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Erik-Dirk

Can Single Class Compete Under Current Sytem

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Single class gaining abilities faster than multi-class isn't enough? I thought the whole point of multi-class was trading power for flexibility.

That is intended yeah. But imagining a Cipher/Rogue, u get both sneak attack and soul whip at lvl 1 so you will do more damage than single rogue or cipher with auto attack.

 

Unless the +1 power level ability/spell is > the double passive u get, I don’t think single class is more powerful.

 

Presumably it will be properly balanced over the long haul as you level up so that a single class grows more powerful than the multi-class. First level abilities are irrelevant in that case.


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Single class gaining abilities faster than multi-class isn't enough? I thought the whole point of multi-class was trading power for flexibility.

That is intended yeah. But imagining a Cipher/Rogue, u get both sneak attack and soul whip at lvl 1 so you will do more damage than single rogue or cipher with auto attack.

 

Unless the +1 power level ability/spell is > the double passive u get, I don’t think single class is more powerful.

 

Presumably it will be properly balanced over the long haul as you level up so that a single class grows more powerful than the multi-class. First level abilities are irrelevant in that case.

 

 

The innate bonuses from classes will never be irrelevant.

 

Consider what is in my opinion the best melee the Paladin/Berserker. They will always have carnage and the +20 defensive boost to everything that Paladins have. They will always have Frenzy and Flames of Devotion. They will have all of this at 2nd level.  This gets them extra damage, extra penetration, fire lash, extra attack speed, extra health, and better defensive boosts than four separate abilities would yield for defense, plus their attacks become AoE due to Carnage.

 

Unless the highest level abilities are some sort of 'I win button' I don't see how a pure Berserker or a pure Paladin will be as good let alone better.

 

I'm starting to understand why AD&D restricted classes like Paladin and Barbarian from multi-classing.

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Those restrictions came from Gygax’s origins for creating the specialty classes. He saw Pallies as the LG Holy Warrior, Assassins as poor evil, Druids as the TN Priest type and Barbarians as the Chaos Warriors. Because of those restrictions he kept them out of the MC systems. You can read writings on his memoirs on the ‘why’.


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Those restrictions came from Gygax’s origins for creating the specialty classes. He saw Pallies as the LG Holy Warrior, Assassins as poor evil, Druids as the TN Priest type and Barbarians as the Chaos Warriors. Because of those restrictions he kept them out of the MC systems. You can read writings on his memoirs on the ‘why’.

 

Regardless as to the why, the net result was that everything could be fairly well balanced. Paladins had big restrictions on their roleplay actions to go along with their powerful abilities, Barbarians had big armor restrictions and if I remember correctly the original version set forth in Dragon magazine restricted all magic item use.

 

The unrestricted multi classing lets you make some real Frankenstein monsters which are fun but game breaking.

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If the Kensai/Mage couldn't get the Time Stop ability because he was restricted from taking level 9 spells, this class combo would have been a hell of a lot less popular in BG2.

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in the old ie games, spells scaled with level. Take melfs minute meteors in BG2 for example. My sorcerer at lvl 15 gets 15 meteor shots.

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I think the main mistake was removing universal talents, while another probably is allowing multiclass characters to have subclasses.

Yeah I have no idea why MC characters get to take subclasses, what is this devilry?

 

There's also the problem of subclasses being mostly trash

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There's also the problem of subclasses being mostly trash

 

Ouch, that's not something I wanted to hear. I hope they'll do something about it before release.


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The innate bonuses from classes will never be irrelevant.

 

Consider what is in my opinion the best melee the Paladin/Berserker. They will always have carnage and the +20 defensive boost to everything that Paladins have. They will always have Frenzy and Flames of Devotion. They will have all of this at 2nd level.  This gets them extra damage, extra penetration, fire lash, extra attack speed, extra health, and better defensive boosts than four separate abilities would yield for defense, plus their attacks become AoE due to Carnage.

 

Unless the highest level abilities are some sort of 'I win button' I don't see how a pure Berserker or a pure Paladin will be as good let alone better.

 

I'm starting to understand why AD&D restricted classes like Paladin and Barbarian from multi-classing.

