213374U Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I don't need to. The statement that money inherently is always bad is in itself a fallacy. Oh, but that's not the argument I made, only the one you construed from amputating half my post. Pretty much in line with your tendency to mischaracterize the positions of others into black-or-white bull**** strawmen that you can then heroically ride in on your high horse and righteously put down. Try again! (protip: this time try making a rebuttal that is not a one-liner. You need to be witty and original for those to work, you are not quite there yet) Wouldn't it just be easier and more cordial just to say " no that's not the argument I made" ? Wouldn't it just be easier and more cordial not to misrepresent me in the first place? You know it's called passive-aggressive behavior for a reason, right? - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 And, numbersu is a master of [passive aggresive so he knows! 1 DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Shattered Steel: 0MDK 2: 0Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood: 0Baldur's Gate: 2Tales of the Sword Coast: 1Baldur's Gate 2: 9Throne of Bhaal: 2Neverwinter Nights: 0.5Shadows of Undrentide: 0Hordes of the Underdark: 0Knights of the Old Republic: 6The Old Republic: 1,5 (jedi knight until the end, imperial agent until some later planet)Jade Empire: 3Mass Effect: 4Mass Effect 2: 8Mass Effect 3: 2Dragon Age Origins: 4Dragon Age 2: 4 More fun to do it this way: BG1 > BG2 > NWN > JE > DA2 > DA:O > KOTOR > ME 1 > ME2 > ME3 1 The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 And, numbersu is a master of [passive aggresive so he knows! Seems pretty good at active aggressive to me. 5 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I was thinking it would be nice if BioWare made a game where you could make bad decisions. 4 "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepenthe Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I was thinking it would be nice if BioWare made a game where you could make bad decisions. I dunno, currently playing DA2 and having a harder time making good decisions. I mean, when the dude wants me to help him gather obvious gunpowder, I can make the good decision of not doing it or the bad decision of helping him, but the end result is the same. Pretty sure you can make some fairly bad decisions in Awakening, too? 1 You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I was thinking it would be nice if BioWare made a game where you could make bad decisions. Bad as in "evil" or bad as in "harmful to you"? "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "you're a damned filthy lying robot and you deserve to die and burn in hell." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "I love cheese despite the pain and carnage." - ShadySands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serrano Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) I was thinking it would be nice if BioWare made a game where you could make bad decisions. I dunno, currently playing DA2 and having a harder time making good decisions. I mean, when the dude wants me to help him gather obvious gunpowder, I can make the good decision of not doing it or the bad decision of helping him, but the end result is the same. Pretty sure you can make some fairly bad decisions in Awakening, too? I was going to post something similar but I'm not sure how common it is for playing to get a compulsive urge to reload when something goes wrong or if we're in the minority. A game where you can make bad choices often and throughout open up a lot of interesting story possibilities are you try to recover from failure and paying more attention to try to figure characters and situations out becomes more of a game unto itself, but on the other hand there may be a risk of outright annoying and frustrating a lot of people to the point where they quit the game if the developer isn't careful. Would be interesting to see someone do it but isn't this exactly the same thing as making a truly branching narrative in that the developer has to keep making extra content for all the different branches and combinations of choices to not make the bad decisions feel hollow? Bad as in "evil" or bad as in "harmful to you"? I would love for Obsidian or Bioware to make an RPG where the story is written around you playing the bad guy, or a bad guy and all your choices are different styles of that. It would be refreshing for "evil" choices to extend beyond just pointless insults or murder. They would need to figure out a system to let the player feel more pro-active though since villains are typically the instigators of events while the heroes are the ones reacting to things. Edited March 21, 2014 by Serrano 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I was thinking it would be nice if BioWare made a game where you could make bad decisions. Bad as in "evil" or bad as in "harmful to you"? Bad as in evil young grasshopper, bad as in evil "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tale Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 What makes a decision bad? Is it the outcome? My philosophy is sort of that all choices should be roughly equal, but I like the idea of some being more challenging or ambiguous than others. But they should ultimately all be appealing, assuming we're not talking about going into boss fights wearing only a speedo unless there's some foreshadowing