Multiclassing and Prestige classes.

[IchigoRXC]

I love multi-classing, second edition style anyway. I am not fond of the restrictions but I much prefer a multi-classed fighter/druid compared to a 4 classed mess in NWN2.

 

However, even with my love of multi-classing what is the point if the bonuses can be achieved another way?

 

If you can wear heavy armour and swing a sword as a Mage, why go fighter/mage?

If you can have a much greater prowess in battle and think less about spells as a cleric, just keep a few handy, why bother with a fighter/cleric.

You could tweak a rogue for combat to create a duellist like class, no need for fighter/rogue.

 

Now, if there are restrictions such as only rogues can stealth, then maybe there is a place for rogue/mages or rogue/clerics, but if not and the rogues are just best at it, then the multi-classes are not needed.

 

Monk with high stealth? Karate chops from the shadows? Yes please. Don't want to have to multi-class to rogue to achieve it though, have a silent step feat, or a slower progression in stealth than rogues.

 

With how diverse they seem to want to make the classes, I feel that simple multi-classing is not needed, and 3rd edition multi-classing would be even more redundant. However, I still feel maybe certain prestiges could work if you follow a certain line within your class, such as:

 

Battle Mage, when you are a heavy armour wearing, weapon swinging bad ass who just can't get enough of being in battle. Proficiency with a certain weapon, heavy armour and having certain feats could unlock this prestige. Maybe a strength restriction.

 

ArchMage when you study solely on knowledge and spells, owning a certain number of books and reducing the cool down on book switching (or more memorised spells). Have it based on number of spells learnt, owning X books of spells and having certain feats. Int/wis restriction.

 

Duelist, A lightly armoured fighter who's speed and technical skills are paramount. Light armour and a single handed blade proficiency, with the addition of some feats and a dexterity (or equivalent) restriction.

 

 

Though I would be happy if you could just create characters like that and have no need for a name for it and instead follow Kaine Parker's description of group 3, where prestige just adds something completely different to your class. Hiding in plain sight as a mage would be awesome. Randomly transforming into a bear to maul someone. Having the ability to breath fire. Random special abilities granted through special means, perhaps unlocking previous lives knowledge within your soul.

[Ieo]

If you are going to have classes, then there should be multiclassing, because the idea that once you chose a career you can learn nothing outside of that career is utterly stupid and unrealistic. Real humans can pick up a huge variety of skills in often surprising combinations. Dividing your attention makes you less well trained in any particular skill, but that is a choice for the individual to make. A mage being physically unable to practice fencing due to game designer fiat is a massive suspension of disbelief breaker.

 

I'm going to guess that you didn't read Update 15 at all. Go back to the first page and reread the quote of interest again.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Ieo

[PsychoBlonde]

 

And for the love of god, no multi- or prestige classes. Classes are an old-fashioned concept, but I can live with that. Just give me enough choices via traits or feats to tweak them. OTOH wild and ridiculous multi-classing just takes the entire point out of a rigid class system. It's DnD's policy of "abortions for one group, American flags for the other" that led to this mess.

 

I actually really like the way multi-classing works in Dungeons and Dragons Online, but that game is tied to a lot of aspects of D&D. (I also think that the way DDO handles prestige options is about a billion times better than the way it works in tabletop.) I think if you design your system well, multi-classing will be both unnecessary and nonfunctional.

[CrackedMandible]

If you are going to have classes, then there should be multiclassing, because the idea that once you chose a career you can learn nothing outside of that career is utterly stupid and unrealistic. Real humans can pick up a huge variety of skills in often surprising combinations. Dividing your attention makes you less well trained in any particular skill, but that is a choice for the individual to make. A mage being physically unable to practice fencing due to game designer fiat is a massive suspension of disbelief breaker.

 

But, per the devs, the design already allows for builds outside the stereotypical Mage/Fighter/Thief. There are a nice variety of classes already, and I'd like the dev team to focus on balancing gameplay for the defined classes without having to worry about watering down classes because of an overpowered multiclass. I'm strongly in favor of the stated design decision to let people play the type of character they want, while staying in we'll defined class designations. I believe there is an update that addresses this and solves issue your concern of having "realistic" professions in this game of elves and magic.

Edited November 12, 2012 by CrackedMandible

[Jarmo]

1. Addition: These add unique abilities for several classes. Dragon Disciple, Shadow Dancer, and Bear Warrior call this group home.
   

The last group is the kind of prestige class I would like to see in PE.

 

Shadowdancer is actually what I mostly had in mind as overpowered feat.

