Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

A New System; The Commoner and the Wall of Text

solutions growth magic tools weapons experience level character class multi-class

  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Brainstorm = Cipher ability

Hi :)

I've had some thoughts on a system lately and it's starting to form more and more. The only issues with it (until I get feedback from lovely you :)) is the Non-Lethal path (which wouldn't get as much combat skill or armor, not in the same way). First of all I've got thoughts on an Experience gain for more than just the Character and/or Out of Combat (coming soon in another issue of the WoT). Here goes:

Growth

Weapon Experience Sword Level 1 67/500 to Level Up (Caps at Level 5)
So enemies, regular enemies, give experience, but only to the weapon you are wielding when taking down enemies. When you gain a level in the Weapon you could gain an "Ability" or choose between 2 (X-COM style). Having a weapon in your Off-Hand levels both that Weapon and your Off-Hand. In essence this is what the Baldur's Gate "experience" really is. Gain experience when you've taken down an enemy, not by slashing.

Off-Hand Experience Off-Hand levels in a way which gives you a better Shield-Arm, or a better Dual-Wielding experience. Magic Tools do not grow in Experience in the same way. Off-Hand can be split up into 3 4 5 6 Sections (you know what? Let's just say "Undecided"). Works just like Weapon Experience in that you "Gain Experience in that you are Wearing". If you choose to have 2 Swords you'll get Dual-Wielding Experience, having a Two-Handed Weapon gives you Two-Handed Experience. You can't get Experience for 2-Handed when you've got a Sword & Board etc. etc. if you get Level 3 with a Sword and Equip a Sword on an Off-Hand would give the Sword Experience on the Off-Hand a Penalty (based on Dual-Wielding). If Dual-Wielding is Level 3 and the Sword is Level 3, no penalties, but if Dual-Wielding is Level 2 and Sword is Level 3, the off-hand Sword becomes Level 2. Simple? Magic Wielding works in the same way differently and covered throughout the post.

- One-Handed Experience (One weapon, 1 Sword)
- Sword & Board Experience (In Essence Sword & Shield)
- Two-Handed Experience (Single Two-Handed Sword, Staff is a Hybrid)
- Dual-Wielding Experience (Two Weapons, Sword/Sword)
- Magic Wielding Experience (Off-Hand Grimoire/Magic Tool, Staff is a Hybrid)
- Unarmed Experience (Fighting with knuckles, a Hybrid with a Grimoire)

Spell Experience
Is different, and based on your Character Level and resources (finding scrolls/buying scrolls at a merchant/Wizard) as well. A Magic Missile would shoot 2 Missiles at Character Level 3. But! Magic Wielding Experience makes Spells stronger and leveling up Magic Wielding could give you 2 abilities to choose from (X-COM style) to determine Effects of the Spell (Fire Magic Missiles? One Large Magic Missile that is charged longer?).

Armor Experience
The Armor is purely resource based like Spells. But more like a Skill Tree in your Inventory/Equipment screen. You slay a Bandit, you grab some resources to be able to Upgrade your own armor in your inventory (No "Light Armor, Medium Armor or Heavy Armor Skill" <- Based on Character Level). Some Armor Upgrades must be done by a Craftsman in town, whom you must pay gold to Upgrade your Gear. Armor has no Levels entirely, but that [Tier] Armor would have 3 slots that you can upgrade in 2 different ways each (X-COM style). Unlocking more Armor (Higher Tiers) requires Character Level Growth. Finally, it's not like you are going to be able to strap on that guys armor that you just cleaved in half.

Character Level
This is purely dependent on Questing, "Experience is only gained at the end of a Journey when you Understand it". This level determines the Armor you can wear (Tier 1, 2... 4) Weapons you use (Tier 1, 2... 4) Spells you can cast (Level 1, 2... 9). General Strength Growth. More Armor slots in your Inventory (Helmet, Gloves) a linear simplified License System (FF12).

Progression/Summary
You have to take down enemies to get resources, taking down enemies makes you better at wielding your weapon and looting enemies gives you better equipment. To be able to wear more equipment, or better equipment, you have to do Quests to grow in Level. As a Level 1 character you are limited to the gear you are Limited to basically. This system is very combat centric, like every system out there really.

Non-Lethal Approach (Feedback and thoughts needed!)
Work in progress. This is difficult because from my perspective it is a playstyle, the stealth approach. I would play with 3 party members, max 4, in a stealth approach. Mostly light armor wearing characters, more than that would feel more and more as an "attention" gatherer (Really, 6 party members in a City and specially in a dungeon would gather more attention). Stealth is a difficult matter regardless in a Party-Based game like P:E, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment. It is doable of course, but designing an open world with it in consideration I believe is very difficult, it's like building one game inside another games.

Magic & Tools

Next on the list is Magic and Tools of Magic. How do you use Magic and what are the tools for it? Who can use it?

The Grimoire of Dark Arts
All Magic, Arcane, Blood, Elemental, Necromancy and so on. Needed for the most powerful ritualistic Magic.

These examples below portray the "Main Weapon" Strength, the Grimoire is really the Power tool and the Spells within it. Grimoire+Hand would throw spells from the Grimoire real fast, but it would also be weaker than throwing spells with a Wand. Having a Sword in your Main Hand would allow you to cast spells with the sword at a long range but it would really be weak. You could send your Sword (Force Throw) at enemies, enchant the Sword with powerful Magic and so on.

* Hand & Grimoire: Arcane, Fastest & Weakest.
* Wand & Grimoire: Arcane, Fast & Weak.
* Dagger/Sword & Grimoire: Blood Magic. Weak Arcane Magic.

