Politics... US election edition (2020 almost over, read all about it!)

[Lexx]

I just can't grasp how stupid these people have been. There is no logic behind it other than "lolz" Honestly, I can't even put it into words ... it's like someone played tabletop, got a heroic action check, threw dice and all of them rolled 1. I can't see how there was ever in hell any chance of this to succeed. Guess them folks can be happy it didn't end in a mass shooting with lots of dead bodies (and they would still have lost).

Edited January 8, 2021 by Lexx

[Darkpriest]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

it will divide but is based largely on right-wing imagination.

show us where biden called vandals, looters, arsonists and folks who assaulted and killed a police officer with a fire extinguisher peaceful protesters. we will wait while you look.

...

nothing?

biden condemned the criminals but pointed out that Most o' the protesters were peaceful and should not all be condemned for the actions of a select few.

converse, there were literal thousands o' people who illegal trespassed onto capitol property and many who destroyed property and attacked police. if all the trumpers had stopped at the barricades and shouted "stop the steal," then they woulda' been able to claim to be peaceful protesters. at the very least, the thousands who broke the law should face the same condemnation as the vandals and looters received from biden during the summer protests, no?

 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-biden-condemn-violence/fact-check-joe-biden-has-condemned-violent-protests-in-the-last-three-months-idUSKBN25V2O1

am knowing reuters ain't zerohedge, but...

so, am calling bull.

were there some lefties saying the violence and criminality during the summer protests were justified? yup. bad on them. we don't agree even if we sympathize with the anger and rage. however, biden and many others consistent condemned violence and criminality whenever it occurred.

bs

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

You had Harris defending the rioting... 

https://youtu.be/NTg1ynIPGls

The main point though flew over your head. I could hear 'zoooooooom' from over the other side of AtlanticO

It was a good opportunity to use and build a narrative about people being misguided and used (and how dangerous words and false accusations can be, when a person with influence is spreading those) , and instead there is now another foot of a trench dugged out. 

Hey, it's your country. For all I care you can go at each others throats. Just don't spill that nonsense outside of your sandbox. 

[ComradeYellow]

1 hour ago, Lexx said:

There is no logic behind it other than "lolz" Honestly,

After checking out their Twitter responses, they truly believe it's either them or a full blown Communist regime.  Yes, they are that far gone.

Funny how most leftists don't even really fully support Biden or the Democrats, yet try telling these idiots that.

Edited January 8, 2021 by ComradeMaster

[Amentep]

55 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

It was a good opportunity to use and build a narrative about people being misguided and used (and how dangerous words and false accusations can be, when a person with influence is spreading those) , and instead there is now another foot of a trench dugged out. 

I don't know; it seems to me it would have been lost amid the conspiracy theory set, which seems to be the peeps that are really into what happened at the Capitol.  

Experience has shown that even truth is hard to shake a conspiracy theory.  One refrain from lawmakers who were protesting the electors and the Capitol protesters and the Capitol rioters was that they wanted to look at the votes and make sure there was no fraud.  Except in Georgia, at least, that was done (actually twice in Georgia, including comparing the machine counts to the printed vote sheets count).  They wanted to inspect the voting machines, which was also done - a forensic analysis in Georgia of the Dominion machines showed no signs of tampering or of any process to steal votes.  The allegations of dead voters voting in Georgia were investigated (as all fraud claims are) and nothing was found.  The guy accused of stealing machines in Georgia was revealed to be a phone technician installing phones.  A random sample audit of one of the counties most targeted as a "high election fraud" turned up 2 problematic ballots that weren't believed to be fraud.

Instead of accepting this audit as the truth and accepting the validity of the results of the election, this group (+Trump) pivoted to insist that the entire Georgia government is in on the fix.  This disregards that its a Republican governed state; they clearly aren't Trump Republicans (despite many of them campaigning with his endorsement or aligning themselves to his agenda). Because with conspiracy theories, its easier to widen the conspiracy than admit facts that go counter to what you know is true.

With all of that as background, do you really think Biden (who the extreme conspiracy theories have as a Deep State child eater or something) could actually 'build a narrative about people being misguided and used' that would have reached this group?

[ComradeYellow]

You've said "conspiracy theory" almost five times.  There's many things wrong with the Trump camp, rightfully believing to some degree that they're being shafted and lied to by the government is not one of them.  Yes, Biden won fair and square but lingering populist sentiment is not going to go anywhere.

