InExile is plotting to ruin Torment by making it turn-based

[Guest Slinky]

 

Great news. Very pleased with the decision. PST, in my eyes, always suffered from not being TB, but now that will be compensated. Very good, very good.

 

In PST I ran past a lot of the combat. Can't do that with TB.

 

 

There's not supposed to be any trash enemies so I don't see the need to skip combat, if that is really the case.

[Humanoid]

There's nothing mandating that turn based combat be several minutes either (especially if it's the type that would've been over very quickly with RTwP).

 

The most important thing here, however, is that the devs are working with a system that they want to work on.

 

Well yeah, that'd be a game killer right there. But there's also the compulsion some game designers have with taking this type of option where they'll make a simple "I want to kill this person" into a big set piece fight as if doing otherwise would be having not enough game content. Yet they're perfectly content to make the speech option a single-click "I win" button.

 

DXHR took the opposite approach of course in making both approaches require "work". But at least it generally didn't contrive to turn things into big set piece fights if you failed.

 

 

Vaguely related - since I'm done with XCOM and have little to do, I'm toying with the idea of finally finishing DAO, a game completely murdered by its combat, with instant combat win cheats or mods (no idea what's available). I'd love, absolutely love the idea of doing the same with TOR, but obviously that sort of thing would be rather frowned upon in an MMO. They're not even games I think fail in terms of combat because there's too much of it, because the way I play, I'm finding any amount of combat is too much. Just like Darklands before it.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Humanoid

[Darkpriest]

To be honest I am more in favor of Turn Based combat, because that means there is no excuse for not implementing some super cool spell visuals like we had in the Planescape. Since it is Turn based you can have all the time in the world to see the incantation and delivery of high level spell with all its glorious effects!

 

RTwP has its limitation, because it has to be fairly fast and not clutter the screen too much so you can still see the battlefield and react.

[Bester]

Most people who voted TB don't even understand what it is, confusing it with rtwp. 

Others just heard TB must be some RPG hardcore thing.

 

Neither of the two groups actually played a TB game.

 

A small part of those who voted actually played and understood the concept. Ridiculous.

[Darkpriest]

I like the system like in Fallout had or some two action system aka new XCOM has.

 

TB can really be fun, even more so than RTwP, because you can add all different kinds of animations and "finishers", which you simply can't put in any RT game because of the pace/balance issues.

 

I like the TB approach and I hope they can deliver on it. There is however a risk that TB can be overly complicated and simply bad... I could not stand Arcanum TB combat system. I also had some issues with ToEE combat system. Age of Decadence seems to get it right (albeit they have issues with combat balance), but that system and some really cool spell animations and effects can go a long way in making TB experience enjoyable. Firaxis understood it and made their TB system fairly simple yet still retaining tactical depth and added some cool animations sauce.

[Undecaf]

 

Great news. Very pleased with the decision. PST, in my eyes, always suffered from not being TB, but now that will be compensated. Very good, very good.

 

In PST I ran past a lot of the combat. Can't do that with TB.

 

 

Sure you can, but why would you want to? The crises don't sound like situations you'd want to wave off.

[sfg]

Most people who voted TB don't even understand what it is, confusing it with rtwp. 

Others just heard TB must be some RPG hardcore thing.

 

Neither of the two groups actually played a TB game.

 

A small part of those who voted actually played and understood the concept. Ridiculous.

 

I see, so whoever votes TB is wrong automatically. Nobody can like TB. The correct choice is RTwP. Because you say so. Gotcha.

And seeing the usual arguments against TB I would say that those who vote for RTwP have never even seen, let alone played, a TB game.

Edited December 7, 2013 by sfg

[kenup]

Most people who voted TB don't even understand what it is, confusing it with rtwp. 

Others just heard TB must be some RPG hardcore thing.

 

Neither of the two groups actually played a TB game.

 

A small part of those who voted actually played and understood the concept. Ridiculous.

Are... Are you talking about yourself?

[Farks]

I'd prefer real-time like the original, but don't mind this change. As long as the combat speed isn't too slow and the encounters aren't too long.

