Ukraine Conflict - "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

[Azdeus]

7 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

The indifference accusation is incredibly rich, really. I'd bet most people aren't even aware what the conflict is that has killed the most people in the 21st century- it isn't Iraq, or Syria, or Ukraine. The only way the vast majority of people would notice would (have) be(en) if the the coltan spigot had got turned off and their iPhones started costing $100 more.

It's hard to make people aware of something when there is an information blackout though. Iraq, Syria and Ukraine had/has loads of images and videos come out, journalists weren't being kept out of the area and kept it in the news cycle. And people seem to not read news anymore as much as watch it, and a talking head with scant few still images is less likely to draw attention(Or views if you want to be crass) compared to the barrage that you can get from other places. Same thing with Chinas genocides, not considering that any real action against Poohs actions are likely to quadruple the price of said iphones.

[BruceVC]

You should create a DRC thread but it wont be very well supported and there wont be much interest. Because its an African conflict and  if the AU is indifferent and lacks the political will to fix its own problems you cant realistically expect people in Western countries to meaningfully get involved or to really care on a forum like this 

@Azdeus there is no media  black out with what has been going on in the DRC, its well documented and there are  numerous stories about the decades of  sectarian violence and abuse in Cobalt mining that are owned  mostly by the Chinese. International media houses have filmed some of this abuse and there are documentaries about it 

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2212037120

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/12/mining-of-cobalt-copper-in-drc-leading-to-human-rights-abuses-report

But I dont want to blame the Chinese because its well known if the government of a country doesnt enforce basic labor laws then the Chinese arent going to do it. And the mines that operate in the DRC dont operate illegally, the government of the DRC is aware of them and they should be the  ones insisting on humane work conditions 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

Here is an informative video of how effectively UK Storm Shadow missiles are being used, always interesting to see how the Russians deny  successful targeting of there infrastructure 

[Malcador]

8 hours ago, BruceVC said:

You should create a DRC thread but it wont be very well supported and there wont be much interest. Because its an African conflict and  if the AU is indifferent and lacks the political will to fix its own problems you cant realistically expect people in Western countries to meaningfully get involved or to really care on a forum like this 

@Azdeus there is no media  black out with what has been going on in the DRC, its well documented and there are  numerous stories about the decades of  sectarian violence and abuse in Cobalt mining that are owned  mostly by the Chinese. International media houses have filmed some of this abuse and there are documentaries about it 

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2212037120

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/12/mining-of-cobalt-copper-in-drc-leading-to-human-rights-abuses-report

But I dont want to blame the Chinese because its well known if the government of a country doesnt enforce basic labor laws then the Chinese arent going to do it. And the mines that operate in the DRC dont operate illegally, the government of the DRC is aware of them and they should be the  ones insisting on humane work conditions 

 

 

 

 

Not sure said thread would be that popular, given he was referring to the Second Congo War.  Interesting requirements to care though, one is being on the continent and two is only if a regional organization does.

[BruceVC]

35 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Not sure said thread would be that popular, given he was referring to the Second Congo War.  Interesting requirements to care though, one is being on the continent and two is only if a regional organization does.

Well there is still ongoing violence  and sectarian conflict within the DRC and part of it is about resources

And if people on this forum do have an interest  about the numerous and ongoing conflicts in Africa why dont we talk about it? You tell me 

[Malcador]

The latest tiff with Poland and Ukraine was amusing - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66873495

For a laugh, here's the Telegraph's take on it- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/21/poland-weapons-grain-ukraine-putin/ . 

Been walked back already by Poland though.  Ukrainian officials seem to not really know their place in things, though, still trying this shaming as a motivator.

[Malcador]

48 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

And if people on this forum do have an interest  about the numerous and ongoing conflicts in Africa why dont we talk about it? You tell me 

As Zoraptor predicted.  Well, some do, I have posted stuff about the Tigray conflict (think that still tops Ukraine for body count) although I don't follow news as much as I should. 

[HoonDing]

Guess there'll be more "accidental" bombings of Polish villages.