The Crystal of the Mind
Mind-Magic/Psionic, a Cipher's tool. Usable by a Wizard too.

Holy Scripture and the False Word/Song
Paladin, Chanter and Priest. Using a Grimoire on a Paladin/Chanter/Priest makes them "Fallen" or "Corrupted" in the Eyes of their Faith.

Poems, Songs, Chants, Partiture
The Chanter's tool for singing, a Rogue, Monk and a Priest can use it well too.

Staff
* The Druid's Tool of choice. Strong Elemental Magic, if Staff's aren't necessarily 2-Handed (putting a sword in an off-hand) the Magic would be weaker but the Wizard/Druid could fight close range better. A Grimoire and a Staff would cast slow strong Magic. Only having a Staff on a Wizard would let him cast the strongest Low-Tier to Mid-Tier as well as some limited High-Tier Magic. Mon, Druid, Wizard and Chanter preference.

* A Monk could use the Staff to channel Elemental Magic for close range (Hitting the Earth with the Staff sends an avalanche or a rock slide towards the enemy). This is really interesting (IMO) for a Monk because the Monk doesn't necessarily "strike" the enemy but asks for the aid of the Soul of the Land. A horizontal wavering with the Staff could send a Wind Slash at enemies.

* The Wizard would use the Staff as a power tool, whilst the Druid uses it as a Naturalist. Using the Nature in combination with their Faith, giving and taking. A Wizard would only take from the land when using Elemental Magic, without giving anything back (Which could give other consequences). A Druid could very much dislike a Wizard holding a Staff.

* Chanters use the Staff to vibrate their voices, as if tuning, enhancing their voices and/or in a way to shatter bones and nerves with a powerful verse of sound, vibration and frequency. Metal Staff's purely.

With this list went through, could Items determine the Class?

Multi-Classing

I've got a Fighter, I go through the first prologue area (take down some enemies along the way) I get slightly better with a Sword & Board (not even close to leveling it up, 1/5th of the first level perhaps), got some better gear from the resources I gathered. I get to town, finish the first initial Quest and I gain 1 Character Level (Now Level 2). I remember Obsidian saying something about "Quick fast early levels". I'm in the first town and I've got some gold so I can upgrade my armor at the Craftsman, maybe there is 1 Companion or 2 in this town that I can recruit as well.

As the Equipment Screen is like a "Skill-Tree" I choose to go to the Wizard and upgrade my Off-Hand to a Grimoire instead, so now my Fighter is in essence a Fighter/Wizard. I can keep a Shield in the inventory and switch around for situations between Grimoire and Shield. Likewise, if I make a Wizard and I pick up the Sword I suddenly have a Wizard/Fighter. Using the Grimoire in battle and taking down enemies would not give me Sword & Board experience (as it isn't equipped) but instead experience in Magic Wielding.

With Items and Equipment being tied to Classes, you could make a Chanter a Chanter/Druid, or a Druid a Druid/Barbarian and so on and so forth. Being able to upgrade the armor accordingly to your "Build". In Baldur's Gate there is a limited amount of experience that you can get, so choosing a Build early is important for the Growth of your character (Unlike TES, where Experience is Abundant and you could become a Master at Everything).

Have a great wonderful day :)

And of course... thoughts?

Edited by Osvir, 15 November 2012 - 10:29 AM.


#2
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Character Level
This is purely dependent on Questing, "Experience is only gained at the end of a Journey when you Understand it". This level determines the Armor you can wear (Tier 1, 2... 4) Weapons you use (Tier 1, 2... 4) Spells you can cast (Level 1, 2... 9). General Strength Growth. More Armor slots in your Inventory (Helmet, Gloves) a linear simplified License System (FF12).


It's not like you would start right off the bat with Full Plate Mail (like Dragon Age 2, the False Story Introduction).


Progression/Summary
You have to take down enemies to get resources, taking down enemies makes you better at wielding your weapon and looting enemies gives you better equipment. To be able to wear more equipment, or better equipment, you have to do Quests to grow in Level. As a Level 1 character you are limited to the gear you are Limited to basically. This system is very combat centric, like every system out there really.



A non-lethal approach, having lesser party members, would give you more experience and make you level faster. Relying more on Pickpocket skills, which levels up faster (because you are fewer members). Basically the non-lethal approach would (if played with few characters a.k.a play style) make your characters grow in various skills faster but due to only being 3 members Combat becomes more difficult. The price to pay. The Non-Lethal small task force/group/unit/party would thrive on general burglary and upgrade their gear at the Blacksmith mostly and pay their way forward (Having a Business as a Rogue is more important than for the Action based progression). If 1 Rogue in your party does Pickpocket, the rest of the Rogues in your party gains experience in it as well (lesser than the "Pickpocketer", if my main 1 Rogue gains 53 experience in Pickpocket Skill, the other two Rogues gain 19 Experience each in it. If I have 1 Main Rogue, 1 Wizard and 1 Ranger the Wizard might get 11 Experience and the Ranger 17 Experience). The more characters you have the lower the experience is (1 Rogue in a 6 man Party would get less experience for Pickpocket than 1 Rogue in a 3 man party). In a 6 man Party the Main Rogue might get 16 Experience, whilst the rest (depending on their class) gains 4-9 Experience.

In Towns
Being able to send your party on Tasks, you could send the 2 Rogues in your party out for Burglary (and perhaps even have to save them from jail later) whilst your main character runs about and buys Equipment, Talks to NPC's and so on. A smaller group would lessen the chance to get sent into jail, as the non-lethal approach thrives on a small group as well as party members being better at "charming" themselves out of situations with gold or [Speech]. Likewise, a smaller group allows for more of a faster "Hit & Run" in towns. A larger group requiring more organization, management and planning. Perhaps you can send one of your characters to handle Business?

