Baldur's Gate 3 - the 2nd thread

[Skazz]

 

52 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

[shrug] Gimme OW2, add depth to character development, and add systemic depth and interactivity Tim Cain has been so good at, and we have a great little RPG series.

I think you touched upon this in the "Unpopular Opinion" thread a bit, but out of curiosity, what's your stance on VtM Bloodlines?

Edited March 8, 2020 by Amentep
Removed edited post

[Amentep]

We ask that the users of this board treat one another with respect, even when opinions differ. Personal attacks that are intended to cause unwanted attention, embarrassment, or harm will not be tolerated

[Wormerine]

1 hour ago, Skazz said:

I think you touched upon this in the "Unpopular Opinion" thread a bit, but out of curiosity, what's your stance on VtM Bloodlines?

As to threads title, I have been a bit provocative with some of the opinion, even if they are not untrue. I don't love VtM as much as other people, though big part of it is the setting. Vampire's a not my thing, and first time I played it I bounced of it pretty hard because of it. 

Beside that, I think it's a pretty great RPG. What I am not thrilled about, is that a lot of reactivity and replayibility comes from picking various vampire clans - while impressive how the game accomodates even more unusual vampires, it does feel to me like you pick an experience at the start of the game, rather then crafting your character as you go, and having the world react to me. There just some types of reactivity which I admire, but don't find engaging. This is one, another example are two 2nd chapters in Witcher2. 

It's defenitely good, just didn't like it, like Fallout1&2 or Arcanum. A lot of it is personal taste.

[sorophx]

Original Sin 2 has a good story? are you on crack? that's one of the blandest games ever story wise... I guess now I know why Larian's games are so popular. people can't tell a good story from a bad one, too many games, too much time spent playing mediocre crap, harder and harder to separate the good from the bad, I guess, in this sea of mediocrity.

[bringingyouthefuture]

28 minutes ago, sorophx said:

Original Sin 2 has a good story? are you on crack? that's one of the blandest games ever story wise... I guess now I know why Larian's games are so popular. people can't tell a good story from a bad one, too many games, too much time spent playing mediocre crap, harder and harder to separate the good from the bad, I guess, in this sea of mediocrity.

Heck yeah and I haven't been on crack for 14 years thank god! That first area of DOS2 on the island and getting off it was hella fun!!  I mean it wasn't as nuanced as the Shadowrun story of course or as seamless as the Dragon Age stories, but still the quests and the setup, the exploration, everything was amazing, but its one of those things where you can say it sucks, but unfortunately the sales and popularity make a good case that it didn't ... so if they can get that synergy between action, quest, character, and combat going again the game is gonna be really good.

As for you @Wormerine 40 hours is pretty slim ...

[bringingyouthefuture]

15 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

Oh great another RPG elitist.

Funny how Tim Cain did Fallout 1 AND The Outer Worlds but there's still a significant sector of the gaming community who are agents of concepts rather than gravitating from concepts, as Tim Cain has done.

What the Hell.

Well, I did read the Twilight Books so not sure what that says about what is considered entertainment, or my taste, but if you want to discuss the ultimate entertainment that leaves you drooling ... I would say it is Henry Cavill with his shirt off with cat eyes

[xzar_monty]

29 minutes ago, bringingyouthefuture said:

but its one of those things where you can say it sucks, but unfortunately the sales and popularity make a good case that it didn't ...

Surely you should know by now that quality and success exist on two different continuums. They may or may not converge. Please do not draw quality-related conclusions from success only; they may not have anything to do with each other. Whether D:OS2 sucks or not is a different question to whether it sold well or not. (In my view, it may not suck as such, but there is also very little that is in any way interesting about it.)

When it comes to consumer products, I suppose everyone is familiar with old example concerning video cassette systems. VHS was quite frankly poor compared to Betamax, but it won hands down, due to various circumstances. This same phenomenon has happened over and over again, and the way it happens or does not happen is completely unpredictable (this has been studied and demonstrated rather superbly within the movie industry).

