InExile is plotting to ruin Torment by making it turn-based

[melkathi]

Arcanum combat was equally unbalanced if played real time. Especially the XP thing was not a result of TB but the result of a problematic combat and experience point design in general. One could equally well say that Arcanum shows how real time combat unbalances the game, as higher rates of attack would result in more hits and therefor a higher xp gain for specific characters (think thrown weapon masters, high magical aptitude with the unique chakram that caused timestop on hit).

 

With other games, what real time seems to always clash with is party AI. For example when aggro range is wonkily defined and while you are looting after combat and trying to heal up, some npc has used superman's x-ray vision, looked through several walls and decided to race out of the room, to turn five corners to charge a sentry (happened to me in NWN2 the day before yesterday...)

[Osvir]

I have not read the entirety of this thread but I did read some of it some time ago (a week ago maybe? It has grown)

Anyways. This is my opinion on it. I don't think Turn-Based is initially a bad thing, and for this case particularly it might be wise (economically and resourcefully) for inXile to go with a Turn-Based system. But in a "spiritual" successor sense (Infinity Engine~) it might not be so wise.

The developer is right in choosing to go with Turn-Based for Numenera for some reasons (The most obvious one, Wasteland 2 is Turn-Based, inXile already has a system which they can polish & adjust further on Torment. It'd be cheaper for inXile). But will it feel like Planescape: Torment if Numenera has Turn-Based? Probably not. Eternity will most likely feel like the old-school Infinity Engine games thanks to their RTwP system. I do fear that Numenera will feel like Wasteland 2 instead of Infinity Engine. If they go full on with the Turn-Based system I do hope that it at least feels like Temple of Elemental Evil.

More stuff~ Questions and hypotethical/analytical answers:
Q - Will it feel like an Infinity Engine game with Turn-Based?
A - No. But maybe it will feel Fallout-, ToEE-, Arcanum-, or Wasteland 2-ish (Most likely the latter).

Q - Will it feel like a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment?
A - Maybe? Plot-wise, World-wise, philsophically, maybe.

Q - Will it be cheaper for inXile to use Turn-Based?
A - Probably, they have a Turn-Based system for Wasteland 2 they can use for Numenera. In essence: They can spend more resources on world-building and make Numenera bigger and not worry too much about their combat system.

Q - Will you want to play Numenera right after you've played Wasteland 2?
A - Maybe, do you like Turn-Based games? Chances are that Players will have spent energy on Wasteland 2, and if Numenera has too much resemblance in its Turn-Based system, it'll feel like playing the same game but with different art assets.

Q - Could a hybrid system function? RT elements combined with popular TB elements? (Real Time with Pause & Turn Based Hexgrids?)
A - I HAVE NO IDEA I AM JUST THROWING AN IDEA OUT WHILST FLAILING MY ARMS SQUAWKING LIKE A BIIRDY! KWAA KWAA!

[Blodhemn]

 

 

A development even after starting the project might change its focus and pace in the timeline, and it is not a rare circumstance, that there are at some point implemented some minor and major changes, such is the reality in almost every software project put on table, and on which I have in the past worked... What is honoring inXile, that they are consulting these changes with their customers... Not many companies do that...

They already made their choice. It makes no sense to "consult" backers at this point, other than some lame PR. Do they really need outsiders making decisions for them? I thought they're supposed to be experienced game developers. 

 

 

During their kickstarter campaign they said that they will draft couple different combat systems that in their opinion will work fine in the game so that people can give their opinion about them and then most of the backers though that was good plan, which is reason why they now ask backers opinion about it. Although during drafting those said combat systems they have started to favor one over other, because in their opinion it's easier and faster to implement, which of course don't mean that it would be the best system for the game, which it is in my opinion, not because it easier to implement, but how they describe it to work versus how they describe other system to work.

 

Informative answer.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I consider DA2 to be an excellent case study for game design, I can say that its worth mulling over it because it was bad.

Out of morbid curiosity, why?

[sorophx]

 

 It'd be cheaper for inXile). But will it feel like Planescape: Torment if Numenera has Turn-Based? Probably not.

but... why give a ****? so it won't feel like Planescape. how is that a bad thing?  I didn't like Torment for Planescape, D&D, and most certainly not for combat. I liked it for its characters and plot

[Osvir]

 

 

 It'd be cheaper for inXile). But will it feel like Planescape: Torment if Numenera has Turn-Based? Probably not.

but... why give a ****? so it won't feel like Planescape. how is that a bad thing?  I didn't like Torment for Planescape, D&D, and most certainly not for combat. I liked it for its characters and plot

First of all: Ditto.

