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I don't need to.

 

The statement that money inherently is always bad is in itself a fallacy.

Well, if you're a commie then you would know that money is bad.

 

Seriously though, the same logic in Das Kapital applies here: Capital allows someone who hasn't the capacity to do work to own the means, which means that the guy that doesn't know a thing about making games is the one financing them. I think we all know of cases where publisher oversight turns a game into a failure.

 

I can't recall if that was the reason for turning ME2 into a GOW clone or if that was a decision from Bio, does anyone know?

I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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I'd say one thing about ME2 - It had some interesting characters, especially those written by Chris L'Etoile (who mostly was the mind behind the science of the Mass effect universe in the first games). It also had some genuine laughs. I found that that plot and everything felt downright pointless & unengaging. Also the overall gameplay was dumbed a bit too much down to just a generic shooter.

The gameplay was improved. If you removed all RPG elements from both ME and ME2, ME2 would handily come out the victor. ME's gameplay was clunky and awkward. There wasn't anything about ME that was "smarter" than ME2's combat, unless you're just spamming "FORTIFICATION! *trollface*," in which case one could only say that ME2 was better balanced.

 

A cover mechanic does not make something Gears of War.

Is this indictment or praise? I've never played GoW (as I own zero ecksbawkses), I just know about tree-trunk necks with bulging veins.

Edited by AGX-17
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I always get Gears of War mixed up with Gods of War. I also mix up Uncharted with Infamous for some reason.

Gears of War is about a huge jaw with a hat mounted on a column of muscle with a greater diameter than that of the entire skull which tops it angsting about someone's wife or something. God of War (singular,) is about a smaller jaw with no hat QTEing and softcore nudity to appeal to 13 year olds too cowardly to search for porn on the internet.

 

I don't get Uncharted and Infamous. Kind of hard to mix those up.

Edited by AGX-17
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It's never been about railroading or not-railroading in CRPGs. It's between good railroading and bad railroading. Good railroading is when the path matches well with what you wanted to do anyway, bad railroading is of the "why the hell did I just agree to do that?" variety.

I've been sitting here trying to figure out how to best jump into this argument when I see you've summed up my feeling more succinctly than I ever could.

 

For the record I like Dragon Age: Origins. I liked it enough that I overlook my one agency related complaint about the Wardens. Seriously, he just stabs Ser Jory, what a bastard. Though I do like to poke holes at the fact that the Grey Wardens as a single organization should have splintered into national institutions a long time ago. And Mass Effect 2's even more ridiculous forcing the player into Cerberus without letting me kill the crew members in their sleep while scrawling "FOR ADMIRAL KOHAKU" in their blood along the ship's walls.

 

For me, good railroading is when the tracks you're forced down give more than they take. I bought into the premise of saving the world when I bought Dragon Age: Origins. So forcing me down the tracks of being a Warden just enables going towards that. It helps me to save the world and fix everyone's stupid problems. Similarly I bought into saving the galaxy in Mass Effect 2. And when I was forced to join Cerberus, I was not forced to actually help Cerberus. You get to save the galaxy and you don't even have to murder any Alliance soldiers or admirals. You can tell your boss to just bugger off, if you'd like.

 

Dragon Age 2, however, failed to give anything when it forced you down tracks. And its plot is convoluted enough that you can't really see what you're heading towards from where you start, so there's no premise to buy into. Ultimately almost everything you aspire to achieve in the game you will fail at, and I can't help but be bitter towards the tracks because I see them leading only to that failure. It's a railroad whose tracks only lead into the side of a mountain. Disaster.

 

And that's also how I view Mass Effect 3. I never liked the Crucible to begin with. But that's a rant for another time.

The best way I can describe the major failing of DA2 is that despite railroading, in DA:O I felt like I was playing my character. In DA2 I felt like I was playing Bioware's character. This wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for the precedent set in DA:O.

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The area between the balls and the butt is a hotbed of terrorist activity.

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I don't get Uncharted and Infamous. Kind of hard to mix those up.

It's based solely on the name, since I know nothing about the content of either game. I mean the commonality itself isn't that great, but for me it's just a combination of a negating prefix plus some random word.

 

I also used to get Company of Heroes mixed up with Medal of Honor, up until the point I played the former.

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"I can't recall if that was the reason for turning ME2 into a GOW clone or if that was a decision from Bio, does anyone know?"

 

These two games have little in common. Calling one a clone of the other is beyond stupid.

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DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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Strictly BioWare amount of times I've played each of their games:

 

 

I have not played Shattered Steel or Star Wars: The Old Republic or Tales of the Sword Coast.  I think that covers BioWare's entire catalog.  If I missed any game you can safely assume the number of times I've played it is zero.

