Are they even listening to our feedback?

[Karkarov]

It's like you don't read my post at all. Over 70 thousand people backed PoE, the peak users+viewers on this forum was under 2000, you do the math. It won't matter that OE was right, all that will matter is if people will feel like they got what they think was promised to them on face value in the KS.

I will put this in a different way.

 

Even if Obsidian had come to certain backers doors, said hi, handed them a two thousand page design document, a business card with an email address on it, and said "Just email that address and say full refund if you don't like what is in this document!"...  Most of the whiners would still be on this forum whining about combat exp.

 

Whether or not people came to this site is a meaningless point.  Obsidian made the information available, it wasn't hidden, it wasn't disguised, they didn't lie.  They can not force you to come to this site, force you to read the updates, or force you to do anything else.  People can whine and moan all they want, it is still their fault for not keeping up with the updates and the forums.  Obsidian was always going to get backlash from those people over "something" no matter what, so your point is moot.

[Sarex]

You could have. Anytime. (Until August 22nd)

 

Obsidian would have just paid it out of their own pockets. 

 

Did not know that. That is/was very decent of them. Kudos to OE.

 

 

I will put this in a different way.

 

Even if Obsidian had come to certain backers doors, said hi, handed them a two thousand page design document, a business card with an email address on it, and said "Just email that address and say full refund if you don't like what is in this document!"...  Most of the whiners would still be on this forum whining about combat exp.

 

Whether or not people came to this site is a meaningless point.  Obsidian made the information available, it wasn't hidden, it wasn't disguised, they didn't lie.  They can not force you to come to this site, force you to read the updates, or force you to do anything else.  People can whine and moan all they want, it is still their fault for not keeping up with the updates and the forums.  Obsidian was always going to get backlash from those people over "something" no matter what, so your point is moot.

 

I agree that they were going to get some unsatisfied backers no matter what they did, but I disagree on the amount of said backers, simply because of how I received their pitch and I was following all their updates. I can only imagine how people who didn't follow the updates will feel.

 

The exact moment I figured out what was going on was when I register on this forum and started reading dev feedback.

 

You and I are obviously not on the same page, but I guess time will tell, the game will release soon and we shall see how it does (hopefully great).

Edited September 3, 2014 by Sarex

[Razsius]

 

 

Even if Obsidian had come to certain backers doors, said hi, handed them a two thousand page design document, a business card with an email address on it, and said "Just email that address and say full refund if you don't like what is in this document!"...  Most of the whiners would still be on this forum whining about combat exp.

 

Because most of the "whiners" want the Baldur's Gate experience again.  This argument of yours Karkarov makes absolutely no sense.  I don't want a refund I want a game that just blows me away like BG did.  It doesn't have to have the same mechanics, it doesn't have to abide by 2nd edition AD&D rules, it doesn't have to be in the same universe but it has to wow me like BG did.

 

Not to mention even the most far sighted individuals can't know everything before it's actually in play.  I thought health/stamina would be a good idea.  But it's most definitely not.  I loved the miss/graze/hit/crit mechanics but there weren't any misses at all till the posters griped enough about it.  In play I enjoy the miss/graze/hit/crit mechanics as I previously thought.  I didn't quite realize they were redoing the stats system but I like the general direction though it could use significant tweaking.  Some of the lame "delay" mechanics (rounds in the IE games) got added back in under the more "fluid" recovery time mechanic (which some beta testers are having difficulty getting used to).  Not sure about the DT mechanics yet but i didn't really enjoy how armor never really protected you in AD&D but my favorite was always the Fallout system.  Don't throw "Yea well you should've known like *I* did" in our faces.

 

If you *had* known how these things would turn out in practice you could've given us lesser mortals a heads up you know. 

 

Me? I'm just trying to get my head around some of this stuff.  A LOT of stuff has changed and whether it was necessary to the Baldur's Gate experience is only a question that can be answered with playtesting and feedback (yes even the negative kind).

[Tamerlane]

I told Josh to make it a MOBA and he said yes so

[StrangeCat]

Pretty sure they will deliver but damn who has time to sit on a forum baby sitting posts and replies when you have to squash 1000's of bugs!  Also work on making the game better.

 

Maybe after the 4 patch in say a month the game will be shaping up.

 

 When I play this I will take time with my new template and compose new music and mod the hell out of it.  I will even request mods for it.

I want something

someone else wants something

not all of us can be satisfied with something.

