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Erik-Dirk

Can Single Class Compete Under Current Sytem

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"Definitive" and "Beta" in the same sentence should be a sufficient warning i think :w00t:

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I still think that multiclassing subclasses would be great. A Streetfighter/Assassin could be fun.

 

It doubt that it solves the power balance problem between single- and multi-class characters, but maybe if all characters had to choose two classes it would. Purist could choose Rogue/Rogue or whatever.

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Maybe instead of subclasses from the get go we should have them enabled after a certain level for single class characters only adding more benefits that drawbacks of course.

Something that rewards single class progression.

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interesting discussion. Never tried multiclassing in BG since I thought it was overly complicated for me. Nowadays Id definately play a mixed type of character and Im looking forward to multiclasiing in Poe 2. Like I played rogue/archer/mage in Tyranny. That was really kewl.

 

I guess they have to maje thise high tier abilities really badass to make singlecladding wirth it.

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Maybe instead of subclasses from the get go we should have them enabled after a certain level for single class characters only adding more benefits that drawbacks of course.Something that rewards single class progression.

It could work, but that would mean changing subclasses into specialisations. Not a terrible idea, but would take whole lot of redesign work. I do like the idea of subclasses, and I am all for negative effects of a subclass - they just need some more love.

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I still think the solution is to get rid of single class characters entirely. They're vestigial at this point. Just have full advancement in two classes. There are enough pure martial classes that you could build a roughly "non-magical" fighter (Fighter/Rogue) if you wanted to, and everything else is covered.

Edited by CottonWolf

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Eh? Why that? Actually having single classes adds choice and does not remove it. Even if they happen to be less powerful than several multiclass combos they are still viable choices. The choice is basically "faster ability progression and more powerful endgame abilites vs. powerful synergies and two resource pools". Removing them does nothing good for anybody. If you think they are bad - just don't play them in your game.

 

If you would only allow multiclass chars then it would be wiser to remove classes alltogether and design a classless system (like Josh - and me - like them best anyways).

 

At the moment it's just a matter of balancing. And in my opinion the problem can be easily solved with a) shorter casting times (for our poor single class casters) and b) proper design and implementation of Power Level and how it influences ALL abilites in a meaningful way. That should do the trick.

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Yep. Based upon the PoE record, PoE2 will be tweaked and rebalanced several times to correct for factors such as particularly favorable multi-class synergies. It'll all work itself out over time.


"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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In the current beta no, but that is mostly because synergy between martial classes is better than Level 4-5 martial abilities and that casters suck with their casting times being too long to be useful. In the main game it depends on if Level 8-9 abilities are very good(Level 8 PoE spells were good imo), if they manage to get casting speed to decent levels through patching, and the (probable)changes to levelcap made by new content. Given that we're playing the second iteration of the beta and how different PoE was from the early beta, I would hesitate to make assumptions on what the release balance, let alone final balance, of Deadfire is.


"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

"I'm all for killing dogs in film." - algroth

 

"Iselmyr is the one who did GOMAD... Aloth is lactose intolerant" -ShadySands

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At the moment it's just a matter of balancing. And in my opinion the problem can be easily solved with a) shorter casting times (for our poor single class casters) and b) proper design and implementation of Power Level and how it influences ALL abilites in a meaningful way. That should do the trick.

As I mentioned earlier, Passive abilities definitely need to be included in this and treated separately since multi class will have access to  6 additional tiers as well as points to spend on them.

Cipher is not even the best multiclass combo however with biting whip you do 40% extra damage. This means you need to reduce active abilities by 28% just to bring them down to the same level. Given you'll do 140% damage on an auto attack we might find some abilities do a lower DPS. (At this point the Multiclass has access to only 2 additional tiers)

In the current beta no, but that is mostly because synergy between martial classes is better than Level 4-5 martial abilities and that casters suck with their casting times being too long to be useful. In the main game it depends on if Level 8-9 abilities are very good(Level 8 PoE spells were good imo), if they manage to get casting speed to decent levels through patching, and the (probable)changes to levelcap made by new content. Given that we're playing the second iteration of the beta and how different PoE was from the early beta, I would hesitate to make assumptions on what the release balance, let alone final balance, of Deadfire is.

I don't think it matters how powerful the 8-9 abilities are. If new players are recommended to play singles class and they are very noticeably weaker for everything but the end game then this is a terrible design to bring in new players.

If the access to higher tiers is supposed to improve single class then higher tiers need to be noticeably better throughout the game. However I don't really like this as it  means you would rarely, if ever, pick a lower tier ability at a later point in the game (I.e. less versatility)

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I don't think it matters how powerful the 8-9 abilities are.

Given that the major disadvantage of multiclass characters is not being able to get those abilities, it very much does matter.

If new players are recommended to play singles class and they are very noticeably weaker for everything but the end game then this is a terrible design to bring in new players.

