Can Single Class Compete Under Current Sytem

[Erik-Dirk]

So I know we haven't had a chance to check out tier 8 or 9 abilities but the question is does it matter? Even if they are good enough to equalize or surpass a multi class we will still have spent at least 3/4 of the game under powered.

 

Now realistically obsidian probably can't fully balance single and multiclass potential without introducing very ridged rules. Baldurs gate didn't allow multiclass between melee classes or any paladin, both classes need to individually level up, and we still had multi classes like the kensai-mage dominating.

 

The current system gives unnecessary bonuses to multiclass characters: 

• A free, often very powerful attribute or two at character creation.
• 1/3 extra ability points.

Do we really need these extra bonuses? Power level does not seem to do that much and access to higher tiers is not that valuable when you consider Fighter/Ciphers:

• Fighter/Ciphers get both constant recovery and soul whip, free at character creation
• Single classes get access to veterans recovery or draining whip two levels earlier (Which when you think about it just brings them on par with the multiclass)

As a partial fix:

• all level 0 abilities should be halved in value when multi classing (I.e. soul whip adds 10% damage) (perhaps with an option to spend a point at level up to get the other half)
• Both single and multi class receive the same number of ability points at level up.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Erik-Dirk

[Heijoushin]

They general consensus at the moment is: no, they can't. There just aren't enough abilities to choose from to do anything special with a single class character (especially with neutral abilities removed). I wouldn't want to nerf multiclasses (because finding synergy between their two bonuses is what makes them fun to roll) but single classes also need something attractive. Say, an early level ability that you only get as a single class. 

[Erik-Dirk]

I think we're all disappointed with the single class tree.

However I think the following changes really need to be made:

• Single class receive 2 ability points at character creation, multi class only receive 1 ability point to pay for the level 0 skills
• Multi-Class shouldn't receive an extra ability point every 3 levels

Edited January 13, 2018 by Erik-Dirk

[Heijoushin]

 

I think we're all disappointed with the single class tree.

However I think the following changes really need to be made:

• Single class receive 2 ability points at character creation, multi class only receive 1 ability point to pay for the level 0 skills
• Multi-Class shouldn't receive an extra ability point every 3 levels

 

 

I see what you mean balance-wise. But single classes already have too few abilities to choose from. With an extra point, I kind of feel like you'll be able to choose everything on their tree... which will make them even less unique. 

[rjshae]

Single class gaining abilities faster than multi-class isn't enough? I thought the whole point of multi-class was trading power for flexibility.

[dunehunter]

Single class gaining abilities faster than multi-class isn't enough? I thought the whole point of multi-class was trading power for flexibility.

That is intended yeah. But imagining a Cipher/Rogue, u get both sneak attack and soul whip at lvl 1 so you will do more damage than single rogue or cipher with auto attack.

 

Unless the +1 power level ability/spell is > the double passive u get, I don’t think single class is more powerful.

Edited January 13, 2018 by dunehunter

[Erik-Dirk]

Really what i'm asking is how obsidian could possible justify multiclass characters getting not only an essentially free extra set of level 0 skills, but another 7 ability points to spend?

[Ninjamestari]

With 4 different subclass-variants of each class and multiclassing, there are 55*16 = 880 variants to consider. If you think that can be balanced while still retaining any semblance of class identity and uniqueness, you're simply nuts. That being said, I'm interested in how this is handled as well. Has anyone in the Beta experimented on this single vs multi-class? I'd really like to hear what has been discovered.

[Mihai]

This is a thread I just wanted to make. In all my d&d games I played mostly a single class. I don't have anything against multi/dual classes, but the impression I got from the reading this forum is that the single classes and especially caster classes suck big time. And everytime someone tells that x class is bad, someone just comes and says "well, pair it with y class and it will be fine", and thats it. Very few people seem worried about this. Isn't this a HUGE problem? If every single class is just plain bad when compared to a multi class one?

 

Will the difference between a single class party and a multi class one be that one can play story mode and the other POTD?

Edited January 13, 2018 by Mihai

[hilfazer]

The goal is to have everything viable on Normal/Hard.

Having everything viable also on PotD is a bonus.

Having everything balanced is also a bonus. It's also not something designers should aim for because

With 4 different subclass-variants of each class and multiclassing, there are 55*16 = 880 variants to consider. If you think that can be balanced while still retaining any semblance of class identity and uniqueness, you're simply nuts.

 

[Mihai]

Sure, everything can't be balanced for every difficulty, but the first POE did a great job when it came to balance. Sure, it took a while and rogues were still a little behind because they were squishy as hell, but give me a mixed party of whatever and I'll make it work even on POTD. 

 

Now I don't have beta acces, but from reading the forum the impression I got is that the difference between a single class caster and a multi class whatever else is HUGE. Maybe it's not the case, but thats how it seems from reading what you guys write.

