Starting back at level 1?

[Messier-31]

I'd rather have a hackneyed explanation for going back to level 1, than be forced into an inferior game experience for the next 50 hours fighting super saiyan bandits and armies of dragons because they couldn't come up with a good reason. 

 

[rheingold]

It would

 

I'd rather have a hackneyed explanation for going back to level 1, than be forced into an inferior game experience for the next 50 hours fighting super saiyan bandits and armies of dragons because they couldn't come up with a good reason. 

It would be a really tacky solution, starting at level one. Which is why I wanted a new character starting at level one. The problem is while Obs make fantastic games they also make some really silly design decisions which paint them into a corner. I'd say dropping the watcher to level one would be on par with choosing to have a mid game expansion like White March. You end up complicating things needlessly and end up having to compromise on issues like story and balance. It would have been so much better if WM had been an end game expansion from every point.

 

It's the same with Deadfire, either a new character at level 1 which would be simplest or a mid to high level watcher (more complicated). But it's their decision and if they choose to make life more difficult for themselves, well it's their choice.

Though a high level campaign doesn't have to be bad, it can be done properly - like Mask, but it is tough, specially to think of some justification of why common bandits are a higher level than an archmage. Still it's no more hackneyed than dropping a 16th level watcher down to 1st level.

BTW I think a compromise might be in order - I'd say 8-10th level would be a good place to start, much like Shadows of Amm.

Edited January 27, 2017 by rheingold

[ShadySands]

"Then I'll start back at one"

-Brian McKnight

[Kid Presentable]

I'd rather have a hackneyed explanation for going back to level 1, than be forced into an inferior game experience for the next 50 hours fighting super saiyan bandits and armies of dragons because they couldn't come up with a good reason. 

Hear, hear!

Edited January 27, 2017 by Kid Presentable

[IndiraLightfoot]

It would

 

I'd rather have a hackneyed explanation for going back to level 1, than be forced into an inferior game experience for the next 50 hours fighting super saiyan bandits and armies of dragons because they couldn't come up with a good reason. 

It would be a really tacky solution, starting at level one. Which is why I wanted a new character starting at level one. The problem is while Obs make fantastic games they also make some really silly design decisions which paint them into a corner. I'd say dropping the watcher to level one would be on par with choosing to have a mid game expansion like White March. You end up complicating things needlessly and end up having to compromise on issues like story and balance. It would have been so much better if WM had been an end game expansion from every point.

 

It's the same with Deadfire, either a new character at level 1 which would be simplest or a mid to high level watcher (more complicated). But it's their decision and if they choose to make life more difficult for themselves, well it's their choice.

Though a high level campaign doesn't have to be bad, it can be done properly - like Mask, but it is tough, specially to think of some justification of why common bandits are a higher level than an archmage. Still it's no more hackneyed than dropping a 16th level watcher down to 1st level.

BTW I think a compromise might be in order - I'd say 8-10th level would be a good place to start, much like Shadows of Amm.

This is exactly how I feel. Although I'd love to start all over, level 8-10 makes sense. Still, in NWN2, they had a lobby setting the level to 18 if I recall correctly, but then you had wondrous Super Gnolls and ordinary barrels and dirt piles in the first village containing +5 items.

[Enoch]

 

BTW I think a compromise might be in order - I'd say 8-10th level would be a good place to start, much like Shadows of Amm.

 

The problem with 8-10 is that this is not 2nd ed. AD&D.  Classes in AD&D were basically on-rails.  Rolling an 8th-level character doesn't take a whole lot more time or thought than does rolling a 1st-level character.  All you're adding from the level-ups in BG2's system are weapon proficiency dots, populating spellbooks for Wiz/Sorc, and allocating Thief skills.  And, really, of those, spell selection for Sorcerors is the only one that is seriously consequential to the character build. 

 

Is Obsidian really going to ask a player new to the system to pick 8 levels worth of Talents, Spells, Skills, and Class Features, before they've even played the game?  (And I note again that, even for Pillars veterans, the game mechanics are going to be changing.  We'll likely have to re-build any imported characters from the ground up.) 

[IndiraLightfoot]

Enoch, those are very good points. In MotB, it was a daunting task even for D&D vets to roll up a new character all the way to lvl 18, so they really need to get a lot of stuff right. 

[rheingold]

They are valid points, but still not enough (I think) to justify the ridiculous situation of a watcher who defeated dragons and arch mages, and chatted to gods becoming a first level noob. Also, there is always a learning curve, in fact pillars was very steep, even coming from a d&d background. They just have to be seriously jacked when it comes tutorials and the character creation screen. I might add, that the fact that there is a steep learning curve is a plus for many people, rather than say dragon age inquisition. People who play these games tend to like the inherent complexity.

[Amentep]

Wouldn't they be able to create a default "start at level umpteen" character template anyhow - for those who don't want to be fiddledy about it?

 

EDIT: I don't care if we do start over, ultimately its an abstraction and I'm more interested in carrying over choices than stats - particularly if the system is heavily revamped.  But I don't think it'd be difficult to let a new player start in with a 'pre-rolled' character type rather than forcing the person to make 18 levels of choices.

[Yonjuro]

They are valid points, but still not enough (I think) to justify the ridiculous situation of a watcher who defeated dragons and arch mages, and chatted to gods becoming a first level noob. Also, there is always a learning curve, in fact pillars was very steep, even coming from a d&d background. They just have to be seriously jacked when it comes tutorials and the character creation screen. I might add, that the fact that there is a steep learning curve is a plus for many people, rather than say dragon age inquisition. People who play these games tend to like the inherent complexity.