Essentially, there are four extreme possibilities: 1) A poor product becomes a hit. 2) A poor product finds no audience and disappears. 3) A good product becomes a hit. 4) A good product finds no audience and disappears.

The current internet-driven market has led to a great increase in polarization. This means that products, services and even companies (Amazon, Google, etc.) tend to either become the undisputed leader in their particular field, or they disappear altogether. This is generally not regarded as a good thing. It is not the overwhelmingly dominant mode within the computer game industry, at least not yet, but it'll be interesting to see whether this changes.

Edited March 8, 2020 by xzar_monty

[JerekKruger]

9 hours ago, Wormerine said:

As to threads title, I have been a bit provocative with some of the opinion, even if they are not untrue. I don't love VtM as much as other people, though big part of it is the setting. Vampire's a not my thing, and first time I played it I bounced of it pretty hard because of it.

I have a love hate relationship with the World of Darkness setting. I don't really want to play games set in (roughly) the real world, however here is something appealing about the sheer amount of detail available as a result. There's also something appealing about being able to set it in the town/city you live in (fingers crossed you don't live in somewhere like Milton Keynes however), visiting places you and your friends are familiar with, though with fabricated secrets added on.

But ultimately, it's not really my kind of setting. I quite like Ars Magica's Mythic Europe for a similar reason, and its a setting I find my interesting, though obviously the detail is less in a game set in (roughly) twelfth century Europe.

[Skazz]

1 hour ago, JerekKruger said:

(fingers crossed you don't live in somewhere like Milton Keynes however)

“Note for Americans and other aliens: Milton Keynes is a new city approximately halfway between London and Birmingham. It was built to be modern, efficient, healthy, and, all in all, a pleasant place to live. Many Britons find this amusing.”

-Neil Gaiman, "Good Omens"

Edited March 8, 2020 by Skazz

[JerekKruger]

15 minutes ago, Skazz said:

“Note for Americans and other aliens: Milton Keynes is a new city approximately halfway between London and Birmingham. It was built to be modern, efficient, healthy, and, all in all, a pleasant place to live. Many Britons find this amusing.”

-Neil Gaiman, "Good Omens"

I'd love to see a Vampire game set in Milton Keynes. I wouldn't want to play it, but I'd love to see it.

[Hurlshort]

3 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Surely you should know by now that quality and success exist on two different continuums. They may or may not converge. Please do not draw quality-related conclusions from success only; they may not have anything to do with each other. Whether D:OS2 sucks or not is a different question to whether it sold well or not. (In my view, it may not suck as such, but there is also very little that is in any way interesting about it.)

When it comes to consumer products, I suppose everyone is familiar with old example concerning video cassette systems. VHS was quite frankly poor compared to Betamax, but it won hands down, due to various circumstances. This same phenomenon has happened over and over again, and the way it happens or does not happen is completely unpredictable (this has been studied and demonstrated rather superbly within the movie industry).

Essentially, there are four extreme possibilities: 1) A poor product becomes a hit. 2) A poor product finds no audience and disappears. 3) A good product becomes a hit. 4) A good product finds no audience and disappears.

The current internet-driven market has led to a great increase in polarization. This means that products, services and even companies (Amazon, Google, etc.) tend to either become the undisputed leader in their particular field, or they disappear altogether. This is generally not regarded as a good thing. It is not the overwhelmingly dominant mode within the computer game industry, at least not yet, but it'll be interesting to see whether this changes.

I get where you are going with this, but I think it breaks down when you try and judge quality on any grounds other than basic functionality. Both VHS and Betamax were quality products. One may be better than the other, but VHS didn't become the dominant product because it was a poor product. 

D:OS2 is a quality product. It checks all the necessary boxes in order to be deemed as such. It may not be as good as another quality product, but it clearly found an audience and generated sales for a reason.

It is extremely rare for a poor product to find an audience and sell well.