It'd have been much better if every thief could "hide in plain sight", only less well or maybe with pooling multiple feats together.

The other shadow-abilities as well, rather see them as a developement tree inside thief class than chopped into a prestige one.

 

Maybe a PE Rogue(since they have soul powers) could have a shadow power tree, but in 3.x, the Rogue did not have any supernatural abilities so Shadow Dancer powers would have seemed strange. We won't really be able to argue about what a PE Rogue should be able to do until we find out what they can actually do.

 

3.x rogues had shadow powers if they picked the prestige class, just like that. First you don't have supernatural abilities and then *click* you have a bunch.

I'd much rather there was a sneak tree, or in D&D terms feats with prerequisite feats, where you get progressively better at hiding, until reaching actual invisibility (at epic levels).

Or learn to lay traps like a master, or wicked sword skills, climb smooth walls, become a poisoner, whatever.

Or be a "regular rogue" with a bit of this and a bit of that.

[Jorian Drake]

I love multiclassing, I also love gestalt characters/games, if implemented right

 

Honestly though, mostly I really don't want to see dual wielding and "Persuasion" skill be restricted to the "Rogue" class as it was in Dragon Age 2, and I want to be able to make a non-assassin/rogue stealthy char or a non-thief lockpicker and pickpocket, thankfully the option to have an armored "Mage Knight" is basically confirmed by now (some "realistic" examples could be a sneaky -european styled- monk, a knight who grew up on streets and thus gained skills uncommon for one in a knightly order, or a noble who due to heritage had to train in warfare and swordmanship while also having inborn magical talent)

 

As mentioned in an other thread though, I would prefer the concept of classes being thrown out to begin with, similar to how it is handled in either Vampire:TM or 7th Sea, maybe even Rift

Edited November 12, 2012 by Jorian Drake

[nerevar]

I like multiclassing and want to see it game but not like nwn 2 style, i prefer bg 2 which is 2 d&d multiclassing. So the playing character will be more balanced, not just a online gaming overpowered or messed up character who knows fighting, magic, picking locks and hiding in shadows etc.

 

Also i dont think that prestige classes are necessary, instead there can be sub classes and proficiencies to choose while multiclassing.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

3.x rogues had shadow powers if they picked the prestige class, just like that. First you don't have supernatural abilities and then *click* you have a bunch.

I'd much rather there was a sneak tree, or in D&D terms feats with prerequisite feats, where you get progressively better at hiding, until reaching actual invisibility (at epic levels).

Or learn to lay traps like a master, or wicked sword skills, climb smooth walls, become a poisoner, whatever.

Or be a "regular rogue" with a bit of this and a bit of that.

 

You still have to train as a Shadow dancer though, which is not a Rogue. Not to mention that Shadow Dancer was also not Rogue exclusive, so Rangers, Monks, bards, etc. were also competent candidates.

 

I do think the rest of the post could apply to PE though, assuming soul powers work how they do in the description on the wiki.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

At the time of posting(69 votes) it seems that the majority of us who want multiclassing would prefer a "Mix and Match" system over a Gestalt system. Why do you prefer whichever system you prefer?

 

I personally like a "Mix and match" system because it allows more freedom and player pacing of the character's progression.

[Jarmo]

2.x Dual classing was intensely stupid what with the lockdown period where the character totally forgets everything and then *ping* remembers everything again.

Crazy overpowered as well, basically getting a couple of levels of the first class "for free" as far as total XP goes.

 

Multiclassing was a throwback to 1.x demi-human race as class system. I basically liked it, but it was all broken as well.

Totally overpowered in the early game 10th level fighter vs 9th level fighter/mage and totally underpowered in late game 40th level wizard vs 20th level fighter/mage.

 

3.x system is the best I've come across as yet, with freedom to build your own thing, but not without it's faults.

Basically it works, but why is 1st level of thief 1500XP for one character and 45 000XP for a higher level character?

Obviously if the levels were of fixed XP, there'd be no reason for high level character to just grab a bunch of extra proficiencys for practically no cost.

 

Can't say what kind of multiclass system would work out the best,

but I sort of feel a classless system with skill trees would be the best thing overall.

[Raithe]

3e and 3.5e multiclassing and prestige classes could work when you had a DM there to slap down players pushing minmaxing styles. When there were actual reasons for characters to dabble in other classes and part of the roleplaying of picking up new skills in x arena, or specialising in y aspect it can work quite well. Because it takes into consideration that you have a group of players and someone gamesmastering it who can apply the fuzzy logic to the rules system.

