Graze back in

[draego]

Josh talking about grazes

 

Graze look like they are back in although he does not want to commit to anything specific so it looks like it will be different than POE1 grazes. They will be changing the abilities that grant graze to something else. Graze range will change to a 25 pt range instead of 35 in POE1. it seems like they are going to address the graze CC issue in POE1 but he doesn't elaborate on how. Good stuff should make beta interesting. He doesnt say if this will happen in next beta update

Edited December 1, 2017 by draego

[Climhazzard]

That's nice to hear, maybe my priest's duty will evolve from just casting dire blessing and devotions for the faithful.  Looking forward to the speed, recovery, and penetration changes too.

[Gromnir]

will be interesting to see how grazes is returned, 'cause the "hard cc" issue would obvious remain if all that is done is changing the window of opportunity for those grazes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Climhazzard]

will be interesting to see how grazes is returned, 'cause the "hard cc" issue would obvious remain if all that is done is changing the window of opportunity for those grazes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I think he also mentioned something about plans for CC.

[dunehunter]

 

will be interesting to see how grazes is returned, 'cause the "hard cc" issue would obvious remain if all that is done is changing the window of opportunity for those grazes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I think he also mentioned something about plans for CC.

 

 

My guess is Affliction downgrade when graze for CCs.

[KDubya]

The easy solution to hard CC grazing is to have a graze drop one level of affliction. A paralyze that grazes becomes an immobilized becomes a hobbled and so on.

 

I'm curious as to what will replace grazes for Fighters who had a few abilities like Disciplined Strikes and Confident Aim that were all about Grazing.

[Boeroer]

What happens when a tier-1-affliction like hobbled grazes? No cc at all or lowered duration?

[Climhazzard]

The easy solution to hard CC grazing is to have a graze drop one level of affliction. A paralyze that grazes becomes an immobilized becomes a hobbled and so on.

 

I'm curious as to what will replace grazes for Fighters who had a few abilities like Disciplined Strikes and Confident Aim that were all about Grazing.

 

 

Intuitive would still be really good as is, in fact it would be better since the miss>graze isn't currently working.  Even if a CC downgrades having a 100% chance to graze with intuitive would just be really good for a lot of abilities.  Take something like Torment's reach which won't activate it's AoE if it misses the primary target (aren't a lot of cipher powers like this too?), or abilities that don't really have an affliction but still something useful like the pull on into the fray, and finally abilities with effects that aren't classified by afflictions like arcane dampener or the deflection debuf on confounding blind.  

 

Fighter will still be the best multiclass for increasing the reliability of your abilities.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Climhazzard

[anfoglia]

Reducing the level of affliction seems like a reasonable solution to the hard-CC/graze problem. Another option, which I think might be too dramatic a change, would be to make hard-CC exclusive to long cast abilities. That way the extra significance of the graze (compared to an auto-attack graze) would be paid for by a substantial time investment.

[KDubya]

Reducing the level of affliction seems like a reasonable solution to the hard-CC/graze problem. Another option, which I think might be too dramatic a change, would be to make hard-CC exclusive to long cast abilities. That way the extra significance of the graze (compared to an auto-attack graze) would be paid for by a substantial time investment.

 

Not sure I'd be in favor of punishing casting a CC with a longer cast time. No one likes trying for a long time to cast a spell while trying to avoid being interrupted.

 

With Ciphers I look first at cast time, if its not 3 seconds it needs to be really good or just really cool like Mind Blades to get a pick. With direct competition for ability picks, especially with a multi-class, there is just no room for a slow cast power. It gets even worse once you start wearing armor.

 

Lots of powers have a cast time + recovery time that is essentially the same as the affliction time. Who is getting paralyzed, you or the target?

Edited December 1, 2017 by KDubya

[Answermancer]

Very excited about this change, I wish I could have participated in the live stream chat since it looks like they were answering questions. Damn you work!

 

I personally really like the idea mentioned here and elsewhere about downgrading afflictions, although I'm also wondering about what happens to level 1 afflictions. I think lowered duration would be fine though, they're generally really not that powerful. I'd far prefer that to no affliction at all, but then I'm all about the sneak attacks so...

[drgonzo]

I like the removal of grazes. Makes combat clearer and easier to follow with fewer status effects flying around all over the place. Too bad..

[Skaddix]

Spellcasters who want to drop fireballs and the such can celebrate....now about that casting time.

[JerekKruger]

That's good news. I liked the graze system a lot and felt it was a shame it was removed. The idea of downgrading afflictions by one level on a graze seems like a good solution, and I'm happy for tier 1 afflictions to simply fail if they graze.

[Clean&Clear]

I like the removal of grazes. Makes combat clearer and easier to follow with fewer status effects flying around all over the place. Too bad..

