Ukraine Conflict - "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

[Malcador]

35 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

The member of Crimean Tatar indigenous minority Rustam Umerov, might become the new Minister of Defense of Ukraine.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/09/5/7418546/

the Mejlis of Crimean Tatars strongly support his appointment by Zelenskyi.

As a political move, sort of picking low hanging fruit.  Reznikov wasn't very popular though, it seems. Is just one account but Hauer's reporting has been good (rare person that gives a toss about Armenia)

https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/status/1698458192575877435

[BruceVC]

46 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

This is the incident all my Russian in-laws reference though the facts, as I've been able to find them, don't match up with their claims. Another thing they use as justification is the conflict on the border that never really stopped since 2014 though that makes even less sense.

Im going to guess but knowing you I imagine you stay of the your in-laws views and opinions of the war, thats just prudent and makes sense in the interest of maintaining a respectful and peaceful relationship?

I have mentioned this before but I dont generally engage or dispute any political or ideological views with my extended family members. My close family yes but not  for example one of my bothers wife's family. And I also put religion and certain SJ  issues in that camp

There are so many other constructive and happy  things to talk about, for me its not  worth getting into  arguments when I am  not going to change there opinion anyway 

 

[pmp10]

Latest RUSI report on the Ukrainian offensive.
Mostly tactical details but can still be informative. 

[Sarex]

1 hour ago, ShadySands said:

This is the incident all my Russian in-laws reference though the facts, as I've been able to find them, don't match up with their claims.

How so? I'm pretty interested.

[xzar_monty]

2 minutes ago, Sarex said:

How so? I'm pretty interested.

Same here.

I'm currently working on a project that has something to do with the whole conflict, but not this one particular incident, and there's this damned thing that surrounds so many things around the area right now: there tend to be narratives that are so different from one another that they are apt to confuse the observer. It's really frustrating. I mean, it's not possible that all the Russian stories are false/true and all the Ukrainian stories true/false, but separating the facts from the embellishments and the outright propaganda and lies can be really tricky. It's a real mess.

[ShadySands]

From everything I've found on what happened, the pro-Russian counter-protesters attacked the anti-Russian protesters then things escalated from there with 48 dead (46 pro-Russians). Not saying it's not a tragedy but that's hardly indicative of Ukraine trying to wipe out its Russian population, especially when there were Russians and Ukrainians on both sides of it. The way my in-laws described it was they burned down a building full of Russians just because, when the reports say the fighting ended up there after the anti-Russians rallied and destroyed their camp after the attack. They were shooting and throwing Molotov ****tails at each other and that is supposedly how the fire started, though which side exactly started the fire is debated in the sources I've seen. I don't know what the police were doing this whole time but there were reports they let the initial attacks happen and then just stood by. I'll see if I can find some non-Wiki links but I looked into this last year at some point so the details aren't all fresh in my mind. Also, I don't read Ukrainian or Russian so my wife was translating some of the articles for me, but before she did she was also very much what about that building they burned down, and that stopped immediately after she started looking into it, not that she ever thought the war was justified.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by ShadySands

[Sarex]

I mean there being anti-Russian protests in the first place does not paint a good picture. I also find it convenient that the pro-Russian attacked first and subsequently all died. I've seen this exact thing happen before, I have absolutely no trust in the news sources from any side and can see that this war was planned and pushed for.

On the one hand I hope it blows up in the face of the forces behind it, but on the other hand I do not because that would be a shortcut to disaster.

[ShadySands]

It's technically pro-Maidan and anti-Maidan and they didn't all die, the vast majority survived the incident. I used anti-Russian to mean they want to be part of the West and not under the Russian sphere of influence anymore. Though I'm sure there are plenty of those that are racist against all Russians, especially now. 

There are a lot of sketchy and questionable things about the incident, even on the wiki page.

49 minutes ago, Sarex said:

no trust in the news sources from any side and can see that this war was planned and pushed for.

When people want to kill each other there isn't much that you can do to stop them

[Sarex]

8 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

It's technically pro-Maidan and anti-Maidan and they didn't all die, the vast majority survived the incident. I used anti-Russian to mean they want to be part of the West and not under the Russian sphere of influence anymore. Though I'm sure there are plenty of those that are racist against all Russians, especially now. 

There are a lot of sketchy and questionable things about the incident, even on the wiki page.

When people want to kill each other there isn't much that you can do to stop them

I don't know why I wrote all, I meant disproportionately the pro Russian side had died. Either way, I am not defending the Russian side, my original point was that Ukraine is not innocent in this either.

