The All Things Political Topic - Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation

[Keyrock]

I think both of the establishment political parties here in Murica are dumpster fires, they're just different types. The elephant one is an apartment complex type dumpster with the 2 sliding doors, one on each side, and the 2 plastic lids, now completely melted. There's a used mattress next to it that is now also on fire. The donkey one is the big 40 foot long open top dumpster that they drop off at a construction site. Someone threw some tires in there and thick black noxious fumes are coming off the top.

So, take your pick as to which fire you'd rather warm your hands on.

[Lexx]

Yeah, both parties suck, but one clearly sucks more than the other. Personally I think you people should finally allow more than 2 parties.

[Keyrock]

2 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Yeah, both parties suck, but one clearly sucks more than the other. Personally I think you people should finally allow more than 2 parties.

You don't need to convince me, I'm a registered libertarian.

[Hurlshort]

36 minutes ago, KP From Another World said:

I've never been to California, so I can't comment on what California is really like. But I can tell you that the conservative narrative on California has always been comically insane and shouldn't be taken seriously. That said, we've had a bunch of right-wing Californians roll in and gouge housing prices, so can yall take them back? I don't make enough to make LA rent.

Man, I know so many conservatives that have moved to Texas and Idaho in the last few years. The pandemic really expedited the whole "white" flight. It's comical because on the way out they love taking shots at California, but the reality is they were able to sell their houses for a million bucks and pocket a ton of equity because California gave them that opportunity. They are the definition of privilege. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

55 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

Man, I know so many conservatives that have moved to Texas and Idaho in the last few years. The pandemic really expedited the whole "white" flight. It's comical because on the way out they love taking shots at California, but the reality is they were able to sell their houses for a million bucks and pocket a ton of equity because California gave them that opportunity. They are the definition of privilege. 

I can believe that. My current job involves visiting lots of residences, a few months back I was replacing some breakers and the homeowner kept talking to me about how cheap houses were here and that he bought two for less than what he sold his house in California for. Like yeah bro, I can totally relate to selling a house for over a mil and using the cash to buy two with change to spare. Do these people have no real idea of what people actually make?

[Gfted1]

You should try to join the electricians union.

[Malcador]

Some plumbers and electricians I've spoken to do pretty well.  The dude that kept a couple thousand in a cash roll probably was doing some other side business, though.

[Gfted1]

They also have great benefits (medical/dental/vision/401k).

[Hurlshort]

9 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Some plumbers and electricians I've spoken to do pretty well.  The dude that kept a couple thousand in a cash roll probably was doing some other side business, though.

[Malcador]

1 minute ago, Hurlshort said:

I said business not consumption!

[Lexx]

Well, seems like the votes aren't turning out all that bad after all. At least not as bad as expected.

[Gromnir]

6 hours ago, Lexx said:

Yeah, both parties suck, but one clearly sucks more than the other. Personally I think you people should finally allow more than 2 parties.

 

6 hours ago, Keyrock said:

You don't need to convince me, I'm a registered libertarian.

...

am wondering if these two recognize the disconnect.

*shrug*

find any mention o' political parties in the Constitution. am gonna wait while absolutely none of you bother to look.

...

...

nobody who didn't look found anything 'bout parties, right?

we explained all this once when @Guard Dogwere going on one o' his soap box moments 'bout how 2016 national vote totals represented a new era for third parties, but it never sticks.

there is no US prohibition or codified limit on 3rd party participation at the state or local levels, 'cause that would violate first amendment and whatever 'cause most people ain't even read this far so am talking to maybe three people anyway. the thing is, for fed level elections in particular, is near impossible for third parties to develop a following because most states, on an individual basis, award electors/votes in a winner-take-all manner. if a libertarian and green party candidate each gain large % o' votes, but not more than the republican or democrat candidate, then they effective get nothing. have 25% o' people vote green party for a fed office candidate and the payoff ends up being nada, zilch, zero. the third party candidate needs an outright win over established parties to make inroads and that is a tough call. teddy Roosevelt ran against woodrow wilson as a third party candidate for President and lost in spite o' his national popularity and the kinda name recognition any modern third party candidate is unlikely to replicate. he failed as has every 3p Presidential candidate since the mid 1800s.