 

When that translates into a purely crpg aspect, you lose the fuzzy logic and get just the strict by the rules which can let the minmaxing go wild with no real controlling hand to counter it within reason.

[HansKrSG]

I am not sure I like that people equal so many qustions on game mechanics to DnD (2nd or 3rd ed.). PE is not D20-based. That said, I do understand that the question can be valid outside a d20 game, but it really seems like it has been asked thinking about it.

[Karkarov]

Prestige classes, sure sounds good. Done right they serve a good purpose not only for powering up the player but also tying in lore and maybe even different organizations of the world itself and getting the player more involved in it.

 

Multi-Classing.... no. It was a dumb thing that only came into being in D&D to make up for a rule no one ever followed to begin with. That dumb rule being that non humans had level caps and only humans could actually reach level 20 in any one class. That way it gave people a reason to play high level Elves for example because even though they were only level 12 fighter they could also be a level 8 mage as opposed to saying "well you got to 12 in fighter, your character can't level up anymore."

[Raithe]

Part of it is also how many people get inspired by characters from fiction. How many times do you find the roguish swashbuckler who happens to know a couple of spells? Or the scholar-mage who can pick up a sword without slicing off his own fingers?.. Or the renowned fighter who left scarred from war retires to a monastary and becomes a monk... The kid who grew up on the streets as a thief, but then becomes some famous warrior adventurer..

 

While the main idea of classes are based around specific archetypes... A lot of fictional characters have a certain blending of abilities that it's impossible to pull off without some element of multiclassing. So if you get inspired by a few good books and think "yeah, I want to create a character with elements from that guy and that guy"...

 

That can be balanced out differently in point-based game systems or such, but when you know a game is class-based, the question of multiclassing always has to come up.

[Frisk]

I consider the whole concept of multi-classing and prestige classes to be nothing more than an indication of what is fundamentally wrong with character generation on D&D-like games - the plain classes are too limited, so this is an attempt to fix the problem.

 

Personally I think the whole system is wrong. I prefer role-playing games which have no classes as such, but a "point-buy" system of some sort, so you can evolve your character in any direction you like, and gain any skills you want - however, that may be too complicated to implement properly in a computer game.

[.Leif.]

I care more about prestige classes than I do multi-classes. Having both included would be great.

 

What intrigues me the most is the idea of sub-classes. Like choosing to be a totemic druid, or a musketeer fighter, a swashbuckler rogue or a wild mage. Does anyone else want the ability to chose a class variant at character generation?

[Jarmo]

What intrigues me the most is the idea of sub-classes. Like choosing to be a totemic druid, or a musketeer fighter, a swashbuckler rogue or a wild mage. Does anyone else want the ability to chose a class variant at character generation?

 

Anyone - certainly, me - nah.

But I'd like if when you're a fighter and pool skills on muskets, your class reads "musketeer", or a "swashbuckler" if your rogue invests in 1-h sword skills..

[Karkarov]

Part of it is also how many people get inspired by characters from fiction. How many times do you find the roguish swashbuckler who happens to know a couple of spells? Or the scholar-mage who can pick up a sword without slicing off his own fingers?.. Or the renowned fighter who left scarred from war retires to a monastary and becomes a monk... The kid who grew up on the streets as a thief, but then becomes some famous warrior adventurer..

 

The problem there is the character in fiction almost always has abilities that don't exist in game or don't work by the rules. Drizzt was a great example, in the novels you would think he was the most bad ass dude of all time. In actual game, he just a high level ranger. Also characters in literature also benefit from having stories about them, in many cases being what is called a Mary Sue. In PE it is not going to be all about your MC and you won't be a Mary Sue.

 

That said, everyone in PE has access to power over their "soul". So who is to say your Rogue won't have some spell like abilities? It is perfectly possible they will. It is already confirmed Mages can wear full plate and be on the front line, if they will let them wear full plate I don't see them saying they can't use a long sword. The renowned fighter is simply a guy who swore off his part life to become a monk, you make him level one and make him really old, done. Since he swore off his old life all those skills don't matter because he wont use them, you probably lost some hp, but oh well. Lastly the kid who grew up as a thief to become a mighty adventuring fighter and champion of good? Who said being a thief requires you to be a rogue? You don't need any of Rogue skills to case a store, wait for the place to close, then get in by breaking a window. Not as "smooth", but it worked and you are definitely a thief.

