Ukraine Conflict - "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

[xzar_monty]

8 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

But you dont see that, we find endless justification and whatoutabism from people who support Russia like the 3 big N lies

Possibly, but what I would like to see, now, is a cogent and well-rounded argument from Sarex as to why Ukraine is not innocent in this war. What, perhaps, are some of the grounds that justify Russia's attack. In concrete terms and not in metaphors; and if the building that was set on fire was not a metaphor, then I'd like to know what that was about.

Ukraine, as a country, is probably much farther away from EU membership than Serbia and some other countries that have wanted to join, and it carries an awful lot of bad baggage from the Soviet era. Zelenski himself has some fairly shady stuff in his past, and so on. But none of that would in any way justify an invasion whose intention is to obliterate a sovereign nation.

(Btw, isn't Ukraine the only country so far that has voluntarily given up its nuclear weapons? I think it is. What an awful precedent that one is.)

[bugarup]

44 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Apparently setting fire to a building full of Russian civilians.

Can you be a little more specific please, because I can't quite remember anything of that sort either on February 2014 or 2022.  And speaking of setting fire to a building full of Russian civilians - 19 years and 2 days ago there happened Beslan school siege, where russian army set a building full of Russian mostly small civilians on fire to demonstrate the world that russia stronk!!! and can one-up terrorists without anyone's help. Unfortunately, that horror did not make russia to declare war on itself. 

[Zoraptor]

Odessa Trade Union Hall fire (of 2014), presumably.

27 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Could be 70 RPGs that weren't armed.  You'd think a tank crew or other commanders would get binned for getting into a situation where 70 AT weapons were fired at you. 

You'd need some pretty specific conditions to have 70 unarmed warheads hit. The arming distance isn't that far, nor is reliability that bad. Then again, the only way the 70 claim was remotely feasible would be if they lined up to fire only at the frontal armour, or weren't using AT rounds. Or were ww2 era Panzerfausts or...

But really, the 70 claim was always a load of bollocks and about as credible as any other obvious propaganda puff piece. And yes, dreadfully designed tank with awful visibility andor incredibly poorly utilised if the enemy is hitting it 70 times.

 

[Malcador]

53 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Not really, thats not what most people expect when you have opinion on the invasion. This gets repeated but its not accurate

What most people who support Ukraine would assume is ideological consistency and the same level of outrage we witnessed when the US invaded Iraq. Remember the whole " the US lied and invaded a country, bad warmongering US " !!!!

But you dont see that, we find endless justification and whatoutabism from people who support Russia like the 3 big N lies

I dont think anyone on this forum is like that but its exists on places like Codex

 

 

Yes Bruce we get it, you read the Codex.  But haven't seen endless justification from Sarex and whataboutism is something a lot here don't have an accurate view of.  Bringing the US' past actions up isn't that if you're pointing out how bull**** their moralizing is, after all.

Just is funny to see that accusation pop up, I guess xzar_monty is an Inquisitor.

[Gfted1]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

I'd love to hear a convincing argument for this.

Elementary, my dear xzar. Nazi's, nazi's everywhere.

[Malcador]

50 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Btw, isn't Ukraine the only country so far that has voluntarily given up its nuclear weapons? I think it is. What an awful precedent that one is.)

Given the practical concerns of their keeping them,  I wouldn't class it as voluntary. 

[xzar_monty]

6 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Elementary, my dear xzar. Nazi's, nazi's everywhere.

I actually tried to come up with a Coleridgean way to continue that but couldn't think of anything good enough.

Anyway, the nazi argument is an interesting one, as it's one of those cases where the mere suspicion of something amounts to proof, which is always troublesome as it's so close to paranoid thinking. (And no, this is definitely not in reference to Sarex who hasn't brought up the nazi card as far as I know.)

[BruceVC]

22 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Elementary, my dear xzar. Nazi's, nazi's everywhere.