is why we keep telling gd that libertarian ack jassery as they flush money down the toilet every four years on Presidential candidates is unforgivable 'cause they got real chances to win at smaller local levels, but is the national stuff which in spite o' no mention o' a two-party system anywhere in the Constitution or fed laws makes it well-nigh impossible to win. 

ok, so there is no prohibition on 3rd parties, but let's for a moment assume most Americans were to agree that the current scheme so disadvantages a third party that something should be done to fix the problem. now what? what is your solution? will wait for responses am already knowing is not forthcoming 'cause at this point is maybe two people reading and am kinda talking to self. blah, blah, blah.

...

nobody?

the obvious problem is even if you got a national better than fifty% consensus that two parties is bad, the fed government don't have any power to change the situation and if they did try, such efforts would most certainly be declared unconstitutional. see, it does mention in the Constitution that states is in charge o' running their elections for fed offices, which is what led to the loggerheads situation 'tween trump and raffensperger down in georgia, yes? potus were trying to lean on a state elections official in the hope the he could change national results. trump showed time and again he were willing to break rules and laws, but for elections, there just weren't the fed apparatus necessary to steal an election. even trump's january 6 scheme were predicated on individual state legislatures overturning the results o' state election totals. furthermore, is not as if the current scheme is denying a person any other fed protected Constitutional right and it ain't as if ordinary people in kansas or california is prevented from changing their voting scheme if they so desire. in fact, is two states (nebraska and maine... go figure, eh?) which do not use winner-take-all, so is proof o' the possibility The People may choose other than the current scheme which favours two parties.

the US does not have a two party system in any meaningful sense. is no national apparatus or scheme o' laws which favour two parties over three or fifty. what we got is a situation wherein 48 states has decided, individually and beyond the scope o' fed interference, to adopt a winner-take-all and in so doing those states has collective made 3rd party national candidates somehwere 'twixt improbable and impossible.

didn't stick with gd, so am hardly optimistic anybody else has their misunderstandings corrected. regardless, it is possible at least one german could learn something today. call it a win.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Gromnir

[Lexx]

I know there is no prohibition of running more parties...... but fact is, 2 are dominating everything and nothing else has any chance to ever accomplish anything, and that's the problem.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Lexx

[Gromnir]

2 minutes ago, Lexx said:

I know there is no prohibition of running more parties

isn't what you said though, is it? 

and we explained why a magic wand approach to fixing your perceived problem is not a solution. is numerous libertarian and green party elected officials in the US, but is all local level positions. even if we get more than 50% o' americans to agree it is bad that there is gonna be not but the most infrequent 3p candidate running successful for Congress, and no chance whatsoever for President, then individual states need make changes similar to nebraska and maine. would be unconstitutional for Congress or a fed law to change the individual state voting schemes, so you need some high % o' the remaining 48 states to advance a change to what has been the norm for more than 100 years.

so again, more than two parties is allowed in spite o' your claim, and the solution has already been implemented in two states. is no real impediment to change save that americans don't want it in enough numbers to alter the current situation.

...

am not gonna need once again explain how representative democracy works, yes? 

HA! Good Fun!

[Lexx]

8 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

isn't what you said though, is it? 

That was hyperbole. Didn't thought I had to lay out everything in minuscule detail.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Lexx

[Gromnir]

11 minutes ago, Lexx said:

That was hyperbole. Didn't thought I had to lay out everything in minuscule detail.

