The All things Political Topic - The Night never knew that its end was fleet.

[ShadySands]

Yeah, you just beat me to it. I was just going to say that nobody said or suggested the US is more repressive than China and even if they did the fact that you can say that publicly means that it's not true.

[Guard Dog]

1 minute ago, majestic said:

Except nobody at all was suggesting that the US is a more repressive state than China, that's just Bruce being his disingenous self.

Not being fine with giving our Corporate Overlords the ability to assume direct control over our computers (which is what Zoraptor expressed, in part) has nothing to do with approving repressive policies or genocide. Here's the one time the slippery slope argument makes sense, and nobody's using it because "China way worse" - which is really true, but by far and large also irrelevant to criticisms of US espionage and security equipment compromising backdoors.

Like I said, I don't want Microsoft to be able to restrict what I can do on my computers. I also don't want to live in China, and I don't approve of their politics. These are not mutually exclusive.

Also, wat, how are you of all people not concerned about the government's ability to spy on you willy nilly, or dicate what you can or cannot do on any electronic device you have? Do you trust them to not abuse the ability to do so? Bruce sure does. I don't... nobody should.

Unless I misread you, then I apologize in advance.

Oh I wasn’t commenting about anything in particular that has been discussed. Just responding to Bruce in general. I have heard a lot of stupid stuff said about the United States here and elsewhere. I’ve even said a few of them myself. 

 

[majestic]

1 minute ago, Guard Dog said:

Oh I wasn’t commenting about anything in particular that has been discussed. Just responding to Bruce in general. I have heard a lot of stupid stuff said about the United States here and elsewhere. I’ve even said a few of them myself.

Ah, okay. 

[Hurlshort]

I am a big fan of the US. I actually think all these flag waving MAGA folks are missing how great this country really is. They are so hyperfocused on Trump and how their rights are under attack. The reality is American Democracy is incredibly strong right now. People are voting in tremendous numbers and voting for change when they aren't happy. These recent elections were tremendous from a turnout perspective. The loudest folks just weren't happy with the result.

[ComradeYellow]

11 hours ago, ShadySands said:

Yeah, you just beat me to it. I was just going to say that nobody said or suggested the US is more repressive than China and even if they did the fact that you can say that publicly means that it's not true.

Both the Russians and Chinese have plenty of citizenry who critique their government, they just do it "flying low" like on the internet (netizens) and in small circles etc.  In fact, the government often likes these critiques because it helps them gauge public opinion better and in turn direct policy accordingly.

Really not much different from the U.S., I mean technically you CAN go out on a podium in town square with a loudspeaker in the U.S. and trash talk Uncle Sam, but you bet your sweet rear end that you're gonna be on The List if you choose to do so.

Edited September 25, 2021 by ComradeYellow

[Sarex]

12 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:

I am a big fan of the US. I actually think all these flag waving MAGA folks are missing how great this country really is. They are so hyperfocused on Trump and how their rights are under attack. The reality is American Democracy is incredibly strong right now. People are voting in tremendous numbers and voting for change when they aren't happy. These recent elections were tremendous from a turnout perspective. The loudest folks just weren't happy with the result.

It's great for the citizens of the US that are middle class and upwards. It's absolutely terrible for anyone else, the rest of the world included.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Sarex

[Gfted1]

Sucks to be them.  Thats why we need UBI, UHC and UFH.

The rest of the world can go qq in the corner about how the US is governed.

[ComradeYellow]

17 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Sucks to be them.  Thats why we need UBI, UHC and UFH.

These are not long term solutions to curb the root causality of social ills inflicted by the current economic structure of the U.S.

A lot of people like to point to some European countries like Denmark as a success story, but what people don't understand is that a lot of these generous welfare states are only successful because they make a killing off of the curtails of the American Empire, just like middle class people are only middle class because they are sandwiched between the rich and the poor slums, hence:  Europe, the middle class of the world.  Without the U.S. and without poor countries they would not be able to stay afloat like they do.