My recollections may be faulty

 

Shattered Steel: 0

MDK 2: 0

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood: 0

Baldur's Gate: 2 (cheated the end both times)

Tales of the Sword Coast: 2

Baldur's Gate 2: 4 (Wild Mage, Druid, Barbarian..and...halfling thief)

Throne of Bhaal: 1

Neverwinter Nights: 2 (once with vanilla, once with a character I took through all the expansions and original game)

Shadows of Undrentide: 1

Hordes of the Underdark: 1

Knights of the Old Republic: 4 (possibly more)

The Old Republic: 0

Jade Empire: 9 (one for each body type, plus two more at least)

Mass Effect: 7 (4 main characters, main-main character played through at least three times)

Mass Effect 2: 2 (beat twice with two of my main imported characters)

Mass Effect 3: 1

Mass Effect Galaxy: 0

Dragon Age Origins: 7 (1 for each origin, did the noble twice (once male, once female)

Dragon Age 2: 4 (Hawke with each class, one replay where I didn't take Bethany to the underdark (which I did for my first game).

 

 

Wowzers Amentep based on your actual exposure to RPG that offer Romance I think a promotion in the promancer army is necessary, how would you feel about being a captain? It would be irresponsible to ignore someone with such experience to Romance in RPG :brows:

Edited by BruceVC

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I'd say one thing about ME2 - It had some interesting characters, especially those written by Chris L'Etoile (who mostly was the mind behind the science of the Mass effect universe in the first games). It also had some genuine laughs. I found that that plot and everything felt downright pointless & unengaging. Also the overall gameplay was dumbed a bit too much down to just a generic shooter.

The gameplay was improved. If you removed all RPG elements from both ME and ME2, ME2 would handily come out the victor. ME's gameplay was clunky and awkward. There wasn't anything about ME that was "smarter" than ME2's combat, unless you're just spamming "FORTIFICATION! *trollface*," in which case one could only say that ME2 was better balanced.

That's not what I was arguing. Sure, the shooting works better but ultimately, it's quite generic, and there's isn't any true customization to the equipment that makes the gameplay stand out. In fact, the only thing ME2 had going for it in its gameplay was cover-based shooting. Since Mr. planet exploration didn't show up for work, cover-based has to hold up all of the gameplay. I don't particularly miss the bouncy-castle-shopping-trolly-car-physics, but I miss the option of exploration which gave the game a sense of bigness. I also miss RPG elements which would have made me feel like ME2 was actually an RPG.

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Honestly, I think most people's views are a bit more nuanced than "Obsidian rockorz!" and "BioWare sucksorz!"

 

IMHO:

 

The difference between Obsidian and BioWare games is that the latter lack the soul of the former (while they also lack the huge amount of bugs Obsidian generally manages to generate) There's reasons why NWN2 > NWN1 and KotOR2 > KotOR1 and I'm pretty sure it's not just because it's big bad evil BioWare vs goody-two-shoes Obsidian. Of course both NWN2 and KotOR2 were buggy as hell on release (both also had rushed endings), par for the course for Obsidian (though I do hope they won't have this problem s much with PoE now that they get to set their own deadline), but even with all their defects I consider them superior to the BioWare predecessors (and I picked these two games because they provide a ground for direct comparison between the two companies)

 

Stating that BioWare games 'lack soul'  while Obsidian games have 'soul' is no more nuanced than saying "Obsidian rockorz!" and "BioWare sucksorz!"

 

BioWare designs games for mass appeal, but I don't see this as them selling out. They have always attempted to create the video game equivalent of the summer blockbuster within their specific genre of third-person party-based RPGs. BioWare attempting to make an Obsidian-like game would be like Spielberg trying to make a Stanley Kubrick film; the result would be both a bad BioWare game and a bad Obsidian game.

 

Alternatively, if you're making a Star Wars game, why try to develop it into a moody, introspective rumination on interconnection and how slippery ethics can be? I like KotOR 2, but I didn't find it particularly soulful. I found it an interesting example of how developers are not interchangeable when it comes to existing IPs. 

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"When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.

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Might as well join in:

 

Shattered Steel: 0

MDK 2: 0

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood: 0

Baldur's Gate: 1

Tales of the Sword Coast: 0 (I really ought to fix that)

Baldur's Gate 2: 6 or so (Wizard is the only true path, none of my other class playthroughs got very far)

Throne of Bhaal: 1.5

Neverwinter Nights: 0.5 (gave up after Luskan)

Shadows of Undrentide: 0

Hordes of the Underdark: 0

Knights of the Old Republic: 2 (light and dark side)

The Old Republic: 1 (Sith Inquisitor, started a few other characters but the generic quests got old fast)

Jade Empire: 2 or 3

Mass Effect: 4 (one for each romance and one romance-less, plus my very first playthrough)

Mass Effect 2: 6

Mass Effect 3: 1 (started a second, didn't get very far)

Mass Effect Galaxy: 0 (don't own any Apple devices and no plans on changing that)

Dragon Age Origins: 1.75 (finished once as mage, nearly finished it as warrior, started a few other playthroughs and I played most of the origins)

Dragon Age Origins: Awakening: 0.75 (got blocked from finishing by game breaking bug, haven't gotten back to it since it got patched)

Dragon Age 2: 1.25 (started as mage, found mage to be annoying/boring to play, restarted as rogue, finished as rogue siding with Mages, started as warrior to side with Templars but got bored before I got very far)

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BioWare attempting to make an Obsidian-like game would be like Spielberg trying to make a Stanley Kubrick film; the result would be both a bad BioWare game and a bad Obsidian game.

