The sales thread

[whiskiz]

I'll start by saying I haven't played beyond Deadlight, because from the start it was obvious the game will benefit a lot from the first patches and I didn't want to spoil it for myslef by playing unpatched. Plus, there was enough work to do on the JSON editor to keep me busy.

 

This means I can't speak at length about the game's qualities or story, but the little I saw won me over completely, and I think the game is overall a big improvement over PoE. The increase in complexity and readability of mechanics, and in freedom/exploration of gameplay at the same time, the addition of multiclassing plus the ship system is just a huge boost. This is now much more than an IE games revival/clone. There is much I would like to change about the combat and abilities balance, but that's what modding is for.

 

All reviews of Deadfire I have seen so far seem to be very positive, and I think that's well earned by the game, yet the sales numbers don't seem to be that great. I wonder why is that? Are people waiting for patches/DLC? Does the price feel too high for people who haven't backed/preordered?

 

"I'll start by saying I haven't played beyond Deadlight, because from the start it was obvious the game will benefit a lot from the first patches and I didn't want to spoil it for myslef by playing unpatched"

 

That's the nicest and most diplomatic way of saying you're waiting until they actually finish the game properly, that i've ever seen haha.

 

Same with me, not even getting it until they finish it properly. Having to balance multiple difficulties post release, major bugfix both before and after release, level scaling flat not working on release etc.

 

Bit scummy to release it half done, working on finishing it post release while we already pay full price and they increase there QA/beta test for free, but it seems to be the standard practice in the gaming industry these days unfortunately.

Edited June 2, 2018 by whiskiz

[antman45454]

Well the game is actually playable now that they fixed the difficulty issues in the patch beta, hopefully that will increase there sales.

[CAlmond]

 

 

Having a low release peak and then very low concurrent users can hardly be taken as a good sign. Early interest in Deadfire seems weak.

That is probably because the game had more hype going in this time, and everyone and their brother is focusing on idiotic user reviews and internet BS than actually playing the game.  Even this forum had tons of idiotic posts in the weeks leading up to the game talking about "I will wait 3 months to buy the game because of no real good reason". 

 

I am sure the "Obsidian makes bugged games" stuff is also doing nothing to make the bugs in this game highly exaggerated.  I mean I still see people daily makes posts about the import bugs..... which were fixed in a patch that came mere days after release and has been available for quite some time.

Also no offense, I am sure Steam is the greatest thing ever and it determines all games success, but there are GoG copies too.  Like mine for example.  And it stayed top seller on GoG far longer.  You really count one, and ignore the other.  Actual real sales don't work that way.

Until Obsidian says something every thread like this is just doom and gloom nay sayers making things up.  That said, I seriously doubt this game cost 14 mil, if it did, that money was managed beyond poorly regardless of where it was made.

The game had a lower release peak because it had more hype is one theory I suppose. Sounds nonsensical to me. Overwhelmingly more likely that is has a significantly lower release peak because it’s sold significantly fewer copies. But then I am trying to analyse the limited available data objectively, not search for farfetched reasons to ignore it in order to blindly defend a predetermined position.

 

I would consider similar data for GoG if it were available. I’m aware of no reason to assume there’s been a big shift from Steam to GoG however, so if it’s down on one it’s probably down on the other. Sure, it’s not impossible that it’s struggling on Steam while being wildly successful on GoG, but it’s far from likely.

 

 

I bought this on GoG, not on steam, and all of my friends who I know bought it also did so on GoG. It's because we're Aussies and the GoG price was cheaper even before GoG included a free copy of Wasteland 2: Director's Cut.

 

Now obviously that's anecdotal evidence, but I think there is good reason to believe that a lot of people who are not in the US would have bought from GoG rather than Steam. And with a game like PoE 2, it's not really a mass market type game like CoD. It's the type of game that attracts a more dedicated gamer crowd, people who are a lot more likely to have both GoG and Steam accounts (and probably Origin, Blizzard etc accounts as well). 

[Skazz]

 

if we are going to assume a 14mill figure lets at least have a source for it? I also thinks it's excessive, we know they put some money into it but not how much from what I have seen.

