Why did obsidian make the changes to the casting and rest system?

[no1fanboy]

I must admit the more i play deadfire the more i wish they had left the casting and rest system alone and kept it more like the first game.

 

What i cant figure out is what positives they actually achieved by nerfing all casters to only 2 spells per level per fight. I honestly have no idea.

 

What i have noticed is that casters have become far less flexible with very severe limitations in battle. In the first game my casters where constantly changing tactics to suit different encounters now in deadfire they seem to be casting the same spells over and over and over and over every fight.

 

Also why do only wizards get grimoires to help shuffle spells around? What happened to priests and druids? Did obsidian forget about them or something? I dont understand how one caster class could have this huge benefit and all the other classes simply are gimped. It could be argued that the druid gets spiritshift to compensate but the priest gets absolutely nothing of any value.

[Manveru123]

The difference is that in POE1 you often had to be careful what you cast because you had limited uses between rests and Camping Supplies were limited. In POE2 you can actually play like a real Wizard should, casting best spells every battle.

[Boeroer]

Who defines what "real" wizards should do? I mean because there are no real wizards, so I'm kind of curious...

[Manveru123]

There is no reason to troll. I obviously meant a role-playing archetype, not a real life example. We're in a forum about a computer game.

[rjshae]

The difference is that in POE1 you often had to be careful what you cast because you had limited uses between rests and Camping Supplies were limited. In POE2 you can actually play like a real Wizard should, casting best spells every battle.

 

'Cause why make a game with resource management (as in r/l) when you can cater to everybody's power fantasies?

[Tick]

I'm guessing it was part of the same process that tried to make resting feel less like a leash. I think wizards would probably be kind of ridiculous if you had as many charges as last game *and * could rest whenever you wanted without managing the campfire resource.

 

Overall I liked the feel better, though it does feel a bit warlock-y once in a while.

[Manveru123]

 

The difference is that in POE1 you often had to be careful what you cast because you had limited uses between rests and Camping Supplies were limited. In POE2 you can actually play like a real Wizard should, casting best spells every battle.

 

'Cause why make a game with resource management (as in r/l) when you can cater to everybody's power fantasies?

 

Because this is a fantasy game and not r/l?

[Skazz]

I love the changes to casting and resting. I couldn't really get into wizards in PoE because of their D&D-derived restrictions (which are arbitrary), but I was overjoyed that I could finally be a little more liberal with spellcasting in PoE 2.

[Rheios]

I really liked the old resting system with resources. Upping the rest limit while on ship (maybe having to choose what resting supplies you take with you as part of an exploration pack - that also holds your loot) , adding a fatigue mechanic for your crew, requiring them to use the drink/food resources during rest on the ship and having events occur when you're anchored and on nightwatch would have been fun.

So far as Wizards being cautious with their spells - you absolutely could cast spells in a lot of POE encounters. It was actually part of the fun to manage the resources well so that your fighter's health and your caster's magic were running out about the same time. And then personally I always pressed my luck a little more even but I tended to play with maim on (instead of immediate death) because I like to go until a few people have dropped once or fatigue sets in. Add in night fights and there'd be a certain tension in resting then. So I'm not sure what all the talk about POE wizards not acting like wizards is about. Maybe don't burn all the spells you spent your rest time weaving around yourself in the first 3 hours of the day - a wizard aware of how they cast in world would know that. (Its actually why I dislike lore-mechanic disassociation because it raises this concept of 'how would a wizard act? How much is the mechanic like the reality?' and then if that mechanic changes - 'what changed in the lore to cause this change if they are connected?'. Then you get **** like the  4e Spellplague)


As an aside I wish there were more of POE2's environment fights, like the mugging encounters in Nekataka, but occurring in more places. There's 1 on each of the area's big islands - at least - but it'd be nice to have more at sea.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Rheios

[Thibax]

It's funny how people are just against magic and fighters can have their skills all time.

 

Restrictions? To all classes, right?