11 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

When people want to kill each other there isn't much that you can do to stop them

Especially with foreign influences stocking the fires.

[Zoraptor]

BBC source claims the Challenger was destroyed (or 'heavily damaged' in the same article, just 'damaged' in the earlier article) by a Lancet after an engine fire from a mine. Either of which would be a bit embarrassing- the HEAT versions of the Lancet aren't exactly massive and smaller than almost all ATGM ones and the normal AT warhead is a bog standard shaped charge, plus you'd surely have your valuable tank on a cleared path or following another vehicle precisely to avoid mines. Most Russian sources claim Krasnopol (laser guided artillery) instead and that seems far more likely- and better for the Challenger 2 as well.

7 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

Are those all nazi states? Or are they all support nazis?

None of those have anything near the official recognition Ukraine gives Bandera, not even close. That's the difference: the Bandera worship is sanctioned- to practical purposes often actively encouraged- by the Ukrainian government at multiple levels. While you'll find, for example, British nazis you'll never get Dishy Rishy or Sadiq Khan renaming Park Lane to Oswald Moseley Boulevarde* nor will you find British Union of Fascists flags adorning war cemeteries in roughly 50:50 proportion to English/ Union Flags. There may be a few nazi tattoos and patches in the armed forces but not many and you'd also expect anyone found with them to be drummed out pdq. That certainly happened to one idiot here.

*just Oliver Cromwell, Winston Churchill, Robert Clive, Cecil Rhodes...

[Malcador]

The Challenger getting wrecked is real news, I guess it's a slow day - https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/09/05/ukraine-has-lost-its-first-challenger-2-tank/?sh=1076a28c65f9

Not even sure who that piece is written for, people panicking over one tank ?

[xzar_monty]

8 hours ago, Sarex said:

I have absolutely no trust in the news sources from any side and can see that this war was planned and pushed for.

Planned and pushed for by Russia, absolutely, ever since 2014 and before. As Putin has long maintained, the collapse of the Soviet Union was the "greatest geopolitical disaster"[*] of the 20th century, and both Belarus and Ukraine are his attempts to bring the empire back. With Belarus, he has effectively succeeded, but with Ukraine, not. Hungary remains something of a mystery, at least to me. I wonder if anyone anywhere has a good answer that has been made public.

 

[*] I would argue that it's quite obvious that the greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century was the formation of the Soviet Union. Very, very little good ever became of that, and nothing good at all compared to all the death and disaster it created. The EU, while "mostly harmless", to quote one D. Adams, is not geopolitically all that important, but it's not all that deadly, either.

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, Sarex said:

I mean there being anti-Russian protests in the first place does not paint a good picture. I also find it convenient that the pro-Russian attacked first and subsequently all died. I've seen this exact thing happen before, I have absolutely no trust in the news sources from any side and can see that this war was planned and pushed for.

On the one hand I hope it blows up in the face of the forces behind it, but on the other hand I do not because that would be a shortcut to disaster.

But if you dont trust news sources from any side where do you get any information from? I assume you must reference some news sources unless you relying on forums like this for updates which I wouldn't recommend. Rather use a forum like this for confirmation or additional information but you  should generally  do your own research first 

[BruceVC]

43 minutes ago, Malcador said:

The Challenger getting wrecked is real news, I guess it's a slow day - https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/09/05/ukraine-has-lost-its-first-challenger-2-tank/?sh=1076a28c65f9

Not even sure who that piece is written for, people panicking over one tank ?

You sure seem interested in this development so I guess its big news for  some? 

[xzar_monty]

30 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Rather use a forum like this for confirmation or additional information but you  should generally  do your own research first 

I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but "do your own research" is a very unfortunate turn of phrase because it is generally used by conspiracy theorists and such, i.e. people who tend not to be able to do any kind of proper research and who have a tremendous confirmation bias and tend to confuse things like correlation and causation and may not be able to apply much logic to their thinking, either.

[Lexx]

I did read about it on facebook, that counts as research, right?

[xzar_monty]

There's the joke about how, if the truth tends to be "somewhere in the middle", then it would follow that if a mathematician asserts that 2+2=4 and a fullblown crackpot says that assuming a holistically ample value to the number 2 we get that 2+2=22, then it would actually mean that 2+2=13. This, surprisingly, is how journalism sometimes works, which is a crying shame.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but "do your own research" is a very unfortunate turn of phrase because it is generally used by conspiracy theorists and such, i.e. people who tend not to be able to do any kind of proper research and who have a tremendous confirmation bias and tend to confuse things like correlation and causation and may not be able to apply much logic to their thinking, either.