that the monster is weak to buttcracks. You don't have to make every outcome happy. But they should end up roughly equal, even if one path is a bit more circuitous to get there. Or if it's simply uncertain. For example, a player chooses to befriend a demon, they could just choose to kill it, but they choose to explore the idea that a demon can be redeemed or whatever. If they kill it, it's over. If they choose to redeem it, then it becomes a threat again, people are hurt and new conflict arises. But in the process of resolving this conflict, a demon of pride changes into a spirit of confidence. Or a desire demon becomes a love spirit, whatever. The idea being that some choices should present challenges, not judgements of being good or bad. The player who killed the demon can see that their choice was right because they stopped the additional threat that hurt people. The player who chose to redeem the demon can see that they were right, the demon can be redeemed, but has to decide for themself if it was worth the risk and the fact that people got hurt. 2 "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 "I would love for Obsidian or Bioware to make an RPG where the story is written around you playing the bad guy, or a bad guy and all your choices are different styles of that. It would be refreshing for "evil" choices to extend beyond just pointless insults or murder. They would need to figure out a system to let the player feel more pro-active though since villains are typically the instigators of events while the heroes are the ones reacting to things." Boring. Not refreshing, not original, not deep, not complex. The best would be to play a game where the player DECIDES if they want to be good/evil/irrelevant. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serrano Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) The best would be to play a game where the player DECIDES if they want to be good/evil/irrelevant. Ideally, yeah. I can't remember an RPG where the developers have decided the player is going to be a villain and really ran with that idea throughout the design though and I'd be curious about how that would turn out from a developer like Bioware or Obsidian. Edited March 21, 2014 by Serrano 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) I was thinking it would be nice if BioWare made a game where you could make bad decisions. I dunno, currently playing DA2 and having a harder time making good decisions. I mean, when the dude wants me to help him gather obvious gunpowder, I can make the good decision of not doing it or the bad decision of helping him, but the end result is the same. Pretty sure you can make some fairly bad decisions in Awakening, too? If both decisions lead to the same result, it's not much of a decision. If helping Anders led to the Chantry blowing up, and not helping him meant it didn't blow, it would be a rather meaningful one. I'm fine with 'helping a terrorist make an explosive device' being a bad decision for PCs who want to attempt a peaceful resolution. It's not some bizarre gotcha situation, is it? Likewise, pissing off the magistrate by murdering his son probably should have had negative consequences. Bad as in "evil" or bad as in "harmful to you"? Bad as in evil young grasshopper, bad as in evil BioWare lets you make a ton of evil decisions. Why would I ask for evil decisions in BioWare games when I can already slit the throats of bound qunari because they follow a different religion than I do? Edited March 22, 2014 by Maria Caliban "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orogun01 Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 They don't want to make evil decision as much as roleplay evil characters, because slitting throats isn't enough you need to cackle afterwards. 2 I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 BioWare lets you make a ton of evil decisions. Why would I ask for evil decisions in BioWare games when I can already slit the throats of bound qunari because they follow a different religion than I do? They don't want to make evil decision as much as roleplay evil characters, because slitting throats isn't enough you need to cackle afterwards. Yes for me I think people want to play an overall evil character, not just the option to "slit the throats of bound qunari because they follow a different religion" ( some people would argue this isn't evil but rather following the doctrine of a religion) But I suppose this makes the game design difficult, because fundamentally an evil character wouldn't possibly care if a region is destroyed by some archdemon., so how would you motivate an evil character progressing on the main quest of an RPG....why would an evil character care what happens to some benevolent kingdom or village or group of peasants being bothered by orcs? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 "because fundamentally an evil character wouldn't possibly care if a region is destroyed by some archdemon." Huh? Evil doesn't neccessarily mean uncaring or inhumane. Most 'evil' people in real life actually do have people they care about. Plus, if an archdemon plans to destroy the world that often includes you - whether youa re good or evil. It doesn't descriminate. 