 

I can believe it. Can you imagine what their payroll is? They live in one of the most expensive parts of the country. They have to pay their employees well enough so they aren't homeless.

 

They might be better off moving to a less expensive city. Like my city. It would be cool having them here. California is just getting too expensive to live for most people. I'd rather my hard earned dollars be spent on gaming content, rather than paying for housing costs in one of the most expensive places to live in the U.S.

 

 

Come to Poland, guys. Video game development is dirt cheap here.

[daven]

Surely it will have sold more on GOG. That's the place for RPG's and what not?

[AndreaColombo]

I redeemed my copy on GoG too, for what it's worth.

[Mikeymoonshine]

Gog is a very small percentage of the market but it may be higher for certain games or genres I really don't know.

 

How did the first Pillars do on the steam bestsellers list because that was said to have crossed 500k in about six months I think?

[syphonhail]

I think people forget that these Kickstarted/Fig backed CRPGs are Indie games.
Steam Charts are irrelevant as the majority of the fans backed the game and that doesn't show up on Sales. Also GoG, Amazon and other retailers sell the game as well.

The Fig Campaign made $4.5 Million in Pre-Sales.

Overall the game is very successful for a Indie Game. 
 

I don't see how they could have spent more than 2 or 3 million on this game. It's a sequel in the same engine with a lot of re-used stuff (soundtrack is an obvious example). What would they have spent the money on? Does VA cost 10+ million?

 

VA is actually very expensive. Plus they voice acted the whole game that took a big chunk of the development costs. A 4 Hour Session per day is $850-$900 for upto 3 Voices. The other option is the hourly rate of $451 per Voice. Not to mention they have to pay an additional 15.5% into Healthcare and Retirement Funds. 

Edited June 2, 2018 by syphonhail

[Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell]

Gog is a very small percentage of the market but it may be higher for certain games or genres I really don't know.

 

How did the first Pillars do on the steam bestsellers list because that was said to have crossed 500k in about six months I think?

 

Pillars of eternity was released in March 2015 and by Oct had sold 500,000 copies. By Feb. 2016 it had sold 700,000 copies.

 

Tyranny which wasn't marketed much at all, sold just under expectations.

 

That said I guess currently Pillars of eternity 2 probably sold 150,000 - 200,000. I don't think to far off first games sales. It will probably get some sale spikes when on sale, each time DLC released and probably when people feel bugs and issue been sorted it spike again.

[antman45454]

is there a way of actually being able to tell how many copies have been sold?

 

I think there is, one option on the FIG website was for you to be able to back the game and be an investor in it.

 

Surely they would have to provide sales figures to people who chose this option.

 

Did anyone here invest in the game? If you did go see what data they have provided investors 

[flamesium]

“Well I bought it on gog...” etc is not really meaningful. I’m aware that GoG exists and that people buy/redeem games on it: that is equally true for the games I compared it to.

 

What would be meaningful is if there’s been a big shift in the ratio between Steam and GoG sales since the release of the games I compared it to. If it’s shifted from, say, 70/30 in Steam’s favour to 70/30 in GoG’s favour then yes, that would mitigate the much lower Steam release peak and early concurrent user numbers. I’m aware of no reason to believe that shift has happened.

 

I know I switched the opposite direction (from GoG Pillars to Steam Deadfire) because Steam had preload, and no doubt others have gone from Steam to GoG, but I would expect overall the ratio to be in the same ballpark for Deadfire as it was for Pillars.

[SonicMage117]

I know I switched the opposite direction (from GoG Pillars to Steam Deadfire) because Steam had preload, and no doubt others have gone from Steam to GoG, but I would expect overall the ratio to be in the same ballpark for Deadfire as it was for Pillars.

True.

 

Hmmm, as penial as it is to mention, I shall do so anyway....

 

I don't think people realize that people actually leave GoG and move to Steam. Just as much as the opposite I'd reckon. Though that may be hard some here to imagine.