[Gfted1]

I am disappoint by your lack of support. As I understand it 3 hots, a cot, and shots (food, shelter, medical care) are baseline inalienable rights for everyone whos born or immigrates into this country. We are being held back as a society because fatcats are hoarding all the wealth and we just need to raise taxes to fund these programs. Nirvana to follow. We need to start immediately and give it a 50 year run, see what happens.

[Guard Dog]

13 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:

I am a big fan of the US. I actually think all these flag waving MAGA folks are missing how great this country really is. They are so hyperfocused on Trump and how their rights are under attack. The reality is American Democracy is incredibly strong right now. People are voting in tremendous numbers and voting for change when they aren't happy. These recent elections were tremendous from a turnout perspective. The loudest folks just weren't happy with the result.

Well in all fairness to them their rights ARE under attack. To one degree or another. Like Gromnir has said there is a constant tension between the rights of the citizens and the efforts/desires of the state. In the US we have an imperfect record of keeping the balance between the two. But for the most part we have done a good job. Better than some.
 

I scoffed at the notion that “democracy was under attack” under the Trump years. We had an election. It was validated and the winner is in power. We’ve had sore losers before. There was no possible outcome where he kept power AND a United country. But more and more from the Bernstein book and other sources I wonder if he would not have happily burned it all down just to be President of the ruins.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Guard Dog

[Gromnir]

3 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

 Like Gromnir has said there is a constant tension between the rights of the citizens and the efforts/desires of the state.

never said that. 

what we keep saying, and what recent events should make abundant clear is that The People is the single biggest threat to your rights here in the US. look at texas and their abortion law. the law were passed democratic, and is hardly a solitary example. all you need is a simple legislative majority to do all kinda stoopid.

the stuff folks think o' as their rights is coming in one o' two flavours:

1) democratic passed laws like the Civil Rights Acts 

2) Constitution

the problem with the democratic legislation stuff is that a majority o' americans, acting outta fear or anger, may take away rights at any time. heck, 'cause o' gerrymandering and our representative system, you not even need a real majority o' texans or Americans to create or remove legislative rights. on the other hand, the Constitutional rights is extreme limited because those rights is a bar on democracy and most americans find the notion o' limits on democracy to be repugnant. the thing is, most americans never stop and consider the nature o' those Constitutional Rights most o' us think is sooper important. right to free exercise of religion or need for reasonableness for police searches and seizures is purposeful protected from democracy. wanna change free exercise clause? need a Constitutional Amendment to do so. 

is not some tension 'tween the Government and The  People. such is a gd narrative and decided not Gromnir position. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Guard Dog]

Sorry, misquoted you. Now that you’ve corrected me that is what you said I remember.

[rjshae]

17 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:

I am a big fan of the US. I actually think all these flag waving MAGA folks are missing how great this country really is. They are so hyperfocused on Trump and how their rights are under attack. The reality is American Democracy is incredibly strong right now. People are voting in tremendous numbers and voting for change when they aren't happy. These recent elections were tremendous from a turnout perspective. The loudest folks just weren't happy with the result.

I think a lot of this is being driven by America's relative decline in power. Many of the people supporting the Trumpian faction have been hurt economically by the loss of manufacturing in the US. Unfortunately for them their central figure is not quite right in the head, or perhaps their movement would be more potent and effective. Trump isn't an effective strategist, at least not in terms of the national interests.

[Guard Dog]

23 minutes ago, rjshae said:

I think a lot of this is being driven by America's relative decline in power. Many of the people supporting the Trumpian faction have been hurt economically by the loss of manufacturing in the US. Unfortunately for them their central figure is not quite right in the head, or perhaps their movement would be more potent and effective. Trump isn't an effective strategist, at least not in terms of the national interests.

This is correct. Plus he is exploiting their concerns and giving them back very little in the way of help or relief in exchange for their support. 
 

Economics is complex. It cannot be distilled down to sound bites and political axioms. there certainly are things the government could be doing to help people who just want to work hard and provide a comfortable middle class lifestyle for their families. But, regardless of the outcome of any election they are not going to do it. The politicians will still shamelessly exploit the concerns of the middle class however. 
 