Most want the same thing that has already been developed.  What's the point in that?  Your looking to create a new game experience not rehash completely and totally old ideas.  

[Gromnir]

Pretty sure they will deliver but damn who has time to sit on a forum baby sitting posts and replies when you have to squash 1000's of bugs!  Also work on making the game better.

 

Maybe after the 4 patch in say a month the game will be shaping up.

 

 When I play this I will take time with my new template and compose new music and mod the hell out of it.  I will even request mods for it.

I want something

someone else wants something

not all of us can be satisfied with something.

Most want the same thing that has already been developed.  What's the point in that?  Your looking to create a new game experience not rehash completely and totally old ideas.  

others may disagree, but we feel that wasteland 2 has benefited a great deal from beta feedback. the original wasteland 2 discouraged us from purchasing. recent wasteland 2 has convinced Gromnir to purchase wasteland 2. inexile not only made money from the beta funds they generated (perhaps that is a bad thing) but they did improve the game, and much o' the improvement were due to player feedback.

 

PoE beta does not strike us as a beta such as inexile's wasteland 2 beta. the PoE beta may be helpful for hunting bugs, but obsdian is seeming very committed to a 2014 release. our beta input, we suspect, is extreme limited. yeah, we will help iron out hardware configuration bugs. we will also be able to give feedback on strictly numerical boosting talents, but clearly this ain't a beta such as wasteland 2 had. 

 

with time remaining to bughunt and add talents and actual finish the game, we suspect that beta feedback is o' limited and focused interest to the developers. is not necessarily a bad thing to ignore community late in development and simple make best game possible-- try and please the community, which never agrees on anything anyway (only slight hyperbole) is a sisyphean endeavor and a waste o' remaining time. nevertheless, the PoE beta is, while not exactly fraudulent, is perhaps a bit misleading. am not believeing that the developers is all that concerned with most board feedback o' the beta.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Mayama]

 

Because most of the "whiners" want the Baldur's Gate experience again.  This argument of yours Karkarov makes absolutely no sense.  I don't want a refund I want a game that just blows me away like BG did.  It doesn't have to have the same mechanics, it doesn't have to abide by 2nd edition AD&D rules, it doesn't have to be in the same universe but it has to wow me like BG did.

 

Those people need to understand that spending X money on a kickstarter campaing does not entitle them to demand anything. BG1 blew me away because it was new, Planescape torment blew me away and for me BG2 was just BG1 with more stuff added but it didnt fix a single problem of BG1. I said that to show that not everyone wants BG3. I dont agree with everything they did in PoE but its their game and I can understand why they did it. Some people here act like spoilet brats that think they have a right to force their point of view upon everyone.

[Lasweetlife]

Argument ad combat-XP-ium.

[DnaCowboy]

They are listening and responding at least regarding Combat XP.

[Gromnir]

They are listening and responding at least regarding Combat XP.

you may change your tune when you find out that they did indeed listen, but is still rejecting combat/kill xp.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[vril]

I think the amount of problems with the current release of the beta overshradowed any feedback that could come from it.  With the next patch and in following weeks I'd expect the large issues to be taken care of and the feedback to become a lot more valuable.

[Karkarov]

Me? I'm just trying to get my head around some of this stuff.  A LOT of stuff has changed and whether it was necessary to the Baldur's Gate experience is only a question that can be answered with playtesting and feedback (yes even the negative kind).

Couple things.  First no one knew detailed mechanics like "How exactly does DT work???" prior to the beta.  I think not including some sort of digital manual for the beta was a failure on Obsidian's part.  As you quite correctly stated.... people are having a hard time wrapping their heads around it.  Had their been a digital manual of some sort it would have helped tremendously because then people would have had a better understanding of the basic rules and what each specific mechanic actually does.  That would have cut down on some of the frustration for sure.  But overall big things like... No combat EXP?  There had already been more than one thread about this.  Some of them were quite huge, 20+ pages.  That was not new news, and anyone closely following the game should have known.  Same goes for the stat system, though we didn't know the hard details, the way abilities worked, how resting was changed, the stash, etc etc.

 

Obsidian did everything they could to get most of the "controversial" stuff out there.  There are updates about it, threads, dev responses in the threads, posts on something awful forums, a regularly updated wiki, interviews, probably some tweets too.  What else would you have suggested they do?  They are not to blame for backers getting the wrong impression and then just never coming back to do any research until near two years later.  They did everything that could be reasonably asked of them to get the "big" stuff out there, so please stop trying to word things like it is their fault for not telling you or misleading you.  They never mislead anyone, and they did tell the backers.