[rjshae]

2 hours ago, Lexx said:

I just can't grasp how stupid these people have been. There is no logic behind it other than "lolz" Honestly, I can't even put it into words ... it's like someone played tabletop, got a heroic action check, threw dice and all of them rolled 1. I can't see how there was ever in hell any chance of this to succeed. Guess them folks can be happy it didn't end in a mass shooting with lots of dead bodies (and they would still have lost).

Idiots indeed. Yes it's a head scratcher as to why they got so riled up over what's essentially a fake conspiracy. They're lucky they didn't get mowed down on the capital steps.

[rjshae]

4 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

Btw, calling those people terrorists by Biden and not calling the protesters, while calling all the rioting and looting mobs 'peaceful protesters' is a show of double standards. This will make people even more divided. 

Instead of calling these people misguided and abandoned, who need to be guided and ubited with, he puts even more of a negative emotions into an already complicated situation. 

One of these things is not like the other. Protest is allowed under the constitution. Rioting and looting is not. Storming the capital building in an attempt to intimidate the government is most definitely not. The mob of morons were okay up until the point where they decided to invade Congress. At that point they should have been met by a hail of bullets.

There's a reason why the main streets of Paris are so wide.

[Guard Dog]

One thing is near certain I think you can kiss Trump TV goodbye. As well as the political futures of the children. If the storming of the capital tells us anything it’s that we need to be completely done with the whole sorry lot of them. I cannot imagine any network is going to want to get in bed with them now. Not even Newsmax.

[Darkpriest]

1 hour ago, Amentep said:

I don't know; it seems to me it would have been lost amid the conspiracy theory set, which seems to be the peeps that are really into what happened at the Capitol.  

Experience has shown that even truth is hard to shake a conspiracy theory.  One refrain from lawmakers who were protesting the electors and the Capitol protesters and the Capitol rioters was that they wanted to look at the votes and make sure there was no fraud.  Except in Georgia, at least, that was done (actually twice in Georgia, including comparing the machine counts to the printed vote sheets count).  They wanted to inspect the voting machines, which was also done - a forensic analysis in Georgia of the Dominion machines showed no signs of tampering or of any process to steal votes.  The allegations of dead voters voting in Georgia were investigated (as all fraud claims are) and nothing was found.  The guy accused of stealing machines in Georgia was revealed to be a phone technician installing phones.  A random sample audit of one of the counties most targeted as a "high election fraud" turned up 2 problematic ballots that weren't believed to be fraud.

Instead of accepting this audit as the truth and accepting the validity of the results of the election, this group (+Trump) pivoted to insist that the entire Georgia government is in on the fix.  This disregards that its a Republican governed state; they clearly aren't Trump Republicans (despite many of them campaigning with his endorsement or aligning themselves to his agenda). Because with conspiracy theories, its easier to widen the conspiracy than admit facts that go counter to what you know is true.

With all of that as background, do you really think Biden (who the extreme conspiracy theories have as a Deep State child eater or something) could actually 'build a narrative about people being misguided and used' that would have reached this group?

Yes, it could have. Instead of labeling the terrorists, etc. get a conciliatory speach, offer counsel to those apperhanded, and even possibilty to pardon on a case by case approach after the federal investigation. After all, you want to de-escalate, and take away munition for fearmongering. Dems got it all now it seems, so instead of retaliatory language and a one of exclusion, it was a perfect opportunity to do so and start showing aspects of a unifier. 

You won't change hard nutts over one action, but starting with a strong positive language would start eroding the less fervent base. 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Darkpriest

[Darkpriest]

42 minutes ago, rjshae said:

One of these things is not like the other. Protest is allowed under the constitution. Rioting and looting is not. Storming the capital building in an attempt to intimidate the government is most definitely not. The mob of morons were okay up until the point where they decided to invade Congress. At that point they should have been met by a hail of bullets.

There's a reason why the main streets of Paris are so wide.

When people attempted to breach premises of WH and police used riot gear and tear gass pre-emptively, it was considered scandalous, outragous etc. So which approach it is. Pre-emptoive or reactionary? Seems neither is good. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

8 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

Hey there America

 

What are you doing

Hoping I don't get shot by a dip**** larping as a viking tbh.

4 hours ago, Lexx said:

I have a hard time seeing this as an attempted coup ... because if that was, then this must have been the dumbest attempt at a coup ever. Like, man, you gotta seize media centers and military bases and other important infrastructure ... trying to hold capitol hill is figuratively just a hill to die on. This is pure, lazy dumbness.

It was a coup attempt, even if it was also incredibly stupid and silly. Think of it like a farcical reenactment of the Beer Hall Putsch. Also like the Beer Hall Putsch a lot of the higher ups (Trump, Republican politicians, Proud Boys leaders, etc.) will come out with the equivalent of a slap on the wrist and be back on their bull****.