[Gfted1]

3 hours ago, rjshae said:

Many of the people supporting the Trumpian faction have been hurt economically by the loss of manufacturing in the US.

Unless youre referring to a region other than the Rust Belt, this has been going on since the 70's.

[rjshae]

12 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Unless youre referring to a region other than the Rust Belt, this has been going on since the 70's.

Guess where Trump won the election in 2016: the rust belt.

[Pidesco]

3 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

 

Economics is complex. It cannot be distilled down to sound bites and political axioms. 
 

Yet the Austrian school of economics soldiers on. 

[BruceVC]

22 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:

I am a big fan of the US. I actually think all these flag waving MAGA folks are missing how great this country really is. They are so hyperfocused on Trump and how their rights are under attack. The reality is American Democracy is incredibly strong right now. People are voting in tremendous numbers and voting for change when they aren't happy. These recent elections were tremendous from a turnout perspective. The loudest folks just weren't happy with the result.

I generally assume we all love our countries? Unless you live in a war zone or failed state I always think  its  normal to support your country of birth. That doesnt mean you cant criticize political developments or have concerns about societal developments. And I am sure most US forum members, KP being the exception, would say they like the US because if you ask GD the same question  Im sure he would say he loves the US but has issues with the political parties that are in charge? And thats not the same as not loving your country which sometimes people equate to having issues with some political outcome or maybe  a judge appointment 

And I agree that the increase of the visibility of groups like MAMA should be a concern on some levels but  some of these right wing groups have different views than real neo-nazis and they seem to exist more because of the outcome of the Trump presidency and his claims the election was stolen? But the concern is more about these groups becoming so emboldened ?

But the biggest concern I have with developments that could harm the overall US with its views is this very belligerent way that many people on the left or right engage with each other or refuse to accept any alternative or criticism to a view or suggestion . This type of immediate rejection that something is wrong because the other side raises it seems to undermine how in most Democracies you can find middle ground and compromise on bills or laws that should address a problem but  sometimes they are dead on arrival. I realize that political differences exist  in most Democracies but its seems to have become worse or intransigent or is this much of the same when it comes  to finding agreement

But I would say its more about who is the majority in the house or senate who will pass bills with  not needing any consensus and using their majority that then alienates the other side who say things like " they  dont care about any common  ground " and they repeat the pattern when they in power. So you should always try to find agreement and not rely on majority because it seems to create cycles of bills being hated or judges being appointed to SC that are  seen as controversial but one side is always fine with the outcomes which is how parts of Democracy generally do work out with a  majority deciding?

But the real dichotomy is the non-political groups and SJ movements that often have real objectives that are framed or created as something well meaning as they  should be about addressing a societal woe and inequality yet mostly in the US these groups have certain objectives that dont make any sense about how they  could really change the spurious views they believe needs to change. And these suggestions are suppose to be about making things better in the US but  they not based on any historical examples of how this will improve things and I am not sure if these SJ initiatives are widespread or actually have been implemented? 

I sometimes research and then understand what these initiatives are about but some I dont understand like Critical Race Theory, does anyone understand what its suppose to  be about and what would be taught at schools, here is a link I was reading about what its suppose to be about but after reading it I am  still confused with what you will be teaching students and how that would address real racism in the US like the views of KKK and white supremist ?

https://criticalrace.org/what-is-critical-race-theory/

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

I generally assume we all love our countries?

1648 is calling, they want you back!

[BruceVC]

7 minutes ago, Gorth said:

1648 is calling, they want you back!

Gorthfuscious you know I really like you and think most of your views are balanced but you are someone who has never understood patriotism....and its your Danish blood, look  how many Danish Vikings left Denmark to live in the UK

And your own life journey has been  example of this , you demonstrated anarchist tendencies and you have always wondered from country to country ....now Oz is your home but do you feel parotitic towards Oz? I would be surprised but perhaps

However you do have an advantage that the rest of us dont have .....you can call any country your home and it does appear you settle. Of course you have your work skills allow you to find work...oh interesting work you do and I always assumed you knew products that are used globally

But patriotism is good thing but it makes us not  want to leave , you have beaten that constraint. And I admire that but one question do you make new friends in the countries you live in?

