The Case for Romance.

[LadyCrimson]

I don't really understand the serious antipathy against romance, myself. I do get that sometimes it's a matter of resources/time that isn't available, say, but outside of that, again, as long as it's optional I don't see the harm in it being there. Although it does depend a bit on the individual game. Depending on themes/settings/plots I don't feel as if romance always has a place within it, just like I don't feel as if every movie would benefit from having a romantic subplot.

 

Which may be part of the polarizing effect on forum discussions - the impression, misguided or not, that some want romance in every rpg...where others want them to be more rare/selective or at least not included "just because."

 

I like romantic stories or subplots sometimes, but having it be reduced to several lines of dialogue choices options/a side-quest or two doesn't do much for me, personally.

[Calmar]

Don't you think you're getting a little bit too much involved over a non-existent matter? I mean, turning to biology to explain a desire to see love relationships between 2 almost faceless bunch of pixels in a random video game, come on.

Is this not enough to enjoy it when the writers want to do so and design the story accordingly? There are plenty alternate medium or even games to get your romance on. Why is nobody besieging CDProjekt or Eidos Montréal over this?

 

 

Personally, I am not particularily interested in PC-game romances, but by your logic, there needn't be any kind of relationship or interaction whatsoever between "almost faceless bunch of pixels in a random video game".

[NanoPaladin]

I don't really understand the serious antipathy against romance, myself. I do get that sometimes it's a matter of resources/time that isn't available, say, but outside of that, again, as long as it's optional I don't see the harm in it being there. Although it does depend a bit on the individual game. Depending on themes/settings/plots I don't feel as if romance always has a place within it, just like I don't feel as if every movie would benefit from having a romantic subplot.

 

Which may be part of the polarizing effect on forum discussions - the impression, misguided or not, that some want romance in every rpg...where others want them to be more rare/selective or at least not included "just because."

 

I like romantic stories or subplots sometimes, but having it be reduced to several lines of dialogue choices options/a side-quest or two doesn't do much for me, personally.

 

Who knows, I mean I can take a good flaming since I am tough skinned. 

 

Its like I said, I think that it needs to be something decided on early in the development process just like classes, combat style, art style all of that. Otherwise you risk botched writing.

[Zed]

Just say you just want some hot interracial fantasy sex. No-one will think worse of you. I mean, what's wrong with hot interracial fantasy sex? Where would leading CRPG development studio Bioware be without it?

I think it's best when it's based on a point-relationship system. That way anyone can get to the good stuff, even if they don't give a crap about reading. There should also be achievements when activating sex scenes. Also don't forget the potential for DLC based solely around players hoping to finally shag that one tsundere NPC follower.

Take notes, Sawyer.

[Sir Chaox]

Just say you just want some hot interracial fantasy sex. No-one will think worse of you. I mean, what's wrong with hot interracial fantasy sex? Where would leading CRPG development studio Bioware be without it?

I think it's best when it's based on a point-relationship system. That way anyone can get to the good stuff, even if they don't give a crap about reading. There should also be achievements when activating sex scenes. Also don't forget the potential for DLC based solely around players hoping to finally shag that one tsundere NPC follower.

Take notes, Sawyer.

 

Romance DLC. Bravo. 

[HereticSaint]

This has been done to death, unfortunately there's a serious disconnect between the reality of the situation and peoples perceived reality of the situation, I've named names in the past, but I'm over that. It's pretty obvious who we are talking about here though.

 

It really boils down to one point at the end of the day, why is there going to be a distinct lack of one facet of social interaction between characters when all others will exist? It makes it feel more akward, not less (Here's where people try and pin you for wanting some dating sim, or pointing at you as if you are some sexual deviant looking for virtual pornography). There's no good reason to not include romances beside potential limits on development time, just like there's no good reason to not include friendships beside potential limits on development time. That doesn't read as, "Every NPC in the game needs to be your love slave" as much as certain people want to read it as such.

