What can OE learn from Tyranny to better PoE 2

[TheisEjsing]

Hey guys, I thought it was a good idea to have a discussion about our experiences and observations from Tyranny. Both what you like about Tyranny, which could improve PoE and what you don't want to see moving forward.

 

I'll start with some initial observations from what I have seen sofar.
 

I like:

That NPCs react to your companions comments and presence in conversations.

 

 

That NPCs (those I met) feel more interconnected to each other and the story. 

 

 

I don't like: 

The character "portraits" in the side of the conversation box. The same character is early on already recycled many times, and their reactions seems too much JRPG like for me.

 

The binary faction system seems restricting and acts "mechanical" instead of immersive.

 

I don't like that the portraits are just male and female versions of the same guy. I suppose it's a budget thing, but no..

 

Other:

I really like combo moves for this game, but I don't think they would fit in well in a PoE game. Again, abit too JRPG for me.

I will update my list as I progress in the game.

 

What do you guys think?

Edited November 11, 2016 by TheisEjsing

[Sedrefilos]

Interesting thread (I was thinking about starting one myself once I played Tyranny). I haven't got my hands on Tyranny yet, hopefully tonight or at Sunday, but from several previews I saw of the game, it looks it has many things to teach to Pillars. I'll return after I've played some of Tyranny

Edited November 11, 2016 by Sedrefilos

[Boeroer]

+ I really like it that the pictures of my companions change appearance (gear and stuff) when I talk to them. I really like the gestures, too.

 

+ I love the start (conquest and all).

 

- I totally loathe the art style of the 3d-characters and -items. But that's my personal taste. Looks MOBAish and also looks a bit like Torchlight to me (which i like despite that look). The environment is nice though.

 

- I don't like the pace in combat. It's too slow for my taste.

 

+ I like the talents and the talent tree so far. It's more interesting than PoE's.

 

+ I really like it that there are no classes.

 

+ The in game infos around game mechanics seem to be way better

[demeisen]

Good thread idea.  I'm not too far into Tyranny yet, but so far:

​

​Like

​+ The tone and feel of the game is great.  It feels like a nicely fleshed out world.

​+ The art is at least as good as Pillars, if not better.

​+ Some of the combo moves are OK, although some seem kinda... cartoony.  Good idea, but needs to be handled judiciously.

​+ Edit: Some initial areas feel more "alive" than PoE towns, with chars walking around doing stuff, etc.  There's a nice sense of it being a living place.

​

​Dislike

​- The cooldown timers for everything in combat.  Ugh... it's too "action RPG", only without the action.  I don't feel it's a good fit for CRPGs.

​- In general, combat feels "slow".

​- 4 chars.  6 is better.

​- Not 100% sure about this one yet, but I haven't seen any long-term health or spell resources.  It seems like you totally regen after each fight?  If so, again it's too "action RPG" style: there'd be no need to manage health and abilities over a unit any larger than a single fight.  POE isn't perfect here, but it does try.

​

​It definitely has the feel of a game that's going more for a mass market audience.  Jury's still out for me.  I'm sure I'll play through and enjoy it, but there are absolutely gonna be things where I think it's a step back from Pillars, and I hope those aspects don't creep into POE2.

​

​

Edited November 11, 2016 by demeisen

[Sedrefilos]

Pretty sure the thread will evolve (if not already done it) into a +/- of Tyranny instead of what is good in Tyranny that will benefit Pillars

[tinysalamander]

- No 64-bit (Linux) version in 2016

 

I guess my money go elsewhere. Damn

[ManifestedISO]

I'd like to see PoE2 use the classless skill and talent system. And the Conquest intro, total genius. 

[Boeroer]

Pretty sure the thread will evolve (if not already done it) into a +/- of Tyranny instead of what is good in Tyranny that will benefit Pillars

If you make your +/- points in comparison to PoE, then it's exactly the info that's asked for.

[limaxophobiacq]

+Main plot feels more interesting so far but I haven't beaten it yet.

 

The minus collumn is mostly combat for me:

 

-Watching 20+ cooldowns spread over 4 characters and then using then using each and every one when they refresh feels like a chore, as does pre-buffing. I don't think they're going to switch PoE 2 over to a cooldown system but I really dont want pre-buffing introduced into PoE 2.

 

-Inflicting status effects on enemies feels less impactful than in PoE, so combat feels like its mostly about prebuffing and spamming damage spells and abilities compared to PoE where you layer combinations effects on enemies to weaken them up for your attacks. Keep strong focus on status effects from PoE.

 

-Spell and ability visual effects are really minimal compared to PoE, and all kind of look the same. Half the time I feel like I only know what happened because i see it in the combat log and the ability goes on cooldown. This might be part of the reason they dont 'feel' impactful. PLS keep big flashy and unique spell animations and sound effects.

Edited November 12, 2016 by limaxophobiacq

[theBalthazar]

Like :

 

+ I like the Graphical update. (Visual effects for exemple)

++ The scenario is so much better. (Exept the end ?)

+ The start with conquest is interresting.

++ Create spells is an AMAZING idea.