[hilfazer]

Also why do only wizards get grimoires to help shuffle spells around? What happened to priests and druids? Did obsidian forget about them or something? I dont understand how one caster class could have this huge benefit and all the other classes simply are gimped. It could be argued that the druid gets spiritshift to compensate but the priest gets absolutely nothing of any value.

 

Obsidian loves their omnipotent by design wizards. They didn't forget about druids and priests as much as they forgot about every class but wizard. I've heard wizards in Deadfire can even summon. I guess in PoE3 they'll chant and backstab as well.

 

The difference is that in POE1 you often had to be careful what you cast because you had limited uses between rests and Camping Supplies were limited. In POE2 you can actually play like a real Wizard should, casting best spells every battle.

 

I knew Gandalf was fake!

[hermamora]

I play dnd with my colleagues and despite getting used to the system, limited spell uses between rests are unrealistic as hell. I mean if as a bard with the lute (to charm everyone) or necromancer with diamond (to raise the dead) I can meet all requirements to perform the spell, why such spell has limit usage? That's why mana system is less ridiculous.  

[Loren Tyr]

I love the changes to casting and resting. I couldn't really get into wizards in PoE because of their D&D-derived restrictions (which are arbitrary), but I was overjoyed that I could finally be a little more liberal with spellcasting in PoE 2.

 

Same here. Without any clear cost to resting / elapsed time and no ability to really plan ahead either (except through metagame knowledge), it just turns too much into having to self-regulate your own difficulty level all the time. And there's a good chance you end up either hoarding spells and not using a lot of them at all (because you were saving them for a next encounter that never came), or over-using spells in a single encounter and making it much easier than it was supposed to be. That at least has always been my experience.

[rjshae]

 

 

The difference is that in POE1 you often had to be careful what you cast because you had limited uses between rests and Camping Supplies were limited. In POE2 you can actually play like a real Wizard should, casting best spells every battle.

 

'Cause why make a game with resource management (as in r/l) when you can cater to everybody's power fantasies?

Because this is a fantasy game and not r/l?

 

Well there's fantasy and then there's fantasy. I suppose it depends on whether you prefer GoT or Powerpuff Girls.

[Rheios]

I play dnd with my colleagues and despite getting used to the system, limited spell uses between rests are unrealistic as hell. I mean if as a bard with the lute (to charm everyone) or necromancer with diamond (to raise the dead) I can meet all requirements to perform the spell, why such spell has limit usage? That's why mana system is less ridiculous.  

Well its origins come from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_Earth because Gygax, one of the major contributors to the creation of D&D, was a huge Jack Vance fan.

 

I myself prefer an outlook more similar to The Chronicles of Amber - in which a caster must "hang" constructed spells, from an internal map of a greater  structure - the Pattern or Logrus in those books, around one's self with specific trigger words+motions combined to fire this pre-packaged ability that then must be rehung/reconstructed to cast again. In that concept the hanging is time consuming and precise and  takes a chunk of rest + prep time the next morning. The levels of magic and the amount of spells you can memorize are a product of your skill in hanging and your mastery of the complex construction so that you can produce more, of a better level, more easily.

 

So far as 'mana' system being less ridiculous - that's entirely based on the setting and context. Dungeons and Dragons has magic being a very formulaic and extensive thing, sometimes defined like in Forgotten Realms or sometimes not, that may constrain even deities. Its like learning the physics of this world and how to circumvent/use it. In something so structured I'm not sure Mana would necessarily be appropriate beyond maybe having a class that brute forces such rules. That all being said, the reason Psionics has gotten away with it in the past is because its a system separate from that magic one wherein an individual has learned to control the physics of the world in a manner separate form that Magical background system. Which can *seriously* not fit if its poorly explained or implemented (I'd say only Dark Sun's setting has done it well) and I think a Mana system in D&D would feel similarly to that.

 

 

My understanding as to why spells are limited for each class:

 

Wizards: Require a lot of time, study, and effort to memorize these arcane reality rewriting symbols, or construct these magical reality-altering constructions depending on your point of view, and the time it takes and skill at doing so improves with time but free-form reality altering is never really in their grasp so much as they eventually can hang as many spells as can be useful. 