 

 

 

The problem is that both Paladin and Berserker have very strong low-level abilities, particularly innate powers. Combining two strong abilities into a first-level character is always better than going single-class, unless they provided reduced effects separately at low levels.

 

Making low-level abilities depend on power levels might be a step towards the solution. For example, Berserker's penetration boost should not exceed his power level, or Paladin's defense boost should not exceed some multiple of his power level. Although such adjustments would also hit single-class characters, multi-classes would have at least some disadvantage at low and/or medium levels.

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I also think in this situation, balancing is difficult. Multiclass is extremeley difficult to balance. Multiclass with multiples associations of two classes AND multiclasses VS single class.

 

Finally, Without saying that we can not yet nerf, We avoided a faulty system like NWN2. That's not bad.

 

NWN2, where many classes were failing and little could be done to solve the problem.

 

Here There is still some leverage to maneuver.

 

NWN2 had to do with the sheer number of classes and combinations available, especially after the expansion packs - there were dozens! 

 

It's always been difficult to balance these, though. Even in AD&D IE games it's often clear whether you should dual, multi or single, depending on your party and class composition (e.g. how single Thieves were often on the short end of the stick).

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If the Kensai/Mage couldn't get the Time Stop ability because he was restricted from taking level 9 spells, this class combo would have been a hell of a lot less popular in BG2.

 

Isn't Kensai/Mage a dual class instead of multiclass? They are totally different concept :) And a fighter/mage cannot access to Time stop because the exp cap in Shadows of Amn.

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Yeah. What's even the point of the conjurer subclass then?

 

I mean, if you want to be a gish, surely you multi Fighter/Conjurer or something? Then you summon your weapons as if you were a pure wizard.

 

That was exactly the situation that led me to find this out. I was creating a Devoted/Wizard using summoned weapons, and I wanted to find out exactly how they scaled with Power Level to see whether Conjurer was the best class for the build (also how useful Nature Godlike would be). A bit of testing later and I reported what I thought was a bug and was told it was intended behaviour. Seems very odd to me.

 

 

It is odd. It possibly explains why so many spells are conjuration though, that had puzzled me. But it was probably necessary if you were going to have a subclass focusing on conjuration spells but have the archetypal spells of that school not actually get an increase in power.

 

Speaking of which, what does empowering a summoned weapon do at the moment? More damage? Longer duration?

Edited by CottonWolf

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If the Kensai/Mage couldn't get the Time Stop ability because he was restricted from taking level 9 spells, this class combo would have been a hell of a lot less popular in BG2.

Isn't Kensai/Mage a dual class instead of multiclass? They are totally different concept :) And a fighter/mage cannot access to Time stop because the exp cap in Shadows of Amn.

Ok firstly no it's not an entirely different concept, it's just another way of multiclassing. The idea still applies: if characters with more than one class were restricted from taking ultimate abilities, MC wouldn't be as powerful.

 

The problem here is that PoE's endgame abilities are generally mediocre, I mean even the top level spells are nothing special really.

 

Secondly, xp cap? Who the hell plays BG2 without modding out the xp cap? =)

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Speaking of which, what does empowering a summoned weapon do at the moment? More damage? Longer duration?

 

Empower increases the power level you cast at so for summoned weapons it merely increases the duration.

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It is my understanding that multiple class use of character does indeed limit your characters as much as gives them freedom. A double edged sword and 2 sides of a nickel.

 

Some beta streamers have recommended that new players do not multi because of it.


Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

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It is my understanding that multiple class use of character does indeed limit your characters as much as gives them freedom. A double edged sword and 2 sides of a nickel.

 

Some beta streamers have recommended that new players do not multi because of it.

 

Apart from making character creation more complicated there really isn't any reason to go single- rather than multi-class. It really isn't a double edged sword right now: multi-class is significantly better than single class.

 

Not sure who these beta streamers are, but I think they're paying too much attention to Obsidian's "new players are recommended to go single class" warning and not enough attention to the actual game balance.