Single class characters are easier to manage and get higher tiers quicker, which is better for new players than a more complicated multiclass.

If the access to higher tiers is supposed to improve single class then higher tiers need to be noticeably better throughout the game. However I don't really like this as it  means you would rarely, if ever, pick a lower tier ability at a later point in the game (I.e. less versatility)

They already are better and for most cases there is already little incentive to pick up a lower tier ability when high level abilities are available. The only situations I can think of right now are some of the passives, at every level in the Beta I find myself picking an ability of the highest available level because they are better for what I need.
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"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

"I'm all for killing dogs in film." - algroth

 

"Iselmyr is the one who did GOMAD... Aloth is lactose intolerant" -ShadySands

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@KaineParker, don't be a tool and break up peoples paragraphs to make them look like an idiot, the paragraph was obviously supposed to be read as a whole.

 

I don't think it matters how powerful the 8-9 abilities are. If new players are recommended to play singles class and they are very noticeably weaker for everything but the end game then this is a terrible design to bring in new players.

 

 

I don't think it matters how powerful the 8-9 abilities are.

Given that the major disadvantage of multiclass characters is not being able to get those abilities, it very much does matter.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think it matters how powerful the 8-9 abilities are. If new players are recommended to play singles class and they are very noticeably weaker for everything but the end game then this is a terrible design to bring in new players.

 

 

I regards to your comment that multiclass characters are more complicated to build, therefore they should be more powerful. This is currently false. A cipher multiclass is worthwhile for just the 40% damage boost, there is nothing complicate or clever about this. Just a significant power boost.

 

In regards to higher tier active abilities being more powerful your probably right. However I don't believe it's the synergy between abilities that currently make multiclass characters more powerful; passives are the main problem, especially the over powered low level abilities like carnage which a multiclass will often get between 1.6x to 2x the number of options, as well as the points to spend on them

 

Edited by Erik-Dirk

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Cipher is not even the best multiclass combo however with biting whip you do 40% extra damage. This means you need to reduce active abilities by 28% just to bring them down to the same level. Given you'll do 140% damage on an auto attack we might find some abilities do a lower DPS. (At this point the Multiclass has access to only 2 additional tiers)

 

The simple solution is to make Biting Whip depend on power levels, just like every other strong low-level abilities. Like a bonus of power level times 5% instead of flat 40%.

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Yes - or, if pure scaling with power level is too weak at lvl 1, do something like 10% + x% per Power Level.


Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Eh? Why that? Actually having single classes adds choice and does not remove it. Even if they happen to be less powerful than several multiclass combos they are still viable choices. The choice is basically "faster ability progression and more powerful endgame abilites vs. powerful synergies and two resource pools". Removing them does nothing good for anybody. If you think they are bad - just don't play them in your game.

 

If you would only allow multiclass chars then it would be wiser to remove classes alltogether and design a classless system (like Josh - and me - like them best anyways).

 

At the moment it's just a matter of balancing. And in my opinion the problem can be easily solved with a) shorter casting times (for our poor single class casters) and b) proper design and implementation of Power Level and how it influences ALL abilites in a meaningful way. That should do the trick.

 

I don't have a philosophical objection to them. I have a practical one. (But yes, I'd generally prefer a classless system too.) My issue is generally that I can't see how you can balance the power of passives across multi/single classes. Passives are (arguably) the most powerful abilities on the tree, and multis get full progression in both classes passives. And as many of them represent step changes, you can't even scale them with power level - partial downgrading of afflications doesn't make sense. Even if the level 8/9 spells are amazing, for most of the game they won't have them, single classes surely won't be able to make up the difference that multis get through their passives (and that's putting aside that ranger pets and summoned weapons, and possibly other things I don't know about, don't depend on power level, making multis built around those concepts even more broken).

 

If they want to keep single classes in as an option, fine. But seriously, give new players recommended multiclass combinations to choose from. Don't make them play a single class character, that's the worst possible outcome. Auto-level up is already a thing if they want to avoid the complexity of skill choice.

Edited by CottonWolf

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Eh? Why that? Actually having single classes adds choice and does not remove it. Even if they happen to be less powerful than several multiclass combos they are still viable choices. The choice is basically "faster ability progression and more powerful endgame abilites vs. powerful synergies and two resource pools". Removing them does nothing good for anybody. If you think they are bad - just don't play them in your game.

 

If you would only allow multiclass chars then it would be wiser to remove classes alltogether and design a classless system (like Josh - and me - like them best anyways).

 

At the moment it's just a matter of balancing. And in my opinion the problem can be easily solved with a) shorter casting times (for our poor single class casters) and b) proper design and implementation of Power Level and how it influences ALL abilites in a meaningful way. That should do the trick.

That's right! :yes:

And I'd like to add that single class characters add strategic depth and variety first and foremost to our parties of five in PoE2. When making a party, you may need a full-on healing priest or a chanter with songs that resonate deeply enough, as it were.