And dont forget fascists, fascists everywhere ..hey @majestic 

[Malcador]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ukraine-leopard-tanks-spare-parts-1.6953968

"It's been quite a quagmire on multiple fronts, unfortunately," he said. "Personally, I thought that the war in Ukraine would actually make all these people a bit more solution-oriented in their thinking, because it's a war at our doorstep."

Kind of naive for a defense expert, really.

[Zoraptor]

The Nazism isn't really suspicion. Ukraine's fetishisation of the OUN/ UPA is pretty blatant, and they were, well, nazis. Despite a pretty concerted attempt to launder their image.

No one forced Ukraine to name so many streets after Stepan Bandera, no one forced them to have so many UPA flags in their cemeteries (that's the red and black ones that just about outnumber the official Ukrainian ones in the top photo) and no one forced so many of their guys to do nazi salutes, wear nazi regalia or get nazi tattoos. No one forced them to integrate Azov into their army either. Those were all choices. Just imagine Germany with multiple- literally dozens of- Adolf Hitler Strasses, swastika flags outnumbering official tricolours, totemkopf/ SS/ sonnenrad etc patches and tattoos... wouldn't be much doubt then, eh?

There's always a certain amount of nazism in any country's armies but Ukraine's has... considerably more than most.

(UPA's favourite modus operandi was bailing up civilians in buildings and setting them on fire, eg Wola Ostrowiecka and Ostrowki Massacres. Which was, of course, the same method used in Odessa by Right Sector and pals. Also ironic, all those anti fascists on reddit and twitter with their Slava Ukraini/ Heroiam Slava's are- quite literally and verbatim- parroting the UPA's slogan)

I don't think anyone with any sense thinks Russia invaded because of the nazism, but just because it's a Russian talking point doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

43 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Given the practical concerns of their keeping them,  I wouldn't class it as voluntary. 

They were also never usable by Ukraine, but in any case if you're going to count Ukraine specifically for that then you also have to count Belarus and Kazakhstan as well. Belarus especially tends to get forgotten about, because in that case it's been the west abrogating the Budapest Memorandum and the Rules Based Order (but of course only with the best of intentions).

If the question is which country gave up its nuclear weapons voluntarily the answer is:

Spoiler

South Africa

 

[Chilloutman]

USA

CZ (apparently - hard to say)

UK

Nazi in Russia

- Mongolian Nazis

 

Are those all nazi states? Or are they all support nazis? Because that would mean Russia have a lot of work ahead of them (maybe after they murder half of their own population first)

Edited September 5, 2023 by Chilloutman

[xzar_monty]

5 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

Are those all nazi states? Or are they all support nazis? Because that would mean Russia have a lot of work ahead of them (maybe after they murder half of their own population first)

Nope -- but you're ignoring Zoraptor's main point which was that although nazism exists everywhere, in Ukraine it is more prevalent than in many other places. As far as I know, this is, indeed a valid argument and doesn't really improve Ukraine's standing, so to speak.

[Chilloutman]

8 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Nope -- but you're ignoring Zoraptor's main point which was that although nazism exists everywhere, in Ukraine it is more prevalent than in many other places. As far as I know, this is, indeed a valid argument and doesn't really improve Ukraine's standing, so to speak.

While I would agree that Bendera was nazi or nazi symphatizer and is still venerated as hero for many Ukraine people he kinda was hero for fighting against bolsheviks. Now that I don't agree with horrors he did but the reason why people still like him is kinda understandable especially after decades of commie brutalism Ukraine recieved including pogroms and famine. Also I don't think they are somehow extremely represented by Ukraine government.

 

Anyway this whole debate is moot. Everyone with 2 braincells knows Russia didn't invaded because there are nazis in Ukraine.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Chilloutman

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Nope -- but you're ignoring Zoraptor's main point which was that although nazism exists everywhere, in Ukraine it is more prevalent than in many other places. As far as I know, this is, indeed a valid argument and doesn't really improve Ukraine's standing, so to speak.