 

Heck, I don't even see one post about a single class build, they just seems dead, while the first POE is full of class builds. If single class builds are dead because of multi classes, then that is just really bad design and a waste of developing time as they had a good thing going with POE that they could have improved instead of scratching that and starting again with multi classes.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Mihai

[ShakotanSolari]

This is a thread I just wanted to make. In all my d&d games I played mostly a single class. I don't have anything against multi/dual classes, but the impression I got from the reading this forum is that the single classes and especially caster classes suck big time. And everytime someone tells that x class is bad, someone just comes and says "well, pair it with y class and it will be fine", and thats it. Very few people seem worried about this. Isn't this a HUGE problem? If every single class is just plain bad when compared to a multi class one?

I agree completely, this is a big problem. Multi-classing is supposed to be an optional feature, not a necessary tool to use in order to make your character viable. As others have pointed out in this thread, it is probably impossible to balance all 880 options, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to shorten the power gap between single and multi-class characters. Both should feel as rewarding to play as the other, but that simply isn't true right now. 

 

The biggest contributor to this problem is, in my mind, that the philosophy of "multi-class sacrifices power for diversity" simply has not be put into practice, though I feel that this can be attributed more to single-classes lacking power than to multi-classes lacking diversity. Currently the benefits of a single-class seem largely superficial - the access to highest power levels is something that means absolutely nothing for 75%+ of the game and as it is currently we don't even know if those abilities are going to be worth the offset. Likewise, the impact of quicker advancement through power levels seems to have very little noticeable effect on most classes.

 

I feel it important to mention here too that power level is not very well defined in the game at the moment. Seeing as it is literally the only advantage that a single-class character has over a multi-class one, it would seem to me that making the effects of power level more transparent and more obvious would be a rather important step to take towards enticing people to wanting to play a single-class character.

 

TL;DR: power level needs to have more of an impact on the game.

Edited January 17, 2018 by ShakotanSolari

[Gromnir]

the beta is misleading.  got half total power levels and thus ~half total abilities available.  at the moment there is relative few class customization opportunities for a single-class character, but those options is gonna increase.  sure, multi-class will also have more options, but there is gonna be a kinda floating point where many single classes become increasing competitive, and if poe is like any other game with levels, am suspecting particular for dedicated casters, the point o' competitiveness will come later rather than earlier.

 

the beta format also camouflages early game awkwardness for many multiclasses.  sure, is more than a few current power builds being touted as soopergrooveykewl, but those builds typical ain't impressive 'til level _____ and level _____ is rare 1-5. need combine x abilities from class 1 with y abilities from class 2 for the multiclass to outshine singles.  those abilities ain't always available at level 1.

 

am also gonna observe how current, even with the awkward betaness people misbelieve is indicative o' the game as whole, am personal keeping our created joinable npc casters vanilla, and am also likely to do so with paladins in spite o' paladin uberness when multiclassing.  the next level powers is often too good to forgo entirely. sure, our main character might be a priest/monk or priest/paladin o' some flavor, but if am doing so, then chances are am gonna also want a pure priest in our party as well. the next power level is indeed a big advantage for single classes.

 

also, as is so often the case, the obvious solution is unpalatable. a few multiclass combos is indeed disproportionate powerful, but nerf the particular powerful multis a bit makes more sense than attempting to increase single efficacy. increase efficacy o' singles is only gonna lead to new and unexpected multiclass problems. one o' the reasons why universal talents + multiclass is such a horrible idea is 'cause o' the balancing problems which will inevitable ensue.  however, powerup the single classes is the exact same kinda stoopid. where a handful o' powerful multis is tainting the well, it makes far more sense to fix the mechanics which is making the mutis so powerful.  the singles ain't performing poorly in the beta, regardless o' what a few folks would have you believe.  can make an entire party o' single class characters and roll-stomp your way through the beta.  however, relative to a few o' the mutis, the singles cannot keep pace.  so fix the limited mechanics issues which is busting the multis is the reasonable solution.

 

also, keep in mind many/most beta folks is not casual poe players.  had to pay extra to beta.  beta testers is hardcore poe fans.  when it comes to breaking the game, hardcore folks is ideal.  with more than a few such folks having already invested hundreds o' hours in the beta, they is finding exploits and bugs which even the developers and the qa testers ain't gonna see.  is a great resource for obsidian to get so many additional testing resources who is paying for the opportunity to do so.  'course the hardcore folks is not gonna be the average user.  the hardcore folks play the game at the margins compared to ordinary purchasers. what a beta user sees as some kinda vast gulf 'tween single and multi-class efficacy could go complete unnoticed by a more casual player. the single class is able to do 3.1 dps with a _____, while a mc does 3.5.  such distinctions is frequent important to beta folks, but for most players it means battles may be a couple seconds longer for a party composed o' single classes v. one built 'round multis. so what?

