Dragon Age 2

[Orogun01]

What is important: he's an experienced game designer, thus his opinion should carry some weight. I personally agree with him. If I was a boss in Bioware I'd value an experienced employees opinion.

More importantly: all that crap about "streamlining gameplay", "innovation" and a thousand other excuses for Bioware's failure to truly innovate on their original formula gains weight when its subtly pointed out by the very people working on their project - or refusing to do so.

 

What about the experienced game designers that embraced the change?

 

 

 

Jokes aside, designers don't decide what's popular or what can make money, which is the one and only point of this change - someone thought this way DA would be a better cash cow. Nothing to do with creativity. Also this way its more easily adaptable to consoles, which is again the same thing - more moneyz.

 

 

 

am suggesting an alternative reason for the consolized changes we sees in da2: time. da2 development is relative short, and many o' the streamlining efforts is intended more to save resources than they is motivated by creativity or a genuine belief that such changes will create more revenue. bio is trying to cut fat from da so they can get the game released Q1 2011, and if some stuff many o' us view as pc staples can be cut, then so be it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

They already had everything worked out from DA. Why not just tweak that engine? Nah, the final product was always Dragon Effect. They are just dumbing down everything for their new audience.

[Hurlshort]

The tweaks from Mass Effect to Mass Effect 2 rocked. Just getting rid of the terrible inventory/omni-gel system alone was a huge improvement.

[Gorth]

The tweaks from Mass Effect to Mass Effect 2 rocked. Just getting rid of the terrible inventory/omni-gel system alone was a huge improvement.

Weren't the tweaks fro ME1 to ME2 similar in style to the tweaks done from BG1 to BG2?

 

I.e. less filler maps with one or two random, inconsequential encounter and more significant locations. BG1 might have covered more square meters of map, but the content felt less than the stuff you had to do in the more focused maps of BG2 (usual disclaimer: I've only tried xbox360 ME1 for 30 minutes, half of which was the bad 3d moon buggy game).

 

Edit: Which is sort of a scary thought really, as ME3 would be the ToB equivalent then.

[Tigranes]

I don't know enough about the ME side, but BG2 was so, so amazingly larger, and most importantly, expanded and extended the tactical combat available in BG1 in a huge number of ways. Obviously there were some changes, some would argue for the worse (i.e. ranged attack going from overpoweringly awesome to not very), but really, in the context of everything else, BG2 was about doing BG1 bigger & better.

 

Arguably that's what ME2 did, though I keep hearing about the actionification of combat for one.

[Gorth]

I don't know enough about the ME side, but BG2 was so, so amazingly larger, and most importantly, expanded and extended the tactical combat available in BG1 in a huge number of ways. Obviously there were some changes, some would argue for the worse (i.e. ranged attack going from overpoweringly awesome to not very), but really, in the context of everything else, BG2 was about doing BG1 bigger & better.

 

Arguably that's what ME2 did, though I keep hearing about the actionification of combat for one.

You could argue that no longer pausing while accessing the inventory in BG2 was a "dumbing down" of combat

 

Edit: It could of course also be that I played BG2 first and therefore died constantly when trying to rearm my archers during combat...

[RPGmasterBoo]

What is important: he's an experienced game designer, thus his opinion should carry some weight. I personally agree with him. If I was a boss in Bioware I'd value an experienced employees opinion.

More importantly: all that crap about "streamlining gameplay", "innovation" and a thousand other excuses for Bioware's failure to truly innovate on their original formula gains weight when its subtly pointed out by the very people working on their project - or refusing to do so.

 

What about the experienced game designers that embraced the change?

 

 

 

Jokes aside, designers don't decide what's popular or what can make money, which is the one and only point of this change - someone thought this way DA would be a better cash cow. Nothing to do with creativity. Also this way its more easily adaptable to consoles, which is again the same thing - more moneyz.

