The blandness of this RPG system

[Elerond]

My one real complaint thus far is that the items feel kinda bland to me, like there's no armour/weapons I couldn't get by enchanting instead.  But that's quite possibly something that will improve as I go along.

 

You will find lots of items that have special enchantments that you can do yourself.

[Maviarab]

Guys guys, guys....don't feed the trolls....

 

Anyone who makes his point by linking Kotaku.....

[TheUsernamelessOne]

Guys guys, guys....don't feed the trolls....

 

Anyone who makes his point by linking Kotaku.....

 

Yeah, but it's an article written by Chris Avellone. I'm pretty sure Kotaku is just hosting it.

[Katarack21]

 

I've actually seen a lot of items at this point that I can't make, and I find *THAT* annoying, Daggers with spells, shields with bash, etc.

Oh, true, I do have one shield with a bashing attack.  It's nice!  You don't like unique items?

 

It would also be nice if there was some sort of system to transfer enchantments to similar items, but I suspect it'd be quite a lot of work to implement.

 

I wouldn't say I don't like it, I just find it frustrating some times--especially when I see a really cool spell effect that I can't duplicate on a weapon type that I'm not going to be using.

[Rompa]

 

Guys guys, guys....don't feed the trolls....

 

Anyone who makes his point by linking Kotaku.....

 

Yeah, but it's an article written by Chris Avellone. I'm pretty sure Kotaku is just hosting it.

 

It says Josh Sawyer as the author. Not Avellone

[sparklecat]

 

 

I've actually seen a lot of items at this point that I can't make, and I find *THAT* annoying, Daggers with spells, shields with bash, etc.

Oh, true, I do have one shield with a bashing attack.  It's nice!  You don't like unique items?

 

It would also be nice if there was some sort of system to transfer enchantments to similar items, but I suspect it'd be quite a lot of work to implement.

 

I wouldn't say I don't like it, I just find it frustrating some times--especially when I see a really cool spell effect that I can't duplicate on a weapon type that I'm not going to be using.

 

Seems like the sort of thing that will be less annoying the more times you play, at least, and know what to expect when you're planning out a character.

[Ted Striker]

Everyone is used to WoW and vanity crap items and the next cool piece of gear. PoE has better taste, but the Kardashian Watching - Mouth Breathers have trouble understanding this sort of concept. 

[Lightzy]

Guys guys, guys....don't feed the trolls....

 

Anyone who makes his point by linking Kotaku.....

 

It's written by Josh, designer of PoE. 

 

In any case, the items in this game are bland by choice, which is what the article shows. and it's done this way in order to make "everything valid", exactly how you make everything bland and boring, instead of valid.

better luck next time with your reading skills though, sir

[Medwynd]

The whole fun of an RPG is those supposed 'game changers' that you find.

 

I guess this is where we fundamentally disagree.  The whole fun of an RPG for me is the engaging story.

[yjzep]

This is a feature for me.  Nothing more annoying than getting a new shiny that is useless. Or, games that constantly drop rare named loot that has very minor differences.  This game is about story.  You can enchant a couple of the same "models" for different uses and put them in slots.  I for one am sick of loot fests.  Fine for Diablo which is deep as a puddle without, but not worrying about 200 different named swords that all suck compared to the one you use is a nice change.  More time to read the content.  There are special items btw.  Just not at every drop.

[hypocritelecteur]

If it's bland, it's because the most viable strategy is to position your party where your tanks are up front, drop all your encounter powers right off the bat to cripple the opposition, then mop them up with guns or damage spells. Rinse. Rest if you need it. Repeat. You never really have to deviate from that strategy. If you do you're usually punished for it, in my experience and according to what I've read. Maybe toss in a daily or two from the wizard (grease and burning hands) and priest (whatever, might as well toss out buffs sometimes but it's pretty inconsequential compared to the barrage of save-or-suck spells the other classes can drop), if the situation calls for it. My Cipher has used Mind Crush so often that I refuse to even type the actual name of the spell anymore.

You want the freedom to put your squishy people up front and leave your tanks at long range?