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This is the one I am referring to:

https://youtu.be/FFUZf1eakBE


Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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Yeah a lot of what he is saying is either wrong or supposition. He mentions power levels but clearly hasn't looked in depth into how they actually affect various abilities and ends up over valuing them. He also talks about the powerful high tier abilities despite the fact that in PoE these were often lacklustre and highly effective builds could easily be made that didn't use them.

 

Also: "it can make early parts of the game harder until you're all geared up" - I think, if anything, multiclass characters will have an easier time in the early game as many of the basic abilities of a class are very powerful. I'll take having both Sneak Attack and Soul Whip over access to power level 2 and 3 abilities earlier any day.

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Yeah a lot of what he is saying is either wrong or supposition. He mentions power levels but clearly hasn't looked in depth into how they actually affect various abilities and ends up over valuing them. He also talks about the powerful high tier abilities despite the fact that in PoE these were often lacklustre and highly effective builds could easily be made that didn't use them.

 

Also: "it can make early parts of the game harder until you're all geared up" - I think, if anything, multiclass characters will have an easier time in the early game as many of the basic abilities of a class are very powerful. I'll take having both Sneak Attack and Soul Whip over access to power level 2 and 3 abilities earlier any day.

 

beta testers have difficulty recalling what deadfire were like the first time they loaded up the beta.  am recalling voiced consternation from any number o' players.  with a couple o' months and possible dozens o' hours playing, deadfire doesn't play for a seasoned beta tester and hardcore poe fan the way it is gonna play for most folks.  the video appears to be a "most folks" intro.

 

am recalling boeroer describing early struggles with deadfire until he understood the penetration mechanic.  game became easy for him once he saw the numerous penetration exploits available, but first play weren't matching expectations based 'pon reading descriptions and listening to developer feedback.  boeroer, last november, would be starting deadfire considerable ahead on the learning curve than the ordinary new player o' poe, but even he were confused by changes... and multiclassing offers more pitfalls than does penetration.  build a bad multiclass is easy and if you is new player making reasonable assumptions based on reading ability descriptions to guide your choices, you could end up suffering for it.

 

the video is from november 20 2017, near two months ago, and is likely a better representation o' what new players will face as 'posed to beta tester feedback being offered here and elsewhere.  sure, beta folks know how powerful is a few mc combinations.  beta folks know which class synergies is effective and potent.  *chuckle* now go back a couple months and recall all the wailing and hand ringing from some 'cause a paladin couldn't get sword and shield style w/o taking fighter... as if a barbarian/paladin needs sword and shield to be powerful in defense.

 

am not agreeing with all in the linked video, but the fact the video is from earliest beta is noteworthy. 

 

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Am I right in the understanding that the beta is level capped below the release cap? The progression chart seems to suggest that the idea is for single classes to pull further ahead in their speciality as the game goes on, so only having access to the lower parts of the level curve could distort perceptions. Consider the way 2e multiclassing worked in the IE games: multiclasses barely lag behind a pure class in both classes until the experience curve levels out in the low teens. In BG1 multiclasses are fairly absurd because it sits on the early part of the curve, while in BG2 the better single and dual classes pull far enough ahead in levels to shine in their niches (though non-caster single classes still tend to be pretty sad in comparison to multiclasses).

 

In general, it seems OK to me if the best builds are multiclass as long as single classes are basically viable (especially if they're being recommended to new players). If balance is going to tilt towards one or the other, give me the one with more space to explore.

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Am I right in the understanding that the beta is level capped below the release cap? The progression chart seems to suggest that the idea is for single classes to pull further ahead in their speciality as the game goes on, so only having access to the lower parts of the level curve could distort perceptions. Consider the way 2e multiclassing worked in the IE games: multiclasses barely lag behind a pure class in both classes until the experience curve levels out in the low teens. In BG1 multiclasses are fairly absurd because it sits on the early part of the curve, while in BG2 the better single and dual classes pull far enough ahead in levels to shine in their niches (though non-caster single classes still tend to be pretty sad in comparison to multiclasses).

 

In general, it seems OK to me if the best builds are multiclass as long as single classes are basically viable (especially if they're being recommended to new players). If balance is going to tilt towards one or the other, give me the one with more space to explore.