 

Second thing.... negative feedback is useless feedback.  Example, please understand I am not saying this is you Razsius, "This game needs combat EXP to make combat fun, quest EXP only is crap!"  This is very much so what many of the posts I see in this thread boiling down to.  This is what happens to those type of comments though, Sawyer looks at them, scratches his chin, then dismisses them out of hand.  Why?

 

1: Where is the explanation?  What is it you don't like about objective only EXP?  Why doesn't it work for you?

2: Combat Exp makes combat fun???  So you are saying combat isn't fun?  Okay well making you do the same combat then just giving you +50 exp at the end does nothing to change the actual content of the combat so that makes no sense.  Combat Exp is not the problem, we need to work on encounter design to make combat more fun.

3: Lets assume we go with your idea?  How do you suggest we balance it?  Obviously objective exp needs to go down but now we have an issue that some people will still stealth some encounters.  What do you propose we do to compensate for the exp loss people who are avoiding combat through whatever means face?

 

Until someone comes up with some really good answers to #1 and #3 don't expect Sawyer to budge.

[Yonjuro]

 

Second thing.... negative feedback is useless feedback.  Example, please understand I am not saying this is you Razsius, "This game needs combat EXP to make combat fun, quest EXP only is crap!"  This is very much so what many of the posts I see in this thread boiling down to.  This is what happens to those type of comments though, Sawyer looks at them, scratches his chin, then dismisses them out of hand.  Why?

 

1: Where is the explanation?  What is it you don't like about objective only EXP?  Why doesn't it work for you?

2: Combat Exp makes combat fun???  So you are saying combat isn't fun?  Okay well making you do the same combat then just giving you +50 exp at the end does nothing to change the actual content of the combat so that makes no sense.  Combat Exp is not the problem, we need to work on encounter design to make combat more fun.

3: Lets assume we go with your idea?  How do you suggest we balance it?  Obviously objective exp needs to go down but now we have an issue that some people will still stealth some encounters.  What do you propose we do to compensate for the exp loss people who are avoiding combat through whatever means face?

 

Until someone comes up with some really good answers to #1 and #3 don't expect Sawyer to budge.

 

 

 

 Exactly.

 

 "I'm going to hold my breath until I get kill XP" (yes, that's a paraphrase) is not an argument that will convince anyone.

 

 The few good arguments that have appeared are buried under a pile of non-arguments never to be seen again.

[Razsius]

Okay fine i'll bite Karkarov.. i'll bite.  Here's a few of the things that were posted on the kickstarter front page:

 

Obsidian Entertainment on September 12, 2012 said:

 

 

 

Project Eternity aims to recapture the magic, imagination, depth, and nostalgia of classic RPG's that we enjoyed making - and playing.

 

What a nice pitch! It's almost like they were thinking what a lot of others were thinking.  That the crpg golden age consisted of some IE games that we all love and adore and they'd like to "recapture" (as they put it) that feeling.  I'm definitely down so far...

 

 

 

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

 

Well hell sign me up!  I think the translation of this looks like: "We're going to take the best stuff from all 3 and combine it into one game."  Again this is Obsidian's pitch not mine after all.

 

What Obsidian Entertainment did not say:

 

 

 

We're going to add the slightly modified combat mechanics of IE games, the quest based system of experience gain of V:tM, the non-epic wizard battles you love, add in a health system to prevent "rest abuse", streamline most of the classes, add in an archaic crafting system not reflective of Baldur's Gate II, put our own spin on fantasy lore and add an epic TES sounding soundtrack to realize our goal of making a new IE style game!

 

Strangely, I don't think they would've quite gotten as much money from their kickstarter.  You know what with all the "new" ideas and stuff.  Now mind you i typed all that with my tongue in my cheek but for some that stuff up there might be a deal breaker.  It's simple really.  The more changes you make to the "style" of the IE games the more you risk alienation of the very people that funded you making the game in the first place and although it does keep the bones of it's predecessors they've got a lot of work ahead of them to get closer to the "perfect formula" that many remember from days long past.

 

Note: I, for one, REALLY enjoyed the BG II wizard battles as they were epic.  The only change that was needed was the curve of "dispel wizard buffs or die" needed to be softened quite a bit.  An epic wizard battle where your wizard is blasting spells to counter the opposing wizard or holding off a finger of doom with a channeled spell while your priest is stripping off buffs and your warrior is tanking the adds the wizard has summoned would be BADASS but i'm pretty sure that kind of fight wouldn't be streamlined enough for Josh .  Wizards are crap by comparison in PoE.