 

Second: I don't care if it's RT or TB. I'm just analyzing and presenting hypothesis. I don't mind either TB or RT, I like both systems but they are very different in terms of perspective, pacing and experience. It determines how I move my characters in the world.

 

RT = More freedom

TB = More restriction

[melkathi]

Q - Will you want to play Numenera right after you've played Wasteland 2?

A - Maybe, do you like Turn-Based games? Chances are that Players will have spent energy on Wasteland 2, and if Numenera has too much resemblance in its Turn-Based system, it'll feel like playing the same game but with different art assets.

 

 

I think there will be quite some time between the two releases so you can have a nice big break.

[marelooke]

Wow, Torment actually got more backers than eternety project. I'm a bit sad that more people were interested in it than eternety, because for some reason i never liked the concept or lore of the Torment world.

 

I wasn't even on Kickstarter when P:E was announced so I missed the KS campaign, I did back via PayPal though.

 

Now disregarding preferences in combat. For those of us who will try to play the game with as little combat as possible, a vote for "turn based" is probably the way to go:

...

b) the player will play all party members themselves -> no party AI needed -> the devs can spend more time on other cool stuff

I generally tend to turn off any party AI other than the most basic, *especially* for casters.

 

 

Personally I voted RTwP for three reasons:

 1) I've had heaps of fun with the combat in many RTwP games (BG series, comes to mind, but also, IWD and DA:O)

 2) PS:T was RTwP. PS:T also had an atrocious UI (which for me killed much of the enjoyment of the game, and not just the combat)

 3) There are a quite a few turn based RPGs coming up (Wasteland 2, Divinity: Original Sin, Deathfire: Ruins of Nevermore), not so much RTwP (only P:E afaik)

 4) So far I've enjoyed RTwP more than pure TB, though my experience with the latter is more limited (HOMM & Shadowrun Returns mostly, though judging by the WL2 footage it looks similar to SRR's).

 

EDIT: typo's

Edited November 26, 2013 by marelooke

[Orogun01]

 

I consider DA2 to be an excellent case study for game design, I can say that its worth mulling over it because it was bad.

Out of morbid curiosity, why?

 

To develop a good sense of taste you have to learn the good and the bad and why they are.

[Diagoras]

ITT: Too many people who haven't read the Crisis design document.

[Orogun01]

ITT: Too many people who haven't read the Crisis design document.

Nowhere had they said that the Crisis where turn based so it still merits discussion.

[Keyrock]

 

 

I consider DA2 to be an excellent case study for game design, I can say that its worth mulling over it because it was bad.

Out of morbid curiosity, why?

 

To develop a good sense of taste you have to learn the good and the bad and why they are.

 

It's true.  What I learned from DA2:  Shockingly, lather, rinse, repeat combat facing wave after wave of trash mobs is not fun.  In fact, it straight up sucks ass.  Who knew?

Edited November 27, 2013 by Keyrock

[Hassat Hunter]

HH, you are aware that most of the team that made PS:T are back together, writing T:ToN, and many of the others were hired specifically for their writing skills? Colin McComb was Chris Avellone's closest collaborator on PS:T, Saint Christopher himself is on the roster, George Ziets wrote some of the best bits of Mask of the Betrayer, Shanna Germain is a kick-ass writer deeply involved with writing Numenera itself, Monte Cook who authored Numenera also wrote a huge amount of stuff for Planescape, and Patrick Rothfuss is a best-selling novelist?

 

If you are aware of that, what kind of proof about the ability to write a good story would satisfy your needs, exactly?

No, I was not aware of that... sadly, before reading your post I read THIS:

inXile has nothing to do with BGEE whatsoever.

and thus decided to google them, and saw their track-record of games on Wikipedia.

 

Yeah, all newborn faith was instantly drained away.

 

I think the big issue about the TBS and RTwP discussion is... it can be seen as a sign of developer incompetance. PE had it's system working way before somewhat before the Kickstarter, and they worked on it since.

How long has it been since the Torment one? Shouldn't they HAVE a system by now? If not, wtf where they doing?

It seems all good and well to ask the public, but so late? It does reek of whatever system we are going to get, it's all an after-thought and mockup anyway, and neither is going to be as good as when the developer sticked to one of the 2 way earlier and plotted their thoughts on that. Even making several working systems and all testing them would deter from the amount of work that could have been done else, honing the chosen system.

It all seems like story first, and then we see what kind of game we build around that. Not exactly a good game-making strategy.

My 2 cents on why the poll is causing some doomthinking amongst several...

