Dragon Age 2

[Niten_Ryu]

Change is what keeps Bioware alive and relevant.

 

Morgoth is right about this. They recycle their story elements but only because they have found out that majoirty of their potential customers don't care about that, or might even prefer the same ol' storylines kinda like in JRPGs. They have guts to do all game mechanic changes that seem stupid at first (like removing jump) but in the end they know their customers. They are generally really bad players and thus removing something like jump might even make the game batter for 'em. And at the same time save a lot of level designers time and other resources. Just about every change Bioware make, can be justified by being cost effective versus something they did in the past. We players might not like it but they have figured that it don't hurt the sales too much.

 

Bioware ain't immune. With some game they might make a huge mistake, that majority of the gamers hate (especially since they have to release games much faster then Rockstar, Valve or Blizzard). They have resources to survive from that and maybe then they take few steps back and research again what worked in the past.

[Orogun01]

Morgoth is right about this. They recycle their story elements but only because they have found out that majoirty of their potential customers don't care about that, or might even prefer the same ol' storylines kinda like in JRPGs. They have guts to do all game mechanic changes that seem stupid at first (like removing jump) but in the end they know their customers. They are generally really bad players and thus removing something like jump might even make the game batter for 'em. And at the same time save a lot of level designers time and other resources. Just about every change Bioware make, can be justified by being cost effective versus something they did in the past. We players might not like it but they have figured that it don't hurt the sales too much.

 

Bioware ain't immune. With some game they might make a huge mistake, that majority of the gamers hate (especially since they have to release games much faster then Rockstar, Valve or Blizzard). They have resources to survive from that and maybe then they take few steps back and research again what worked in the past.

Think back to before ME, BW was associated with top notch storytelling. That was their selling point, what drew their fans was the uniqueness and novelty of every game. Now ME,ME2 and DA have failed to bring this to the table. Their universes expertly crafted but the games show nothing of it; because now, they have gone from offering opposing philosophies to different possibilities towards the same end. The storytelling formula hasn't changed one bit, it's still " one great evil terrorizes the land and your PC belongs to a faction/has a special power that will save the world". Instead the getting there is what has declined, no more great twist at the middle of the game, no more variety in choices. They went from being open ended, to multi-linear and apparently they won't stop until hitting kinetic.

 

I understand that with their success the have become more restricted, but they can still try pure innovation with side projects and keep their revenue with the big franchises. That was what DA was supposed to be, a throwback to CRPGs, the "spiritual successor to BG" and in that aspect it failed. Now it has turned into Dragon Effect.

[Tigranes]

I need to watch the interview for myself, but yeah, the impact this 10-year flashback system has on the game will likely make or break DA2 for the likes of me and monte carlo. (No, not everyone, since millions of people inexplicably love what the ME series has done.) But I think its a legitimate criticism - ME series did what it did very well, apparently, while DAO did something different well enough to sell a lot of copies. From the consumer point of view there's no good reason to turn DA2 into ME... if they do.

 

The more I think about it the hub system is the most likely solution to the challenges posed by a 10 year narrative, each hub in a different place and time and the travel between mediated through flashback narration. The other solution, and much more befitting the spirit of DAO / BG / etc, would have been a FF6 solution, where you have the entire gameworld open to you with stuff to do at a certain time, then after a central plot event, you are in the same gameworld but several years later. It wouldn't allow them to move back and forth as they please across those 10 years, but that would maximise the 10-year timeframe's potential to give you great C&C, keep the open world, etc.

 

However, that would require the world to be even larger than DAO's, and I doubt DA2 will be larger in landmass - maybe similar or even a bit shorter. It would also require them to do storytelling in a more 'traditional' manner (i.e. the world lives, according to the rules of the video game, and there happens to be a central plot going on), whereas they seem to be going for a more controlled, interactive novel manner (i.e. the gameworld only exists for and as far as the central plot, which manipulates the gameworld for its purposes). Again, I have yet to watch the interview, but if they're going down the ME route with this then it basically kills half of DA. I didn't buy ME, why try to shove it down my throat with anothe rproduct?

[Volourn]

"Think back to before ME, BW was associated with top notch storytelling. That was their selling point, what drew their fans was the uniqueness and novelty of every game. Now ME,ME2 and DA have failed to bring this to the table."

 

ME series, and DA's stories are just as good as the BGs. BIO has done nothing but improved in their game making ability since they started and its shown by their continued to success. Afterall, if they had gotten worse, they would have died already.

