Level Cap

[deama]

Well, if the OP is still interested, I made a level cap extender (about level 50), though it only works for if there is 1 character in the party. It also gives you an exp bonus of 5x, but you can change this.

http://forum.cheatengine.org/viewtopic.php?p=5586310#5586310

You won't get extra spell points, but you'll get extra feat points.

Edited April 21, 2015 by deama

[b0rsuk]

Developer meeting:

"Hey you know what would be a great idea, a level cap of 12"

"Yeah! That way we can punish people who like to explore and clear every nook and cranny. Guys implement that right now!"

 

 

I just only entered Elms and hit the "magic" 12. Anyone got a lvl cap remover?

 

Do you mean Twin Elms is too hard for you with a level12 party ?

 

I hope you don't come back complaining when expansion comes out and you're overleveled by 10 levels.

Edited April 21, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Exoduss]

I am actually trying to get lvl cap before act 3 starts at current playtrough , i definetly would enjoy playing my max level party for as long as i can instead of still putting points into builds at the last battle of the game... 

[nilso]

I'm about to finish everything in Twin Elms now, I hit level 12 long ago. I can't remember a battle being hard since lvl 4-5  with the exception of the Adra dragon that took quite a bit of tactics(yay!).

 

Now I don't have the energy to spend the last few hours to finish the game because it has become sooo boring.

 

I don't understand the argument that you would be overpowered if they had no level cap, for the end or in future expansions. How is that my problem? Balance the damn game, now the last 1/3 of the game is just a grind through a mediocre story. You play RPG's to develop your dudes and explore, if you don't get XP and the game is to easy to care about any items the whole motivation to explore disappears. 

 

The game was f-ing amazing the first 1/3, the 2/3 was fun cause you still leveled but there was absolutely no challenge. The 3/3 is just completely pointless. Sorry dudes, but you stumbled on the finish line.

[Crucis]

I'm about to finish everything in Twin Elms now, I hit level 12 long ago. I can't remember a battle being hard since lvl 4-5  with the exception of the Adra dragon that took quite a bit of tactics(yay!).

 

Now I don't have the energy to spend the last few hours to finish the game because it has become sooo boring.

 

I don't understand the argument that you would be overpowered if they had no level cap, for the end or in future expansions. How is that my problem? Balance the damn game, now the last 1/3 of the game is just a grind through a mediocre story. You play RPG's to develop your dudes and explore, if you don't get XP and the game is to easy to care about any items the whole motivation to explore disappears. 

 

The game was f-ing amazing the first 1/3, the 2/3 was fun cause you still leveled but there was absolutely no challenge. The 3/3 is just completely pointless. Sorry dudes, but you stumbled on the finish line.

 

Not everybody plays in such a way to find every last side quest to farm every last XP to be found.  If the game was balanced for the "do 100% of the side quests" crowd, the people who didn't would have a much more difficult time as they approached the end of the game.

[Bryy]

I hate level caps. Hopefully this can be changed in a future version. What you learn in life experiences is "capped" so why should it be in a game.

Because it is a game. 

 

It was designed that way.

[abaris]

 

"Dissapointed because the developers made place for level 7-10 spells in spell book but there are no such spells in game. I feel a bit cheated and that really broke the spell I was under for this game. It is still very good game."

 

They probably made room for them with having extensions in mind. They system has to be already in place for higher levels, if you plan to go there.

 

That said, I think, given the amount of side quests and exploration available, a level cap of something between 14 and 15 would have been more balanced.

 

Edit: somehow it didn't take the quote correctly this time.

Edited May 9, 2015 by abaris

[guest-tresca]

Considering that Baldur's Gate, the corner stone of this game genre (i'm not counting pen and paper games), was published in 1998 and that PoE (clearly a descendant of that) still has a cap level mechanic after 17 years, maybe there is a good reason for it. Also, let us not forget that obsidian was created by some of the guys who worked for black isle, the studio that basically created BG (if i am not mistaken).

 

PoE, like BG etc., is basically a pen and paper RPG adventure/campaign. You start from xp level X (1 in PoE) and end up at most at xp level X+n (12 in PoE), since the publisher has already planned to span the story on more than one adventure module (meaning PoE). Usually pen and paper modules have a minimum ending xp level which is not much lower than the maxium (ie. 1-2 xp levels for short modules). The main difference between a classic adventure module and games like BG is that you don't need a game master nor friends to play with, meaning that your adventure module will be potentially bought by a far greater audience. This means greater incomes (by several order of magnitude I believe), but also the need to target all kind of people, both the old school guys and the rest of the rpg world guys (not to mention "casual" players). Since not all people like to througly search each square inch of a dungeon, you have to make a compromise on the maximum level of experience a player can get, aka xp cap level, otherwise you will break the adventure module.

I'll say it again, this is not a diablo-like game, where monsters are constantly respawned and their power level scaled to match that of the player, this is an old school rpg adventure module. In this part of the adventure the PC and NPC are supposed to rise from level 1 to level 12.

