Margaret Thatcher is dead

[Monte Carlo]

^ Thanks for the selective quoting, where I said "Some of..."

 

Knob.

[Malcador]

Well, at least they're not canonizing her quite yet. Did at least learn about Britain and the Khmer Rouge from it, didn't know SAS allegedly trained some of them.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I do have to thank Thatcher for pissing off British comic creators enough to create such fine things like Judge Dredd and Hellblazer.

 

So thanks for making life in the UK so miserable that some people made some excellent comics. In the spirit of privatisation, you should install a toilet above your grave and charge people for the privilege of desecrating your grave.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

intellectual pygmies attacking her legacy are beneath contempt.

 

Ah yes, insulting people. That always raises oneself above contempt and helps underline the truth of one's own opinion *nodnod*

 

Interesting how the most venom in this thread does not come from the people who disliked her, but from her supporters.

Eh, this thread is actually pretty mild. I think that this one is a bit better.

[melkathi]

^ Thanks for the selective quoting, where I said "Some of..."

 

Knob.

 

The "some of" obviously just meaning that, while a number of the intellectual pygmies are beneath contempt, others, though still intellectual pygmies, aren't beneath contempt.

 

Now if you wanted to react the way you did and be justified in doing so, you may have wanted to say: "Some of the people attacking her legacy are intellectual pygmies beneath contempt."

 

But an educated gentleman like yourself does of course not require lessons in syntax from random people on the internet.

[Raithe]

Well Maggie has always been a person who really depended on your point of view. She was ruthless about crushing the unions that were behind those fun joys of the 3 day week, the aforementioned unburied bodies, stopped electricity and suchlike. But likewise, in that process she also smashed a few local economies and left a lot of families feelin the hurt.  Things that might help a nation don't always help all the areas within that nation.

 

No matter what gets said though, she was influential to the times, and regardless of her policies she did work hard at what she believed in and trying to do what she thought was best. Not everyone will agree with her views, but she certainly didn't have the smarmy attitude of a lot of todays politicians.

[obyknven]

Hmm, looks like many people celebrate of this death.

 

 

[Meshugger]

Every whine and piece of childish vitriol just reinforces how much she eviscerated the Left. Good.

 

I am old enough to remember the three day week, electricity cuts, unburied bodies and no bread in the shops in the 1970's under the Socialist grip of the Labour Government, who couldn't do anything without the agreement of the Trades Unions. Besides, some of the most egregious bull**** about Margaret Thatcher is from kids who probably don't even remember her time in office.

 

This is the woman who recognised Gorbachov as a man the West could do business with. Some of the intellectual pygmies attacking her legacy are beneath contempt.

 

RIP Baroness Thatcher.

 

3 day week?

[Calax]

I am old enough to remember the three day week, electricity cuts, unburied bodies and no bread in the shops in the 1970's under the Socialist grip of the Labour Government, who couldn't do anything without the agreement of the Trades Unions. Besides, some of the most egregious bull**** about Margaret Thatcher is from kids who probably don't even remember her time in office.

As an american who mostly became aware of politics under Tony Blair, I get the feeling it's this. Much of todays youth could barely tell you about Clintons presidency, much less George HW, and you have the youth/mid-aged members of Britain crying about how amazingly horrific she actually was.

 

She was removed from office in 1990... How many people can actually claim to have been aware of wtf was going on back then? I can't.

 

As to the Three Day Week? According to Wiki (the best of sources I know) basically it was a set of 3 months where any commercial company could only get 3 days worth of electricity because the Coal Miners were refusing to work.

 

After reading a bit of Wiki, I feel like the problems she had to deal with were more to do with the fact that the nation still had a Royal Family and less that they were "moving into the 21st century!"

[Morgoth]

I didn't know she was even still alive...

 

Oh well. She and Reagon sure had some fun when those Russkies were still a vital threat.