 

Personally I'm a fan of leaving all forms of character interaction and development open as a potential and I think being diametrically opposed to a certain form of it because it may make some people uncomfortable is sort of a cop out. To me it's sort of the same thing as leaving out friendships in a game and going, "Why does your character need to befriend other characters? Are you completely socially inept in real life? Go get some real friends!" It's insulting and not based within reality.

 

This definitely isn't something that will make me hate, or even necessarily dislike the game so much as just make it seem more bland, and less fleshed out.

Edited February 13, 2014 by HereticSaint

[ItinerantNomad]

Just say you just want some hot interracial fantasy sex. No-one will think worse of you. I mean, what's wrong with hot interracial fantasy sex? Where would leading CRPG development studio Bioware be without it?

I think it's best when it's based on a point-relationship system. That way anyone can get to the good stuff, even if they don't give a crap about reading. There should also be achievements when activating sex scenes. Also don't forget the potential for DLC based solely around players hoping to finally shag that one tsundere NPC follower.

Take notes, Sawyer.

 

i think i need a handkerchief. i got sweaty just reading this.

[BruceVC]

Josh said they aren't going to do it even if 100% of fans wanted it so it's pretty pointless to make any new threads about it

 

Not really, there are many redundant threads that people discuss to death so why not the benefits of Romance?

[Ieo]

Shut it.

 

For the new people who have no idea about the previous arguments brought forth, save yourself some time and educate yourself.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61515-romance-and-friendship/
(page 11 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61515-romance-and-friendship/page__st__200)

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61676-the-unofficial-pe-relationshipromance-thread/
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61768-unofficial-pe-relationshipromance-thread-pt2/
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61886-unofficial-pe-relationshipromance-thread-pt-3/

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62215-relationshipromance-thread-iv/

[BruceVC]

The Case for Romance

 

First of all let me say that this is not a whiny thread by any means. The hope here is to have intellectual discussion and not a flame war. Anyways I will be building an unbiased case over the polarizing topic of romance in RPG’s. Some people love it, some people hate it. Through this topic I will be using nifty things like science and well thought points and counter points about this topic. Buckle up it will be quite a read. Mods feel free to shut the thread down if need be.

 

Romance is a good thing. Why? 

 

Let’s turn to science. What sorts of hormones are secreted in the brain during “love” as well as what they do.

 

Testosterone: Think Male hormone

 

Oestrogen:  Think Female hormone

 

Adrenaline:  The word adrenaline is used in common parlance to denote increased activation of the sympathetic system associated with the energy and excitement of the flight, fight and fright response, even though this is physiologically inaccurate. The influence of adrenaline is mainly limited to a metabolic effect and bronchodilator effect on organs devoid of direct sympathetic innervation.

 

Dopamine: The brain includes several distinct dopamine systems, one of which plays a major role in reward-motivated behavior. Every type of reward that has been studied increases the level of dopamine in the brain, and a variety of addictive drugs, including stimulants such as cocaine, amphetamine, and methamphetamine, act by amplifying the effects of dopamine.

 

Serotonin: It is popularly thought to be a contributor to feelings of well-being and happiness.

 

Oxytocin: Well, this hormone is what is called the “Bonding hormone”. It has quite a role in the neuroanatomy of intimacy. I won’t get too deep on this one but you are free to look it up!

 

Vasopressin: It plays a key role in homeostasis, by the regulation of water, glucose, and salts in the blood.

 

Now with that out of the way we need to ask the question, does any of that matter for a video game where the “love” is not “real”. Well perhaps we should examine ourselves first, do you not feel on edge during a horror movie? What about a horror game? Do you feel on edge when fighting an end boss that has been kicking the crap out of you? What sort of feelings do you have when you finally beat that boss? The answer to any of those ought to be yes. No matter how large or small the feeling is you are still feeling and secreting the hormones appropriately. That said NPC romances; while they may not be a “real” thing to some people they still feel the effects. We can most likely chalk up promancer attitude to Dopamine (reward-motivation).  