[ComradeYellow]

Everyone outside the country appears to be entertained like it's some kind of reality show.

Everyone inside is scared ****less we're gonna get shot because we have the "wrong" views.

I will say this though, their may be a karma factor at play here, the U.S. government has been paying people in some countries to storm their capitols and overthrow unwanted "regimes", just look up The Ukraine for reference here.

Chiciens come home to roost.

[rjshae]

16 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

It was a coup attempt, even if it was also incredibly stupid and silly. Think of it like a farcical reenactment of the Beer Hall Putsch. Also like the Beer Hall Putsch a lot of the higher ups (Trump, Republican politicians, Proud Boys leaders, etc.) will come out with the equivalent of a slap on the wrist and be back on their bull****.

That was my thought as well. Historically, it reminded me of the Beer Hall Putsch. In that case though, the German police responded with much greater use of force.

[Malcador]

Cops in DC are being pretty equal with how they were treating BLM folk

 

I like the "you're unfriended, cops!!" rhetoric.

[Gromnir]

5 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

Btw, calling those people terrorists by Biden and not calling the protesters, while calling all the rioting and looting mobs 'peaceful protesters' is a show of double standards. This will make people even more divided. 

biden is spelled as follows: B-I-D-E-N

however, we watched the HARRIS clip and nowhere did she say it were okay to loot and vandalize and attack police. you are doing he same nonsense as were vol. 

...

your fluid and evasive point sux. you want to create two different standards.

the message needs to stay consistent and the message is that peaceful protests is the right (duty) of every American.

oh, and btw

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-harris/kamala-harris-condemns-looting-violence-in-wake-of-police-shooting-idUSKBN25N344

this is the message:

While my time here has now come to an end, I want you to know that in the last days and hours of my life you inspired me. You filled me with hope about the next chapter of the great American story when you used your power to make a difference in our society. Millions of people motivated simply by human compassion laid down the burdens of division. Around the country and the world you set aside race, class, age, language and nationality to demand respect for human dignity.

That is why I had to visit Black Lives Matter Plaza in Washington, though I was admitted to the hospital the following day. I just had to see and feel it for myself that, after many years of silent witness, the truth is still marching on.

Emmett Till was my George Floyd. He was my Rayshard Brooks, Sandra Bland and Breonna Taylor. He was 14 when he was killed, and I was only 15 years old at the time. I will never ever forget the moment when it became so clear that he could easily have been me. In those days, fear constrained us like an imaginary prison, and troubling thoughts of potential brutality committed for no understandable reason were the bars.

Though I was surrounded by two loving parents, plenty of brothers, sisters and cousins, their love could not protect me from the unholy oppression waiting just outside that family circle. Unchecked, unrestrained violence and government-sanctioned terror had the power to turn a simple stroll to the store for some Skittles or an innocent morning jog down a lonesome country road into a nightmare. If we are to survive as one unified nation, we must discover what so readily takes root in our hearts that could rob Mother Emanuel Church in South Carolina of her brightest and best, shoot unwitting concertgoers in Las Vegas and choke to death the hopes and dreams of a gifted violinist like Elijah McClain.

Like so many young people today, I was searching for a way out, or some might say a way in, and then I heard the voice of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on an old radio. He was talking about the philosophy and discipline of nonviolence. He said we are all complicit when we tolerate injustice. He said it is not enough to say it will get better by and by. He said each of us has a moral obligation to stand up, speak up and speak out. When you see something that is not right, you must say something. You must do something. Democracy is not a state. It is an act, and each generation must do its part to help build what we called the Beloved Community, a nation and world society at peace with itself.

Ordinary people with extraordinary vision can redeem the soul of America by getting in what I call good trouble, necessary trouble. Voting and participating in the democratic process are key. The vote is the most powerful nonviolent change agent you have in a democratic society. You must use it because it is not guaranteed. You can lose it.

You must also study and learn the lessons of history because humanity has been involved in this soul-wrenching, existential struggle for a very long time. People on every continent have stood in your shoes, though decades and centuries before you. The truth does not change, and that is why the answers worked out long ago can help you find solutions to the challenges of our time. Continue to build union between movements stretching across the globe because we must put away our willingness to profit from the exploitation of others.

Though I may not be here with you, I urge you to answer the highest calling of your heart and stand up for what you truly believe. In my life I have done all I can to demonstrate that the way of peace, the way of love and nonviolence is the more excellent way. Now it is your turn to let freedom ring.