[kozzy]

Try playing the game more, the combat is fantastic once you learn the ins and outs. 28 hours in and loving the game, only issue for me is the pathfinding sucks at times. Like the combat more than the last two crpgs I enjoyed, Wasteland 2 and Divinity.

Edited March 29, 2015 by kozzy

[AncientToaster]

Try playing the game more, the combat is fantastic once you learn the ins and outs. 28 hours in and loving the game, only issue for me is the pathfinding sucks at times. Like the combat more than the last two crpgs I enjoyed, Wasteland 2 and Divinity.

 

Divinity's combat was incredibly fun, and I don't feel the same way about this combat. 

 

However this game delivers on actual Role Playing, conversations and story. Atmosphere is top notch as well, I really disliked much of D:OS because it was so tongue-in-cheek cliche. 

[Prime-Mover]

I've noticed there was something I disliked straight away, seeing as I had no reason at all to change any of my starting equipment even after 5 hours of playing, seeing as there simply wasn't anything better, but only "different", but after playing more, and reading this:

 

http://kotaku.com/how-to-balance-an-rpg-1625516832 (which is very nicely written by the way and very astute),

 

I'm pretty sure I had it right.

 

 

Such efforts have gone into making everything "work out", making everything "viable", that the game is incredibly bland for an RPG. If you had considered human psychology instead of math charts, you would have not designed it this way.

 

 

Such efforts have gone into allowing players to "maintain their clothing style in the game" that everything is mechanically bland and samey, because of the missguided effort to keep it all mechanically viable as well.

 

The whole fun of an RPG is those supposed 'game changers' that you find. That special stuff that far outclasses what you have and which is so significant that it changes the way you approach combat from the moment you find it onwards (for example, having had a fighter with a greatsword, and suddenly finding a longsword that is so good that you switch to using sword and shield, changing the way you play. these things are the stuff of great RPG mechanics), or the knowledge that there's something which outclasses your current equipment and which you just cannot afford yet.

 

 

The way this game is set up, and correct me if I'm wrong, as I admit I haven't played it completely through, this doesn't really happen. It's seems to be all blandy bland same, but scaling ever upwards to become the same bland but with bigger numbers VS bigger number enemies.

 

 

Really, who told you I WANT padded armor to remain a "viable option" later into the game? Why is this more fun or interesting AT ALL? Most RPGs took the much more fun way, which is NOT TO MAKE EVERYTHING VIABLE, but rather have you progress and change instead of keep the same crap you like aesthetically forever and just upgrade it with +1, +2, +3 and so on.

Not that it's relevant so much, but in reality, as in those RPGs, the choice of crappy padded armor was in almost all cases BECAUSE YOU WERE VERY POOR or unimportant enough that nobody cares about equipping you well.

And of course you would have much preferred to get that more pricey leather armor, or chainmail if you could. AND THIS IS WHAT MAKES RPGS FUN TOO. The anticipation for improvement. Knowing there's something much better to get, and saving up for when you can finally get it.

Finding stuff which is SO MUCH BETTER than what you have.

It's basic really.

 

 

Even the numbers game doesn't really make any difference.

Great, so I have spear which is slightly more accurate and mace which defeats some damage reduction. End result? pretty much the same. Either I hit slightly more for slightly less damage or hit slightly less for slightly more damage. In either case it's not really enough for me to exchange weapons even if it puts me at 0.1% of disadvantage, because that's pretty much how it's set up, in order to not "interrupt the player's choice of stylized outfitting".

 

 

So far, I find this to be poorly considered

There is a difference between "This doesn't suit me" and "This is just bad". A good move would be to familiarise yourself with that distinction before posting, and apply it with an appropriate degree of humility, that's if you want people engage with you in an open and reasonable manner. Also, writing in CAPITALS is not a good move if you want to come off as a levelheaded rational poster. Try italics for emphasis instead.

 

You came accross as being so annoying and arrogant, that I never really let myself consider whether you had any good points or not. Which is a shame.

[Mansen]

 

Doesn't excuse the website that Josh wrote the article in the slightest - They are a terrible business.