[Gromnir]

 

 

The most important thing here, however, is that the devs are working with a system that they want to work on.

am doubting that is true. what has been obsidian's best games? we has heard various/numerous obsidian folks complain 'bout infinity engine, d&d and star wars, but they soldiered through admirably for many o' those titles. compare to alpha protocol. can list dozens or hundreds of developers and artists that has worked grudgingly on projects. wanna gets a history lesson o' actors, architects, writers, painters and sculptors that were working on projects that they disliked?  am even recalling a few athletes who hated their sport, or got to the point they hated their sport, just before they achieved some noteworthy pinnacle. heck, some o' our best work has been for clients we loathed and causes we were indifferent to. am suspecting that game development is no different than any other endeavour. professionals usually sac-up and get the job done, regardless o' their personal feelings. sure, is more than a few candy-arsed milksops who can't do their best work unless they "feel" something for the project, but we suspect they is few and far between in a commercial driven industry such as game development. 

 

in this case the developer already has a tb engine with which they is comfortable. am recalling that at least one obsidian developer claimed that the reason torn failed is 'cause the engine they licensed did not work as advertised. get six months away from original projected release date only to realize that your engine purchase were a blunder? use a licensed engine would appear to be having perils. Gromnir is not tech savvy enough to guesstimate how pragmatic it is to try and make wasteland 2 engine into a rtwp, but it sounds like that weren't a viable option. start from scratch and makes a new engine? well now, nothing wrong with that... save for the considerable time and expense needed to realize. for the torment developers to be choosing rtwp woulda' been a bit of a surprise, regardless o' the vote. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[bussinrounds]

 

 

Great news. Very pleased with the decision. PST, in my eyes, always suffered from not being TB, but now that will be compensated. Very good, very good.

 

In PST I ran past a lot of the combat. Can't do that with TB.

 

 

Sure you can, but why would you want to? The crises don't sound like situations you'd want to wave off.

 

Some of these 'Torment fans' would prob be better off with a visual novel or straight up adventure game, I think.  

Edited December 7, 2013 by bussinrounds

[Cultist]

Delicious

Edited December 7, 2013 by Cultist

[babaganoosh13]

 

 

 

I grew up with it. I have a hard time hating it, or thinking it would ruin a game; especially one based on a PnP game/universe. I certainly don't hate RTwP by any stretch, however as many people have stated before: Combat was the weakest part of PS:T. It was the couple of bad stocks of asparagus in a fantastic meal.

[sorophx]

oooh, boy, I remember Dark Sun, thinking about those games still gives me shivers 

[Zoraptor]

 

In PST I ran past a lot of the combat. Can't do that with TB.

 

Sure you can, most encounters in Fallout could be avoided by running to the exit grid, same with Jagged Alliance 2. It isn't as quick as in RTwP, but it's doable.

 

Running past the combat in PST wasn't exactly a perfect solution either and I did it mainly to avoid pointless combat from aggroed thugs. It looked like a Benny Hill chase scene and relied on most (any? cannot remember any ranged weapons in PST exc magic) enemies not having ranged weapons.

[licketysplit]

I didn't think combat was good enough in PST for this to even be an issue. 

[AGX-17]

I didn't think combat was good enough in PST for this to even be an issue.

Nostalgia goggles are a hell of a thing. Well, I suppose it's not impossible that there are legitimate RTwP fetishists out there who only played P:T for the combat and thought the story, characters and roleplaying were needless fluff.

 

Ignoring, of course, the irony that D&D is a turn-based system originally.

Edited December 7, 2013 by AGX-17

[alanschu]

Eh, it's more just that it's different and people are afraid that if it's not exactly the same it won't have the same magic (which is pretty human).  Even if I find the response surprising.  But then I also didn't mind FO3 coming out from Bethesda because frankly it was unlikely we were ever going to get a top down isometric one, so I probably also see Torment 2 as that.

 

This is part of what I didn't like about calling it Torment 2 (deviations will be seen as sacrilege and will create expectations that perhaps cannot even possibly be met), although the comments also indicate that a non-trivial amount pledged for it simply because they saw it as a vote for more games with RTwP than for another Torment style game.