[Tigranes]

Unlike Obsidian, inXile has not really had continuity in their personnel throughout its entire history except for, of course, Brian Fargo. After all, Obsidian has by and large been able to keep the same scale and direction of games throughout, and when it had to fire people it would try and re-hire them; it also remained pretty large throughout. inXile went through fat and lean periods, e.g. laying off most of its company after Hunted, and in the case of W2 and Torment, has hired people specifically for these projects through funds granted by Kickstarter. 

 

In other words, inXile's track record in terms of games doesn't matter quite as much as Brian Fargo's ability to put this team together and see it through. In this case it's actually correct to decide to have / not have faith based on his track record. And everything I hear suggests if anything he's a great manager. 

 

Torment was Kickstarted at pre-production stage and had a deliberately lengthy pre-production in order to focus more on writing, and to ensure a smooth transition where staff working on W2 could work on Torment - and to ensure there's a gap between the two games releasing. So it's still early stages, by design. 

 

That said, I still don't think the poll was a good idea, they should have just gotten opinions then made their own decision.

[ShadySands]

That said, I still don't think the poll was a good idea, they should have just gotten opinions then made their own decision.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you said except this because this is essentially what they are doing. Only they are getting the opinions with the poll. It's non-binding and they've said it's purely for advisory purposes and will decide according to what they deem to be best

[Dream]

So exactly how much faith should we have in a company that thinks laying off most of its work force is the way to go.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Dream

[Orogun01]

So exactly how much faith should we have in a company that thinks laying off most of its work force is the way to go.

They had their ups and downs, it is also a common practice in the industry to hire on a per project basis. I also don't know what specific instance you're referring to so I can only speculate but they have stayed small, developing mostly for IOS with a few forays into mainstream.

[Dream]

I was referring to what tigranes said.

 

Also none of what you said was reassuring; if anything it further reinforces the idea that this "thematic sequel" is nothing more than a nostalgia fueled cash grab.

[Orogun01]

I was referring to what tigranes said.

 

Also none of what you said was reassuring; if anything it further reinforces the idea that this "thematic sequel" is nothing more than a nostalgia fueled cash grab.

Yes, because that's how a Ponzi scheme works. You take the money and put in the work until you deliver a product and then end up on the same condition as you started hoping that other people are foolish enough to fall for your scheme. Torment may be many things but seeing as the company seems to be hoping to make a comeback based on the 2 games they have in production, I sincerly doubt that its a cash grab.

[Nanakamado]

Paradoxally combat system is important... The story was the most important part of P:T, that is fact.

 

And now: TB means long tactical combat, which is sometimes more important  than storyline.

RTwP means fast combat, and then more storyline.

 

I like TB combat, but I don't fell it's good for Torment.

[alanschu]

So exactly how much faith should we have in a company that thinks laying off most of its work force is the way to go.

 

I haven't been the biggest supporter of the new Torment by any means, but this isn't necessary and is basically just latching onto something without understanding the contexts that may have occurred to have caused this to happen and so forth.

 

 

At this point I think it's safe to say that a sizeable number of people have enough faith in Brian, inXile, and the crew recruited in by the Kickstarter team to take a flyer on the Kickstarter itself.

 

Which would still include me.

[Dream]

Oh I backed it as well because even the off chance of another game like PS:T is worth the price of admission to me, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to take everything Fargo tells me with a massive dose of skepticism (and he hasn't really shown me anything to placate that mindset).

 

After all this isn't some starving game developer working on a passion project but a millionaire CEO who's good with sales pitches.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Dream

[Gizmo]

I certainly voted Turn Based; a really close fight all the way.  I am partial to turn based, but would have voted RT/wP if the game had been a sequel to Planescape ~but it's not one. Doesn't seem to be Planescape related at all really, so I voted Turn based because there is no prior obligation to make it RT/wP.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Gizmo

[alanschu]

Oh I backed it as well because even the off chance of another game like PS:T is worth the price of admission to me, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to take everything Fargo tells me with a massive dose of skepticism (and he hasn't really shown me anything to placate that mindset).

 

The crusade goes quite a bit beyond a massive dose of skepticism, particularly when you aim to scrutinize aspects that you can't be anything more than completely oblivious to the finer details.  I don't think there's anything he could show that would make you happy, at this rate.  At least, you certainly seem to be taking great joy in pointing out how we've all been hoodwinked out of our money by a shyster.

 

But I guess you're at a place where whether the game is good or not, you have a position by which you can be satisfied with.  Unless you make it a habit of contributing to the bank account of millionaire CEOs that you don't trust to deliver on a project that you think is done in bad faith while also being misrepresented.

 

 

Or maybe I'm just cranky because of some insomnia.

Edited November 27, 2013 by alanschu

[Orogun01]

Stress related insomnia? If so maybe you should decompress, anyways sleep well soon.