*chuckle*

our explanation shows how hyperbole is less than helpful as the issue is more complex than suggested. also, your last few posts indicate the kinda ordinary ignorance o' the US political system we has come to expect from most europeans and all too many americans. am gonna take at face value unless we see evidence which suggests another explanation. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 10, 2022 by Gromnir

[Lexx]

Well, as I already wrote earlier, it's a fact that we are getting bombed with american politics almost 24/7. And since I'm also active on the english speaking internet, it's almost as if I am living in america (not sure where, though. Maybe California but without the heat?), since literally everything is always about america. There is not a single day where I'm not reading any american news. The only thing that improved is that there's no Trump tweet every day anymore, which, by the way, is f-ing awesome.

tl;dr - if you are european and can speak english, you will be subjected to american politics, there is no way to avoid it.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Lexx

[Gromnir]

32 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Well, as I already wrote earlier, it's a fact that we are getting bombed with american politics almost 24/7. And since I'm also active on the english speaking internet, it's almost as if I am living in america, since literally everything is always about america. There is not a single day where I'm not reading any american news. The only thing that improved is that there's no Trump tweet every day anymore, which, by the way, is f-ing awesome.

tl;dr - if you are european and can speak english, you will be subjected to american politics, there is no way to avoid it.

as we said, your ignorance is ordinary and no worse than what we has come to expect. am not expecting an admission from you, but am gonna continue to provide corrective  info as required when we see you get it wrong... again. 

euro and canadian preoccupation with american politics in spite o' most such individuals having only the most surface level understanding o' US issues and the systemic limitations to change is hardly new btw. many decades past we went to teach in europe and at the time we were a liberal Cal graduate who had a whole lotta anger directed at the US government. being around europeans on a daily basis for ~18 months is what turned us into a moderate conservative. and is not as if we were teaching law neither which mighta' explained why our students were so willing to opine on all things US. were literature students for chrissakes. 

y'know, we don't even feel confident speaking 'bout maryland politics as the US is extreme diverse and local issues is more relevant than national for most voters. prop 30 were getting significant coverage here in california and am suspecting that water is gonna be an increasing important issue with each subsequent ca election, but taxes subsidizing electric cars and water hardly make top ten o' the most important national issues and am suspecting maryland top issues look mighty different than california. we don't feel confident opining on maryland, but what euros and canadians glean from the intraweb makes all too many experts on US? 

*snort*

aside, am marginal confident warnock has an edge in a runoff. as with the 2020 georgia senate runoff(s), placing the senate majority in the balance will overcome the one hurdle democrats always face when is time for elections: indolence. is more registered democrats in georgia than there is republicans. if democrats vote, then they should win. also, herschel walker is a terrible candidate and with the expected post midterm gop infighting/finger pointing, is hard to believe mr. walker won't become representative o' the seeming divide brewing in the gop. finally, mr. walker is a train wreck and is hard to imagine new stories won't come to light in the intervening month which make walker even less appealing to the few fence straddlers.

HA! Good Fun!

ps (edit) prop 30 is actual a decent example o' the kinda local issue politics which is gonna lead to euro and even non californian confusion. am suspecting most non californians would be shocked by how the prop 30 issue went down 'cause 'course tree hugging and woke californians wanna tax the rich to make more electric cars available, right?

Edited November 10, 2022 by Gromnir

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

6 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

You should try to join the electricians union.

I've considered it, but I'm making good money with my current gig.

38 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Well, as I already wrote earlier, it's a fact that we are getting bombed with american politics almost 24/7. And since I'm also active on the english speaking internet, it's almost as if I am living in america (not sure where, though. Maybe California but without the heat?), since literally everything is always about america. There is not a single day where I'm not reading any american news. The only thing that improved is that there's no Trump tweet every day anymore, which, by the way, is f-ing awesome.

tl;dr - if you are european and can speak english, you will be subjected to american politics, there is no way to avoid it.

I think the classical German music group Rammstein had a song about how all the world lives in America. This is true by most measures, America exports media of all kinds around the world so it's almost inescapable. From what I've heard from other non-Americans who speak English, it's nigh impossible to avoid. My sympathies because this place is ****ing dumb as ****.

Trump being banned from Twitter was legitimately one of the funniest things to happen.

[Gorth]

7 minutes ago, KP From Another World said:

I've considered it, but I'm making good money with my current gig.