 

That said, maybe it's possible to introduce a game mode that allows PC and NPC to level up to the maximum xp level, but in this case the game creators will need to make impossible to import such characters in any future expansion/sequel of PoE.

[nilso]

I have to bring this topic up again cause I don't understand any of the arguments.

 

1. People are referring to the table top pen and paper D&D very often. Obsidian made it clear they wouldn't follow those rules but make their own rule book very early on in the development. So it's not an argument in. And IF they did follow the D&D rule book that's a very poor excuse to make poor PC game decisions.

 

2. Characters would be overpowered. Well so? Scale the mobs! Several games have done it before and it's a doable solution. Dragon Age Origins had a brilliant solution for this. As a side note it's not like they solved this problem anyway. I can think of 2 challenging fights post Act 1, the rest was steamrolling.

 

3. Not everyone does all the side quests and would be the right level for end game in that case. See point 2.

 

4. There isn't spells and abilities beyond level 12. Well, sure but that's first of all a design mistake that they could adjust and second I feel like it doesn't matter. Let us pick MORE level 12 spells after level 12 then. It's a solvable problem.

 

In addition to the above there is SO MUCH great content in PoE and Obsidian created it all themselves. It cannot be that hard to calculate roughly which level is possible to reach if you do everything and then make that or at least close to it the cap if you must have a cap. Now you are max level before act 2 is over and most of the good weapons are found by then as well.

 

Again, this is the most hyped I've been for a game in YEARS and it's such a disappointment because act 1 was really really good, exactly what I wished for.

[Killyox]

Why did you necro this thread?

[the_dog_days]

Wow. First the "hooking fades to black" thread, then the "yay, dwarves!", and now "level cap too small". Do crucifixes and holy water work put revived threads down for good?

Edited October 2, 2015 by the_dog_days

[sapientNode]

Level cap today in a game is bad.

I recall level caps in BG and IWD and you met them not very far from the end game which you see here.

 

With non linearity and the increase over time of content level caps (and the removal of a feeling of character progression) is not making a lot of sense.

As it is the base game with or without a cap is way ez mode compared to the days of BG and IWD.

If it was simply a matter of balance then they should have rewarded the players doing all content not dropped the hammer as you enter the last town (if you clear everything)

 

I use iemod 25/50% increase for exp gain for this reason.  However level cap remover would be extraordinarily welcome or a system that once we reach cap it is a soft cap where we still are able to gain talents or skills and a decreased amount of hp/endurance and spell access.

 

If they are going to attempt a tight weave design where expansions and such are factored into the cap then they seriously need to sit down and plot out the different methods of play.  And it shouldn't be in favor of those who blow through content so they can hit cap and ignore side quests.  That is counter intuitive in even making the content.  In the current game before I started using iemod I was literally micro managing my quest completions to make sure I stayed within a range so I did not exceed level cap too early.  WHich meant forgoing many completions and also took a lot of math calculations to try to foresee where I would be by act 3.  It also took me completing the game or very near completing the game so I could chart my progress so I wouldn't overlevel.  Ultimately I attached a balancing system to my own game through my own discipline.  If I wanted to see what occurred from the completion of a quest I turned it in and then reverted to a previous save.

 

This type of playing is just annoying and not fun. Thankfully with iemod and a 50% initial and 25% at about level 6 or 7 I feel I will gain cap in White March near the end game so I wont be left feeling like I am not progressing anymore.

 

I absolutely love the story and the characters and the overall world. And White March exceeded that a lot for me.

However balancing and itemization is seriously needing work and there is no reason these systems could not adapt some already balanced styles in other games.

I know there is an attempt here to adhere to the good ole days but there is no reason why the good ole days with the awesome story characters and incredible feeling of a unique world can merge with the evolved progression of the new genre of games which are in this category.

 

Level caps for me are just all around bad.  In order for them to work well you have to plot out every possible pathway of players and strike a balance so people continue to feel progress throughout the game.  Although many will says they just are into the combat or story a large aspect of these games is a continued sense of progression and a gain of power through time and effort spent.  With finite enemies and quests there is already a system in place to block progression past a certain point.  to add another layer to it is unnecessarily restrictive.

[Anaeme]

I hope they are listening

[Ineth]

TBH I've changed my mind on the PoE level cap, and consider it a good thing now, all things considered.

 

The problem is that in PoE, character stats like Accuracy scale linearly (and rather fast) with level: http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Accuracy#Base

Simply leveling up has a bigger effect on your character's power than most character build and equipment choices you can make.

A level cap at least puts a lid on that.

[zandalord]

Bump.

 

 

So any news about removal max level restrictions?

 

I don't like playing for nothing, and same as many others I always do everything for exp. Where is sens to play when you stop growing after 3/5 of game?

 

So when I reached lvl 12 I showed to this game middle finger and jumped to kill final boss. 

 

I not finished Act 3 sub quest, all level of The Endless Paths of Od Nua and all hunter quests.