[Speech] & Out of Combat
Also grows in experience like the Pickpocket skill, it goes out to your party members as well (in a lesser amount). This can be seen as the characters teaching each other (the Out of Combat skills) and telling/showing/explaining/teaching to the rest of the team. All Out of Combat skills could be handing out experience in this way, where everyone gains from it but by a lesser reward and dependent on their Class.

Jail
[Speech] and gold on your party members sent on tasks can both lessens the chance to get caught and heightens the chances of successful looting (better looting cities). If getting caught, a "Rogue"/Companion with high enough [Speech] and enough gold on him/her can automatically talk him/herself out of a situation (and loose some gold as if paying his/her way out of the bad situation). When a character is sent to jail (Or "Wanted") you will have to save him/her from Jail or wait til "Time has been Served".

Armor Experience
The Armor is purely resource based like Spells. But more like a Skill Tree in your Inventory/Equipment screen. You slay a Bandit, you grab some resources to be able to Upgrade your own armor in your inventory (No "Light Armor, Medium Armor or Heavy Armor Skill" <- Based on Character Level). Some Armor Upgrades must be done by a Craftsman in town, whom you must pay gold to Upgrade your Gear. Armor has no Levels entirely, but that [Tier] Armor would have 3 slots that you can upgrade in 2 different ways each (X-COM style). Unlocking more Armor (Higher Tiers) requires Character Level Growth. Finally, it's not like you are going to be able to strap on that guys armor that you just cleaved in half.



Like mining a Mineral with an SCV, with an Engineering Bay in your backpack (StarCraft II Technological Improvements/Upgrades). The Armor Experience idea is inspired by combining these elements: Baldur's Gate and RPG Equipment screen, the Armory and Lab in Starcraft II and Deus Ex: Human Revolution, X-COM leveling up and equipment handling, various crafting systems in various games.

]Character Level[/u]
This is purely dependent on Questing, "Experience is only gained at the end of a Journey when you Understand it". This level determines the Armor you can wear (Tier 1, 2... 4) Weapons you use (Tier 1, 2... 4) Spells you can cast (Level 1, 2... 9). General Strength Growth. More Armor slots in your Inventory (Helmet, Gloves) a linear simplified License System (FF12).


"Only at the end of the Journey do you understand the Journey"

EDIT: I am inspired and influenced by many ideas from these forums but I can't pin-point them entirely. Non-Lethal definitely, having a Business and Craftsmen. There's probably way more but can't pin-point it. You helped me build this, that's all I wanted to say :)

Edited by Osvir, 15 November 2012 - 11:38 AM.


#3
JFSOCC

JFSOCC

    Mentor & Student of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2255 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
That's a lot to digest, give me a while.
  • Osvir likes this

#4
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

The Grimoire of Dark Arts
All Magic, Arcane, Blood, Elemental, Necromancy and so on. Needed for the most powerful ritualistic Magic.

These examples below portray the "Main Weapon" Strength, the Grimoire is really the Power tool and the Spells within it. Grimoire+Hand would throw spells from the Grimoire real fast, but it would also be weaker than throwing spells with a Wand. Having a Sword in your Main Hand would allow you to cast spells with the sword at a long range but it would really be weak. You could send your Sword (Force Throw) at enemies, enchant the Sword with powerful Magic and so on.

* Hand & Grimoire: Arcane, Fastest & Weakest.
* Wand & Grimoire: Arcane, Fast & Weak.
* Dagger/Sword & Grimoire: Blood Magic. Weak Arcane Magic.


Each "School of Magic" would have 1 Grimoire each. A Necromancer's Grimoire might be covered in skulls and bones, and Necromancy Spells are strongest, and wouldn't be able to have Magic from other schools in it (except a few, and weaker magic). Depending on how you build your Grimoire, early on, it takes more and more of a shape towards that School. A Jack-of-All Trades Grimoire would have a wider variety of Spells, but they wouldn't be as strong as the Necromancer's at Necromancy (or any of the schools).

Edited by Osvir, 15 November 2012 - 02:29 PM.


#5
Karkarov

Karkarov

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3116 posts
  • Steam:Karkarov
  • PSN Portable ID:Karkarov
  • Xbox Gamertag:Karkarov
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Watcher
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Not sure I agree with most of this. Leveling up based on weapons seems redundant when they have already said they are going to use a class based system. Also what happens when you want to make a character who wields a two hand mace but the only decent weapons you find are axes? Should there be skills that require a specific "type" of weapon setup? Sure. Like you cant use skill X if you aren't duel wielding, or this move requires a shield. But you shouldn't be gated off based on what weapons you have equipped at any given moment. Yes it makes sense to require a player to use maces to get better with maces, but in game terms it is fairly limiting and not that much fun for the player.

You also should not be able to change class just by changing weapons. This works fine in many games, such as the recent Dragon's Dogma for example, but this isn't that type of game. You have a six person party for a reason, all your bases should be covered without the need for your main character to have three different classes under their belt. I don't feel like there is a strong reason for this game to have multi classing at all to be honest.

I like a lot of what you post here, it is some cool stuff and there have been games that I enjoy that went with a similar route. I just don't think this type of method would be ideal for PE. Especially when you factor in that we already know there will be classes, you will be able to buy armor/weapons and craft, etc etc.