I think the classical German music group Rammstein had a song about how all the world lives in America. This is true by most measures, America exports media of all kinds around the world so it's almost inescapable. From what I've heard from other non-Americans who speak English, it's nigh impossible to avoid. My sympathies because this place is ****ing dumb as ****.

Trump being banned from Twitter was legitimately one of the funniest things to happen.

"Luckily" we have our own mess down here to not worry too much about US politics. At least after Scott from Marketing got kicked out. Doesn't mean there aren't headlines of course, but they usually fall into one of two categories, either elections or school shootings. Todays ABC news frontpage has two articles about the mid term elections in the US. Beaten by covid related info (Queensland, my state, recommends wearing face masks again from tomorrow as the Omicron variant is sweeping through the country in a new wave), drug scandals in sports and Chinese antics (including covid in China) and the disproportionate number of Aboriginal deaths in police custody (because racism is alive and well in Australia)

 

[Gromnir]

evidence o' that gop infighting we were talking 'bout moments ago, yes? trump's favorite "newspaper" is staking him out like the goat from jurassic park and is hard to imagine he exits as the gop leader anymore quiet and dignified than he did when he lost the Presidential election.

january 6 didn't convince republicans to jettison trump, nor did any o' his legal issues. is almost insulting to think lukewarm mid-term gains could be what ends the gop collective genuflection at the mar-a-lago altar.

for democrats, the best scenario is for the trump base to rally around their guy and prevent trump's fall or at least make it take as long as possible. am thinking democrats need trump far more than does the gop.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Bartimaeus]

15 hours ago, Malcador said:

Typical American...

Without personal reason to be invested and care, any knowledge I could have of said elections would undoubtedly lead to the same shallow "understanding" that results in ignorant and oft annoying jerk-ass comments like we see about American elections from both too many voters here at home and ye poorly informed foreigners, foreigners who understandably couldn't ever even begin to grasp the issues at play without actually living here...and that's with American elections evidently being covered to an unhealthy degree in at least the anglosphere. It's already a serious undertaking to be at least a little knowledgeable about American elections to the point of being able to talk about them, and I try to be aware of when I don't know enough before I open my mouth about something, so I will graciously leave the Canadian elections to the Canadians and the German elections to the Germans. Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt and all that.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

Without personal reason to be invested and care, any knowledge I could have of said elections would undoubtedly lead to the same shallow "understanding" that results in ignorant and oft annoying jerk-ass comments like we see about American elections from both too many voters here at home and ye poorly informed foreigners, foreigners who understandably couldn't ever even begin to grasp the issues at play without actually living here...and that's with American elections evidently being covered to an unhealthy degree in at least the anglosphere. It's already a serious undertaking to be at least a little knowledgeable about American elections to the point of being able to talk about them, and I try to be aware of when I don't know enough before I open my mouth about something, so I will graciously leave the Canadian elections to the Canadians and the German elections to the Germans. Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt and all that.

Nah, you overcomplicating something that is irrelevant to why most non-Americans follow US elections and have an opinion on the US. You dont need to understand the intricacies of runoffs, voting laws, bills  or even how Congress works to have an opinion on the US or its elections

Thats not what most non-Americans care about because thats specific to the US electoral system. We care about the political outcomes and who  wins the House, Senate and presidential race because that has direct influence to the significant and important role the US plays in the globe and geopolitical  events like the support for Ukraine and the support for NATO 

So we are going to continue to  open our mouths and comment because its obvious how the Dems and GOP can and do influence US foreign policy. Sorry to disappoint you and Gromnir but thats not going to change until the US is no longer the force of influence it is. And since that is unlikely to change you are going to continue to hear comments and views from non-Americans 

Edited November 10, 2022 by BruceVC

[majestic]

I got the impression that @Malcador post was supposed to be a joke, what with the truncated quote and all.

5 hours ago, Gromnir said:

intraweb

Take this as proof that someone reads your posts, but this is wrong, please use intarweb. Intrawebs are for internal use within an organisation only, unless they come with an option for externals to connect, in which case they're called extrawebs.