[Sven_]

Re: Tyranny / Deadfire and expectations.

https://www.mcvuk.com/business/versus-evil-obsidian-is-one-of-the-top-tier-rpg-developers-plain-and-simple
 

 

“Putting it plainly we hope and expect that we can meet or exceed the launch of Pillars,” he says. “Our goal is to build on the brand. We hope to not only bring in our former fans, but build on that and expand the audience.”

 

 

 

“We’d love for it to do even better than Pillars and I think it can,” Sawyer says. “I’m hopeful that if we are really delivering for our fans and working well with the publishing partner, that it can outperform [Pillars] in every way.”

A Pillars 3 was sort of announced by Faergus a while ago if Deadfire was a "success" aka "meeting expectations".

The decision to include fully VO as well as various other overhauls hint at that the target is trying to expand the audience, overall.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Sven_

[antman45454]

Re: Tyranny / Deadfire and expectations.

 

https://www.mcvuk.com/business/versus-evil-obsidian-is-one-of-the-top-tier-rpg-developers-plain-and-simple

 

 

“Putting it plainly we hope and expect that we can meet or exceed the launch of Pillars,” he says. “Our goal is to build on the brand. We hope to not only bring in our former fans, but build on that and expand the audience.”

 

 

 

“We’d love for it to do even better than Pillars and I think it can,” Sawyer says. “I’m hopeful that if we are really delivering for our fans and working well with the publishing partner, that it can outperform [Pillars] in every way.”

 

A Pillars 3 was sort of announced by Faergus a while ago if Deadfire was a "success" aka "meeting expectations".

The decision to include fully VO as well as various other overhauls hint at that the target is trying to expand the audience, overall.

thats a really good article thanks for that,

 

lets hope it sells well then so they make pillars 3

[Siegdarth]

 

 

 

Because the new steam private policy it's hard to say for sure. But I would bet it is around  120k to 150k copies. The first game to this day, last time I checked steamspy before the new rules, was around 1.6 mi copies 

 

A game with 4.4 million and costing 50USD, such as this, would pay itself around the 120k copies. But its hard to be precise, since some people, like me, got the deluxe pack.

 

So it probably paid itself around the 90k to 100k sales. Anything more than that is profit. 

 

Remember that the game is also a franchise, fans also spend money on shirts and stuff, so it can be more than that.

 

 

https://steamspy.com/search.php?s=deadfire

I heard the budget was $14,000,000

 

They used 4 mil funding plus 10 mil of there own money

 

I also heard 500,000 copies was the break even price

 

No way it was 14 million.  Mass Effect andromeda cost 40 million (10 of those was for marketing), Witcher 2 cost around 10 million and the first game cost around 5 million, and the branching storylines are more complex than Deadfire. I'm putting together marketing costs in the bill also. 

If POE2 cost 14 million to be made it should have way more content. I would say it was done with most 5 to 6 million tops. 

 

PO2 Marketing campaign is far from what those games I mentioned spent because cRPG it is a niche market. You don't see expensive cinematic trailers on tv or youtube. Only in some major magazines, and is not that expensive. 

 

Just to put things into perspective, the game has no complex cinematics ( what they have is easily done in after effects or other programs), no facial rigging, no big worries with lighting and environmental effects, doing those in a third person/first person game is way more expensive, simple combat animations (All the attacks are the same despiting using totally different skills, most spells share the animations by class, I love 2 handed because it has 2-3 animation sets, while all other weapons have 1-2), and no dialogue character animations. The effects of spells and abilities are top notch, but not so expensive. The models are good, but the customization is pre-defined.

What is really expensive about the game is the sheer amount of programming in making all those systems and quests conditions and so on. The writing is really important, however, the price is not nearly the amount of other assets.

And one of the most expensive things they already did with POE, they adapted Unity to their needs to the point InXile reached them to use their conversation editor, systems, and tools to create Numenara. 

 

The amount of voice over made a lasting impression on me.  But let's be sincere, a soulbound weapon that speaks doesn't cost 250K, there are entire visual novel/narrative games with voice over which are made with half that value. To create a single NPC companion would cost around 200K when you say you would have twice more voice-overs in the game for the same value? To implement the Berath's blessings would cost another 200k?