If you want to defend BioWare, perhaps arguing that they're the Steven Spielberg to Obsidian's Stanley Kubrick is... not the best way to do that?

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BioWare attempting to make an Obsidian-like game would be like Spielberg trying to make a Stanley Kubrick film; the result would be both a bad BioWare game and a bad Obsidian game.

If you want to defend BioWare, perhaps arguing that they're the Steven Spielberg to Obsidian's Stanley Kubrick is... not the best way to do that?

 

 

Please elaborate.

"When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.

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Please elaborate.

The difference between Spielberg and Kubrick doesn't come down solely to aspirations, but also quality and intelligence of their work. There isn't that kind of gulf (both in intentions and quality) between BioWare and Obsidian, and by using that kind of comparison you painted BioWare in an extremely bad light.

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Please elaborate.

The difference between Spielberg and Kubrick doesn't come down solely to aspirations, but also quality and intelligence of their work. There isn't that kind of gulf (both in intentions and quality) between BioWare and Obsidian, and by using that kind of comparison you painted BioWare in an extremely bad light.

 

 

Spielberg is largely considered one of the best directors to have ever lived. His work has been praised by such people as Alfred Hitch****, Quenten Tarantino, Martin Scorcese, Ridley Scott and..., oh, Stanley Kubrick.

 

Though yes, it now occurs to me that people who think Obsidian is awesome and BioWare is crap probably also think being compared to Spielberg is somehow not wildly overselling BioWare.

Edited by Maria Caliban
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"When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.

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Wowzers Amentep based on your actual exposure to RPG that offer Romance I think a promotion in the promancer army is necessary, how would you feel about being a captain? It would be irresponsible to ignore someone with such experience to Romance in RPG :brows:

I'm already considered a promancer, I think. I've expressed that I think romance is a part of the human experience that I think RPGs can contain and add to the development of character relationships. My big difference with other promancers is that I don't think a romance relationship is necessary (or even desirable) in every game. But certainly done in the right way, established in a game with the proper context I think it can be a valid (and interesting) PC-NPC character relationship (like friendship, siblings, parent-child, enemy or rival).

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Spielberg is largely considered one of the best directors to have ever lived. His work has been praised by such people as Alfred Hitch****, Quenten Tarantino, Martin Scorcese, Ridley Scott and..., oh, Stanley Kubrick.

Yes, to this day I keep asking myself what Kubrick saw in Spielberg, and I mostly liked Spielberg's work. I don't understand the outrage, I never even said BioWare is bad and Obsidian is awesome? Cool down a little bit.

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My one complaint against Spielburg is that he didn't backhand Lucas during pre-pro or production of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.

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"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
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Though yes, it now occurs to me that people who think Obsidian is awesome and BioWare is crap probably also think being compared to Spielberg is somehow not wildly overselling BioWare.

That's why we liked your post

I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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Spielberg has made a log of fantastic movies, but boy, he's been involved in quite a few downright awful movies too, especially in the latter part of his career.  In that sense, comparing BioWare to Spielberg may be a slap in the face of BioWare, as I only consider one of the games they've made to be truly awful, that being Dragon Age 2.  Granted, I tend to give Neverwinter Nights a pass because of how great Hordes of the Underdark was and all the fun I had with user created content, and while the last 15% of Mass Effect 3 was abysmal, overall I still think the game was quite good.

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I wonder if there is beer on the sun

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I never particularly cared for Hordes of the Underdark, in fact i'd say that Undrentide was far more enjoyable personally, i'm very much alone in this view however I realise.

 

Personally I think that simplifying those who raise legitimate criticisms of any developers games as haters is a little prejudicial, I care for neither Bioware or any other company, because most assuredly they care not a whit for me and i'll no doubt recieve neither birthday cards nor a pack of socks at Christmas. Criticism is a good thing, well ordered and logical criticism even better, and to dismiss any criticism and just rabidly defend all problematic aspects seems a touch too impassioned and involved.

 

Obsidian at the moment makes content I generally like, it does not mean that I wish to take warm baths with the gentlemen and ladies of that establishment, merely that our tastes are at the moment generally sympatico. If they fail to be so then I shall most assuredly move on as a good consumer should, without hurt feelings or a strange belief that they may "redeem" themselves.

Edited by Nonek
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Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

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I'm shocked by how many people never played MDK2:bat:

 

That was an awesome tough as nails shooter/platformer.

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