[ManifestedISO]

 

PrimeJunta, on 29 Mar 2015 - 03:23 AM, said:

Ah, the JES hate brigade shows up. Move along, nothing to see here.

 

 

 

 

Oh, thanks, thought it was legit. Nevermind. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by ManifestedISO

[Phyriel]

I just read first post and it got me wondering... how other rpgs were different in terms of limiting your assortment of equipment, in baldurs gate 2 if you were a sorc you couldn't use a swords, why? because you are a sorc obviously and sorcs don't use swords, like I dunno sorcs had different arms that ain't fit to hold a sword or what? its a game limiting mechanic preventing you from just making all mage party, why pick warriors if mages can buff themselves to insane levels and get the same levels of DR as warriors or other plate classes, they could also buff their thaco to the same levels disregarding profficiency in weapon using due to methamorphosis spells, in addition they could time stop, accelerate, rain fireballs, disintegrate, summon stuff... "this is a maaaage world but it would be nothing... nothing...". Cmon dude, stop being such a hater, you compare it to games that were limiting your possible plays the same way yet you choose to ignore it and call them far superior in that regard. Thats not fair to say the least. Anyway I'm sure that there are many talented modders that will make items and/or classes that will make you able to solo a game or something, surely it will be fun. 

[Stun]

Everyone is used to WoW and vanity crap items and the next cool piece of gear.

And, more relevantly, they've forgotten BG1 - an 80 hour game where you can count on 1 hand the number of magical weapons that offer anything other than a simple to-hit and damage bonus.

 

Nothing other than Modern RPG conditioning/brain washing can explain why BG1 never got bashed for its "boring" loot itemization, while we sit here and watch PoE getting raked over the coals for it.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Stun

[Xavori]

 

Everyone is used to WoW and vanity crap items and the next cool piece of gear.

And, more relevantly, they've forgotten BG1 - an 80 hour game where you can count on 1 hand the number of magical weapons that offer anything other than a simple to-hit and damage bonus.

 

Nothing other than Modern RPG conditioning/brain washing can explain why BG1 never got bashed for its "boring" loot itemization, while we sit here and watch PoE getting raked over the coals for it.

 

 

Um.  I don't think you played the same BG1 the rest of us played.  Either that (and more likely), it's a bit easy to forget what a game released last century (seriously) was really like.

 

But as I said before, while I don't necessarily agree with the OP, I do think Josh failed in his goal to make variety a viable option.  Regardless of what he may have intended with the design, padded armor still sucks.  Daggers vs stiletto is a no brainer in favor of stiletto.  And whatever cloak throws the most defensive buffs on you is the right choice regardless of class.

[Katarack21]

 

 

Everyone is used to WoW and vanity crap items and the next cool piece of gear.

And, more relevantly, they've forgotten BG1 - an 80 hour game where you can count on 1 hand the number of magical weapons that offer anything other than a simple to-hit and damage bonus.

 

Nothing other than Modern RPG conditioning/brain washing can explain why BG1 never got bashed for its "boring" loot itemization, while we sit here and watch PoE getting raked over the coals for it.

 

 

Um.  I don't think you played the same BG1 the rest of us played.  Either that (and more likely), it's a bit easy to forget what a game released last century (seriously) was really like.

 

But as I said before, while I don't necessarily agree with the OP, I do think Josh failed in his goal to make variety a viable option.  Regardless of what he may have intended with the design, padded armor still sucks.  Daggers vs stiletto is a no brainer in favor of stiletto.  And whatever cloak throws the most defensive buffs on you is the right choice regardless of class.

 

I disagree. Daggers do slash damage, stilettos do pierce--and while stilettos have DR bypass, daggers have accuracy. Which one you want depends on your build and what you're fighting. I have Grieving Mother in cleric robes, actually--less armor and less activity slowing than even the padded armor, and I'm loving it. Having a cipher casting powers real fast is crazy DPS and is super useful as long as you keep them back out of the fray.

[Mashiki]

Peh.  Trusting Kotaku on something is like trusting World Weekly News for factual information.