Also some things are a little ... illogical. Any player choice that results in you running with fewer than six party members should obviously result in more exp. Regardless of what it is you are doing you did it with fewer people, same exp split fewer ways is more exp per person. Why do you need a small party to be "non lethal?" Why is a party of three rogues more effective than one that is six rogues? Also we already know the exp will be objective based, so you won't get exp for picking pockets or passing speech checks unless they lead to objective completion. If you did it would be sort of bad because that encourages the type of play they have already said they don't want in game. IE: The guy who runs around and picks every single npc's pocket just to raise his pick pocket skill or max out his exp, or tries to fast talk every npc for no reason to just get more speech skill. Again, realistic, but very gamey and less fun but more grind.

Again lots of interesting things here, but I am not sure these ideas will work well in PE.
  • Ieo and Osvir like this

#6
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Leveling up based on weapons seems redundant when they have already said they are going to use a class based system.


And how do you level those classes up in this class based system of Obsidian?

6 Rogues running about would gather more attention than 3 Rogues as well, and with my idea 6 Rogues would still not grow in skill as fast as a 3 man group. Okay, a smallar group being more effective than a 6 man group because A, you get more experience for your Out of Combat skills, B, you get more experience for Out of Combat skills. This is important because the Non-Lethal approach takes place out of combat and the Non-Lethal approach should be much weaker than the Lethal approach by the end of the game, and without combat being interesting why should I even care about combat? (also what with the Weapon Experience thoughts, make Combat rewarding somehow!)

Uhm hm, think Baldur's Gate but with some of these ideas. That's where I'm at.

The weapon idea is merely a reward system for the Action progression. Why shouldn't I become better with a Sword if I'm using it? I am slightly concerned about the idea that I have to do questing to suddenly "Ding" without any involvement in struggle as well as "Why should I even bother?" many times ("Oh but you can get gear!" says the counter-argument, well if I've met 500 bandits dropping Leather Armor I'll hardly need to take down the group of bandits that stands in the way of my passage, are they placed there just to annoy me or to be rewarding?). Suddenly I'd have weapon abilities out of the blue, magic spells (<- talking about only Quest Based system, there is no reward for the struggle but only for the End of the Journey, and to me as a philosopher that sound like something related to your Character and the Player, not to the Skill of Arms)

I'll try to explain it like I did in another thread:
Chop chop with sword = Experience with that Weapon
Exploring the world/Questing/Adventuring = Experience for Character

Also what happens when you want to make a character who wields a two hand mace but the only decent weapons you find are axes? Should there be skills that require a specific "type" of weapon setup? Sure. Like you cant use skill X if you aren't duel wielding, or this move requires a shield. But you shouldn't be gated off based on what weapons you have equipped at any given moment. Yes it makes sense to require a player to use maces to get better with maces, but in game terms it is fairly limiting and not that much fun for the player.


You'd have time to fairly get a grasp of different items between Introduction Area (like many other games) -> First Town and slightly past the First Town of course. When you get to the first town you should've accumulated some gold (or have some from start) and should be able to get everything (basic) you want or need. The most you'd lose in experience for the weapon of choice would be minimal.

Yes it makes sense to require a player to use maces to get better with maces, but in game terms it is fairly limiting and not that much fun for the player.


I understand this statement but I don't at the same time. Elaborate.

You also should not be able to change class just by changing weapons. This works fine in many games, such as the recent Dragon's Dogma for example, but this isn't that type of game. You have a six person party for a reason, all your bases should be covered without the need for your main character to have three different classes under their belt. I don't feel like there is a strong reason for this game to have Multi-Classing at all to be honest.



Let me elaborate then. It wouldn't change your Class from Fighter to Ranger just because you put on a Bow, you'd still be a Fighter, but in essence you would grow in skill with the Bow and be able to learn techniques that the Ranger uses with the Bow. You wouldn't get "Ranger" Class Abilities but "Bow" Weapon Abilities. So it's more in the ways of gaining techniques from the most preferred weapon/tool of the other Class. You'd be a Fighter/Ranger in essence but it'd still say "Fighter" in your statistics screen and you'd get "Fighter" Abilities as well. You'd be weaker with a Bow than a Ranger of course. Bow was really a bad example, but change Bow with Grimoire and Ranger with Wizard, it's the same thing different name.

Maybe I want 1 Multi-Class Fighter/Druid (Jaheira) in my party, or a Monk that casts magic with a Grimoire etc. etc. I am probably not the only one either. With my idea you could get a Jack of All Trades type of character if you wanted to, at your core you'll still be a Fighter but have some spread out weapon skills and magic. It is a 6 party based game, but the Main Character is still the Main Character, and you'd have accessibility to make an oddball party and oddball Party-tactics (you'd be able to tailor your Party more to your play style with lots of variety to choose from, and you'd let everyone else do so as well).

If you did it would be sort of bad because that encourages the type of play they have already said they don't want in game. IE: The guy who runs around and picks every single npc's pocket just to raise his pick pocket skill or max out his exp, or tries to fast talk every npc for no reason to just get more speech skill. Again, realistic, but very gamey and less fun but more grind.


Tasks in Towns
Being able to send out party members on tasks when you get to a City. Burglary, manage Business, gather Information etc. etc. something you can do once a time you get into town. Your pickpocket skill could grow in that way, and you can't abuse it. Solved it.

Thanks for answering :)

Edited by Osvir, 15 November 2012 - 08:17 PM.


#7
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Yes it makes sense to require a player to use maces to get better with maces, but in game terms it is fairly limiting and not that much fun for the player.