 

Why? Simple: no exp - no play.

 

And don't tell my about Baldur`s Gate 1 or 2 lvl cap because I used level unlocker and for PoE nobody did full unlocker.

 

Look at Risen or Gothis - I can play and collect as many exp as I want, only game world limits me (mobs, quest). 

 

So why I can't finish PoE with 15 or 20 lvl? Because it will not be balanced? F. the balans. I playing rpg for one purpose: at the end I want to have almost immortal heros because they deserves it when I spend 2-3 much more time then others players.

[Sethanon]

Yep, I agree with you. I sumarized my findings here, in this topic:

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82288-about-max-level-exp-cap/?do=findComment&comment=1734366

[zandalord]

Yep, I agree with you. I sumarized my findings here, in this topic:

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82288-about-max-level-exp-cap/?do=findComment&comment=1734366

But people want exp nerf - I don't. 

 

Even with the maximum level I had huge problems with defeating the final boss on easy difficulty and latest bounty quest. Why? Because I don't like too tactical combat and we have 2016 (2015) not 1999 and I don't have time to look for tactics to every opponent and repeat the fight over and over (and even on BG 1 and 2 when you have a very high level you still fight with easy opponents).

 

Without lvl cap I'm stronger so the fights are easier - this is my reward for doing everything in the game. With lvl cap - my progress is stopped, I can't be better. Sorry, but for me this is very stupid.

 

Why dev do unrealistic bosses? ID 1 or 2 final battle with twins - terrible. 100% resistance to spells lvl 1,2,3 and don't remember even 4 and 5? Magic word - die = resistance, magic word - sleep = resistance, stab weapon = resistance, arrows = resistance.

[Mocker22]

 

Yep, I agree with you. I sumarized my findings here, in this topic:

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82288-about-max-level-exp-cap/?do=findComment&comment=1734366

But people want exp nerf - I don't. 

 

Even with the maximum level I had huge problems with defeating the final boss on easy difficulty and latest bounty quest. Why? Because I don't like too tactical combat and we have 2016 (2015) not 1999 and I don't have time to look for tactics to every opponent and repeat the fight over and over (and even on BG 1 and 2 when you have a very high level you still fight with easy opponents).

 

Without lvl cap I'm stronger so the fights are easier - this is my reward for doing everything in the game. With lvl cap - my progress is stopped, I can't be better. Sorry, but for me this is very stupid.

 

Why dev do unrealistic bosses? ID 1 or 2 final battle with twins - terrible. 100% resistance to spells lvl 1,2,3 and don't remember even 4 and 5? Magic word - die = resistance, magic word - sleep = resistance, stab weapon = resistance, arrows = resistance.

 

With no level cap it becomes nearly impossible to balance this kind of game. This is not meant to be an open world exploration like Skyrim where you can go anywhere at any time. Also, without a level cap how do you plan on gaining new abilities as you progress past the current level cap? I don't see the devs having time to design an infinite number of abilities for you to keep gaining. Also the ability to keep gaining more and more talents would further ruin any balancing attempt. You are supposed to have to make choices not get everything.

 

There is also more to a character than experience. Finding new, powerful items is certainly worth doing some sidequests.

 

As for the bosses being hard on Easy, I'm not sure what to tell you. Many people find this game to be fairly easy on Path of the Damned......also most people want to be challenged to some extent. I don't see how a game is enjoyable if your steam rolling everything without any effort at all.

 

On easy there should be almost no tactics involved. If you can't be bothered to learn the absolute most basic of game mechanics, that's a you problem. PoE was designed as a throw back to infinity engine tactical combat. If that is not your cup of tea, why are you bothering with this game, its probably just not for you.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Mocker22

[HawkSoft]

I see a level or experience cap to be two different ways of achieving the same goal, that is limiting character power and I think this is a perfectly valid thing to do in a story-driven cRPG.

 

If the OBS team could implement an experience point throttle without diverting effort from future content or bug fixing I'd be OK with that.

[Kelryth]

Why not make it level scaled like Bethesda games?  Extra work sure. It'd be awesome though. Have it as DLC  I'll buy it...lol

[K Galen B]

Urgh. Built-in level scaling is usually a big negative for my immersion in RPGs. Sometimes it can be done well... but for the most part it isn't.

[Boeroer]

I hate it.

[AeonsLegend]

Baldur's Gate had a level cap of 7 and it took ages to gain a level. No one complained about it then.

[AeonsLegend]

Why not make it level scaled like Bethesda games?  Extra work sure. It'd be awesome though. Have it as DLC  I'll buy it...lol

 

Oh my God that's one of the worst things in Bethesda games.

[AndreaColombo]

Bracketed scaling would be a good solution, imo. Or scaling only for critical path material, so that it stays challenging while side quests can be super-hard or ROTFLSTOMP depending on your level.

My preferred solution would be optional bracketed scaling for everything, provided that the final boss (and perhaps other climatic boss fights like the dragons) would scale all the way up to maximum level.