 

This brings up the next question, have romances in games been done right? Yes and no. I will get to that in counter-points though. Now I can offer up something I think would remedy this problem. Something like a romance subplot should not unravel in a mere 25 – 30 hours. They should take time to bloom and what that could mean is planting the seeds. Show the players that “hey, something could happen here but not yet.” Let the sub plot unfold over a series of games (assuming our characters are not dead) or in future expansion packs. This take on romance in games can be quite a new wind and might even solidify future sales. (Not necessarily a proven fact though). That said I do think that it can be taken with a different approach and not the normal approach we are used to.

 

Romance is bad. Why?

 

As we already know the developers have stated that PoE will not have romance in it. (Much to the promancer’s dismay). In the past game developers have often done a poor job in implementing romance to a story line. People seem to feel that it will detract from other aspects of characters and companions. The truth of the matter is that it very well may. I don’t know if people realize that each line spoken by a character, each choice in a decision tree costs money. PoE has a relatively small budget compared to most other titles made by a pedigree company. With an extremely tight budget something like romance might detract too much from a budget. Believe it or not this is just the cold hard truth.

 

What does not having romances allow? Well it can be quite a bit actually. What if the total cost for writing a romance is equivalent to an entirely new companion? Well it is completely possible though I would imagine that is a well written romance. Does it detract from the overall story or companion’s character? It can, like previously stated dialogue costs time and money which is something PoE just might not have right now. In terms of an NPC’s integrity it very well could take a well-rounded character and turn them into a mindless drooly for the Player-character.

 

Lastly we come to the Dev team itself. As we all know there are a couple of people in the Dev team that are outspokenly against romance. While they might be a minority among the team they are the ones that can make the difference. Let me ask you this, if you hate doing something, if it was not necessary to finishing a job would you do a good job on it if forced? More often than not the answer is no. As humans we want to do what we enjoy not bring in things we do not enjoy into that otherwise perfect mix.

 

In conclusion... 

 

There are plenty of reasons why to add and why not to add something like romance into a game. In all honesty we should view it as something as big as character classes. Most often game developers fail to implement well written romances into games and that could very well be a product of not planning for them ahead of writing a character or the main story. It might also be the fact that WRPGs and CRPGs are not the best medium to express that aspect of humanity. JRPGs can get away with easier since we are playing a story from the eyes of a pre-written character. WRPGs are the opposite, they tell the story from our eyes, as if we were there.

 

Any way that is all I have to say on this for now. I apologize for beating a dead horse now but this is something that has bothered me for some time. It feels nice to throw my thoughts on this out there. Please feel free to discuss and bring up opinions!!

 

Excellent post and thanks for taking the time to write on this topic. I wanted to do something similar but I didn't think people would be interested. Also remember that the vast majority of fans want Romance, it just so happens that there is a section of active and vociferous fans on these Obsidian forums that are fundamentally opposed to them so you will get some sort of opposition. But that doesn't change the fact that there are many valid cases for Romance in RPG

 

I'll keep updating this thread as I think of new ideas but one thing I want to touch on is this argument that " if Romances are not done properly then they shouldn't be done at all'. I find this comment nebulous and subjective. Firstly I can use this type of argument with any component of any RPG, like lore or class choice, and I can guarantee you someone will agree with me on some level. As far as Romance is concerned this is a game, not a novel like Gone with the Wind. We will never achieve the heights of a true Romance novel so if that's what people really expect from Romance in a game they will be disappointed.

 

People like me aren't asking for that, I was happy with the Romance options in BG2, FO:NV, ME and Dragon Age. Now people will say things like " those attempts to implement Romance were cheap and shallow" and  I'm am prepared to accept that personal view. This doesn't change the fact though this is the  type of Romance depth that most people were happy with. So lets not expect developers to reinvent the wheel. This would be a drain on resources and funds and would be quite possibly an unreasonable expectation.