When historians pick up their pens to write the story of the 21st century, let them say that it was your generation who laid down the heavy burdens of hate at last and that peace finally triumphed over violence, aggression and war. So I say to you, walk with the wind, brothers and sisters, and let the spirit of peace and the power of everlasting love be your guide.--the final essay of John Lewis, published after his death.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited January 8, 2021 by Gromnir

[Elerond]

34 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

Yes, it could have. Instead of labeling the terrorists, etc. get a conciliatory speach, offer counsel to those apperhanded, and even possibilty to pardon on a case by case approach after the federal investigation. After all, you want to de-escalate, and take away munition for fearmongering. Dems got it all now it seems, so instead of retaliatory language and a one of exclusion, it was a perfect opportunity to do so and start showing aspects of a unifier. 

You won't change hard nutts over one action, but starting with a strong positive language would start eroding the less fervent base. 

 

You know that conspiracy leaning people, sites, news etc. are already claiming that there was no Trump supporters, right wing people or Qano etc. people among those who stromed in Capitol, but that all the stormers were actually disguised members of antifa, regardless of fact that storming was live streamed by well known figures including right wing politicians and well known right wing/qano/etc. people are easily  identifiable from videos and pictures taken from the Capitol. 

Meaning there is probably nothing that you can do to de-escalate situation with those people because for them only acceptable situation is where they have total control and they will invent narrative that justifies any action they take to get that point. So you can't take munition for fearmongering that isn't based reality and which changes constantly to fit current situation, meaning there is always new fearmongering stories that will be spread regardless of actions that are taken. There is no good way to counter such, but showing significant consequences, does not necessary slow down believers but it has impact people around believers which makes believers work harder. 

[rjshae]

The woman who was shot and killed was a Trump supporter. I think as people get rounded up and jailed, the stark truth will come out.

[Raithe]

[ComradeYellow]

Edward Snowden on Twitter: "Never forget that the Freedom of the Press is the very first part of the Bill of Rights. If you're out on the street claiming to defend the Constitution, the way you do that is by protecting reporters, not attacking them. Even if you hate the media, anything less is un-American." / Twitter

[Gromnir]

10 minutes ago, rjshae said:

The woman who was shot and killed was a Trump supporter. I think as people get rounded up and jailed, the stark truth will come out.

Who was Ashli Babbitt, woman shot inside Capitol building?

btw, am not agreeing with using the "terrorist" label, but am sharing the following link for those who want to hear what the unfortunate woman believed in her own words.

 

[Gromnir]

edit function on previous post is wonky, so apologies in advance for the double-post

biden being critical o' the rioters on January 6 is the right message. the gatewaypundit/zerohedge/qanon nutters need to be disavowed. the actions of these folks need to be rejected not just by Biden but by the republican establishment. fringe. they were fringe before bannon and trump legitimized. they need be rejected by republicans today and not legitimized by biden.

that said, we welcome any trumper who is willing to peaceful protest. while we disagree with too many of them and am profound disturbed by the willingness to embrace conspiracy theories which confuse "mere possibility" with "fact," we will fight to the death (metaphorical as we will put self in harm's way before we cause physical injury to another) to preserve their right to protest... to the extent o' the first amendment and perhaps even a bit beyond. however, am drawing the same line biden, harris and lewis drew-- No Violence. failure to condemn violence is unacceptable. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited January 8, 2021 by Gromnir

[Elerond]

20 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

Edward Snowden on Twitter: "Never forget that the Freedom of the Press is the very first part of the Bill of Rights. If you're out on the street claiming to defend the Constitution, the way you do that is by protecting reporters, not attacking them. Even if you hate the media, anything less is un-American." / Twitter

I love how big sunk of reply's are "but but but MSM is evil"

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

One thing is near certain I think you can kiss Trump TV goodbye. As well as the political futures of the children. If the storming of the capital tells us anything it’s that we need to be completely done with the whole sorry lot of them. I cannot imagine any network is going to want to get in bed with them now. Not even Newsmax.

I dunno, sounds like more reason they'll have Trump TV.

[melkathi]

7 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

Ok, so I hear one of Police  Officers died? 

Anyone knows the details? 

That's absolutely something that should not ever be happening as a part of a protest... 

Since you read CNN you probably have found the article already, but posting it just in case:

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/08/politics/capitol-police-officer-killed/index.html

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

One thing is near certain I think you can kiss Trump TV goodbye. As well as the political futures of the children. If the storming of the capital tells us anything it’s that we need to be completely done with the whole sorry lot of them. I cannot imagine any network is going to want to get in bed with them now. Not even Newsmax.

I hope you are right