 

 

 

1: Where is the explanation?  What is it you don't like about objective only EXP?  Why doesn't it work for you?

2: Combat Exp makes combat fun???  So you are saying combat isn't fun?  Okay well making you do the same combat then just giving you +50 exp at the end does nothing to change the actual content of the combat so that makes no sense.  Combat Exp is not the problem, we need to work on encounter design to make combat more fun.

3: Lets assume we go with your idea?  How do you suggest we balance it?  Obviously objective exp needs to go down but now we have an issue that some people will still stealth some encounters.  What do you propose we do to compensate for the exp loss people who are avoiding combat through whatever means face?

 

Pretty sure #1 and #3 have been answered before in the countless combat xp threads but I suppose I could add my own input if you really wanted me to.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Razsius

[ManifestedISO]

My everyday work life is a Sisyphean rejection of comfort. Whose granny did I run down in a past life to deserve this. No one's, that's who, there is no god. Who cares about experience point vagaries, it's Wednesday, new comics, something more important. 

[makryu]

I must say, it's been pure bliss seeing the same a**holes who derided so effusively promancers a while back acting like crybabies over combat xp. I can't say I expected the beta to be so much fun

[Luridis]

I really don't know where this comes from. I watched all the videos and read the blog posts during the kickstarter and I've always had the impression that character progression wasn't going to be more of the same. I don't remember when no combat XP was decided, but it did not come as a surprise to me. And, to be honest, I just shrugged and thought "that'll be different." If, at this point, they put it in the game options with a toggle or slide Quest --|----- Monster XP and made it default to quest so that people would shut up, I really wouldn't bother to change it from the default; I really don't care.

 

On the other hand: I hate monks! I hate the very idea of them in Western RPGs. I don't mind them in Wuxia at all, they fit, it feels right and they're cool... But, I personally find them jarring alongside Paladins and Rangers. But, I also did not whine endlessly like a petulant child about it. And, do you know why? Because I'm not the only backer and someone else might like them; so I simply won't play one or hire one. I also prefer turn-based, that's not happening and lo and behold, it's not the end of the world to me.

 

I also never expected a direct port of Infinity Engine x.x to Unity 4 using anything directly resembling AD&D rules. My impression was: Obsidian's Story, Obsidian's Mechanics, Obsidian's World Setting. The idea that this was a minimum change from Planescape, with D&D rules and setting on IE to Pillars World on Unity 4 with almost-but-not-quite D&D rules that won't cause a plagiarism lawsuit from Hasbro has never crossed my mind. Never thought that on KS campaign day 1 and did not think that on day 32.

 

This place is starting to feel like a swim through hot garbage...

Edited September 4, 2014 by Luridis

[Volourn]

"Those people need to understand that spending X money on a kickstarter campaing does not entitle them to demand anything."

 

O RLY? WRONG. When promised x when you spend your money you better be entitled to it. And,d on't say it was a 'gift' 'cause it was not. Look at the KS page. It says if you sends a certain amount of money you would get certain something back. That's a business transaction like any other. It's NOT a charity. Charities don't offer x and return for money and when they do (charity lotteries or bake sales) they very much have to do what they promised. If not, it's very much fraud.

 

That said, Obsidian isn't committing fraud. They likely will deliver a product. Of course, this is a video game so quality will always be hit or miss.

 

 

"Second thing.... negative feedback is useless feedback.  Example, please understand I am not saying this is you Razsius, "This game needs combat EXP to make combat fun, quest EXP only is crap!"  This is very much so what many of the posts I see in this thread boiling down to.  This is what happens to those type of comments though, Sawyer looks at them, scratches his chin, then dismisses them out of hand.  Why?

 

1: Where is the explanation?  What is it you don't like about objective only EXP?  Why doesn't it work for you?

2: Combat Exp makes combat fun???  So you are saying combat isn't fun?  Okay well making you do the same combat then just giving you +50 exp at the end does nothing to change the actual content of the combat so that makes no sense.  Combat Exp is not the problem, we need to work on encounter design to make combat more fun.

3: Lets assume we go with your idea?  How do you suggest we balance it?  Obviously objective exp needs to go down but now we have an issue that some people will still stealth some encounters.  What do you propose we do to compensate for the exp loss people who are avoiding combat through whatever means face?"
 