[Hellraiser789]

 

 

Everyone is used to WoW and vanity crap items and the next cool piece of gear.

And, more relevantly, they've forgotten BG1 - an 80 hour game where you can count on 1 hand the number of magical weapons that offer anything other than a simple to-hit and damage bonus.

 

Nothing other than Modern RPG conditioning/brain washing can explain why BG1 never got bashed for its "boring" loot itemization, while we sit here and watch PoE getting raked over the coals for it.

 

 

Um.  I don't think you played the same BG1 the rest of us played.  Either that (and more likely), it's a bit easy to forget what a game released last century (seriously) was really like.

 

But as I said before, while I don't necessarily agree with the OP, I do think Josh failed in his goal to make variety a viable option.  Regardless of what he may have intended with the design, padded armor still sucks.  Daggers vs stiletto is a no brainer in favor of stiletto.  And whatever cloak throws the most defensive buffs on you is the right choice regardless of class.

 

 

I would actually agree with Stun... there were NOT a ton of magical weaponry in Baldur's Gate 1...at least when compared to more recent games, or even Baldur's Gate 2. More than one hand, certainly, but usually like only 1 or 2 per weapon type, tops (aside from arrows). I'm not including things like Battle Axe +1, +2, etc, because they really didn't offer any real special effects.

[paz12]

I'd suggest you play more, listen to reviewers less. 

 

Spear and mace are very different. They do different damage types which can be significant depending on enemies' damage reduction types. Spear has reach and can attack from behind another character for example which can be pretty useful. Bonus accuracy and DR bypass are very different too, accuracy means little vs. an opponent with high DR while the spear would be better vs. an opponent with lower DR but higher deflection. 

 

As for loot, equipment has enchantments similar to DnD. So for example you had your generic +1/2/3 bonuses or life drain or + 1d6 of a certain type of damage or some kind of spell effect on strike, etc. PoE has pretty much all that stuff. For example, instead of +X enchantments it has weapon quality which increases accuracy and damage. You can also enchant stuff and make your own magic weapons/armor as well as just find or buy them.  

After reading this, I seriously need to get back to my stronghold ASAP! I've been finding some equipment with spells recently, and I would love to create my own "Flail of Combusting Wounds", or something like that.

 

Currently my party is using "named" items exclusively. These items are significantly better than my starting equipment. I also felt very happy when I had the money and gems to improve my "unique" items (=items that have names). In BG some of the best gear came very very late in the game. I'm sure this will be similar with PoE. About padded armor being viable. I'm not so sure about that. My life got a lot easier since I equipped 4 of my guys with the heaviest armor available.

[Lephys]

Really, the only thing I can agree with is that I think the in-the-player's-face numbers could've/should've been a bit more intuitive. The biggest example I can think of is the percentage-based stat effects, like Intellect increasing your AoE size by 12% or something. You read an ability tooltip, and it's all "Radius: 1.79m (Base: 1.41m)".

 

I think it would've been best to deal with integers and whole units that make more sense for a lot of the stuff.

 

BUT, that's a pretty minor thing, really. I mean, with that AoE radius example, you can use AoE indicators, so you can always intuitively see the size of your AoE targets, etc. And it does clearly list all the final values, as compared to their base values. So... *shrug*.

 

It's just a little bit harder to grasp, at a glance, the exact impact something is going to have until you really stop and look at the numbers and think about it.

 

The system's not perfect, but I don't think that makes it "bland." There are some things I'd like it to do better, but it's far from doing them the worst a system could.

[PrimeJunta]

Srsly folks.

 

The system has rough edges, balance issues, and occasionally questionable features, but it's fun. There's genuine build variety. All of the classes play differently and all of them are useful, and you can skew them meaningfully in a variety of directions. I've been experimenting with different party compositions and I always find myself missing the one I kicked out. I've also made some dumb decisions leveling up and am feeling the consequences. Will do better in my next playthrough.

 

In character mechanics, this is way better than any edition of D&D I've played. If they revamp the magic system for a bit more depth and bring back per-character stealth, it'll be a classic.