Whats the difference between Neo-Nazi groups in Russia and Ukraine,  from a Russian war propaganda perspective why would you want to denazify one country but be fine with the same groups within your own country? Putin is fine with Neo-Nazi when they support him and his autocracy. Here is a good link that discusses this reality in Russia 

https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2022/opinion/russias-long-history-of-neo-nazis

[kanisatha]

3 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

(Btw, isn't Ukraine the only country so far that has voluntarily given up its nuclear weapons? I think it is. What an awful precedent that one is.)

Belarus and Kazakstan also inherited nukes from the USSR and gave them up. The only country to voluntarily give up nukes it had developed was South Africa.

[xzar_monty]

14 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

Anyway this whole debate is moot. Everyone with 2 braincells knows Russia didn't invaded because there are nazis in Ukraine.

Oh, absolutely. And I don't think anyone here has ever suggested that any Ukrainian nazis were the reason for the invasion. That still doesn't take away the fact that Ukraine's history with this particular question isn't especially rosy.

[xzar_monty]

1 minute ago, kanisatha said:

Belarus and Kazakstan also inherited nukes from the USSR and gave them up. The only country to voluntarily give up nukes it had developed was South Africa.

See? I'm terrible with most things related to military matters. So thanks (to Zoraptor, too).

[Mamoulian War]

8 hours ago, Sarex said:

What support? Either way how would supporting anyone here help?

What was the first?

Molotow-Ribbentrop Pact.

 

oh, was to late to the party.

 

but Poland and Ukraine was not only two countries affected by it. Romania, Latvia, Estonia, Slovakia, Lithuania have all been affected by Soviet “liberations” before 1941, when the pact has been dissolved.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, kanisatha said:

Belarus and Kazakstan also inherited nukes from the USSR and gave them up. The only country to voluntarily give up nukes it had developed was South Africa.

And that was really because of the worry with nukes falling into the hands of the ANC and unfounded fears that they would use them in some sort of Communist or other extreme way. So SA only got rid of nukes because of concerns with the new untested leadership. I can understand the concern even if it was unnecessary 

Edited September 5, 2023 by BruceVC

[Mamoulian War]

4 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

 

(Btw, isn't Ukraine the only country so far that has voluntarily given up its nuclear weapons? I think it is. What an awful precedent that one is.)

And as an exchange, USA and Russia has agreed to guarantee the 1991 borders. And as always, to no ones suprise (with the exception of western left wing), Putin shat all over any agreement it has ever signed

[Mamoulian War]

Oh and Cuba is not very happy that Russia is trying to get Cubans into their conquest campaign.

 

[Mamoulian War]

58 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Nope -- but you're ignoring Zoraptor's main point which was that although nazism exists everywhere, in Ukraine it is more prevalent than in many other places. As far as I know, this is, indeed a valid argument and doesn't really improve Ukraine's standing, so to speak.

Well, in contrast to most of the western countries, they do not have any nazis present in their parliament, so that argument is pretty weak, especially when compared to Russia, where Putin himself awards nazis day and night with highest state awards  

[ShadySands]

4 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Odessa Trade Union Hall fire (of 2014)

This is the incident all my Russian in-laws reference though the facts, as I've been able to find them, don't match up with their claims. Another thing they use as justification is the conflict on the border that never really stopped since 2014 though that makes even less sense.

Edited September 5, 2023 by ShadySands

[Mamoulian War]

The member of Crimean Tatar indigenous minority Rustam Umerov, might become the new Minister of Defense of Ukraine.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/09/5/7418546/

the Mejlis of Crimean Tatars strongly support his appointment by Zelenskyi.

[kanisatha]

35 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

And as an exchange, USA and Russia has agreed to guarantee the 1991 borders. And as always, to no ones suprise (with the exception of western left wing), Putin shat all over any agreement it has ever signed

Yes, the Minsk Agreement of 1991, which was signed by all five of the NPT nuclear states and also approved by a UNSC resolution.