[BruceVC]

1 minute ago, Malcador said:

As Zoraptor predicted.  Well, some do, I have posted stuff about the Tigray conflict (think that still tops Ukraine for body count) although I don't follow news as much as I should. 

This has nothing to do with Zora and Im also not criticizing anyone or trying to shame anyone . I am pointing out the reasons that people dont really care\have an interest in conflicts in Africa is because you dont live in Africa and you dont have any political or ideological connection to the various conflicts in Africa

Its expected and normal. And there will be much more interest in the Ukraine war from the West and the world   because people have ethnic, historical  and geographical ties to that war and it impacts much of the world around the things like the  grain deal and energy 

[pmp10]

Russia has resumed strikes on Ukrainian energy infrastructure.
This likely buries any chances for near-term diplomacy.

 

[Lexx]

Not that there was any to begin with.

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, pmp10 said:

Russia has resumed strikes on Ukrainian energy infrastructure.
This likely buries any chances for near-term diplomacy.

Doubt strikes on infrastructure mean much in that regard. If anything it's more leverage- see NATO switching to destroying Yugoslav infrastructure in 1999, which ended up working when destroying military targets failed.

There's been plenty of back room diplomacy going on without being (much) publicised anyway and that's unlikely to stop. Though how much either side actually wants a solution at this point is a very open question.

5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Its expected and normal. And there will be much more interest in the Ukraine war from the West and the world   because people have ethnic, historical  and geographical ties to that war and it impacts much of the world around the things like the  grain deal and energy 

Meh, the point is pretty obvious. Sure, people in the west don't care about Congo because it's in Africa and far away and they face no consequences of it. There's no problems with that per se, that's just how people work*. If you spent your time crying for everyone in the world's conflicts you'd be quite literally perpetually devastated.

But if that's the argument you [general you, not specific] can't then turn around and throw a wobbly when someone a long way away doesn't care enough about Ukraine. If it's fine for Euros not to care much about a local conflict in far off Africa for those reasons then it's fine for someone outside Europe not to care much about a local conflict in far off Europe, for exactly the same reasons.

Indeed, given how much Europe/ the west has managed to asterisk up the rest of the world they're pretty lucky they aren't actively laughed at for crying when the boot is on the other foot, for once.

*and to be frank, indifference is far better than those forms of caring that are predominantly used just to make the 'carer' feel great about themselves for a bit- see #StopKony2012 (and yes he's still going, 11 years later) and most other kinds of slacktivism. In the end that's just getting your jollies from someone else's tragedy.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Zoraptor

[Chilloutman]

uhm, was world threatened by nukes in Congo conflict? 

[Zoraptor]

The only concrete fact around nukes is that the same number have been used in the Congo as in Ukraine, zero.

(it's actually a pretty good example of the fundamental problem Euros have convincing the rest of the world though. Obviously there's concern about nuclear weapons potentially being used and it's genuine, but try convincing someone in New Delhi that a purely hypothetical threat to some rich white people 5000 miles away should be a concern and you won't make much headway as you- basically- have to convince them both that it will happen and happen in such a way that it will effect them. Otherwise... I guess they might go as far as tweeting #StopPutler2023, for all the good that'd do)

[Malcador]

4 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

uhm, was world threatened by nukes in Congo conflict? 

World seems pretty indifferent to that possibility in Ukraine as well.

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

 

Meh, the point is pretty obvious. Sure, people in the west don't care about Congo because it's in Africa and far away and they face no consequences of it. There's no problems with that per se, that's just how people work*. If you spent your time crying for everyone in the world's conflicts you'd be quite literally perpetually devastated.

But if that's the argument you [general you, not specific] can't then turn around and throw a wobbly when someone a long way away doesn't care enough about Ukraine. If it's fine for Euros not to care much about a local conflict in far off Africa for those reasons then it's fine for someone outside Europe not to care much about a local conflict in far off Europe, for exactly the same reasons.