 

  I agree. If I import a character, I want the character to have the experience of the previous game and the associated abilities.  If you are playing a continuation of the PoE character's story, the abilities of the character are part of who the character is (especially in an RPG where stats and abilities are a major component of the character's identity). Otherwise it is like playing a different character who, coincidentally, has the same name as a character in another game.

 

 For new players, a template can be used to set attributes and the player can make changes if they want to dig in and understand the game systems. 

[Gromnir]

am thinking the developers is gonna be less concerned 'bout learning curve issue for new players than is enoch. make game a bit easier at start? default builds?  will be less an issue with respec available.  if folks get into game and realize they chose poorly, they can respec outta a bad build.

 

our concern/belief is there will be motivation for developers to grant at least 4 more levels than has been available previous. 7th level spells and abilities were the ceiling in poe. the sequel mentality has us almost expecting level 9 options, though level 8 at the very least.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited January 27, 2017 by Gromnir

[morhilane]

Wouldn't they be able to create a default "start at level umpteen" character template anyhow - for those who don't want to be fiddledy about it?

 

EDIT: I don't care if we do start over, ultimately its an abstraction and I'm more interested in carrying over choices than stats - particularly if the system is heavily revamped.  But I don't think it'd be difficult to let a new player start in with a 'pre-rolled' character type rather than forcing the person to make 18 levels of choices.

 

How many templates do you think 8 classes +  multiclassing + 2 sub-classes (first stretch goal) will have to result in?

 

I don't think we will be able to import our Watcher as is into POEII, the classes are going to get reworked to get multiclassing and sub-classes in which will make one-on-one mapping impossible between the two games, you'll have to manually level up to level 16....

[Amentep]

 

Wouldn't they be able to create a default "start at level umpteen" character template anyhow - for those who don't want to be fiddledy about it?

 

EDIT: I don't care if we do start over, ultimately its an abstraction and I'm more interested in carrying over choices than stats - particularly if the system is heavily revamped.  But I don't think it'd be difficult to let a new player start in with a 'pre-rolled' character type rather than forcing the person to make 18 levels of choices.

 

How many templates do you think 8 classes +  multiclassing + 2 sub-classes (first stretch goal) will have to result in?

 

I don't think we will be able to import our Watcher as is into POEII, the classes are going to get reworked to get multiclassing and sub-classes in which will make one-on-one mapping impossible between the two games, you'll have to manually level up to level 16....

 

 

As long as you can't take a subclass until level umpteen+1, then doing 8 class templates would be all you would need.  There'd be no need to make a template for multiclass (particularly if Multi-Class is like D&D 3.X).  If someone wanted to start with a new multiclass, they don't have to pick a template OR import a character. 

[Yonjuro]

 

....

 

 

As long as you can't take a subclass until level umpteen+1, then doing 8 class templates would be all you would need.  There'd be no need to make a template for multiclass (particularly if Multi-Class is like D&D 3.X).  If someone wanted to start with a new multiclass, they don't have to pick a template OR import a character. 

 

 

 

 Yes. Also, in PoE1, the companion characters match your level when you meet them, so somebody is already making the templates for whichever classes have companion characters. 

[draego]

Level 1 confirmed in the new backer update. I think i like that

[Aramintai]

Level 1 confirmed, now they'll have to explain how other returning companions were level drained as well. Probably gonna stuff them all in the stronghold at that time. So stupid, imho. The only way I'd be ok with it if they decided to rework all abilities and spells and level pacing. That way I can understand the need to level up again. 

[floredon]

well our souls were stolen, that might explain it.

[morhilane]

Level 1 confirmed, now they'll have to explain how other returning companions were level drained as well. Probably gonna stuff them all in the stronghold at that time. So stupid, imho. The only way I'd be ok with it if they decided to rework all abilities and spells and level pacing. That way I can understand the need to level up again. 

 

But souls are delicious *nom*

[Aramintai]

 

Level 1 confirmed, now they'll have to explain how other returning companions were level drained as well. Probably gonna stuff them all in the stronghold at that time. So stupid, imho. The only way I'd be ok with it if they decided to rework all abilities and spells and level pacing. That way I can understand the need to level up again. 

 

But souls are delicious *nom*

 

I hope Orlan baby's gonna be ok, I don't think it's even level 1 being a baby, lol.

[AwesomeOcelot]

How is it going to work? God induced amnesia or alzheimer's? Why not just start with a new character?

[Gromnir]

Level 1 confirmed in the new backer update. I think i like that

no tartar sauce after all.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, nothing like stealing our levels and experience and smashing all our cool stuff to generate a truly personal grudge against Eothas, right?

[floredon]

I have a feeling even after all that Eothas will do to us, Eder will still be an Eothas apologist. "You see, you just don't understand Eothas like I do. Now, let me tell you something..."

[rheingold]

Got to say it's a deal breaker for me. Really bad story telling, they have pretty much made the first game pointless. It's really unnecessary, they should have just had a new character, instead of waving a giant eothas shaped magic schtick. Really tacky. So disappointed. I'll still get the game but certainly not going to pay extra for it this time. And its nothing to do with power or lack thereoff or even an emotional bond with the watcher, it's purely narrative driven, as in, if I want to play a game without consequences or silly plotting, well there are no lack of those games.

[Aramintai]

Got to say it's a deal breaker for me. Really bad story telling, they have pretty much made the first game pointless. It's really unnecessary, they should have just had a new character, instead of waving a giant eothas shaped magic schtick. Really tacky. So disappointed. I'll still get the game but certainly not going to pay extra for it this time. And its nothing to do with power or lack thereoff or even an emotional bond with the watcher, it's purely narrative driven, as in, if I want to play a game without consequences or silly plotting, well there are no lack of those games.

Yea, I don't get how stealing part of your soul suddenly makes you forget how to swing a sword or sing a song.