 

[xzar_monty]

Just out of curiosity: what would be some of those "necessary boxes" it ticks in order to qualify as a quality product? I'm genuinely interested to see your take on this. The graphics are good, I'm pretty sure we'd agree on that, but in terms of storytelling, immersion, music, dialogue options and general creativity (this last one is a fairly nebulous concept, I'm happy to accept), I don't think there was much on offer. Turn-based combat is a matter of taste, of course, and I personally found it totally uninteresting, but I'm not going to call the game poor on that basis alone. I'm perfectly prepared to appreciate games that I don't personally enjoy (like IWD2, for instance), and were I to write a review, I'd give them high marks, but that doesn't apply for D:OS2.

No, it is not extremely rare for a poor product to find an audience and sell well. Consider, just for an example, the Star Wars prequels, that second trilogy that came out in in 1999-2002. All three movies are utter rubbish, quite horrendously poor, yet they were massive successes. And we could go on and on with this.

And please do not misconstrue what I write. Of course VHS didn't become dominant *because* it was poor. That would an absurd claim, and I never said that.

Edited March 8, 2020 by xzar_monty

[Hurlshort]

19 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Just out of curiosity: what would be some of those "necessary boxes" it ticks in order to qualify as a quality product? I'm genuinely interested to see your take on this.

No, it is not extremely rare for a poor product to find an audience and sell well. Consider, just for an example, the Star Wars prequels, that second trilogy that came out in in 1999-2002. All three movies are utter rubbish, quite horrendously poor, yet they were massive successes. And we could go on and on with this.

And please do not misconstrue what I write. Of course VHS didn't become dominant *because* it was poor. That would an absurd claim, and I never said that.

I certainly didn't mean to misconstrue what you were saying, my apologies. I was just using your analogy to point out that a product can still be a quality one even if it isn't as good as another. Particularly when we are talking about entertainment media, which is going to have a lot of variance in terms of audience, demographics, genre, etc.

D:OS2 is a game with graphics, sound, and gameplay. It has a story, characters, and it runs well. It doesn't crash. It found an audience and clearly they enjoyed their time with the game. Most other criteria for rating the game are going to be opinion-based.  

It's the same thing with the Star Wars prequels. Are they as good as the originals? I'd certainly say no. But are they quality movies on their own? Maybe not the 2nd one, that is hard to watch. But that is probably getting more into opinions. I grew up with the originals. My kids grew up with the prequels. They don't really distinguish between the two like I do. That doesn't make them lesser people, that just means they are part of a different audience. The movies themselves are perfectly watchable. They have lots of nice things to look at, and actors acting, and music, and the story has a start and a finish.

It is totally understandable that if you don't like DOS2, you probably won't like BG3. That doesn't mean it isn't a quality product, it just means it isn't your type of game. 

[xzar_monty]

@Hurlshot: My original point, made to @bringingyouthefuture, was that quality and success exist on two different continuums. You cannot claim that success equals quality or that lack of it equals poor quality. That original point still stands. Ulysses, by James Joyce, is rather universally heralded as a literary masterpiece (and quite rightly so) but it's never been a commercial success, not even close. Then you have authors like James Patterson whose stories can be illogical to the point of absurdity, but look at his sales.

Deadfire would probably deserve at least twice the sales it got, but that's the way it goes, it's not rare not to get what you deserve.

Again, please note that it's you who's talking about "lesser people". There is no such implication in what I wrote. The quality of products and the people consuming or not consuming said products are two different things altogether.

Edited March 8, 2020 by xzar_monty

[Hurlshort]

There is certainly an implication when you refer to something as "utter rubbish, quite horrendously poor" that people who enjoy said thing have poor taste.

Somebody is clearly enjoying James Patterson's work. I'll be honest, all of your examples of bad products that are commercially successful are simply your opinion. It isn't based on any facts or evidence. It is certainly true that good products don't always sell. I have no problem with that part of your argument. But again, I believe your argument breaks down when you try and point to poor quality commercial successes. It is incredibly rare for a bad product to sell well. You keep pointing out stuff that clearly found an audience, and they are all technically sound products. Star Wars, D:OS 2, James Patterson, etc. It's your opinion that they are rubbish. Don't conflate that to mean something more than it is. 