(+/-) I am mitigate for the talent tree. The talents are better than PoE's but I don't like "tree approach".

+ The in game infos around game mechanics seem to be way better. Great job for the lore's indications and tuto.

 

Dislike :

 

- In contrary of my friend Boeroer, I can like the change of posture in dialogue, but Its too much motionless. So, its weird. (For the rest, its a good idea, its true)

- I don't like it that there are no classes. Lack of personnality. Its not Oblivion guys.

-  I don't like the idea of upgrade skills with use, like elder scrolls.

- I Don't like the infinite use of talents (power recharges). Its no brain Clic-clic-clic. Dota+MMO style = beurk. 

- Deficiency of buff approach (priest in PoE)

Edited November 12, 2016 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

Oh yeah. Forgot that. Please no skill improvement on usage. I really don't want to see that in PoE2. Urgh...

 

For a classless system it has not enough talents to make excessive character building worthwhile. PoE offers more diversity (over all classes).

[demeisen]

 

Like :

++ Create spells is an AMAZING idea.

 

Agreed: I wouldn't mind seeing that sort of spell creation scheme in a future Pillars game in some fashion.  It's an interesting addition to a magic system. 

 

Just... please... do not bring along with it all the other combat simplifications that happened in Tyranny.  The more I play the more I realize how much I dislike mindless cooldown clicking, and how much FF adds to the interest of a fight.

 

One thing Pillars did better than Tyranny - by no means ideally, but better - is that if you don't cheese the rest system, you need to manage your party's health and per-rest abilities over time, especially in areas where resting is prohibited.  Some old games like Bard's Tale (1985) had resources that could not be re-gened until you got back to an inn, so your "unit of consideration" was an entire dungeon dive.  It had its problems, no doubt, but it was vastly preferable to action-game-style auto-regen.  You had to think into the future, use your resources carefully, and it felt like an expedition rather than an exercise in waiting for cooldown timers to reset.  I'd really like POE2 to move more in the direction where larger scoped resource consideration are relatively more important, rather than in Tyranny's direction of smaller units of consideration.

[JerekKruger]

Whilst I like the idea of spell creation systems, I also really like the lore addition of having named spells in PoE (and the old Infinity Engine games). This is particularly cool when we get to meet the likes of Concelhaut and Llengrath. Ideally I'd like to see a mix: have both a spell creation system, and also a series of unique named spells. This might seem like a lot of extra work, but consider the fact that we sort of already have this with equipment: unique items exist, but we can also take a generic item and enchant it as required.

 

As for classless systems: I like them in theory, but so often in practice they result in dull, generic abilities. You decide to wield two-handed weapons, you go down the two-handed tree and you're rewarded with some unexciting more powerful ability you can perform with two-handed weapons. My worry would be that awesome abilities like Sacred Immolation would have no place in such a system, but if Obsidian can find a way to make a classless system with interesting abilities then I'm all for it. That said, I doubt PoE2 will have a classless system simply because of how it would interfere with the lore of Eora: where and how exactly, in a classless system, would Paladins, Chanters and Ciphers fit in?

[Fenixp]

I thought the spell creation system was a cool idea, until it turned out that it mostly just means I end up with a bunch of generic spells that all more or less do the same thing with different colors applied. There are some exceptions to this of course, but overall, Tyranny's spell creation system is ... Not that great.

[theBalthazar]

+1 Fenix.

 

I strongly support the idea that "generic" powers/talents/Skills/Spells are at risk.

 

From this perspective, I find the spells of PoE have more personality.

 

The idea of custom spells is absolutely awsome. BUT, warning with the "no-personnality" effect.

Edited November 12, 2016 by theBalthazar

[demeisen]

+1 Fenix.

 

I strongly support the idea that "generic" powers/talents/Skills/Spells are at risk.

 

From this perspective, I find the spells of PoE have more personality.

 

The idea of custom spells is absolutely awsome. BUT, warning with the "no-personnality" effect.

 

​Yep, agreed - I was imagining something like an augmentation, rather than a replacement.  Totally agreed that there is a risk of losing the personality and interest of PoE style spells if everything becomes a generic "bolt these N things together" scheme.

​

​

[demeisen]

+ Another thing I'm liking in Tyranny which I could see making an appearance in future PoE games is companion-specific skill trees.  I'm not far enough along yet to know if they're really unique or are very similar to skills the PC could obtain, but at least the in-game description makes them sound custom to the companion characters.   It's a nice idea: makes the companions feel unique, rather than like carbon copies of what you yourself could be with the right skill selection.

​

​+ I think I might also like the time limited main quests, although I can certainly understand why some people might not.  I'm also not far enough along to know how it balances out, but it gives some sense of urgency that I rarely felt in PoE where you could rest as many times as you wanted.  Maybe in Story mode they could relax or remove the time restrictions so people who want an easier time of it don't have to be concerned with it, but I like the general idea of pressuring the player a little bit.

​

​

[Grimo88]

- One thing I don't really like is a classless system. It simply galvanizes my love of classes. Seriously, my options so far have been to make a jack of all trades with stats spread so thin that they're useless, or something so focused on 1 skill that they're just a generic sword-guy with no flavour.  