3 DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 "because fundamentally an evil character wouldn't possibly care if a region is destroyed by some archdemon." Huh? Evil doesn't neccessarily mean uncaring or inhumane. Most 'evil' people in real life actually do have people they care about. Plus, if an archdemon plans to destroy the world that often includes you - whether youa re good or evil. It doesn't descriminate. Sure, but then the argument could easily be for an evil character "I'll just let someone else fix this" ...there are other Grey Wardens and kingdoms that would more than likely join forces if there was a threat that really threatened the whole world? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) David Gaider gave a new interview with a magazine and a summary is on this German fansite. Here are a number of highlights, as posted by a German speaking forum member on the BioWare boards. Two new companions -The bald elf mage called Solas who is an apostate and expert for the fade -The Qunari Iron Bull. David Gaider describes with this words: He fears nothing only the past. -GameStar saw also an archer (likely Sera) -The Inquisitor can make his/her own rifts (is it the correct word for Risse) in the fade and summon demons -No fade puzzles (transformations) like Origins -Two voice actors for each gender. (I don´t know if this mean 16 for each race and gender or only 4) [M: It's 4.] -Skyhold or Homebase system. You will also be able to customize certain rooms and buy upgrades, like a garden to grow plants for alchemy. The journalist also suspects that there will be a "map room", where you can allocate troops to open new trade routes or occupy outposts. -dynamic wildlife. If you kill all the wolves in a forest they are gone for a while. In the same forest another player can met deer. -new enemy giants they like Darkspawn ogres and throw rocks. [M: Probably trolls.] -A dragon is especially vulnerable on the head [M: There's a called shot system for larger opponents.] - [M: Also, you can jump but not climb.] The pros: -large and beautiful areas -elaborate tactic camera -challenging fights -Savegame import ------------- Someone who's read the article in full says they mention that Hawke and the Warden will appear. This sounds dubious. Edited March 22, 2014 by Maria Caliban 4 "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orogun01 Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 "because fundamentally an evil character wouldn't possibly care if a region is destroyed by some archdemon." Huh? Evil doesn't neccessarily mean uncaring or inhumane. Most 'evil' people in real life actually do have people they care about. Plus, if an archdemon plans to destroy the world that often includes you - whether youa re good or evil. It doesn't descriminate. Sure, but then the argument could easily be for an evil character "I'll just let someone else fix this" ...there are other Grey Wardens and kingdoms that would more than likely join forces if there was a threat that really threatened the whole world? That sounds like a capitalist. I guess they want the spectrum of evil alignments, so far most examples given have been lawful. It seems evil players are more discerning in their taste. I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 I do not typically turn to BioWare RPGs for sophisticated moral philosophies, good or evil or otherwise. 5 "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tale Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 If both decisions lead to the same result, it's not much of a decision. If helping Anders led to the Chantry blowing up, and not helping him meant it didn't blow, it would be a rather meaningful one. I'm fine with 'helping a terrorist make an explosive device' being a bad decision for PCs who want to attempt a peaceful resolution. It's not some bizarre gotcha situation, is it? Likewise, pissing off the magistrate by murdering his son probably should have had negative consequences. And if you don't know what you're choosing, it's also not much of a decision. You don't know you're helping Anders blow up the chantry. So yeah, it's a little bit of a gotcha. He's telling you he needs this stuff to calm Vengeance down. He's lying to Hawke and that deceit is carried on to the player and that's the point of lying, deceit, and omission. To steal from a person their ability to make decisions. I like that you bring up the magistrate, though. You've used the same example from the other side in previous discussions. Such that letting him go causes him to continue killing. So we have the magistrate taking vengeance or the kid killing more people. I like that idea. "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 I like that you bring up the magistrate, though. You've used the same example from the other side in previous discussions. Such that letting him go causes him to continue killing. So we have the magistrate taking vengeance or the kid killing more people. I like that idea. The magistrate's son quest is an excellent example of how many corners were cut in DA II. I can't believe for a moment that they had the magistrate swear vengeance with the expectation that he'd never do anything or even appear again in the game. 1 "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Images for the new companion, Solas. Solas is an apostate mage and a somniari. Some larger images in the spoiler - Pictured with the PC, Verric, and Cassandra. Character model with some costumes. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 More images. (Giant) (Varric) (Cassandra & Solace) "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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