[Judicator]

I'd like to weigh in and say that I dropped D:OS2 right after the boat. The writing was unbearable. Oh, and that narrator...

[melkathi]

9 minutes ago, Judicator said:

I'd like to weigh in and say that I dropped D:OS2 right after the boat. The writing was unbearable. Oh, and that narrator...

That's Larian. Fun games if you can stop yourself from reading  or hearing any of the writing.

OK, Dragon Commander was also pretty crap as RTS goes.

[Wormerine]

6 hours ago, JerekKruger said:

I'd love to see a Vampire game set in Milton Keynes. I wouldn't want to play it, but I'd love to see it.

Or Stevenage. 

[Wormerine]

17 minutes ago, melkathi said:

OK, Dragon Commander was also pretty crap as RTS goes.

Sure, but it was also sacrificed for the sake of D:OS.

[Zoraptor]

6 hours ago, JerekKruger said:

I'd love to see a Vampire game set in Milton Keynes. I wouldn't want to play it, but I'd love to see it.

1) Malkavian has an argument with a roundabout

2) Visit the Concrete Cows

3) ... handy to London?

 

[bugarup]

1 hour ago, melkathi said:

That's Larian. Fun games if you can stop yourself from reading  or hearing any of the writing.

I don't remember where I saw it, Something Awful forums I think, opinion on DOSes -- "it's like every character is Minsc". So true.

[bringingyouthefuture]

14 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Surely you should know by now that quality and success exist on two different continuums. They may or may not converge. Please do not draw quality-related conclusions from success only; they may not have anything to do with each other. Whether D:OS2 sucks or not is a different question to whether it sold well or not. (In my view, it may not suck as such, but there is also very little that is in any way interesting about it.)

I mean who would argue with that, though a good point was made that perhaps you are too much landing in the realm of opinion.  Especially for DOS2, because reviews, critical and consumer, as well as in the good fun of capitlaism, the money points that you can say what you like but its hard to argue that the game isn't great, and writing is more than dialogue, especially if you consider authors like James Joyce.

But on another note, I would like to point out that you are wrong about Betacam losing to VHS.  TV never abandoned Betacam, it was only abondoned as a consumer medium most likely because of costs, but it stayed a professional medium well into the 90s, and in many ways outlived VHS as CDs adn DVDs took the market from VHS, but never made inroads into the professional market.  Here is an even better analogy, companies like Sony never abandoned tape, and innovated HDCAM tape which became the one and only delivery for professional video to television networks.  They kept innovating and moving forward with the technology where US companies abandoned it, and eventually took over the market completely.  Fun fact when the Tsunami hit Japan it wiped out Sony's only factory that made HDCAM SR tapes, and there was a panic in TV production because networks wouldn't accept anything else, post production facilities were hoarding them.  Of course even this technology is considered old now, and now there is LTO tape ... so I get your point but maybe the Joyce was a better analogy.  I mean DOS2 did innovate a lot with there gaming systems and it seemed to have won the day.

Edited March 9, 2020 by bringingyouthefuture

[Wormerine]

On 3/8/2020 at 10:10 AM, bringingyouthefuture said:

As for you @Wormerine 40 hours is pretty slim ...

I know, I was told so, and that lead me abandoning the playthrough, as I didn't have much fun.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

If BG3 has cheesey and terrible writing with similar breadth of content as DOS2, then it will be a clear successor to BG2. Stuff like the neurotic romances, getting railroaded into rescuing a good npc, and most of the companions was trash and BG2 got by on it's breadth of content more than it did the sloppy writing or clumsily ported 2e mechanics.

[Skazz]

27 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

most of the companions was trash

You go and apologize to Jan right now!