 

Yep. It's nowhere near the whole progression. Up to level 20 in the full game. So, yeah, we can't be sure what the balance look like in the endgame, but it's also true that the majority of the game isn't the endgame.

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Am I right in the understanding that the beta is level capped below the release cap? The progression chart seems to suggest that the idea is for single classes to pull further ahead in their speciality as the game goes on, so only having access to the lower parts of the level curve could distort perceptions. Consider the way 2e multiclassing worked in the IE games: multiclasses barely lag behind a pure class in both classes until the experience curve levels out in the low teens. In BG1 multiclasses are fairly absurd because it sits on the early part of the curve, while in BG2 the better single and dual classes pull far enough ahead in levels to shine in their niches (though non-caster single classes still tend to be pretty sad in comparison to multiclasses).

 

In general, it seems OK to me if the best builds are multiclass as long as single classes are basically viable (especially if they're being recommended to new players). If balance is going to tilt towards one or the other, give me the one with more space to explore.

 

Yep. It's nowhere near the whole progression. Up to level 20 in the full game. So, yeah, we can't be sure what the balance look like in the endgame, but it's also true that the majority of the game isn't the endgame.

 

 

Yeah, even if the scaling works higher up the curve, it could be a problem for a lot of the game. And my impression from people in the beta is that higher power levels don't give a significant boost (at least at the levels in the beta), so it sounds like the prospects for the main advantage of single classes balancing out in the end are not great.

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And my impression from people in the beta is that higher power levels don't give a significant boost (at least at the levels in the beta), so it sounds like the prospects for the main advantage of single classes balancing out in the end are not great.

 

It varies between spells and abilities. For summoned weapons their near useless whereas for multiple projectile spells like Minoletta's various Missiles they can be quite powerful. One of the few single class characters that looks like it could have potential (once casting times are tweaked to not be awful) is a Nature Godlike Evoker using these spells (nature Godlike for easy access to +2 power levels).

 

However even when power levels do benefit an ability a lot they're a little wonky due to having cutoff points. There will be times when activating my Nature Godlike's racial wouldn't be worth it since the +2 power levels won't be enough to add anything to my spells. Then I level up once and suddenly it becomes worht doing again. This is, in my opinion, bad design.

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Yeah a lot of what he is saying is either wrong or supposition. He mentions power levels but clearly hasn't looked in depth into how they actually affect various abilities and ends up over valuing them. He also talks about the powerful high tier abilities despite the fact that in PoE these were often lacklustre and highly effective builds could easily be made that didn't use them.

 

Also: "it can make early parts of the game harder until you're all geared up" - I think, if anything, multiclass characters will have an easier time in the early game as many of the basic abilities of a class are very powerful. I'll take having both Sneak Attack and Soul Whip over access to power level 2 and 3 abilities earlier any day.

It's kinda an example that goes with my Deadfire post. Thank you for sharing this info, because it proves that (as Gromnir said) there are beta testers who are making videos and who don't know the difference and just don't know period.

 

Edit: Actually, I wish this convo was part of the thread I created because it proves that some fans/beta testers maybe do not necessarily know what us the best feedback to give and what the rest of the community needs. The guy on the video unintentionally misleading people is good enough evidence I suppose.

Edited by SonicMage117

Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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It's kinda an example that goes with my Deadfire post. Thank you for sharing this info, because it proves that (as Gromnir said) there are beta testers who are making videos and who don't know the difference and just don't know period.

 

Well you have to bear in mind that the YouTuber you linked is, if not a professional YouTuber, certainly isn't one who's simply posting videos for fun. He wants traffic and you don't get traffic by appearing uncertain. Hence his title "Definitive Guide to Multiclassing - Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire" (no idea how it could be definitive given the game is still in beta).

 

Notice also that this video was released a few days after the beta was live. Not enough time to do detailed testing but just in time to ride the release hype wave and maximise views.

 

So when it comes to understanding the game well, these sorts of YouTubers aren't worth much. Watch them to see what the game looks like by all means, but they'll never come close to people like MaxQuest here.

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