 

the problem ain't the problem many is suggesting it to be.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

Some fair points. Especially the ones around how a character (and his power) evolve over the course of the game.

 

However, what even non-hardcore players will notice is the lack of ability choice when it comes to leveling up a single class character, especially casters (because they have so few passives and wizard subclasses in particular have a reduced spell catalogue). I hope we get more abilities to choose from. Can be quite generic bonuses, I wouldn't be disappointed.

 

I wouldn't want to directly boost single classes with any "single class only" rules, but I find it odd that so many abilities don't profit from higher power level properly.

 

While it's true that it can be a big advantage to reach the next tier of abilities earlier in the game, it would be even better for the balance between single classes and (potentially very powerful) multiclasses if the power level had a bigger impact on abilities. Like: why are summoned weapons not scaling with power level but char level?

Some spells are great with more power levels while most of the melee abilities are not.

 

That alone would be enough I guess.

[darkling.lithely]

Would something as simple as giving single-class characters an additional ability or talent every third or fourth level make it more balanced?

[Boeroer]

No - because the choices they can make are already very limited because there are not enough passive/active abilities to choose from for a single class. If you grant them more ability points then all the single class builds will end up having the same abilities.

 

That's because there is no big universal talent pool anymore like there was in PoE1. In PoE1 you'd only spend one ability point every second level - while the number of abilities were almost identical to Deadfire. That meant you had to think really hard and make the right decision when spending an ability point. In Deadfire you get 1 point at every level up. It's kind of an ability point inflation.

 

The best thing about multiclassing is that you widen your pallette of possible ability picks so you can have meaningful choices and powerful synergies. This is the thing of multiclassing: finding synergies.

 

In order to find good synergies with a single class and to make meaningful choices you need more abilities (now that the universal talents are gone), not necessarily more ability points to spend (could also be good once we had a lot more abilities to choose from, but not at the current state).

 

Since it's more difficult to come up with a lot of new abilities it would be the simpler solution to leave powerful synergies and cool combos and tricky choices to multiclass chars and make the single classes more effective through sheer power and faster tier progression. At the moment the impact of 1 or 2 power level is too inconsistent, obscure and generally weak though (with some exceptions of course).

Edited January 14, 2018 by Boeroer

[CottonWolf]

Like: why are summoned weapons not scaling with power level but char level?

 

Wait. Summoned weapons don't scale with power level? Why? That makes no sense at all.

[Wormerine]

 

Like: why are summoned weapons not scaling with power level but char level?

 

 

Wait. Summoned weapons don't scale with power level? Why? That makes no sense at all.

Probably to help in creating better melee/wizard combo when multiclassing. Same with ranger pet.

[JerekKruger]

Wait. Summoned weapons don't scale with power level? Why? That makes no sense at all.

 

The stated reason was to ensure that a melee/wizard multiclass wouldn't have a weaker version of those spells which seems to defeat the purpose of power level. Surely a specialised Wizard would summon more powerful versions of those weapons than one who had to split his time between Wizardry and martial training, and surely a Conjurer would summon even more powerful version of them than non-Conjurers.

[CottonWolf]

Yeah. What's even the point of the conjurer subclass then?

 

I mean, if you want to be a gish, surely you multi Fighter/Conjurer or something? Then you summon your weapons as if you were a pure wizard.

Edited January 14, 2018 by CottonWolf

[Ninjamestari]

I think the main mistake was removing universal talents, while another probably is allowing multiclass characters to have subclasses.

[Guest 4ward]

and if items would be tied to reaching a certain level. Say, you find a ring or robe whose special features only a wizard with level 15 can decipher and use, so that specialists get rewarded?

[CottonWolf]

That seems like a poor solution. The number of specific items that would then be required would be huge, and many of them would be unusable for most players due to the lack of a pure class X (especially with the smaller party size).

[JerekKruger]

Yeah. What's even the point of the conjurer subclass then?

 

I mean, if you want to be a gish, surely you multi Fighter/Conjurer or something? Then you summon your weapons as if you were a pure wizard.

 

That was exactly the situation that led me to find this out. I was creating a Devoted/Wizard using summoned weapons, and I wanted to find out exactly how they scaled with Power Level to see whether Conjurer was the best class for the build (also how useful Nature Godlike would be). A bit of testing later and I reported what I thought was a bug and was told it was intended behaviour. Seems very odd to me.

[theBalthazar]

I also think in this situation, balancing is difficult. Multiclass is extremeley difficult to balance. Multiclass with multiples associations of two classes AND multiclasses VS single class.

 

Finally, Without saying that we can not yet nerf, We avoided a faulty system like NWN2. That's not bad.

 

NWN2, where many classes were failing and little could be done to solve the problem.

 

Here There is still some leverage to maneuver.