Also, it makes little sense that I would become better with a Mace if I wield a Sword. Sure, perhaps I could understand the length, the combat aspects, I'm an experienced Level 4 Fighter now so I should be able to fight better generally, I'd be stronger with a Mace than if I were Level 1, heck even Level 3. But if I've never wielded a Mace before this point I shouldn't be as skillful as I am with a Sword which I've been honing on my journey up until now. A Mace weighs very differently and is handled differently than a Sword, though because your character is more experienced now (Level 4) perhaps his learning of the Mace gets more experience due to the Character's own enlightenment, making him level the Mace faster up to a point (but because you dropped the Sword, you won't be as good consistently throughout the game, not noticeable but for mechanics sake, with a Mace, you'd still be able to max it out, but if you had kept the Sword you would have maxed the Sword out first).

There should be enough experience/enemies in the world so that you can Cap 1-2 Main-Hand weapons (One capped at Level 5 and another one perhaps at Level 3-4 perhaps) and at most 3 if you are OCD (switching weapons on the exact 500/500 mark mid-combat to gain as much experience as possible on as many styles weapons as possible).

So in short (pick only one):
* 1 Level 5 Weapon Experience & 1 Level 3-4
* 2 Level 5 & a 3rd on Level 2 at most
* 3 Level 5 (Mace, Sword, Hammer)

Likewise, how do I get better with anything by just doing Quests? Except obvious Character life experience.

How I'm trying to think with this thread:

Effective, variety, different builds and build orders is the way to go, opens up so many more possibilities to variety and to make each game more different for both you, me and everyone else over several playthroughs. More techy (Baldur's Gate really is an RTS SP RPG in my opinion, so many Strategy elements that are used still in popular strategy games today and so many strategy elements in the game itself). Some play Zerg, and even "those Zerg people" <=| :devil:(o) Everyone has their own style.

How do you build an open system that has as many styles as possible but with limited resources in the game (not talking Project Budget, but Eternity World)?

How do you make an effective Build Order system that covers as much variable ground as possible for a Single Player RPG?

This thread is my homage to that idea and those questions I s'pose. Even in Baldur's Gate, I am sure that most of us got different gear (or close to similar gear) different Party Setups (based on our mods, which is a question of really adding to our own play styles. The more mods the more variability, that's why mods exist isn't it? To have more choice?).

If more choice is included right off the bat in an effective, consistent way, we will have more freedom to explore our builds and characters like we want them and specifically, in our own way. If it is effective for variety, and it's easy to create more patterns for it I say it's the way to go for as many as possible to enjoy it (Borderlands right? How many weapons exist in the game?):

[X] Armor with 3 Upgrade Slots
[1][2][3]

Let's say there's 6 Pieces that you can put into each slot (ABCDEF), to be honest it might need to be lesser but for examples sake.

It's 9 Calculations per First Letter (27 combinations built from 6 items combined with 3 slots)
[A][A][A]
[A](B)[A]
[A](B)(B)
[A][A](B)
[A][C][A]
[A][C][C]
[A][A][C]
[A](B)[C]
[A][C](B)

(B)(B)(B)
...

[C][C][C]
...

Suddenly you have somewhat a... basically a Slot Machine, the chances that your build is the same as someone else's lessen's with only 6 Pieces and 3 Slots. Mix-Match however you want it. Now imagine doing the same thing with helmets as well, now you aren't just playing with 27 combinations, but now you've added 3 slots and 6 pieces more and the combination methods are now near endless, and everyone can build their character like they want it (But that would require HEAVY DUTY QA I'm sure, not that every combination perhaps should be explored but let the Players find out for themselves at release, this sets the Player himself on an adventure for "New Ground" that no one, not even the developers, have a real idea about).

Helmet ranges from GHIJKL

- Armor - - Helmet - - Leggings - - Gloves - - Boots -
[A][A][A]-[G][G][H]
[A][A][A]-[G][G][G]
...

I think you get it :)

Posted Image
^This is my dream. A Beautiful Tree (gosh doesn't anyone of the UI department have any innovation with the Skill Tree Design and Animation? ;) it has had that form quite long now = Mastery Style, seen in every popular game nowadays almost... not talking about League of Legends), still part of the whole without straying from the course, integrating World, Classes, Races, Conflict, Gods, Weapons, Armor into the whole system where it is fluid Growth and fluid flowing progression in Harmony (even if you play a Chaotic character, though including Chaos into the Mechanics for a Chaotic character would be cool and perhaps fun for developer and player alike). Everything is ultimately part of the tree (The World itself).

On Resources
A resource based system RPG. When I mention Minecraft and Terraria in these kinds of discussions I am not talking about Crafting a Workbench or Craft a House, cut down wood etc.etc.

Minecraft: Cut down tree. Get resources. Build wooden walls.

My idea: Cut down bandit. Get resources. Upgrade Armor.

I can't really drop this quote yet either:

Yes it makes sense to require a player to use maces to get better with maces, but in game terms it is fairly limiting and not that much fun for the player.


I am actually advocating that every class should be able to use all weapons/all armor, a Wizard in Heavy Armor with Sword and Shield, a Rogue, Monk and so on and so on. At one point it should tip over to the edge where your Wizard isn't entirely a Wizard but a different type of Wizard (-your- Wizard).
Posted Image
Something to think about.

Edited by Osvir, 16 November 2012 - 12:56 AM.


#8
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
This is an excerpt from the OP:

]Weapon Experience[/u] Sword Level 1 67/500 to Level Up (Caps at Level 5)
So enemies, regular enemies, give experience, but only to the weapon you are wielding when taking down enemies. When you gain a level in the Weapon you could gain an "Ability" or choose between 2 (X-COM style). Having a weapon in your Off-Hand levels both that Weapon and your Off-Hand. In essence this is what the Baldur's Gate "experience" really is. Gain experience when you've taken down an enemy, not by slashing.