 

I consider the whole concept of multi-classing and prestige classes to be nothing more than an indication of what is fundamentally wrong with character generation on D&D-like games - the plain classes are too limited, so this is an attempt to fix the problem.

 

Personally I think the whole system is wrong. I prefer role-playing games which have no classes as such, but a "point-buy" system of some sort, so you can evolve your character in any direction you like, and gain any skills you want - however, that may be too complicated to implement properly in a computer game.

Well said. This is another discussion that is assuming this game will make all the same mistakes 2nd ed D&D does with it's character design. There is just no reason to expect that. I am sure there will be issues, but they are unlikely to be the exact same issues.

 

As for the kind of system you are talking about though... Check out an MMO called The Secret World. Almost no media or fanfare around it at all simply because it is made by Funcom but it does more to shake up standard MMO design in the first 30 minutes than any other MMO on the market. To give you an idea, there are no classes, you actually have to move in combat sometimes, some quests actually require you to think making you do everything from break simple codes, translate morse, research 16th century painters, some of them even have you visiting real webpages set up to represent in game companies to search employee databases. I wish they have gone for the full monty and completely eliminated the tank/healer/dps paradigm but considering any character can be any of those roles and you can switch your skills literally at any time I think it is good enough for now.

[JFSOCC]

I consider the whole concept of multi-classing and prestige classes to be nothing more than an indication of what is fundamentally wrong with character generation on D&D-like games - the plain classes are too limited, so this is an attempt to fix the problem.

 

Personally I think the whole system is wrong. I prefer role-playing games which have no classes as such, but a "point-buy" system of some sort, so you can evolve your character in any direction you like, and gain any skills you want - however, that may be too complicated to implement properly in a computer game.

there is that, I also have 4 third party rulebooks with alternative or prestige classes accentuating your point. You have to makea balance between

1. not overpowered

2. distinct

3. plays like the player wants to play it (role playing)

4. rewards the player based on how he chooses to play.

 

I kind of liked morrowind in that respect, you could choose how you played by simply playing that way, but, I think this also allowed some very powerful combinations which might have been OP. So perhaps it IS a good idea that some choices would eliminate other choices.

[Ravenfeeder]

I am not a fan of multi- or prestige classes. I particularly hate if you have to plan your build aheaf of time. People learn stiff organically as they go, few plan each individual step to their goal.

 

If you are going to have classes then the idea behind Rolemaster classing was best. Classes are an aptitude. Any class can advance in any skill, it is judt easier for some than others. So fighters learned combat skills easily and magical skills with great difficulty. There were enough different classes to give any player the sort of character they preferred, without any silly stuff.

[Continuum]

Multiclassing is a D&D relic that evolved to deal with the rigidly defined classes. D&D required a certain level of simplification because a human had to track all the math and roll the dice.

 

A modern CRPG should simply use a more open class structure if they want players to have the option to have thieves that cast spells or mages in armor or whatnot. Multi-class is basically just a cop-out to get around a class system that people aren't happy using.

 

Prestige class can work when tied to progress. All fighters could start generalist and that at level 10 or what not prestige towards more of an armored knight or a mobile archer, for example. Or they could just use a more open class/skill system with well-balance tradeoffs.

[Ninjamestari]

This thread represents perfectly the classic kind of backwards thinking people suffer from; everyone is arguing and discussing about which methods we should use when they haven't even agreed on the general direction yet.

 

In general I think that special "prestige class" type abilities should be learned in the game and not through additional classes that anyone can pick. They should represent achievements in the game world , not just a choice made during a levelup.

[Osvir]

Instead of Multi-Classing, but could there be a chance that I could learn Weapon Skills from a Weapon from another Class' preferred weapon school?

 

http://forums.obsidi...e-wall-of-text/

 

In essence you become a Fighter/Wizard when you wield that Grimoire on the off-hand, because you can throw spells. Just that it's super weak for the Fighter (it could be a way to use some Sword magic for your Fighter).

Edited November 16, 2012 by Osvir

[Angry Chief]

I hate D&D system it's just bad. I prefer warhammer(much more deadly and realistic). Regardless I'm fine with D&D class system without multiclassing. But hey that's just me.

[Somna]

I'm a fan of the Archetype system Pathfinder threw in, where you can adjust the default class template with a different flavored set of abilities. Here's the fighter ones for example. They also have one for Races and a pseudo-point buy of sorts for racial features, but I hear designing one from scratch is a little broken, although I don't know specifically why. It changes the Prestige Classes/Multi-class thought from a "must have" to a much more optional situation.