[Gorth]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

But patriotism is good thing

It's just PR speak for nationalism. You can try to paint it prettier than it is, but it isn't. My signature pretty much covers my thoughts on "patriotism". When the various lords, counts, dukes, kings etc. figured out they couldn't get the serfs to flock to their banner and die for their rulers, they came up with this splendid new idea in 1648. Patriotism! Trick the peasants into believing they are part of something and they'll die by the thousand (or millions, in last century) for an abstract entity that replaced the old structures. Worship your nation state instead of your local baron. It's still the masses dancing to the tunes of their masters voice. It's pretty genius really. Not happy with the system? But you're part of it. Hard to argue against, right? Now shut up and march this way, it's where the front is (because the peasants on the other side of that front belongs to another "nation"). Nothing has changed, only the name and what the rulers call themselves. So no, no sympathy for nations, nationalists (or the self proclaimed "patriots", who are just tools for their masters).

[Guard Dog]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I generally assume we all love our countries? Unless you live in a war zone or failed state I always think  its  normal to support your country of birth. That doesnt mean you cant criticize political developments or have concerns about societal developments. And I am sure most US forum members, KP being the exception, would say they like the US because if you ask GD the same question  Im sure he would say he loves the US but has issues with the political parties that are in charge? And thats not the same as not loving your country which sometimes people equate to having issues with some political outcome or maybe  a judge appointment 

 

That is an interesting question. If you'd asked me 20 years ago if I loved my country my answer would have been an unequivocal "yes". Ask me now and I think I'd answer it differently. What is my country? I love my countrymen very much. Americans are generally good and decent people. On average we are generous, charitable, and are generally willing to help total strangers even if it's not 100% safe to do so. Plus we invented tailgate parties. You might argue that people living in prosperous nations where simple day to day survival is not an issue can afford to be so. But I've been to prosperous nations where that is not the case. Japan for example. Everyone is polite and respectful but if something bad happens you are own your own. Someone once described it to me as "millions of people alone together". That was my observation there as well. Social interaction between strangers just does no happen. It's not even uncommon in the US. I love that about us. On that note I found Canada & Mexico to be very similar to the US. I think because people travel freely between the three countries we all share more of a social culture than folks realize. 

There isn't much to love about the US government. Other than it somehow manages to not be it's worst self most of the time. That is something I guess. Mark Twain said "Patriotism is loyalty to your country all the time and loyalty to it's government only when it deserves it". I think that sums it up for me.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Guard Dog

[Gorth]

Looks like there is a supply problem on the mercenary market?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/25/mali-approached-russian-private-companies-moscow-not-involved

 

Mali going shopping in Russia. What happened to Blackwater (who made quite a name for themselves in Iraq)???

 

Mali has asked Russian private companies to boost security in the conflict-torn country, Moscow confirmed as the Malian leader accused France of abandoning Bamako by preparing a large troop drawdown.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

That is an interesting question. If you'd asked me 20 years ago if I loved my country my answer would have been an unequivocal "yes". Ask me now and I think I'd answer it differently. What is my country? I love my countrymen very much. Americans are generally good and decent people. On average we are generous, charitable, and are generally willing to help total strangers even if it's not 100% safe to do so. Plus we invented tailgate parties. You might argue that people living in prosperous nations where simple day to day survival is not an issue can afford to be so. But I've been to prosperous nations where that is not the case. Japan for example. Everyone is polite and respectful but if something bad happens you are own your own. Someone once described it to me as "millions of people alone together". That was my observation there as well. Social interaction between strangers just does no happen. It's not even uncommon in the US. I love that about us. On that note I found Canada & Mexico to be very similar to the US. I think because people travel freely between the three countries we all share more of a social culture than folks realize. 