Off-Hand Experience Off-Hand levels in a way which gives you a better Shield-Arm, or a better Dual-Wielding experience. Magic Tools do not grow in Experience in the same way. Off-Hand can be split up into 345 6 Sections (you know what? Let's just say "Undecided"). Works just like Weapon Experience in that you "Gain Experience in that you are Wearing". If you choose to have 2 Swords you'll get Dual-Wielding Experience, having a Two-Handed Weapon gives you Two-Handed Experience. You can't get Experience for 2-Handed when you've got a Sword & Board etc. etc. if you get Level 3 with a Sword and Equip a Sword on an Off-Hand would give the Sword Experience on the Off-Hand a Penalty (based on Dual-Wielding). If Dual-Wielding is Level 3 and the Sword is Level 3, no penalties, but if Dual-Wielding is Level 2 and Sword is Level 3, the off-hand Sword becomes Level 2. Simple? Magic Wielding works in the same way differently and covered throughout the post.

- One-Handed Experience (One weapon, 1 Sword)
- Sword & Board Experience (In Essence Sword & Shield)
- Two-Handed Experience (Single Two-Handed Sword, Staff is a Hybrid)
- Dual-Wielding Experience (Two Weapons, Sword/Sword)
- Magic Wielding Experience (Off-Hand Grimoire/Magic Tool, Staff is a Hybrid)
- Unarmed Experience (Fighting with knuckles, a Hybrid with a Grimoire)

Spell Experience
Is different, and based on your Character Level and resources (finding scrolls/buying scrolls at a merchant/Wizard) as well. A Magic Missile would shoot 2 Missiles at Character Level 3. But! Magic Wielding Experience makes Spells stronger and leveling up Magic Wielding could give you 2 abilities to choose from (X-COM style) to determine Effects of the Spell (Fire Magic Missiles? One Large Magic Missile that is charged longer?).


Having different types of Schools of Magic and you gain experience of that School you upgrade your Grimoire towards. So you might start off as a Fresh Wizard without a school, but you get to upgrade your Grimoire after using it (Equipped during battle).

Grimoire:
Level 0: Fresh from the bat of character creation.
Level 1: You get to choose school or a Jack-of-All Trades School
Level 2(School): ~~

Having a Second Grimoire would set the 2nd Grimoire to Level 0, allowing you to specialize it into another School.

Edited by Osvir, 16 November 2012 - 01:49 PM.


#9
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Jail
[Speech] and gold on your party members sent on tasks can both lessens the chance to get caught and heightens the chances of successful looting (better looting cities). If getting caught, a "Rogue"/Companion with high enough [Speech] and enough gold on him/her can automatically talk him/herself out of a situation (and loose some gold as if paying his/her way out of the bad situation). When a character is sent to jail (Or "Wanted") you will have to save him/her from Jail or wait til "Time has been Served".


Gold as an item, that weighs. So you'd have to switch around between your party members. The very first Might & Magic has a simple method. Press "G" to "Gather Gold" at shops, this gives the person selected/up front all the gold in your party. Could I trade gold with my companions, and depending on how much gold they get (depending on their personalities) their Morale gets better.

#10
Heresiarch

Heresiarch

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 205 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
I absolutely hate weapon-specific skills and experience. In effect it means that you walk with a single weapon type through the whole game and all other weapons, however good they are, become vendor trash. Why? Because their bonuses do not compensate for a buttload of skills and perks that come along with the weapon you specialised in. If you use multiple weapons throughout the game just to spite the system you typically become a suboptimal fighter without the access to high-end weapon abilities and bonuses, which also sucks.

Giving the player an option to change weapons (not just sword for a bow, but sword for a mace or an axe, depending on a situation) greatly improves the experience and tactical value of the game.
  • FlintlockJazz, SGray and JFSOCC like this

#11
JFSOCC

JFSOCC

    Mentor & Student of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2255 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

I absolutely hate weapon-specific skills and experience. In effect it means that you walk with a single weapon type through the whole game and all other weapons, however good they are, become vendor trash. Why? Because their bonuses do not compensate for a buttload of skills and perks that come along with the weapon you specialised in. If you use multiple weapons throughout the game just to spite the system you typically become a suboptimal fighter without the access to high-end weapon abilities and bonuses, which also sucks.

Giving the player an option to change weapons (not just sword for a bow, but sword for a mace or an axe, depending on a situation) greatly improves the experience and tactical value of the game.

I agree, and if you do make the player specialize, then the player should have access to all types of weapons right from the start. (it makes no sense to invest in a weapon skill of a weapon you haven't seen yet, after all)

#12
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

I absolutely hate weapon-specific skills and experience. In effect it means that you walk with a single weapon type through the whole game and all other weapons, however good they are, become vendor trash. Why? Because their bonuses do not compensate for a buttload of skills and perks that come along with the weapon you specialised in. If you use multiple weapons throughout the game just to spite the system you typically become a suboptimal fighter without the access to high-end weapon abilities and bonuses, which also sucks.

Giving the player an option to change weapons (not just sword for a bow, but sword for a mace or an axe, depending on a situation) greatly improves the experience and tactical value of the game.


Excellent statement and here's my rebuttal:

A, It is a party based game. Why should your Fighter be good with every single weapon known to man when you've got 6 party members that you can spread the weapons out on? Where is the vendor trash when your Fighter is great with a Sword and your Barbarian is awesome with Axes and your Paladin or Priest got Blunt (Maces/Hammers) Mastery?