I would trade the talking weapon for another companion or more interesting and complex characters, I would trade UI customization for more dialogue at my characters romance options.

 

Do you think they would need 1 mi to add multiclassing to the game? The skills don't even interact directly with each other! They just added the other class skills, removed 2 power levels and that's it! When they said they needed 1 mi for multiclassing I was thinking about a warrior with a psyblade and using it to do long-range attacks or pulling the enemy close to them with a psi power, a rogue that can use a psi power to enter stealth or even a holy warrior that used flames of devotion mixed with knockdown and it changed the skill to Smite. 

 

Another question to spin your mind. You can kill all the companions and bring none to the new game. So you party will be exactly 5 (Xoti, Druid, Cipher, Ranger, Player Character) If Xoti wasn't founded would you think the developers would deliver a game with 3 companions ( not enough to form a party) and without a Priest? 

 

Imo, if they spent 14 mi in this game probably they had a bunch of development or money management problems and needed the 1.1 campaign to finish the game. The extra money they had it was used to produce the DLC. Oh and 3  DLC every 2 months after the lunch means cheap content or it was already in production.  

 

But don't mind me, i'm probably wrong because i love theorycrafting =P.

 

 

 

Game dev budget will probably go 2-3x further in Poland than in the US.

 

It depends, most of the models and non-vital assets are often outsourced. 

 

Models - Riggs - Animations - Music - V.O - some SFX - Cinematics are outsourced  

 

Design The programming - Writing - QA - Debugging-  Art direction (style/concepts and moods) are all made in-house. 

 

So it comes way cheaper because you buy on demand.

 

And even if you choose to do everything in-house the people are contracted by development phase. When you finish all concepts on pre-production you don't need the artists on your payroll, same is valid for every other aspect in the game. So, what you expend in each development phase is cheaper and manageable.

 

The illusion of "2x to 3x"  the cost is because of the polish top professionals already work for U.S contractors, so the price will be more expensive, but still cheaper than those in the U.S. Even here, at Brasil, if you try to contact a professional that already work for major companies he will charge you for the same value.  A concept art from a professional cost around 200 reais, which is about 60 - 70 USD, however a professional already in the international market will charge around 200 - 300 USD, around 1000 reais, still cheaper since the same art at LA would cost around 600 USD (of course depends a lot of the art, but lets say its for the same piece). 

 

However, you will always have great professionals, but still trying to get know outside, that will be cheaper.

 

Of course, I'm not taking account of life costs/taxes/ and etc. Living in an expensive city tends to eat away your resources if you are an indie company.

[Gairnulf]

“Well I bought it on gog...” etc is not really meaningful. I’m aware that GoG exists and that people buy/redeem games on it: that is equally true for the games I compared it to.

 

What would be meaningful is if there’s been a big shift in the ratio between Steam and GoG sales since the release of the games I compared it to. If it’s shifted from, say, 70/30 in Steam’s favour to 70/30 in GoG’s favour then yes, that would mitigate the much lower Steam release peak and early concurrent user numbers. I’m aware of no reason to believe that shift has happened.

 

I know I switched the opposite direction (from GoG Pillars to Steam Deadfire) because Steam had preload, and no doubt others have gone from Steam to GoG, but I would expect overall the ratio to be in the same ballpark for Deadfire as it was for Pillars.

Preload comes with the caveat that you have to wait for decryption when the game unlocks. With a big game such as Deadfire (40GB), again thank you Feargus for the full VO, the decryption can take about as long as the download did.

 

I am for GOG all the way because I like the luxury of being able to just download, install and start my game from the desktop and run nothing else but my game. But that's me.

 

I have the impression that an unusually large proportion of Deadfire's sales are on GOG, I'd love if someone from Obsidian could confirm.

 

Regarding the waiting for patches - check out the steamspy stats on Average Time Played (Total), and you'll see that nearly everyone is waiting for patches. The average playing time is about 12 minutes and that's the average across 100k+ steam owners.