 

Secondly all Romance options are optional, I'll say that again...optional. Why do people care so much about something that wouldn't impact there game if they didn't want to partake in it but it does make a difference to fans of this type of component of an RPG? I see this as a little selfish.

 

That's all for now

[BruceVC]

Shut it.

 

For the new people who have no idea about the previous arguments brought forth, save yourself some time and educate yourself.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61515-romance-and-friendship/

(page 11 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61515-romance-and-friendship/page__st__200)

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61676-the-unofficial-pe-relationshipromance-thread/

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61768-unofficial-pe-relationshipromance-thread-pt2/

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61886-unofficial-pe-relationshipromance-thread-pt-3/

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62215-relationshipromance-thread-iv/

 

No actually we don't want to shut it but your point is noted and dismissed with prejudice

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'd like to case your romance.

 

Edited February 13, 2014 by KaineParker

[BruceVC]

Just say you just want some hot interracial fantasy sex. No-one will think worse of you. I mean, what's wrong with hot interracial fantasy sex? Where would leading CRPG development studio Bioware be without it?

.

 

I think you are starting to get it, there is nothing wrong with interracial Romance and sex. This is going to be easier than I thought

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Secondly all Romance options are optional, I'll say that again...optional. Why do people care so much about something that wouldn't impact there game if they didn't want to partake in it but it does make a difference to fans of this type of component of an RPG? I see this as a little selfish.

 

 

No, we're not selfish. We don't want something half-arsed thrown in to cater for a minority who want a half-arsed romance. And that's what I'm seeing a lot of in these types of threads. Some people want romances no matter what. There are also people who don't mind romances, but we don't want it in if Obsidian don't have the time and resources to put it in properly.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Secondly all Romance options are optional, I'll say that again...optional. Why do people care so much about something that wouldn't impact there game if they didn't want to partake in it but it does make a difference to fans of this type of component of an RPG? I see this as a little selfish.

 

 

No, we're not selfish. We don't want something half-arsed thrown in to cater for a minority who want a half-arsed romance. And that's what I'm seeing a lot of in these types of threads. Some people want romances no matter what. There are also people who don't mind romances, but we don't want it in if Obsidian don't have the time and resources to put it in properly.

 

 

You see this is the part that I don't understand or is applicable to the Romance argument. In my opinion Obsidian have made a decision they don't want Romance in PoE, the reason raised was its a strain of resources and if they can't do it properly so they don't want to do it at all. I respect that as end of the day who is anyone to tell Obsidian the ultimate game design direction of PoE.

 

But this is also a form of reverse psychology, its like saying " I can cook you dinner tonight but the meal won't be very tasty and I'll use ingredients that won't  work  together".  What person in there right mind is going to say " okay that sounds like a good idea".

 

But this doesn't change the fact that Obsidian has been involved in Romance implementations in the past that the vast bulk of promancers were happy with, so is it unreasonable to ask them to do it again?

[Death Machine Miyagi]

But this doesn't change the fact that Obsidian has been involved in Romance implementations in the past that the vast bulk of promancers were happy with, so is it unreasonable to ask them to do it again?

 

People who were happy with...say, the original NWN2 campaign romances must be setting their expectations really, really low. 

 

Do it right or don't it at all, I say.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

But this is also a form of reverse psychology, its like saying " I can cook you dinner tonight but the meal won't be very tasty and I'll use ingredients that won't  work  together".  What person in there right mind is going to say " okay that sounds like a good idea".

 

A starving person isn't going to knock back a meal despite the ingredients being all mixed up.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Messier-31]

TL;DR

 

Wait for mods or PoE 2, which if like BG2 will include romances because modders love making them almost as much as nude mods.

 

Or mods like BBB (big bouncing boobs). Long live the modding community!