 

Yes  I agree and this is the point I was trying to make especially around geographical proximity and lack of identifying with any conflict 

But then I would expect to find that general indifference when there is any conflict that fits the same profile. And my point is not directed at this forum, Im talking about other examples of how some people have responded to the invasion of Ukraine compared to the invasion of Iraq by the US 

For example the ANC took a very " critical " view of the invasion of Iraq by the US and condemned it and basically  used the argument " its wrong to lie and invade a country. Invasions are wrong "...I can provide you the links with exactly what our president said at the time 

But they havent openly taken the same position  and instead used doublespeak like " we call for peace and for all parties to return to the negotiation party " and some have even gone as far as saying " the invasion is an example of the failure of the UNSC and why we need to transform the UNSC" 

But Russia sits on the UNSC and Im not sure how having an African country sitting on the UNSC as a permanent member  would have prevented this invasion especially when the Russians said they were doing a training exercise 

Edited September 22, 2023 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

And Blinken who moralizes here said Iraq was "tough diplomacy".  It's funny how full of crap everyone is.

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

But Russia sits on the UNSC and Im not sure how having an African country sitting on the UNSC as a permanent member  would have prevented this invasion

Yeah, not seeing that either. Zelensky said similar types of reforms, including some bonkers one that a veto can be overpowered by the GA.

Ukraine hit the Black Sea HQ today, too

[kanisatha]

13 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Yes  I agree and this is the point I was trying to make especially around geographical proximity and lack of identifying with any conflict 

But then I would expect to find that general indifference when there is any conflict that fits the same profile. And my point is not directed at this forum, Im talking about other examples of how some people have responded to the invasion of Ukraine compared to the invasion of Iraq by the US 

For example the ANC took a very " critical " view of the invasion of Iraq by the US and condemned it and basically  used the argument " its wrong to lie and invade a country. Invasions are wrong "...I can provide you the links with exactly what our president said at the time 

But they havent openly taken the same position  and instead used doublespeak like " we call for peace and for all parties to return to the negotiation party " and some have even gone as far as saying " the invasion is an example of the failure of the UNSC and why we need to transform the UNSC" 

But Russia sits on the UNSC and Im not sure how having an African country sitting on the UNSC as a permanent member  would have prevented this invasion especially when the Russians said they were doing a training exercise 

You are absolutely correct about this, and such people exist even here in the US. The US is indeed held to a very different standard (a double standard) than any other country in the world, and not just compared with countries like Russia and China but even other Western countries. But I will give some credit to those people who are at least honest about their double standard, even if the arguments they make to justify their double standard are complete B.S.

[Zoraptor]

15 hours ago, BruceVC said:

For example the ANC took a very " critical " view of the invasion of Iraq by the US and condemned it and basically  used the argument " its wrong to lie and invade a country. Invasions are wrong "...I can provide you the links with exactly what our president said at the time

Eh, it's obvious why the ANC takes that view though and we've been through it before. The US opposed them and labelled them terrorists- and in 2003 Nelson Mandela was still labelled one by the US- the Soviets (--> Russia) supported them. And from a non western perspective Iraq looked like blatant neocolonialism. You're never going to get much support for western imperial adventures from the prior victims of those adventures same as you aren't going to get Latvians cheerleading Putin any time soon but will get them cheerleading the US in Iraq.

(It's equally obvious why for a westerner when it's their sides doing things everything that goes wrong is an honest but tragic mistake, their precise strikes accidentally kill civilians cause collateral damage, and they only invade when threatened beyond limits to protect themselves and others in what were really selfless acts of purest Love and Compassion. Because otherwise you voted for leaders who are murderers and are by extension murderers yourself. Indeed, it's extremely funny when it's the same person saying how superior democracy is but disavowing any responsibility for it doing bad things yet also saying Russia's a dictatorship but its people are somehow responsible for their unelected tyrant)

[Keyrock]

I knew Zelenskyy was an entertainer before he became president but I didn't know he was a sorcerer. My man recently appeared in the crowd during a speech he was giving. Impressive and definitely NOT doctored footage they broadcast to the world.