Flat out lie. People have givenlegit reasons why  they prefer 'combat xp'.  Don't make stuff up as it just embarasses you,

[Bli1942]

 what is certain is that the person in charge of sound and music created a thread and read through all comments.

 

Do you have a link to that thread by any chance?

[Helm]

Project Eternity aims to recapture the magic, imagination, depth, and nostalgia of classic RPG's that we enjoyed making - and playing.

 

What a nice pitch! It's almost like they were thinking what a lot of others were thinking.  That the crpg golden age consisted of some IE games that we all love and adore and they'd like to "recapture" (as they put it) that feeling.  I'm definitely down so far...

 

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

 

Well hell sign me up!  I think the translation of this looks like: "We're going to take the best stuff from all 3 and combine it into one game."  Again this is Obsidian's pitch not mine after all.

 

What Obsidian Entertainment did not say:

 

We're going to add the slightly modified combat mechanics of IE games, the quest based system of experience gain of V:tM, the non-epic wizard battles you love, add in a health system to prevent "rest abuse", streamline most of the classes, add in an archaic crafting system not reflective of Baldur's Gate II, put our own spin on fantasy lore and add an epic TES sounding soundtrack to realize our goal of making a new IE style game!

 

Strangely, I don't think they would've quite gotten as much money from their kickstarter.  You know what with all the "new" ideas and stuff.  Now mind you i typed all that with my tongue in my cheek but for some that stuff up there might be a deal breaker.  It's simple really.  The more changes you make to the "style" of the IE games the more you risk alienation of the very people that funded you making the game in the first place and although it does keep the bones of it's predecessors they've got a lot of work ahead of them to get closer to the "perfect formula" that many remember from days long past.

Yeah, this can't be said enough. The game has nothing to do with our beloved IE games, which is not what they promised us.

 

Note: I, for one, REALLY enjoyed the BG II wizard battles as they were epic.  The only change that was needed was the curve of "dispel wizard buffs or die" needed to be softened quite a bit.  An epic wizard battle where your wizard is blasting spells to counter the opposing wizard or holding off a finger of doom with a channeled spell while your priest is stripping off buffs and your warrior is tanking the adds the wizard has summoned would be BADASS but i'm pretty sure that kind of fight wouldn't be streamlined enough for Josh .  Wizards are crap by comparison in PoE.

Sawyer hates the EPIC wizard battles in BG2 and also hates hard counters. PoE isn't a game for the IE fans, this is a game for people who loathed the IE games, for people like Josh Sawyer.

[PrimeJunta]

Sawyer hates the EPIC wizard battles in BG2 and also hates hard counters. PoE isn't a game for the IE fans, this is a game for people who loathed the IE games, for people like Josh Sawyer.

 

Tell me, Helm. Why do you lie?

[Helm]

 

Sawyer hates the EPIC wizard battles in BG2 and also hates hard counters. PoE isn't a game for the IE fans, this is a game for people who loathed the IE games, for people like Josh Sawyer.

 

Tell me, Helm. Why do you lie?

 

Tell me Primejunta, why are you in denial?

[PrimeJunta]

Helm, I generally enjoy your butthurt, but I take issue at bald-faced lies.

 

Tell me again: why do you lie?

[Sensuki]

Here's some proof that they're listening to feedback:

I have made the following suggestions that have all been added

Vertical Sync
Area Map smoother scrolling and double click set and close
Combat Tooltip decoupling from character and portrait
Health AND Stamina shown on tooltips
Female armor model breast sizes (all changed to exactly how I requested, although haven't tested from iso view whether they look more distinguishable)

Tooltip delay slider - although there needs to be two of these, because it also delays the tooltips for the abilities, which is kind of annoying. I'd prefer to have a 1.5 second tooltip delay on combat HUD stuff and 1 sec delay for abilities in the action bar.

Haven't had a chance to check any other stuff out yet

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[Mayama]

"Those people need to understand that spending X money on a kickstarter campaing does not entitle them to demand anything."

 

O RLY? WRONG. When promised x when you spend your money you better be entitled to it. And,d on't say it was a 'gift' 'cause it was not. Look at the KS page. It says if you sends a certain amount of money you would get certain something back. That's a business transaction like any other. It's NOT a charity. Charities don't offer x and return for money and when they do (charity lotteries or bake sales) they very much have to do what they promised. If not, it's very much fraud.

No its correct what I stated, read the small print in the kickstarter rules. This is a investment, not buying a final product. You invest into a company, into their vision.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Mayama