[BruceVC]

 

 

But this is also a form of reverse psychology, its like saying " I can cook you dinner tonight but the meal won't be very tasty and I'll use ingredients that won't  work  together".  What person in there right mind is going to say " okay that sounds like a good idea".

 

A starving person isn't going to knock back a meal despite the ingredients being all mixed up.

 

True but  in this case metaphorically I don't  consider promancers as starving. So if the reason given by a company for not implementing Romances is because "they can't do them properly" who would then insist they are still part of the game.

 

But is that the real reason? Or are there other factors at play

[Alfiriel]

Josh said they aren't going to do it even if 100% of fans wanted it so it's pretty pointless to make any new threads about it

 

Which actually is a pretty terrible statement for a developer that just had his major project paid by those devoted fans he is so easily dismissing now.

 

Statements like this reduce the chance to get money for new projects dignificantly... not becausr of the romance but because of the bland disrespect towadds the fans.

 

If fans pay your project you better listen to their wishes because they are basically your one and only investor.... telling them that you will ignlre them even if they all have the same opinion on a topic seems ... well

[Monte Carlo]

[AwesomeOcelot]

 

Josh said they aren't going to do it even if 100% of fans wanted it so it's pretty pointless to make any new threads about it

 

Which actually is a pretty terrible statement for a developer that just had his major project paid by those devoted fans he is so easily dismissing now.

 

Statements like this reduce the chance to get money for new projects dignificantly... not becausr of the romance but because of the bland disrespect towadds the fans.

 

If fans pay your project you better listen to their wishes because they are basically your one and only investor.... telling them that you will ignlre them even if they all have the same opinion on a topic seems ... well

 

Hell no, I'd hate to see the day we get fan made games with the amount of idiots about.

[milczyciel]

Josh said they aren't going to do it even if 100% of fans wanted it so it's pretty pointless to make any new threads about it

Which actually is a pretty terrible statement for a developer that just had his major project paid by those devoted fans he is so easily dismissing now.

 

Statements like this reduce the chance to get money for new projects dignificantly... not becausr of the romance but because of the bland disrespect towadds the fans.

 

If fans pay your project you better listen to their wishes because they are basically your one and only investor.... telling them that you will ignlre them even if they all have the same opinion on a topic seems ... well

 

Chill out, it's out of context and only because of that it sounds like Josh does not give a <insert yoour favourite impolite word here>

The actual quote goes like that:

 

Even if 100% of fans wanted them, I don't believe we have the time and other resources to implement them well.  I am not inherently opposed to romances, but I don't want to spend time implementing something I'm not confident we will be able to execute at a high level of quality.

Edited February 13, 2014 by milczyciel

[NanoPaladin]

 

 

I'll keep updating this thread as I think of new ideas but one thing I want to touch on is this argument that " if Romances are not done properly then they shouldn't be done at all'. I find this comment nebulous and subjective. Firstly I can use this type of argument with any component of any RPG, like lore or class choice, and I can guarantee you someone will agree with me on some level. As far as Romance is concerned this is a game, not a novel like Gone with the Wind. We will never achieve the heights of a true Romance novel so if that's what people really expect from Romance in a game they will be disappointed.

 

 

 

I will agree on this, anything that will not be done properly should not be done at all no matter what the implication is.  That said the only way developers, or any one, can get better at something is through trial and error. Practice makes perfect. As long as it is something you want to practice.

 

 

Was this really a needed contribution? I mean really man how old are we? 12? I understand this is the internet and all but come on there is no need to post useless things.

[Monte Carlo]

^ Yes. Because you are wasting bandwidth. This conversation was had months ago. Use the search function. You have necro resurrected a dead, dishwater dull argument that is now settled.

 

Your post, sir, is butt-hurt. I am merely pointing it out. If you find that immature, then ponder this: I'm not the one who wants a pretend girlfriend in a bloody videogame.