/Volodymyr casts Mirror Image

Edited September 22, 2023 by Keyrock

[Malcador]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-ukraine-war-atacms-biden-zelenskyy-long-range-missile-rcna116876

Some ATACMS at last.  

[Mamoulian War]

Looks like UA hit Black Sea Fleet HQ during an important head honcho meeting and it is said that one admiral is dead and the General Romanchuk, who is responsible for the whole Zaporizhia frontline has been severly wounded. If true, this would be nice accomplishement of UA intelligence.

@xzar_monty any news around you about whereabouts of Kadyrov? After coma rumour there is absolute silence about him here. We did not even get the info about news about his death released by Chechen opposition, you’ve mentioned.

[Zoraptor]

Since I tend to make a note of these things so know anyway, Kadyrov's last telegram (well, not like I've checked today) was a couple of days ago and was of him visiting his uncle who is in a Moscow hospital. Kind of ironic if the whole thing was a mistake from people not being able to tell two Kadyrov's apart, though to be fair they do look pretty similar. Not independently dated, but it adequately explains all the signs people were quoting, like Chechen cars at the hospital.

Most of the major search engines will do a news search for 'Ramzan Kadyrov' absolutely fine.

[BruceVC]

On 9/22/2023 at 10:26 PM, Zoraptor said:

Eh, it's obvious why the ANC takes that view though and we've been through it before. The US opposed them and labelled them terrorists- and in 2003 Nelson Mandela was still labelled one by the US- the Soviets (--> Russia) supported them. And from a non western perspective Iraq looked like blatant neocolonialism. You're never going to get much support for western imperial adventures from the prior victims of those adventures same as you aren't going to get Latvians cheerleading Putin any time soon but will get them cheerleading the US in Iraq.

 

Yes but Russia is not the USSR and Ukraine was also part the USSR and helped certain  African countries in the liberation struggle including SA, so by that historical reason  Ukraine is also our friend 

But more important than that  the friendship that the ANC had with the USSR was during the Cold War, that cant be used to justify selective interpretations and condemnation of wars and invasions. The ANC official position  before the invasion was always basically " we condemn wars and invasions " but they havent condemned Russia like they condemned the US 

And what makes its worse is they flipflopped around the invasion, here is a link from the initial comments our foreign affairs minister made 

https://africatimes.com/2022/02/24/south-africa-calls-on-russia-to-withdraw-from-ukraine/#:~:text=“The Republic of South Africa is dismayed at,the Department of International Relations and Cooperation (DIRCO).

To quote " The South African government on Thursday called on Russia to immediately withdraw forces from Ukraine, becoming one of the first African nations to speak up on the matter outside of a global forum like the United Nations Security Council." 

Then she got into trouble and the message changed and it became " wars are wrong, we believe in peace and all parties need to return to the negotiation table " which is the safe thing to say and obvious but meaningless because what would be the expected  comment to make is for Russia to end the invasion. Then there would be immediate peace

Im also not disagreeing the ANC sensitivity to perceived colonial and neo-colonial developments but you need to consistent with your views as a government if you say you stand for something like peace or you anti-war and its not just Ukraine where there is this inconsistency 

And then on a side issue, some people in SA have a lack of interest in understanding the events of history and more importantly how they influenced SA and how Apartheid ended. There is now a fairly common view that " Mandela was a sellout and he betrayed the liberation movement " because he played a  huge part in the Codesa  negotiations from 1991-1994. Its outrageous and badly informed but it exists

Was Mandela a terrorist? He was a terrorist  by the technical definition but I dont consider him one because he was fighting against an illegitimate  and  deeply immoral system and the National Party was not interested in changing anything through negotiations so a violent struggle was inevitable for the likes of ANC 

But I dont consider him a terrorist because I only consider people as terrorists if they using  violence to change a legitimate system and Apartheid SA was not that 

Edited September 24, 2023 by BruceVC

[Mamoulian War]

Nah Bruce, Russia and China is never wrong, and only West is allowed to be criticized for double standards, due to our demand for cheap iPhones /s