 

 

 

am suggesting an alternative reason for the consolized changes we sees in da2: time. da2 development is relative short, and many o' the streamlining efforts is intended more to save resources than they is motivated by creativity or a genuine belief that such changes will create more revenue. bio is trying to cut fat from da so they can get the game released Q1 2011, and if some stuff many o' us view as pc staples can be cut, then so be it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Quite possible, I didn't think of that. (that former designer did mention recent "cutbacks" as well)

Edited October 11, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Bos_hybrid]

am suggesting an alternative reason for the consolized changes we sees in da2: time. da2 development is relative short, and many o' the streamlining efforts is intended more to save resources than they is motivated by creativity or a genuine belief that such changes will create more revenue. bio is trying to cut fat from da so they can get the game released Q1 2011, and if some stuff many o' us view as pc staples can be cut, then so be it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

If your trying to reduce budget, you don't add an expensive and entirely superfluous feature liked Voiced PC.

[Nepenthe]

am suggesting an alternative reason for the consolized changes we sees in da2: time. da2 development is relative short, and many o' the streamlining efforts is intended more to save resources than they is motivated by creativity or a genuine belief that such changes will create more revenue. bio is trying to cut fat from da so they can get the game released Q1 2011, and if some stuff many o' us view as pc staples can be cut, then so be it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

If your trying to reduce budget, you don't add an expensive and entirely superfluous feature liked Voiced PC.

 

Sure you do.

 

Obviously having one guy (and a girl) read lines is a lot less expensive than having a team work on the game for 3 years instead of 18 months (or whatever the cycle is now - I'd say 18 looks pretty close to the mark). Then you can say "we had to shorten the game due to the amount of data the fully-voiced PC consumed).

[Monte Carlo]

And as they say in showbiz: you can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter!

[Volourn]

"You could argue that no longer pausing while accessing the inventory in BG2 was a "dumbing down" of combat"

 

Actually, that would be 'smartening up' the combat.

[Bos_hybrid]

 

If your trying to reduce budget, you don't add an expensive and entirely superfluous feature liked Voiced PC.

 

Sure you do.

 

Obviously having one guy (and a girl) read lines is a lot less expensive than having a team work on the game for 3 years instead of 18 months (or whatever the cycle is now - I'd say 18 looks pretty close to the mark). Then you can say "we had to shorten the game due to the amount of data the fully-voiced PC consumed).

 

Gaider was always going on about how a voiced PC would half the game.

[Volourn]

"If your trying to reduce budget, you don't add an expensive and entirely superfluous feature liked Voiced PC."

 

You calling this feature 'superfluous' means you obviously don't know what the word means. The fact that voiced PC is a heavily pimped feature in games and that plenty of customers love having it, it is far from 'superfluous'. L0LZ

 

The fact you dislike voiced PC personally doesn't make it superfluous. The arrogance of some people who feels games should be made for them and only them.

 

I guarantee you that if BIo made DA only to your (or my) specifications, it would bomb.

[sorophx]

Volo, don't you get tired of saying the same thing over and over again? shows how much you think of our intellectual abilities

[Gorth]

Volo, don't you get tired of saying the same thing over and over again?

That doesn't exactly make anybody stand out in a crowd in these quarters

 

More commenting on posts and points, less on posters (in general)?

[Gromnir]

we didn't say anything 'bout reducing budget. bio has less TIME. to get me:fereldan made in time for the Q1 2011 deadline, bio had to trim the fat... and the pc staples seems to be deemed fat.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Orogun01]

Whatever happened to making quality games instead of just pulling some **** together and calling it canon?

[Gromnir]

Whatever happened to making quality games instead of just pulling some **** together and calling it canon?

 

 

never existed. you express a mythical and expensive conceit that is embraced by fans rather than by developers and publishers. quality is important 'cause it impacts current and future sales. some developers is more concerned with long-term goodwill o' their fan-base... because that impacts sales.

 

is perhaps ironic that the individual developers who pays greatest lip-service to the false idol that is "Game Quality" is frequent the ones least able to deliver... and we ain't just talking 'bout tim cain.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tale]

What happened to the time when people didn't abuse the word canon?