 

Sorcerers/Bards: They literally use their presence and sheer force of self to alter reality. Sorcerers do it through the focus of their blood and bards perform it through the power of expressed belief - something like 'If I can convince myself its real, I can convince reality it is too' and for some reason that works for them. Problem is, its probably tiring and since magic apparently works in a formulaic way forcing it will probably only get you a bit farther than the Wizard and usually they can't produce as many effects without study.

 

Clerics/Druids: Are gifted their magic through faith and only gain so many gifts when requested during their morning meditations/communions. Asking for more at a different time and the DM may give it to you but at the same time may not, I've done it either way before. Usually at a cost when it works.

 

Warlocks: Something relatively new, these are likely closer to what you'd think of and while they have less power up front they can get it back with only a bit of rest and focus. Their powers are given due to a 'deal with the devil' (in 5e D&D it doesn't have to be a devil specifically) style situation, giving them an endlessly replenishing arsenal of magic to pull form, but only a few pieces at a time since its still constrained by the D&D setting's assumptions about magic

 

Edited July 18, 2018 by Rheios

[try2handing]

This system allows you to always go all out in every encounter, without having to worry about either limiting yourself or wasting resources. One less thing to worry about, you know. And because you can always go all out (combined with resting being easier), your "all out" can't be too strong, so you are limited to two casts per level.

 

As for why wizard alone has this grimoire thing that gives them extra flexibility over other caster classes, I have no clue. It might be purely a concept element and need to be there, and was never taken into consideration as a balance element to begin with.

[Tanlaus]

I personally like the ability to use spells per encounter without resting for the same reason other people have mentioned already. I get more use out of my wizard outside of saving him or her for a big encounter.

 

I do think priests and druids get the shaft a little bit from having a narrow access to spells thanks to the lack of a spell book...

 

And the reason I say ‘a little bit’ is because I tend to find myself using the same few spells over and over with both classes so I never feel like I’m missing out. Plus it’s easy enough to make scrolls for the spells I don’t really want to burn a slot in but find occasionally useful.

[knownastherat]

Why? Streamlined. 

[Gfted1]

Don't Clerics and Druids get to use the full library of spells while Mage only gets grimoires to change spells, or something like that?

[Boeroer]

No. Priests and Druids pick the "abilities" they want to have during level up and can only cast those. Wizards dito, but they can also cast spells from Grimoires. A Wizard/Rogue with Deep Pockets, Fleshmender and Giftbearer's Cloth can juggle 9 Grimoires around (=up to 162 additional spells - which is nonsense because there will be overlap, but still...). He doesn't even need to pick one single spell at lvl-up and still be able to cast from an abundance of spells from Grimoires.

 

And even in fantasy games there is no "real" wizard - because wizards are completely made up you can't have a template that's rooted in the real world. They are products of somebody's imagination. Every game decides which sort of wizard you get and it's always "real" in the scope of that game (unless the game implements wizards known from other fiction and screws up).

Thus, arguing that wizards in Deadfire are like "real" wizards while PoE's were not is fruitless. They are different and one can like that because of x or not because of y, but not because now they are more "real".

Edited July 18, 2018 by Boeroer

[Gfted1]

Was it like that in PoE1?

[Boeroer]

No. Concerning spell portfolio, Druids and Priests got a huge kick in the crotch. Wizards not so much.

 

It's not that the 2/encounter that severely limits the flexibility of Priest and Druid but the leveling that only allows you to pick one, sometimes two spells at level up.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Boeroer

[peko]

I couldn't really get into wizards in PoE because of their D&D-derived restrictions (which are arbitrary)

How are they more arbitrary than the current restrictions?

[rjshae]

The best part of the Priest class now are the bonus spells they get for their particular Faith.

[AFA]

The Vancian Casting is great on Tabletop, but usually pretty crappy in videos games. In the infinity engine games, NWN, and NWN2, you basically spam rest and go to the next encounter with all your goodies anyways. That is the whole reason camping supplies existed in PoE, to stop rest spam. Ciphers were so damn fun and powerful, because you could just keep chucking spells, while a wizard or priest would throw a spell or two, then auto-attack.