[Agiel]

As someone slightly left of center yet still pro-military, I couldn't help but shake my head when people in America were celebrating in the streets and in front of the White House over the death of Bin Laden. I agree that his killing was needed to send a message to his ilk that "kill our civilians and we *will* find you," but I viewed the deed as more like putting down a rabid dog than something to break out the champagne over (as I also felt over the death of Gaddafi, who I feel should have been brought before the Hague than suffer at the hands of a lynch mob).

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that even if you feel that strongly about something or someone, at least have some tact.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Agiel

[Drowsy Emperor]

Good riddance.

[HoonDing]

Maggie's having a fun barbecue with Augusto and Ronnie at the moment.

[JadedWolf]

While I know there is a lot of controversy over her time in office, she was one of the first prominent female leaders of the time and her influence on future generations of women should be acknowledged. 

 

It is quite well known that she felt little compulsion to fight for women's rights. While I agree that she has become a role model, it's not because she had any desire to be one (not one for women, anyway). Here's a piece from a BBC article:

 

"And Patricia Hewitt, a minister Tony Blair's Cabinet, told the BBC News website: "Margaret Thatcher broke through the glass ceiling in politics. But it is a tragedy that, having become the UK's first women prime minister, she did so much to undermine the position of women in society. "

 

"Margaret Thatcher damaged women's place in the workplace, undermined families and communities, and did nothing for women in public life. It was a wasted opportunity on a gargantuan scale."

 

But the mere fact that Mrs Thatcher was a woman and reached the peak of political power had an impact.

 

Lady Williams says: "Her own achievement of course changed the whole attitude of people to what women could achieve but it was very much a personal achievement...

"She didn't see herself as a leader of the women's movement but little girls begin to think they could be prime minister."

[Nepenthe]

Ie. she succeeded on her own terms, not because of positive discrimination etc.

[Nonek]

The fact that she became Prime Minister in a country that is still ruled by the Old Etonian boys network is something in and of itself, never mind that she was a greengrocers daughter from Grantham, one cannot say that the woman lacked ambition, strength of will or direction. I'd prefer her rule than the current generation of spineless, non confrontational, corrupt fops that we are currently saddled with. 

[Walsingham]

Hugely amused by knots of teenagers waffling on about how bad she was. Not here, just in pubs all over the place.

[Meshugger]

The fact that she became Prime Minister in a country that is still ruled by the Old Etonian boys network is something in and of itself, never mind that she was a greengrocers daughter from Grantham, one cannot say that the woman lacked ambition, strength of will or direction. I'd prefer her rule than the current generation of spineless, non confrontational, corrupt fops that we are currently saddled with. 

 

Exactly.

[Drowsy Emperor]

The woman was an ideological disaster. She and Reagan moved the entire political spectrum so far to the right that there are no real leftist parties around. Today's "left" is their brand of neo liberalism with a sprinkling of social policy for flavor.

 

The entire goal of those two was to legalize the theft of state assets and ensure supremacy of big business over politics. Through deregulation and privatization they permanently transferred power and influence from the semi-transparent political sphere to completely opaque business circles, unaccountable to no one. Thereby killing the very idea of democracy in favor of a straight up plutocracy. 

 

There is no circle of hell deep enough for the two of them. 

[Enoch]

As an American who was born in the year she took office as the PM, I don't have the most immediate of impressions of her. 

 

But it is interesting the degree to which she became a polarizing symbol even on this side of the Atlantic.  Sure, the Rightward end of the American political spectrum wrap her up in their Reagan hagiography.  There also a certain amount of envy at what she was able to accomplish in the Parliamentary system, in absence of American checks and balances (not to mention the fact that, thanks to the Labor-SocDem split, she was able to implement her agenda without even winning majorities at the polls).  But I think style counts a lot here.  There are many admirers of her often-openly-contempuous attitude towards her political enemies.  Which, frankly, is regrettable. 

 

And that last point is probably the main reason why the Left in America has much reason to dislike her as intently as it seems to.  I mean, her signature economic reforms addressed a system that was beyond the pale for all but the most doctrinaire American leftists-- almost nobody in U.S. politics would defend policies like 83% marginal taxation at the top end and effective state ownership of entire major industries like steel, energy, and air travel.

