assumptions, TEST it. He means scepter in mainhand and pistol in offhand. In this way since full attack abilities use offhand recovery time and firearm has no recovery only reload. You actually CAN spam full attacks without recover. Imo it is a bug and should be fixed.

Have you tested yourself? What makes you think I didn't test?

I also tested this after I read the bug report and it is like dunehunter et al. describe. I guess that's why they think you didn't test it yourself.

[Dorftek]

Must be a new bug? I've tried this before and i wouldn't get zero recovery unless I canceled the full attack before the pistol shot.

[Boeroer]

Maybe the timing has to be right.

[Dorftek]

Perhaps

 

I was experimenting with this some weeks ago and it didn't work for me back then but like u say it might be a timing thing and I always keep my combat speed on max.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Dorftek

[MaxQuest]

 

Have you tested yourself? What makes you think I didn't test?

 

Of course I test everything I post here. That's why I know you didn't test it. If you want proof, here u go

 

I use two set here, scepter in main/pistol in offhand. And pistol in main/scepter in offhand.

 

 

 

Ha, nice find

Have just tested it, and can confirm)

You need a ranged_weapon_with_recovery in mainhand, and ranged_weapon_with_reload in offhand. 

 

Must be a new bug? I've tried this before and i wouldn't get zero recovery unless I canceled the full attack before the pistol shot.

It's definitely a new bug.

I remember I was checking this after release or during v1.1, and behaviour was different.

 

 

Btw, chaining full-attacks with 1h_reload weapons in both hands has also changed:

> it was before: [mh_attack -> oh_attack] -> {oh_reload -> [mh_attack -> oh_attack]} * n

> but now it is: [mh_attack -> oh_attack] -> {mh_reload -> [mh_attack -> oh_attack]} * n

 

For example I was putting blunderbuss in main hand, and pistol (with rushed reload) in offhand. Because after testing 3 months ago, I knew that only reload of offhand will be used.

I had a feeling recently, that my MC became slower, and here's the reason. Will need to swap the hands now.

 

 

Another thing that was stealthily changed is: we didn't need to reload MH weapon after quick switching.

For example you had 3 pistols A, B, C:

mainset: A, B

offset: A, C

 

And spammed Full-Attack->Quick Switch in a cycle:

full-attack (A_attack, B_attack) -> Quick Switch -> full_attack (A_attack, C_attack) -> Quick Switch -> full-attack (B_reload, A_attack, B_attack) -> Quick Switch -> full-attack (C_reload, A_attack, C_attack) -> and so on

 

i.e. pistol A could fire without reloading at all because it was in mainhand.

But, have just tested, and it's vice-versa now: weapon in offhand can fire without reloading.

 

I presume that this change is the one that indirectly led to the bug discovered by dunehunter.

Edited August 31, 2018 by MaxQuest