 

Personally, I'm considering waiting for the first DLC in July, if the 1.1 patch takes a lot of time to come out. Mid-June or mid-July isn't much of a difference to me. And since I'm on GOG,I can't use the beta patch, so I have to wait for the full 1.1 version.

[wih]

And since I'm on GOG,I can't use the beta patch, so I have to wait for the full 1.1 version.

 

 

How so? I'm on GOG also and I already play with the beta patch.

[Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell]

I choose gog. 

 

I have steam account and lot games in steam. I do prefer gog. Issue I have with steam never really own anything. Steam ultimately has power to remove anything or close your account. 

 

That been said steam gets lot more from game companies compared to gog.

 

Old games from gog work or need less done to work, steam sell games don't work and don't bother do anything about it.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell

[AeonsLegend]

Continuing the story of The Watcher was always shooting themselves in the foot as far as sales are concerned.

 

I swear every other studio figured this out over the last decade or so: you establish a setting / franchise but you always make it so new people can join in any time a new game is released, without having intimate knowledge of what happened in the previous games.

 

Elder Scrolls, Fallout, GTA... take your pick. They go to great lengths to make sure everyone knows they don't need to have played any previous game in the franchise. Larian 'got it' when they made D:OS2.

 

The Witcher gets away with it by treating each game as 'A new adventure, starring Geralt of Rivia'. He's more like James Bond, and people get that. If that franchise expected you to have played and finished the previous games to understand what was going on it would be completely dead instead of going from strength to strength.

 

If you want to break this rule and have a sequel which expects the player to have played the previous game/s, you need to be certain enough people bought and finished the previous game/s. 

Except that the game series POE tries to follow did exactly the same thing and was hugely succesful with it. Both BG and BGII sold an equel amount of units. Perhaps those were different times. Perhaps Forgotten Realms is more interesting than Eora. Who knows. I think it has more to do with the quality of the game you made before and if that PC character had something going for it rather than if it is a continuation or not.

 

Also Mass Effect.

[AeonsLegend]

I choose gog. 

 

I have steam account and lot games in steam. I do prefer gog. Issue I have with steam never really own anything. Steam ultimately has power to remove anything or close your account. 

 

That been said steam gets lot more from game companies compared to gog.

 

Old games from gog work or need less done to work, steam sell games don't work and don't bother do anything about it.

Actually steam will not remove content from your account and they may ban you or even remove your account yes, but they will only do so if you really go out of your way to abuse the system and cheat to make other peoples lives online worse or you know, do something illegal. If you're a normal user you seriously have nothing to worry about.

[Slotharingia]

Why doesn't someone make a poll?

[Gairnulf]

 

And since I'm on GOG,I can't use the beta patch, so I have to wait for the full 1.1 version.

 

How so? I'm on GOG also and I already play with the beta patch.

 

I guess you are using Galaxy because I don't see the beta patch in the list of downloads.

[wih]

 

 

And since I'm on GOG,I can't use the beta patch, so I have to wait for the full 1.1 version.

 

How so? I'm on GOG also and I already play with the beta patch.

 

I guess you are using Galaxy because I don't see the beta patch in the list of downloads.

 

 

Ah, yes, I'm using Galaxy. It can be used just as an downloader/installer though. You don't have to run the game through Galaxy. Or are there some other downsides?

[Zoraptor]

 

 

And since I'm on GOG,I can't use the beta patch, so I have to wait for the full 1.1 version.

 

How so? I'm on GOG also and I already play with the beta patch.

 

I guess you are using Galaxy because I don't see the beta patch in the list of downloads.

 

 

You have to use Galaxy to get the beta patch in the first place (by turning the beta channel on in 'More: settings') but don't have to use Galaxy after.

[Gairnulf]

Good to know, though I'll stay away from the beta patch anyway. I spent quite some time with the BB of PoE and this had some part to play in that I ultimately disliked the base PoE, before expansions. This time I'm going to be just a customer (except for the modding tool work).

Edited June 4, 2018 by Gairnulf