 

Part of the challenges of kickstarting a game that is still very much in preproduction, however.

[Gromnir]

is not all that ironic. am recalling when a current obsidian developer blasted tim cain 'bout similar espoused tb d&d pretensions. the obstinate noted that d&d is a pnp rpg and a person gotta be pretty darn obtuse to ignore the fact that the a pnp gaming group is a far different experience than that of a lone person siting in front o' a computer screen playing a crpg. 

 

we voted tb, but all things being equal, we thinks rtwp is more accessible to a larger group o' potential purchasers. am suspecting that very few o' us who prefer tb woulda' done more than grouse a bit if torment were revealed to be a rtwp game.  typical codexian rants proclaim how inferior infinity and aurora engine combat were to fallouts... go into rabid tirades 'bout how unplayable bg, ps:t, iwd, bg2, tob, nwn, iwd2, nwn2, & soz were... not to mention the d20 influenced kotor and kotor2. the real irony is the frothy madness that codexians attach to all those games they pirated or purchased and played for total hours equivalent to coursework needed for a freaking phd. the typical tb aficionado plays rtwp games, but there is a significant group o' folks who simple will not play tb.. at least that is what publishers has believed for decades.

 

want irony? tim cain did more to retard the progress of tb gaming than any person we care to mention. That is irony. game industry is extreme reactive. diablo were successful. next Decade sees dozens o' diablo clones. 'course failure is also resulting in overreaction. ps:t failed commercially and it has taken more than 15 years to gets a "sequel" made. toee were supposed to be guaranteed money, with 2 subsequent games based on old-skool d&d modules being planned to follow toee. cain's flop reinforced the possibly misguided notion among publishers that nobody actual wanted top play a tb crpg, even when d&d crpgs were at their most popular. yeah, there were dozens o' things wrong with toee, but if you were a publisher investing millions o' dollars on high-risk games, why take the chance on another tb rpg? tim cain: slayer of turn-based gaming. go figure.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[ilhdr]

All of this survey non-sense was a terrible idea anyway

[obyknven]

Main disadvantage of turn-based combat is time-consuming. If for avoid this devs make synchronous enemy turn (not one per another) - then i am ok from this.

[BruceVC]

Most people who voted TB don't even understand what it is, confusing it with rtwp. 

Others just heard TB must be some RPG hardcore thing.

 

Neither of the two groups actually played a TB game.

 

A small part of those who voted actually played and understood the concept. Ridiculous.

 

I have to be honest but I was guilty of this, I mistook the nuances between the 2 and did vote for TB when I really meant to vote for Tbwp. But its too late now and my vote is cast 

[obyknven]

Main disadvantage of turn-based combat is time-consuming. If for avoid this devs make synchronous enemy turn (not one per another) - then i am ok from this.

Just as example of such system.

http://youtu.be/A9nZ43iwS-c

 

Original TRPG use sequential turn-based system due limitations of gamers. Meanwhile video games don't have such limitations, computer can just simulate "reality" and perform all calculation without boring tabletop gameplay elements. Copypaste rules of tabletop games into computer games is just stupid.

 

[Darkpriest]

While I like Frozen Synapse, I feel like the sequential TB is better for RPGs. There is a lot more skills and "abilities" to be used, and probably quite a lot of AoEs, plus there will be also melee engagement. All this would make it rather hard to implement in synchronous TB system. Frozen Synapse is fairly simple by comparison in terms of variables and combat methods

[Elerond]

 

Main disadvantage of turn-based combat is time-consuming. If for avoid this devs make synchronous enemy turn (not one per another) - then i am ok from this.

Just as example of such system.

http://youtu.be/A9nZ43iwS-c

 

Original TRPG use sequential turn-based system due limitations of gamers. Meanwhile video games don't have such limitations, computer can just simulate "reality" and perform all calculation without boring tabletop gameplay elements. Copypaste rules of tabletop games into computer games is just stupid.

 

 

 

This is kind of system that I would have most liked see in TToN and it was too bad that they decided against even make a draft for this kind of system.