 

So I suppose I admire her legacy of bringing a frankly necessary rightward correction to British economic policy, but don't particularly care for her legacy of being kind of a **** about it. 

Edited April 9, 2013 by Enoch

[BruceVC]

I should have posted something earlier but I was focused on my post about sexism.

 

IMO she was an iconic stateswomen whose leadership style was necessary at the time to break the power of the Trade Unions and  lift the UK out of the economic quagmire it found itself in during the 1980's. Its debatable what role she played in ending the Cold War but she was instrumental in reducing the power of the USSR along with other world leaders. She isn't very popular in certain political circles in South Africa as its felt she helped perpetuate Apartheid. I don't agree with that as her primary enemy during her reign was Communism, which I agree with, and since the ANC received  funding  by the Communists the ending of Apartheid wasn't a priority for her. 

 

Anyway I know she also destroyed certain economies in the UK so I can understand some of the animosity towards her, but you won't see that from me as I believe she did more good than bad.

 

Iron Lady RIP

Edited April 9, 2013 by BruceVC

[Rostere]

I admire her for being stubborn enough to pursue the Falklands war. On the other hand I'm rather critical of her political legacy. I'm sure Britain was in dire need of shaping up during her early years, something which she handled to excess.

 

In many ways I think her death mirrors the death of Hugo Chavez. They were both controversial, extreme politicians who succeded with a lot of what they set out to do but polarized their countries, with un unfortunate passionate love for dictatorships of their preferred colours. Here's a Chilean article about the death of Thatcher.

 

Considering the different situations they were faced with during their time in power, I think they will both be remembered positively inside their respective countries. However I don't approve of either as individuals, as they were so keen to give their support to dictators and the killing of people with opposing political opinions, even if it's not inside their own countries.

 

I think it's important for people who approve of Thatcher's political accomplishments to also take distance from her as a person because of these facts. In another situation, she would without a shadow of a doubt have been cheering along Hitler and Mussolini in the thirties. You must never idolize people, in case you wil get their unsavoury sides in the baggage as well.

[babaganoosh13]

My problems with 80s conservatism is that economically they took it too far, too fast and got those huge deficits as a result. Reagan/HW Bush pulled back on them a bit. Mulroney introduced the GST. Thatcher introduced the Poll Tax. (Yes I'm spinning and simplifying a bit.) It moved a lot of the tax burden on to the lower and middle classes. Plus, I think in the long run we play more when we privatize essential services and products that are essential to our economy. Competition is fine, helps lower prices and makes companies work harder and smarter for your dollar, but when those same companies are allowed to keep merging into bigger companies, there is less competition and more collusion.

 

Do you have any idea how many years it's been since I've been on a political forum? You go away for a while, and realize that Bill Maher bubble is so true (for all political groups.) What it looks like in there after a bit of a vacation can be kinda scary.

[Monte Carlo]

Bollocks.

 

 

In another situation, she would without a shadow of a doubt have been cheering along Hitler and Mussolini in the thirties

 

Thatcher was a passionate believer in liberty. She despised dictatorships of any stripe. She helped negotiate the end of the Cold War and brought down a tyranny in Argentina.

 

That she had flaws is a matter of record, but your assertion there is epic in it's inacuraccy and offensive to the woman's reputation. Please, as this is the internet, provide some evidence for Thatcher's alleged support for totalitarianism.

[Zoraptor]

Augusto Pinochet.

PW Botha.

Saddam Hussein.

What do I win?

 

(And I don't even agree that Thatcher would have supported Hitler/ Musso. Churchill, who was outright fascist in many respects like gassing Iraqi's, white man's burden, exploitation etc was stridently anti-fascist after all and did not believe in banding together with Uncle A to fight Uncle J. But Thatcher was an absolutely typical western hypocrite 'democrat', totalitarianism was AOK, fine, brilliant even, so long as it was her friends doing the murder, torture and suppression rather than her enemies.)