[sorophx]

ME series, and DA's stories are just as good as the BGs.

aha, keep telling that to yourself BGs and Icewind Dale were second only to Planescape: Torment. everything after BG2 was a free fall, and Bio is yet to get out of that pit (looks like it's bottomless though)

[Oblarg]

"Think back to before ME, BW was associated with top notch storytelling. That was their selling point, what drew their fans was the uniqueness and novelty of every game. Now ME,ME2 and DA have failed to bring this to the table."

 

ME series, and DA's stories are just as good as the BGs. BIO has done nothing but improved in their game making ability since they started and its shown by their continued to success. Afterall, if they had gotten worse, they would have died already.

 

DA? Story?

 

Ahahahahahaha, funny joke.

[Volourn]

"BGs and Icewind Dale were second only to Planescape: Torment."

 

BIO didn't make PST or IWD so irrelevant to the conversation.

 

And, while the BG series story was fine, and I enjoyed it.. it's no better than DA or the MEs.

[aries101]

A little anecdote to start with:

 

If you go Wade's Emporium in Denerim in DA:Origins, you'll meet Wade and Herren. At one time, Wade complains that he wishes he'd still have the time to make quality products - like he used to. (I know, the comment is meant to be for armors, but still). Herren then replies with something like: 'the customers needs to get his armour in time, not years after, like....'. I also find this one rather telling; Herren says to Wade: 'and you'll still be eating gruel' or something like that.

 

I've taken this as a comment on the whole quality vs. quantity debate, or maybe even a comment on EA and Bioware's relations-ship? Although that might be stretching it a bit....

 

And yes, we can all wish us back to years ago; however, you have to move on, always learning, always expanding, both as a company and as person, I think.

 

On another note, be thankfull that Bioware is trying something different with their games each time, the old EA was infamous for spouting out sequels that were thinly disguised as the same game - year after year after year.

 

As for Dragon Age: Origins, certain events only trigger after a while, I think. I've learned that Wynne has a spirit tied to her, and at one point, Wynne asked if my dog (Baldur) didn't need a bath. And I think this was a one time only conversation? Sometimes, when I go to camp, and talk to my comrades (npcs), I'll get a cutscene or there will be a cutscene immediately upon arriving at camp. I guess? that it is this technology that they have evolved further.

 

However, I do think that it maybe would be more like the cut-scenes in The Witcher, where you'll learn after a while or right-away what consequences siding with the elves had, for instance.

[Jorian Drake]

Considering that the IGN-reviewer thinks that one is too nerdy to know the difference between ogres, orcs and goblins, i wouldn't be surprised either. All in the name of "broadening" the audience.

 

I chuckled when I saw that. Dude writes on a gaming site about video games, and he's trying to make himself out to be "cool" because he doesn't know the difference between ogres, orcs, or goblins? Who's he fooling?

 

If anything, it just proves he's dumb nerd.

 

fixed

[Jorian Drake]

"Think back to before ME, BW was associated with top notch storytelling. That was their selling point, what drew their fans was the uniqueness and novelty of every game. Now ME,ME2 and DA have failed to bring this to the table."

 

ME series, and DA's stories are just as good as the BGs. BIO has done nothing but improved in their game making ability since they started and its shown by their continued to success. Afterall, if they had gotten worse, they would have died already.

 

DA? Story?

 

Ahahahahahaha, funny joke.

In my opinion PST wasn't good anyway, I was unable to play through it as I disliked the main character to begin with

[Zoraptor]

On another note, be thankfull that Bioware is trying something different with their games each time, the old EA was infamous for spouting out sequels that were thinly disguised as the same game - year after year after year.

I think a number of people would argue that the changes to DA2 are basically making it Dragon Effect/ Mass Age* which is hardly something different- consolidating everything into the Mass Effect Model 'RPG' and going from two fairly distinct products to one gestalt line.

 

*hoho, the second one is a euphemism for prostitution I'm unintentionally witty, haha.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Zoraptor

[Wrath of Dagon]

A little anecdote to start with:

 

If you go Wade's Emporium in Denerim in DA:Origins, you'll meet Wade and Herren. At one time, Wade complains that he wishes he'd still have the time to make quality products - like he used to. (I know, the comment is meant to be for armors, but still). Herren then replies with something like: 'the customers needs to get his armour in time, not years after, like....'. I also find this one rather telling; Herren says to Wade: 'and you'll still be eating gruel' or something like that.

 

I've taken this as a comment on the whole quality vs. quantity debate, or maybe even a comment on EA and Bioware's relations-ship? Although that might be stretching it a bit....