There isn't much to love about the US government. Other than it somehow manages to not be it's worst self most of the time. That is something I guess. Mark Twain said "Patriotism is loyalty you your country all the time and loyalty to it's government only when it deserves it". I think that sums it up for me.

Interesting response and its not what I would have thought yet you raise some good points , we  were raised with  the UK view of ww1\ww2 " dulce and decorum " view of patriotism   from  my dads side but  my mom  raised us who had no real interest in things that were not  about her family. 

So my dad and his brothers believed that you must believe in your country but it was Apartheid and we were English so I guess they were echoing what my grandfather had told them but that was  WW2 belief in the UK and SA was nothing like that ...especially when the Apartheid system openly claimed to be about the survival of Afrikaans ideology ...English were not part of the government and held no senior positions in the military which was understandable because why would any English person want to politically support a political party that openly didnt want you to be part of it ....I look  back now and see how dysfunctional it all was. English citizens lived in SA and had roots but we were only tolerated  by the Apartheid state as they realized that the English had the real ties in the corporate sector, like the banks , that most Afrikaans people did not  understand or have the connections.

And I remember in my disastrous 1993 military service I was suddenly with young Afrikaans conscripts who had very little interest in English people and several times I was assaulted , because of basic mistakes I made due to not being very good at normal, army training like drilling and constantly failing my inspection in the 6 weeks of basic  training. And  what the corporals do is not punish you but  make the unit run so people are angry with you...and when  I was  accosted they would  accuse  me of " being responsible for the death of their grandparents 100 years ago  in the Boer War "

And I had been raised in a province that was English and the Afrikaans people all spoke English and had  no issues with English people because of the  terrible realities of what happened in the Concentration Camps. So it was huge shock to find people disliking me because I was English but I didnt know why they carried a grudge from something that was so long ago

So my levels of patriotism   were non-existent as I felt like an outsider in a foreign country...but Apartheid had ended by then so most white English  people only  must have felt proud after our first election in 1994 which was where SA became a normal Democracy. And of course the battles against the Soviets in Africa must have mattered but that was before my time 

But just to understand your view because maybe more Americans share your view than I assume, how did you feel after 9/11....did you feel your country had been attacked so you felt more united in support of the USA ?

But as you mentioned if you  believe the main political parties dont really care about the welfare of citizens it can also impact your view of government\country but I understand you love the American culture which is a form of patriotism and you have supported the  VA centers which is also about recognition of your country 

And its interesting to me because what Hurlshot mentioned about the importance of people participating  in voting to ensure political change is important but its not an example of patriotism necessarily because some people would have voted just because they hated the Trump reality .....and I dont blame them because many things had changed under Trump but the expectation to vote is about your civil responsibility which I use to assume most people did in the US yet as much as 45 % of US citizens dont vote yet I am sure they support the US, Gfted1 doesnt always vote but Im sure supports the US ?

Most of us believe you must vote as the right to vote was denied to most SA citizens yet it doenst have to mean you believe or would support your country on certain issues 

 I wonder how other US members feel about the belief of being patriotic towards the US ?

[Zoraptor]

Quote

Looks like there is a supply problem on the mercenary market?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/25/mali-approached-russian-private-companies-moscow-not-involved

 

Mali going shopping in Russia. What happened to Blackwater (who made quite a name for themselves in Iraq)???

 

Mali has asked Russian private companies to boost security in the conflict-torn country, Moscow confirmed as the Malian leader accused France of abandoning Bamako by preparing a large troop drawdown.

Blackwater --> Xe --> Academi. Which I believe still exists, though not independently any more.

Can't help but think that the main reason for picking Wagner is to maximally annoy the French rather than for any practical benefit. Ironically, it's illegal for Russian citizens to work as mercenaries at least technically, which is one of the reasons Moscow always has to deny having any involvement with them despite there being obvious links. That, and their alleged tendency to beat people they think are stealing from them to death with sledgehammers while being stupid enough to film themselves doing it.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Zoraptor