B, For a solo character experience you would gain more experience with all weapons, making it possible for your character to have more diversity. Let me quote a section in the wall of text (one character mastering several weapons, even in a full party):

So in short (pick only one):
* 1 Level 5 Weapon Experience & 1 Level 3-4
* 2 Level 5 & a 3rd on Level 2 at most
* 3 Level 5 (Mace, Sword, Hammer)



^^^that is for end-game Masteries with a 6 party in mind (how many weapons have you mastered til the end-point of the game?). A solo character would probably be able to master 6-7 weapons/styles, if not more. "(pick only one)" is asking for your input, how many weapons would be feasible to Master by the end of the game if "Level 5" is Max level on the weapon?

I am not talking some small sums (take down 10 enemies, gain a level), nor a TES-like experience. In Baldur's Gate it works like this:

Take down Bandit = Get 15 experience out of 1'000 experience. <- That is exactly what I'm advocating for, for the weapon experience (and not some TES variant where "Hit" determines experience and/or leveling up)

Weapon Skills aren't necessary, but there should be a reward for getting a "Level" in a Weapon ("+1 To Hit Chance" or something, +1 To Damage or Accuracy basically).

Like you hate the idea, I hate the idea that my characters will gain most of the experience from Questing and suddenly be master swordsmen. Specially if they aren't even Fighters (A Wizard becoming a Master Swordsman as an excellent example... how?)

How many weapons do you master in the IE games? I think my Fighter in Baldur's Gate 2 got something like this (level 10-ish, 8, I'm recalling from memory... pfft okay fine I'll boot BG2 up and check it out xD):
3 in Sword & Board (2)
2 in Axes (3)
2 in something else I can't remember. (1 Warhammer)

EDIT: By the way, my Fighter has been wielding Axes from the very start of Candlekeep to the point in the game where I'm at now. Just saying!

2nd EDIT: I would love to see more input on this thread, more ideas, more issues and more problems! If you see something you don't like, give me a chance to counter-argue or find solutions for it. Perhaps something completely different from what I've written spawns out of it, maybe you've got ideas that would make this idea way better and perhaps entirely different.

Going to refer to my post in the "Dev Team Sharing the Process".

I'm reflecting on the title, "Dev team sharing process". Turn it around, "Forum sharing process". I've got some pretty wild ideas that I'm putting out but I have no idea how it actually works entirely in development in a company. I can only phantom a concept of what it requires, the project organizing, job placements, deadlines, communication, material (so much material :o). I've played around coding a little bit, managed to say "Hello World" with programming after some hours. Played around with different 3D art tools, played in different editors, done some easy insignificant modding. Most of my knowledge is from what I've read on wikias, forums, tutorials and some programmer and ex-schooled designers (1 is studying ZBrush and is an amazing artist). There are tons of different assets in each and every one of these tools (Editor or Utility). TONS.

To the point, forum sharing the process is that we throw ideas at Obsidian, how much help are we, really? How much do we help?

1. "Paladins are awesome!" <- is true from how I view them.

2. But does it say that a certain group of Paladin could be of a specific order meant to cleanse and purge, fanatically hunting down innocent men, women and children, believing they are spreading the Justice of [Insert God] as if they were on steroids and hallucinations of grandeur?

How much does it help?

I like to think: A lot :) and if we aren't helping I like to think that Obsidian will say something, or if there is some way to help out more effectively and better. Obsidian always has Final Word and I also like to believe that they know that they aren't obliged to use anything written here (regarding the latter, I know/feel/think that others feel differently, this is just my personal opinion).


Edited by Osvir, 03 December 2012 - 02:15 AM.


#13
SGray

SGray

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 92 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Character Level
... This level determines the Armor you can wear (Tier 1, 2... 4) Weapons you use (Tier 1, 2... 4) Spells you can cast (Level 1, 2... 9). General Strength Growth. More Armor slots in your Inventory (Helmet, Gloves) a linear simplified License System (FF12).

Hate that concept. You need to be lvl X to swing this sword, so even if I find some god-slaying uber short-sword of awesomeness i couldn't use it or it wouldn't be different from generic sword I'm using now.
Next thing - opening slots, not better one. Oh, wow I've gained a lvl and now I revealed an ancient mystery of how to use those things in my backpack: they're called "gloves" and i should wear them on my hands. Opening slots could be used if justified somehow - mage able to ward more rings or amulets from interfering, rogue, able to fit more tools on his belt or warrior able to fasten some additional weapon to his armor for quick access. But not the common slots.
*Btw X-Com 2012 inventory system was sh... erm, bad.
Next - split skill choice worked well in simplified X-Com, but it's bad in D&D-inspired rpg. I don't wont to be locked from taking second of previous lvl ability for no apparent reason.
  • Osvir likes this

#14
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
^I agree about the "Oh snap I don't know how to use gloves I need to become a higher level". I'd laugh if I saw this but... no, you are correct :)


EDIT: For the heck of it, my train of thought:

Character Level determining the "Level" of your armor (specifically, not going to address the Weapons) is because of the Armor Experience/Resource Gathering. If you could go Full Plate instantly you'd find no use for the Leather Armor that you could've buffed up.

Examples: I start off the world, get a Leather Armor, gain a couple of Character Levels. Been buffing up my Leather Armor with resources and it is really good at this point, I'm also now a Level capable of wearing Full Plate but changing to the Full Plate will give me a "blank" non-upgraded Full Plate mail, whilst my Leather Armor is well adjusted to my play style at this point (for the Rogue).

For a Fighter perhaps the Leather Armor makes him better in some aspects, the Full Plate Mail would be giving more defenses and I'd be able to build it stronger but at the point I'm getting it it could be weaker in some respects. I could use it in certain circumstances and switch around between the FP Mail and the buffed Leather. Likewise I could build on the Full Plate (in my inventory) whilst wearing the Leather Armor.