No I didnt know that and thats not how I meant it

For me what " do your own research " means you have multiple sources of information about a subject. And that includes different media sources and also Internet sources. And then you can include lived experiences and books but  it depends on the subject 

Im not suggesting every time someone has on opinion on something they need to reference all those types of mediums 

Im saying there is lots of credible sources of information in the world but to say " I dont trust  any news source " worries me because where does a person get there information from?

 

[xzar_monty]

12 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

No I didnt know that and thats not how I meant it

Ok, fair enough then! In any case, it's a common phrase these days, generally used in ways and contexts not exactly conducive to gaining more proper information.

Check this out, for reference: https://thinkingispower.com/the-problem-with-doing-your-own-research/

[BruceVC]

4 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Ok, fair enough then! In any case, it's a common phrase these days, generally used in ways and contexts not exactly conducive to gaining more proper information.

Check this out, for reference: https://thinkingispower.com/the-problem-with-doing-your-own-research/

Thanks, I have bookmarked that link and its interesting. I am going to stop using the words " do your own research " because I can see how it can be  misunderstood  because I dont question things like established and confirmed science or economic data and thats definitely not what I meant 

 

 

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, Malcador said:

The Challenger getting wrecked is real news, I guess it's a slow day - https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/09/05/ukraine-has-lost-its-first-challenger-2-tank/?sh=1076a28c65f9

Not even sure who that piece is written for, people panicking over one tank ?

Quite apart from some emotional bargaining ('apparently destroyed') he also manages to get at least two things factually wrong, which is impressive for a short article. The Challenger 2 does not have blow out panels. The previously destroyed one actually deturreted due to ammo cook off (see below), though not spectacularly. Then again, fricking massive/ heavy turret to be lifted at all and a pretty significant fraction of a T-72s entire weight; and blowout panels don't protect Leopards when the ready use rack is hit.

They'd also lost 7 Leo2s per Oryx at the time of publication, not 5. He forgot the mineroller last article as well.

David Axe writes for clicks, his target audience is people wanting reassurance that everything is OK. To be fair, he is at least far more rational about it than others.

[Malcador]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

You sure seem interested in this development so I guess its big news for  some? 

Barely counts a development though, was just amusing to come across when skimming a Reddit thread full of people who spend too much time following the war.

[bugarup]

Love when politicians crack jokes about botox baboon. 

 

[Mamoulian War]

On 9/6/2023 at 6:24 AM, xzar_monty said:

Planned and pushed for by Russia, absolutely, ever since 2014 and before. As Putin has long maintained, the collapse of the Soviet Union was the "greatest geopolitical disaster"[*] of the 20th century, and both Belarus and Ukraine are his attempts to bring the empire back. With Belarus, he has effectively succeeded, but with Ukraine, not. Hungary remains something of a mystery, at least to me. I wonder if anyone anywhere has a good answer that has been made public.

 

[*] I would argue that it's quite obvious that the greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century was the formation of the Soviet Union. Very, very little good ever became of that, and nothing good at all compared to all the death and disaster it created. The EU, while "mostly harmless", to quote one D. Adams, is not geopolitically all that important, but it's not all that deadly, either.

Hungary has it’s own ambitions. Orban is very vocal about pre-Trianon treaty Hungary borders. He is a person, who thinks, that the Trianon treaty is the greatest geopolitical disaster, and he is actively doing politics to increase Hungarian influence in all of their neighbor states. Him being Putin’s lapdog is definitely a way, how he hopes to get Zakarpatya incorporated into Hungary, in case of UA defeat. 
 

His intervention in neighboring states is from Passportification, through buying out cultural properties and supporting pro-hungarian politicians. His latest one is to release migrants, which he was holding at Hungary for years into Slovakia, as our elections will be held at 30.9.2023. This way he wants to interfere with our elections, to make sure his allies, neonazi Republika, nationalist SNS and cleptocratic Smer, which are basing their election campaign on spreading Russia propaganda as well, will steamroll the election and form new government. The endgoal for this, is to destabilize us enough to hope, that one day, south Slovak hungarians would want to join Hungary. For this he is also paying a lot of trolls, who are spreading in our online space pro-Orban propaganda as well based on how he is the only one, who protects European values in “filthy pro-LGBT” Europe…

[majestic]

On 9/6/2023 at 6:20 AM, Malcador said:

The Challenger getting wrecked is real news

Really, after almost 40 years?

Yeah, I'll get my coat.