5 hours ago, Gromnir said:

our explanation shows how hyperbole is less than helpful as the issue is more complex than suggested. also, your last few posts indicate the kinda ordinary ignorance o' the US political system we has come to expect from most europeans and all too many americans. am gonna take at face value unless we see evidence which suggests another explanation. 

Don't worry, we're as ignorant about our own election/political systems as we are about the US political system. I see that almost every day, and especially again in recent times as we went through three chancellors in a rather short time span. People now complain that nobody elected the current chancellor, even though the established government (and thus, whichever party holds an absolute majority of representatives or establishes a coalition with 50% + 1 representatives) nominates someone for the office of chancellor, not the people directly. If one steps down, the party in question is free to select anyone else as replacement. There is no law that states that when a chancellor resigns there must be general elections.

The entire government is established that way, and there's nothing that states that any government official must belong to any political party. In theory (much less in practice, obviously), they don't even need to be members of a party. Three years ago, after the fist vote of no confidence against the entire govnerment ever to succeed in parliament, we had a period where a government of experts was established to propose legislation that was then voted on in parliament, while parties also brought legislation that was voted on. The chancellor during this period was a former member of the constitutional court, which is just about as much free of political influences as it can possibly get (again, ideally entirely, but of course not quite, as usual with any official functions).

In elections, we do vote for parties, not people. There are only two exceptions here, the president, who is voted for directly - and is nominally at least independent of parties (nominees sent with party backing are expected to leave their party attachments behind, which does work as well as you might expect it to, but that is a wholly different matter) - and some towns that allow for the mayor to be voted for directly, but those are a stark minority of townships, as most municipal elections result in the selection of the municipal council which in turn elects the mayor.

That does not stop the right wing populists from telling their voters that nobody voted for the current chancellor, and that the government should be dissolved and general elections held, and people from parroting misinformation spread by a party who should and does know better, because they were the first ones to break with the tradition that their selected public running candidate ("Spitzenkandidat"), who got 'voted' for, according to their own logic, did in fact not accept the office of chancellor or vice chancellor after the election when they formed part of the goverment, and in fact, they made the running candidate of the third strongest party chancellor.

Bet you that in two years time, when the EU parliamentary elections are held, people will once again complain about how undemocratic the European Union is, after not going to vote for the parliament, which will most likely once again result in the conservatives being the strongest party in parliament, which in turn will confirm the new President of the European Commission from within their ranks, and nothing will change, and people will once again grumble about how nothing ever changes with that undemocratic heap of bureaucracy.

Of course, the EU also has the issue of being the dumpster for political trash that cannot otherwise be conveniently disposed of, as such it is a veritable cornucopia of toxic waste and people whose intellectual capacities could be benevolently described as limited.

Like this here guy, who at various times was responsible for the EU's policy on energy, digital economy and society  as well as budget and human resources:

Just ignore the subtitles, as they're as terrible as the speech given by Günther Öttinger, and before anyone complains that it is petty to, well, complain about someone's accent and command of English - that does not prevent him from preparing for the speech, because it is quite clear that he's reading it for the very first time (even though it is supposed to represent his views as much as that of the party he belongs to), and it does stand to reason that whoever nominated the person (that would be the German government) should pick someone with a decent command of the language they need to make use of in their everyday work life.

*sigh*

Edited November 10, 2022 by majestic

[Gorth]

20 minutes ago, majestic said:

The entire government is established that way, and there's nothing that states that any government official must belong to any political party. In theory (much less in practice, obviously), they don't even need to be members of a party.

Didn't something like that happen in Italy after Berlusconi's corruption scandals reach the point beyond salvaging, even by his 95% media dominance?

 

Iirc, the parliament appoint an unaffiliated technocrat to try to salvage the economy for the short term. Somebody without a past (or a political future) who just happened to understand basic economics, so he got shoved into the seat for a while (while the old political parties were plotting on how to get back into power once the economy looked just a little better)