Malcador Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) Sounds like a plum set of jobs for friends of his Edited July 31, 2018 by Malcador Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
pmp10 Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 Someone remind me again why it is impossible for America to have a reasonable priced healthcare?US wants to have a world leading industry. Socialized health-care is not so great at R&D.
Lexx Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 But is that a fact or just what people believe? "only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die."
Guard Dog Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) But is that a fact or just what people believe? It's a complicated question. The whole thing s a bloody mess and it's getting worse because it's not all of any one thing. We can't do single payer. At least not on a national level. We can't afford it. Period. We can't do "socialized" because health care providers and facilities are privately owned and the US government cannot take their business nor compel them to do much of anything. It's not quite free market either because the government has shoved it's finger up the rear of both the providers and insurance companies. Competition between insurance companies has been eliminated by the ACA so it's Katie-bar-the-door on prices now. It wasn't exactly competitive before that because at the behest of those same insurance companies the government had placed restrictions on what companies can sell what products where. The providers are dealing with the high cost of regulatory compliance and insurance because we refuse to even consider tort reform. A single error gets you sued out of existence. And to top it all the absolute requirement in the ACA to have insurance means providers have no incentive not to stick it to the patents because they don't pay all the bill anyway. But they do when insurance premiums go up. Economics 101: all costs are ultimately paid by the consumer. It will come to a breaking point somewhere. Not sure what that will look like or what comes after. My advice is don't get sick. We do have one healthcare system in the US that works perfectly: Veterinary care. All of the providers are competing with each other which keeps prices manageable. The government has not screwed it up (yet) so you can see any Vet you like anywhere you like. There are even a few Vet insurance policies you can by and the companies that sell them can sell them to anyone anywhere. That is what our human healthcare system should have looked like. But, what's done is done. Edited July 31, 2018 by Guard Dog "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Guard Dog Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 Yeah, universal healthcare will never happen in the US unless "big pharma" is reined in with the ridiculous overpricing. It astounds me that the American people squabble over guns when their real rights are being held hostage by corporations. Also: "according to a study by a university-based libertarian policy center" Who is really to blame? The "big corporations" or the government that took their campaign money and created the mess they thrive in? I'd say the latter. It does not happen without the complicity of the government. Asking the same entity that created the mess to fix it is somehow funny and heartbreaking at the same time. But what it really could be called is futile. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Gfted1 Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 WAI. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Azdeus Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 Yeah, universal healthcare will never happen in the US unless "big pharma" is reined in with the ridiculous overpricing. It astounds me that the American people squabble over guns when their real rights are being held hostage by corporations. Also: "according to a study by a university-based libertarian policy center" Who is really to blame? The "big corporations" or the government that took their campaign money and created the mess they thrive in? I'd say the latter. It does not happen without the complicity of the government. Asking the same entity that created the mess to fix it is somehow funny and heartbreaking at the same time. But what it really could be called is futile. To be fair, people vote for them, so wouldn't that make it the peoples fault? 1 Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken
Guard Dog Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 Like the old saying goes we get the government we deserve. And we get it long and hard right where it hurts. 1 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Guard Dog Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 It's a hell of a thing really. Voting in the US has really become an act of stopping the other candidate. And the candidates themselves are promoting that very thing. All the campaign ads are appearing on TV & radio no in advance of the election in November. They are literally all the same. Candidate X is EVIL. They will kill you and enslave your children and eat your pets. Or is is eat your children and enslave your pets? But candidate Y is good and virtuous and will save you from candidate X and give you things. Vote for candidate Y. The only positive thing I can say about Donald Trump is "well, at least he isn't Hillary Clinton". Ironically had she won the only positive thing I could say about her was the opposite. I don't see any virtue in either side and no candidate from either party has ever done a THING to deserve keeping or entering the office they seek. Especially when their very presence in that office only enables dysfunction. Hell will freeze into a solid block before I ever again cast my vote for a Republican or a Democrat. Voting 3rd party may be futile (although it only is because people think it is) but at least I am not ashamed for supporting a fool. 1 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Elerond Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 But is that a fact or just what people believe? Considering that Singapore, Switzerland, South Korea, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Israel, Finland, Japan, Luxembourg, Norway and Belgium all have universal health care and use about same amount per capita to medical research than USA I would say that it is just what people believe.