There were some talk about "Medium Armor" being difficult because it has no definite "value" in any of the IE games, which is what I'm trying to address with the Character based "what can you wear?" and Armor Resource Management.

Edited by Osvir, 03 December 2012 - 02:44 AM.


#15
SGray

SGray

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 92 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Examples: I start off the world, get a Leather Armor, gain a couple of Character Levels. Been buffing up my Leather Armor with resources and it is really good at this point, I'm also now a Level capable of wearing Full Plate but changing to the Full Plate will give me a "blank" non-upgraded Full Plate mail, whilst my Leather Armor is well adjusted to my play style at this point (for the Rogue).

Like that idea but I think it relates more to the armor expertise, not to the character lvl. Say, after gaining some exp while wearing this armor type you gain next <type of armor> expertise rank and able to tell local tailor or blacksmith how exactly he could adjust armor you wearing to be more flexible, or to cover weak spots you've noticed, or to place runes, where they wouldn't wear out.
But if I sold everything (including my companions to slavery) solely to buy that full plate in first major town - why not?
Armor type balancing shouldn't be done solely by lvl limits (you would encounter civilization on some point with full access to all armor types). There could be many other factors, like, aside from common used differences and restrictions: much higher price for more complex armor and it's upgrades, better compatibility with certain upgrade types, different proficiency bonuses rate (like partial plate at highest proficiency could be almost as effective as full plate, but when you're in good full plate - there isn't much to learn about), etc.

*Great vid, btw )

Edited by SGray, 03 December 2012 - 04:09 AM.

  • Osvir likes this

#16
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
If I'm getting your post right: Could a Leather Armor become Medium Armor and the Medium Armor become Full Plate?? I think we might be onto something here.

Edited by Osvir, 03 December 2012 - 04:21 AM.


#17
Ninjamestari

Ninjamestari

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 710 posts
Whoa, slow it down guys. You're becoming so immersed in these ideas of yours that you're forgetting what was your goal in the first place ;)

#18
SGray

SGray

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 92 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
Not sure if it should become another class of armor itself. If it's so it could be done to ridiculous extent - the first rags you've found could be made to the best armor ever with whole upgrades and perks from "almost not an armor" to heaviest full plate, maintaining all applied buffs. But mentioned rags with some patches, enchantments and magic buffs could become better then generic or slightly enchanted light armor. Buffed to the same extent light armor should be same or better anyway.
So, I'd say - let the armor classes be as they are, not next tier is heavier but light/medium/heavy are different.

About diversity in same class - imo buffed to the top armor of same class should be pretty much equal, with slight differences - say, default fur armor is generally weaker, but better accepts magic enhancements (was offered in some thread) and harder to became proficient with, leather one better accepts craft enhancements and easier to make a full use, but both providing generally same stats when fully developed. (Mb with slight prevalence of fur one as bonus for harder way.)
Exactly same with partial and full plate. On highest proficiency partial plate provides almost same protection, and somewhat better movement than full plate on the highest proficiency. If you wish - you could get almost the best right away buying full plate, or aim for the highest efficiency tailoring more adjustable one to your likings, but that's long process.
This provides armor diversity and distinguishes looks of experienced adventurer from the one that could get the best armor but has less proficiency with it (military, nobles). And prevent all high lvl warriors from being generic tanks (in original meaning of the word).
  • Osvir likes this

#19
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Whoa, slow it down guys. You're becoming so immersed in these ideas of yours that you're forgetting what was your goal in the first place ;)


What is my goal? I'm just thinking out different aspects, new ideas, what I think is effective ways to build your character and the growth progression of your character for both player and developer alike. The goal for me is to produce as much material/inspiration as possible so that Obsidian gets more "insights" and/or ideas to make it as effective as possible. If this thread is completely down the drain of being "effective" I hope "someone" says something.

^That's my goal. If I'm not immersed by my own ideas, how is someone else going to be? I'll just stamp this thread (like I've done in other threads) so you know where I'm at: Not expecting anything, P:E will be fine with or without the involvement of anything on these forums. I have faith in Obsidian that they will make what's best for P:E ;) they've got Final Word, Middle Word and First Word (not excluding the famous Middle Finger as well). The DM rules these forums.

Unrelated but, ninjas are cool :ninja: :ninja: :ninja:
  • SGray likes this

#20
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Not sure if it should become another class of armor itself. If it's so it could be done to ridiculous extent - the first rags you've found could be made to the best armor ever with whole upgrades and perks from "almost not an armor" to heaviest full plate, maintaining all applied buffs.


Armor on armor on armor. You start off with rags, but you build it up, put some more leather on it from those Bandits you slew and now you've not got rags (but an armor functioning as a leather armor). Later we meet some guards in chainmail, we slay those guys too and add on the resources to our rags+leather making a chainmail. Then there's some Templars being pesky and we take them down with some ease and add their Plate Mail to our composition. Rags into Leather into Chain into Plate. Of course you'd be able to get to the Craftsmen and buy a fresh piece of plate and/or upgrade your rags with some excessive vendor trash that the Craftsman is selling to you to transform the rags into something... more.

^^Craftsmen would be more important for those who play a non-lethal approach. And of course non-lethal take downs and strip the unconscious guard naked.

So when I say "buff" I really mean "build" (e.g., not magically buffing, which shouldn't be excluded).

Edited by Osvir, 03 December 2012 - 08:38 AM.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: solutions, growth, magic, tools, weapons, experience, level, character, class, multi-class

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users