*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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 But seriously, give new players recommended multiclass combinations to choose from. Don't make them play a single class character, that's the worst possible outcome. Auto-level up is already a thing if they want to avoid the complexity of skill choice.

 

True. I don't like that new player single class recommendation at the start. In fact, it's a bit silly, since the choices for a single class character is pretty steep in total (counting gear choices and which party member to create nice synergies with, and so forth). I'm not even sure they need that kind of warning at all. 


*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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I don't have a philosophical objection to them. I have a practical one. (But yes, I'd generally prefer a classless system too.) My issue is generally that I can't see how you can balance the power of passives across multi/single classes. Passives are (arguably) the most powerful abilities on the tree, and multis get full progression in both classes passives. And as many of them represent step changes, you can't even scale them with power level - partial downgrading of afflications doesn't make sense. Even if the level 8/9 spells are amazing, for most of the game they won't have them, single classes surely won't be able to make up the difference that multis get through their passives (and that's putting aside that ranger pets and summoned weapons, and possibly other things I don't know about, don't depend on power level, making multis built around those concepts even more broken).

 

I don't see why some passives could not scale with power levels. If, for some reason unknown to me, abrupt changes looked yet attractive, a stepwise approach that approximates continuous power level scaling might be implemented.

 

Consider the following example for paladin's deep faith: grant some basic innate bonus (say +6 deep faith), and offer remarkable selectable upgrades upon reaching certain power levels (+6 on power level 4, +8 on 8 ). This allows only single-class paladins to take the last upgrade, which also matches the other valuable suggestion regarding powerful endgame abilities.

Edited by Raenvan

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How would you scale Carnage via power levels?

 

As Carnage is probably one of the worst offenders when it comes to power spiking from multiclassing I'd be curious as to how you'd adjust that.

 

I agree that something should be done but balancing all the possible permutations is going to be a real pain.

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One could scale the damage done to nearby foes with power levels. Why does it need to be a flat percentage of the primary damage?

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I've finally got to spend some time with the beta and single class is viable but not competitive with some of the multi class synergies.

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@KaineParker, don't be a tool and break up peoples paragraphs to make them look like an idiot, the paragraph was obviously supposed to be read as a whole.

I did read it as a whole, it's just easier to reply to spefic points by breaking it up.

I regards to your comment that multiclass characters are more complicated to build, therefore they should be more powerful. This is currently false. A cipher multiclass is worthwhile for just the 40% damage boost, there is nothing complicate or clever about this. Just a significant power boost.

First of all I don't think multiclasses should be more powerful, rather I think they should be more versatile and equally powerful. Secondly yes, Cipher's Soul Whip is good for a damage dealer as a passive, but it's still more complicated making a cipher/rogue specializing in melee attacks and shred spells than making a straight rogue or cipher given you have to choose from two different ability trees and manage two different resource pools. Complication is built into multiclassing itself.

In regards to higher tier active abilities being more powerful your probably right. However I don't believe it's the synergy between abilities that currently make multiclass characters more powerful; passives are the main problem, especially the over powered low level abilities like carnage which a multiclass will often get between 1.6x to 2x the number of options, as well as the points to spend on them

I agree passives are an issue, so I like Boeroer's suggestion of having passives be A + b(powerlevel) instead of a flat number like 50% sneak attack or 15% like weapon specialization. That way single class gains a quick and consistent lead over multiclass both in powers of individual abilities and in terms of their passive.

"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

"I'm all for killing dogs in film." - algroth

 

"Iselmyr is the one who did GOMAD... Aloth is lactose intolerant" -ShadySands

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In regards to higher tier active abilities being more powerful your probably right. However I don't believe it's the synergy between abilities that currently make multiclass characters more powerful; passives are the main problem, especially the over powered low level abilities like carnage which a multiclass will often get between 1.6x to 2x the number of options, as well as the points to spend on them

I agree passives are an issue, so I like Boeroer's suggestion of having passives be A + b(powerlevel) instead of a flat number like 50% sneak attack or 15% like weapon specialization. That way single class gains a quick and consistent lead over multiclass both in powers of individual abilities and in terms of their passive.

 

That doesn't work because most of the really good passives have step change effects, like +1 engagement or downgrading all afflications of a certain type one level.

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I agree passives are an issue, so I like Boeroer's suggestion of having passives be A + b(powerlevel) instead of a flat number like 50% sneak attack or 15% like weapon specialization. That way single class gains a quick and consistent lead over multiclass both in powers of individual abilities and in terms of their passive.

 

That doesn't work because most of the really good passives have step change effects, like +1 engagement or downgrading all afflications of a certain type one level.

 

Would you please specify which step-effect passives are you referring to. I'm interested if they could be made power level dependent in a continuous manner.

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Like Resistances for example.


Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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