Hmm, that's quite perceptive of you, I never thought of that. They may indeed be commenting on changes within Bioware over time.

 

I think the problem with Bioware is after Erection Partners bought them, it became all about profits. I'm pretty sure I remember them talking about crafting games with love before that, but you never hear it now, it's all factory assembled for the least common denominator. Plus it seems like they spread themselves too thin with all these different projects, the KOTOR team has been split at least 3 ways, there just doesn't seem to be enough creative critical mass.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[Volourn]

"I think the problem with Bioware is after Erection Partners bought them, it became all about profits. I'm pretty sure I remember them talking about crafting games with love before that, but you never hear it now, it's all factory assembled for the least common denominator. Plus it seems like they spread themselves too thin with all these different projects, the KOTOR team has been split at least 3 ways, there just doesn't seem to be enough creative critical mass. "

 

It's always been about both. nothing has changed. And, they still disucss the love of crafting games as much as they ever have. And, they have been creative. In fact, people crap on them every time they get 'creative' and make changes. And, people crap on them when they maintain status quo. People will crap on them no matter what. That's life. BIO has hundreds of employees so I doubt they're that spread thin espicially when they got EA backing them up now as well.

[Morgoth]

Bioware released it's two best games under the wings of EA. Of course that's not attributed to the EA acquisition, but the fact that Bioware constantly releases better games. For the most time, at least.

[sorophx]

Volo, you're obviously a being from another world. the land of rainbows and unicorns maybe

[Volourn]

I speak the truth. You do not.

[Oner]

Sigged, your Delusion trait has leveled up.

[Volourn]

Are you trying to claim that I am *really* from another world? And, I'm the one who is delusional? L0LLIGAGZ!

 

p.s. Did you notice the poster above who who believes BIO's best two games are recent ones? Is he delusional too? HA!

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

L0LLIGAGZ!

 

Hmm, this volo expression seems new. Clearly his ridiculous words trait has also leveled up.

[Tigranes]

It's not as good as his original ones, though. I think its part of a money-grubbing DLC pack.

[WorstUsernameEver]

It's not as good as his original ones, though. I think its part of a money-grubbing DLC pack.

 

After he was bought by EA he was never the same.

[Raithe]

On a totally random tangent that's flipping back to DA:O ...

 

Alistair as King.. has gone through the Joining and as such, is going to suffer through the whole.. Warden's don't reach old age, and generally have to kill themselves off because the darkspawn blood causes them to 'change'. Relating to that, was there any lore mentioned as to how having gone through the Joining will effect any future kids you have?

I mean.. as King he's got to get some heirs in or there's all sorts of trouble for the monarchy...

 

Or was that point totally skipped over?

 

Of course, with DA 2 stretching out to a 10 year time frame post DA:O events.. it's possible that is something that could turn up in the background story.. the King's son/daughter being affected in some strange way ...

[WorstUsernameEver]

On a totally random tangent that's flipping back to DA:O ...

 

Alistair as King.. has gone through the Joining and as such, is going to suffer through the whole.. Warden's don't reach old age, and generally have to kill themselves off because the darkspawn blood causes them to 'change'. Relating to that, was there any lore mentioned as to how having gone through the Joining will effect any future kids you have?

I mean.. as King he's got to get some heirs in or there's all sorts of trouble for the monarchy...

 

Or was that point totally skipped over?

 

I think David Gaider pointed out in the forum posts on the Dragon Age boards that

Morrigan tried the Dark Ritual with a newly-joined Order, because the more time one passes as a Warden, the less chances one has to produce an offspring

. He also mentioned that the chances for two Wardens to have a baby are exceptionally low.

[Volourn]

"Hmm, this volo expression seems new."

 

Ancient.

 

 

 

"It's not as good as his original ones, though. I think its part of a money-grubbing DLC pack."

 

"After he was bought by EA he was never the same."

 

R00fles!

[Thorton_AP]

In that interview Mike Laidlaw says that you find out that the country is on the brink of war, and we find out what choices your character made to get there.

 

So, whatever choices you make at the end the country is at the brink of war. QED, Bioware's concept of choice.

 

It worked for Alpha Protocol.

 

But hey, if "I know a part of the ending" is equivalent to "there's no choice in the game at all" then that's your perogative.

 

 

Maybe you've had your blinders on for a while now, but you do realize that in every BioWare game (and arguably any game), any choices you get to make are just the ones that the designers let you make.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Thorton_AP