 

+ I really like companion-specific trees. I think they're really important to making the companions distinct. Very important. 

 

- Combat is so slow and awkward. Cooldowns suck. No feeling of resource management without stamina/health mechanic or limited spells. No flanking is also balls. In fact, the whole system, with its slow, janky combat, ability combos, 4-member party and cooldowns feels far too much like DA:O. 

 

I'm really struggling to enjoy it actually. It just makes me want to play PoE again... 

[Gorionsson]

Very little.

 

Combat is just awful.

 

Companion reactivness is ok i suppose.

[ruzen]

-They could create politicly more complicated factions & stories.

-World Crafting is a must.

-Party management needs to be improved. Relationship and maintaining equipment.

 

-I didn't like the spell creation. Created spells didn't feel unique enough to be called: spell creation.

[Karkarov]

Lol at all the combat complaints.  It is no worse than Eternity.

Things to consider keeping, not going to waste my time on what isn't worth bringing over

- Main character actually being a part of the plot and not a faceless cipher (get it, c wut I did thar?)

- Classless system works great, build your character how you want without worry of gating certain options.

- Companions having unique skills and abilities the player can't get.

- Spell creation HOWEVER, this would only be if the skills system is similar to Tyranny.  In Tyranny it works and is valuable because in case you didn't notice, there are not that many "talent" based abilities, especially early in the game.  Landry with all points in one spec for example will only have 3-4 spells.  Think about that.  Imagine playing a mage in Eternity who only has 4 spells?

- Companions having far more to do with the plot, being more integral to the story.

- Branching story where choices matter and the plot can drastically change based on decisions made from the very beginning all the way to late game.

- More varied and complex reputations, and a functional reputation system for them.

- Actual tangible rewards and effects attached to the reputation system.

- The combo system is really neat, maybe just gate it behind companion rep instead of letting weaker abilities be there from the beginning?

- More "skills" like subterfuge, they serve a bigger point in game, tied to stats not some arbitrary skill point choice, can be trained, and get better with use.

 

Of course this is all moot since Eternity 2 is probably well into development already and many of these things couldn't be changed now even if they wanted to.
 

Edited November 13, 2016 by Karkarov

[kanisatha]

​+ I think I might also like the time limited main quests, although I can certainly understand why some people might not.  I'm also not far enough along to know how it balances out, but it gives some sense of urgency that I rarely felt in PoE where you could rest as many times as you wanted.  Maybe in Story mode they could relax or remove the time restrictions so people who want an easier time of it don't have to be concerned with it, but I like the general idea of pressuring the player a little bit.

Please, no! I hate timed anything in my games, which is yet another one of the many reasons I don't care for the Elder Scroll games. I play crpg's to escape the stress of my real-life, so don't need that kind of stress in my games. I like to take my time and explore every last little thing I can in every location and every quest. I easily spent close on 300 hours playing a single run-through of Dragon Age Inquisition.

[demeisen]

Please, no! I hate timed anything in my games, which is yet another one of the many reasons I don't care for the Elder Scroll games. I play crpg's to escape the stress of my real-life, so don't need that kind of stress in my games. I like to take my time and explore every last little thing I can in every location and every quest. I easily spent close on 300 hours playing a single run-through of Dragon Age Inquisition.

 

 

​Nod - maybe it should be an option, the same way you can turn on or off the spell range indicators.  Certainly not everyone enjoys that kind of mechanic.

​

[Bill Gates' Son]

Lol at all the combat complaints.  It is no worse than Eternity.

 

I see you're back to being your old dickish self  Tyranny combat does a lot of things differently, so subjectively I can see why some people think it's worse.  I'm not partially a fan of no flanking or the fact that archers get no penalty when being engaged by melee.

 

On topic, I really hope they take a look at Tyranny's companion interaction.  Party members talk to each other more often, and NPCs actually communicate with them instead of just ignoring their comments. However, I don't want them to reduce the amount of companions you get.  If Pillars 2 is going to be the BG2 of this series, then you need a lot of companions.  I'm sure they can think of something so they dont' have to sacrificing quantity for quality.  

Edited November 13, 2016 by Bill Gates' Son

[Starwars]

So far I think most of the stuff in Tyranny is sort of better kept in that franchise since they really seem to try for different things. I sure as hell would be disappointed if they brought stuff from the combat situation into PoE at least. Tyranny has some of the most boring combat I've encountered in a long time unfortunately.

 

That said.

 

-Getting some sort of mechanical benefit from the reputations of factions is a great idea. Might be a bit "game-y" but it's a good solution to give the system a bit more weight. Obviously hard to design enough reactivity to make it really feel meaningful in terms of dialogue and other stuff. 

 

-A lot of dialogue with the companions is always a good thing.

 

That's about it as far as I'm concerned. Again, they seem to try for diffferent design ideals... PoE is much "wider" and bigger with Tyranny going more for depth within the story and choices.

 

Just, please... no Tyranny combat in PoE.