 

Grazes are not coming back in full scale like they used to be in PoE1, just changing how they work for CCs and so. I also like the removal of grazes on normal attacks and how certain abilities now focus on grazing as a benefit.

 

EDIT: Nevermind, watched the stream again now and I must say I'm not too sure about the idea of bringing grazes back on a larger scale, I like the clear distinction between hitting and missing and I like it when actually hitting something has a solid impact, and grazes make it feel kind of meh, but I don't want to judge in advance. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Clean&Clear

[Gromnir]

I like the removal of grazes. Makes combat clearer and easier to follow with fewer status effects flying around all over the place. Too bad..

 

from our pov, the removal o' grazes woulda' done as you suggest, but grazes weren't removed... not really.  am not certain game would be better w/o grazes, but would be cleaner.  however, the reality is you current have deadfire grazes even w/o the forthcoming beta build changes. fighters, for example, may choose to add graze capability via talents, and casting of dire blessing by a priest gives everybody affected by the buff graze capability.

 

'course the reason why dire blessing is so useful at the moment is exact why it were removed.  grazes for most weapon users adds damage, but nothing game changing.  on the other hand, a party caster affected by dire blessing gets his/her grazes back too, and serious debilitating afflictions do graze.  six seconds o' graze domination or petrification or whatnot is nevertheless quite powerful when the alternative is a complete miss.  return grazes and that means enemies with their own hard cc and afflictions is gonna once again be serious trouble for a party. stun-locked party? 

 

yeah, the afflictions mechanic, once folks figure out how to use it, will help prevent the pain o' enemy hard cc/affliction grazes.  longer cast times also means now useful interrupts will be vital.  mechanics is evolving.  nevertheless, the pivotal complaint which caused the removal o' grazes would seem to be in danger o' making a return... which is why we asked josh the question.  

 

obsidian is aware o' the problems.  were our main concern.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sedrefilos]

If the game's gonna be as swingy as the old ones, then better bring graze back or make miss a low chance.

[CottonWolf]

What happens when a tier-1-affliction like hobbled grazes? No cc at all or lowered duration?

 

It should be no CC at all. That'd the cost of using a base level ability. If you can graze and still get CC with a tier 1, assuming that it has a correspondingly lower cast time, that'd be strictly better than the upgrade in a lot of circumstances.

[Katarack21]

Is there such a thing as a tier one hard c.c.? I thought tier 1 afflictions were all fairly minor.

[JerekKruger]

Is there such a thing as a tier one hard c.c.? I thought tier 1 afflictions were all fairly minor.

 

There was a list of (most) Afflictions along with their tiers in another thread and the only hard crowd control ones were tier 3, and softer crowd control (things like immobilization) were tier 2. So yes, tier 1 are fairly minor.

[Lamppost in Winter]

 

Well, it's official.

I really have to wonder what happened to the "Graze downgrades Affliction" concept? I still think that's a really good idea.

[daven]

Why did they remove grazes in the first place?

 

Wasn't it because of feedback? now they are changing it back because of feedback? Maybe Obsidian should just stick with their vision and get on with it. Instead of being like a pendulum with every mechanic in the game.

[dragubaba]

Why did they remove grazes in the first place?

 

Wasn't it because of feedback? now they are changing it back because of feedback? Maybe Obsidian should just stick with their vision and get on with it. Instead of being like a pendulum with every mechanic in the game.

You have a point there. This is getting ridiculous. You start listening to every single would-be-game-developers and the resulting mess is unplayable. User feedback is important sure but every single critisism comes from personal preference and you simply can't make everyone happy. Maybe somebody needs to cut off Josh's internet connection for the rest of the development. Edited December 5, 2017 by dragubaba

[Wormerine]

 

Why did they remove grazes in the first place?

 

Wasn't it because of feedback? now they are changing it back because of feedback? Maybe Obsidian should just stick with their vision and get on with it. Instead of being like a pendulum with every mechanic in the game.

You have a point there. This is getting ridiculous. You start listening to every single would-be-game-developers and the resulting mess is unplayable. User feedback is important sure but every single critisism comes from personal preference and you simply can't make everyone happy. Maybe somebody needs to cut off Josh's internet connection for the rest of the development.

 

Which reminds me of an interesting conclusion of a review for "Shape of Water" I read recently:

 

"A good artist doesn't necessarily set out to please the audience. A good artist sets out to please himself. Sometimes the two things merge, and in the best of del Toro's films, they do."

 

So Josh, what do YOU like?

[Lamppost in Winter]

 

"A good artist doesn't necessarily set out to please the audience. A good artist sets out to please himself. Sometimes the two things merge, and in the best of del Toro's films, they do."

 

So Josh, what do YOU like?

 

 

"Deadfire cancelled, Josh Sawyer's Bike Simulator 2018 greenlit"