 

Or lore?

[Raithe]

What happened to the time when people didn't abuse the word canon?

 

Or lore?

 

Internet fandom happened. .. Oh, and fan slashfiction. and the concepts of flame war. And the geek's belief that any difference of opinion and a successful resolution of an internet argument gives you the rights to the losers catgirl...

[meomao]

we didn't say anything 'bout reducing budget. bio has less TIME. to get me:fereldan made in time for the Q1 2011 deadline, bio had to trim the fat... and the pc staples seems to be deemed fat.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I don't know. Maybe you're right but BG II was developed in the same time frame of DA2. No to mention the fact that trimming fat is good for games from time to time.

 

For me the explanation is simpler: DA:O sold mostly on consolle even if it was marketed as a PC title with a consolle port. But on the consolle combat was not received well at all. Bioware have received many critics for the consolle version of DA:O (wich were right critics mostly). So, since DA2 is a consolle title with a PC port (not a problem admitting it), since consolle users are the biggest part of their player base and the game would have failed miserably if sold as a pc title only, they had to rework the combat and fine tuining it to the new main platform. I don't know if the final result will be worst than DA:O. I'll reserve my judgement after I've played the game.

 

Voice over was a feature asked by a great part of the player base: PC and consolle alike. I'm one of those who prefer voice over: I think that it's better in a storydriven game where everyone is voiced (even if the wheel is far from perfect).

Edited October 12, 2010 by meomao

[Meshugger]

Before we dwell too far into the term "quality", we should define it properly. Since Bioware is company that deals in business, lets use the ISO 9000 definition: "Degree to which a set of inherent characteristics fulfills requirements."

 

Now we have a problem with DA2's quality though. What are the requirements to begin with? Also what acts as the decider for these requirements to be fulfilled? The company or the potential customer? To give an example ME2 didn't fulfill my requirements, so it is product of low quality, for me. (I haven't bought it/tried it)

Edited October 12, 2010 by Meshugger

[Volourn]

"But on the consolle combat was not received well at all."

 

Kiddin' right? Defend 'not recieved well at all'? The game got extreme high reviews and high ratings for basically every aspect of the game combat included no more the system. Or did you mean the PC fanboys bashed the console version simply out of 'principle'? L0LZ

Edited October 12, 2010 by Volourn

[Tale]

And the geek's belief that any difference of opinion and a successful resolution of an internet argument gives you the rights to the losers catgirl...

I need to start more arguments over the internet...

[WorstUsernameEver]

And the geek's belief that any difference of opinion and a successful resolution of an internet argument gives you the rights to the losers catgirl...

I need to start more arguments over the internet...

 

Just keep in mind that by 'catgirls' he meant 'furries'. Now, if that's your thing, great for you. Most of us avoid internet arguments for exactly that reason.

[meomao]

"But on the consolle combat was not received well at all."

 

Kiddin' right? Defend 'not recieved well at all'? The game got extreme high reviews and high ratings for basically every aspect of the game combat included no more the system. Or did you mean the PC fanboys bashed the console version simply out of 'principle'? L0LZ

 

I remember many review that stated that the combat system in the consolle version was inferior and not developed as well as the PC version. I remember many complaints on Bio board too about that. I never played it on the consolle so I can't really say, but knowing that it was without iso view I really do not understand how it could play out (not that my position matters much, just to say).

 

If the system was indeed perfect as you say, they would have not feel the need to change it so much with such a short dev cycle ahead. And if Bioware feel indeed the need to change the combat system to come "in the way of the audience" (Laidlaw's words in a famous interview) it seems to me that those change were needed to adjust the game to the consolle (even the first DA2's preview in Game Informer imply such things talking about focus group feedback's and such).

 

Then, if you believe that my position is "they are dumbing down the game for consolle" your'e wrong and maybe I did not explained my self. I'm far to believe that and I think that's a pretty stupid generalization.

Edited October 12, 2010 by meomao