ShadySands Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 I'd say it's more that healthcare is a major product in the US and is purposefully "broken" to be able to milk it for more money Sanders thanks Koch brothers for accidentally making argument for 'Medicare for all' "Let me thank the Koch brothers, of all people, for sponsoring a study that shows that Medicare for all would save the American people $2 trillion over a 10-year period," Sanders said. In the study, Blohous predicts Sanders's single-payer health-care plan would raise federal health-care spending by about $32.6 trillion between 2022 and 2031. Other economists noted in the same study, however, that federal health-care spending would drop overall by just more than $2 trillion. alt links 2 Free games updated 3/4/21
injurai Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 But is that a fact or just what people believe? Considering that Singapore, Switzerland, South Korea, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Israel, Finland, Japan, Luxembourg, Norway and Belgium all have universal health care and use about same amount per capita to medical research than USA I would say that it is just what people believe. Your talking about proportional spending per capita? As in compared to the dollar or the local currency? Then even if they are likes, there is the question of what is being bought with that money. Bureaucracy and defensive institutional spending is a huge waste of money, especially in a stagnated market. Create markets for new medical research, but the delivery and applied institutions would get by much better if redundancy was removed and the cost of running intermediaries was cut out.
Guard Dog Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 We could do single payer. But they would have to drop just about every other benefit. There is savings to be had in dropping Medicare & Medicaid. There is saving to be had in eliminating the VA as a medical provider. Eliminate food assistance, welfare, etc and we could do it. There is some benefits for people who get their insurance through work. That insurance is part of their compensation. So the cost their company pays for the premium is literally part of their salary. So rather than buy insurance the company will pay them that money. More pay means more tax. Right now that salary is tax exempt. Pharmaceuticals will be negotiating with one entity so there may be some saving to be had there. However, there are a few things people re going to have to get used to. Limited availability of some services. Rationing in other words. Also people other than you will be making decisions on what care you get. The infamous "death panels". Well, the government will not literally euthanize old folks but there is a level of care that will not be available once your working days are done. The government is no stranger to cost vs value decisions. We can do it without ruining our economy or taxing our people to death. But we won't. We either won't do it at all or do it all wrong. This is the USA, there are only two options. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Gfted1 Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 Iran rejects Trump offer of talks as 'humiliation', without value. Ordinary Iranians on Trump Talks Offer: ‘Why Not Try the Americans?’ "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
ShadySands Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 However, there are a few things people re going to have to get used to. Limited availability of some services. Rationing in other words. Also people other than you will be making decisions on what care you get. The infamous "death panels". Well, the government will not literally euthanize old folks but there is a level of care that will not be available once your working days are done. The government is no stranger to cost vs value decisions. The thing is that we already have this problem with our current system. I know every place is different but just as an example (in Denver metro with a population of about 3 million) I wanted to see a doctor about some mental health (concentration) issues but the shortest wait was about 3 months and I checked with every single specialist in my network and even out of network doctors that the insurance would still chip in on. I ended up going to the VA because they could see me in a week or two. We can do it without ruining our economy or taxing our people to death. But we won't. We either won't do it at all or do it all wrong. This is the USA, there are only two options. Agreed here Free games updated 3/4/21
injurai Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 Yeah, scarcity is definitely a problem that will happen either way. The goal is to maximize output of care, preventative care, and research. The other side of the medical industry, is you need to staff it. Which means there is the entire industry of just training and raising doctors. Well, that needs to be funded and it's mostly done through the loaning of credit. The incentive is that your directed to a field where you will be generating enough value to payback what you sucked out of the system getting there. To improve medical coverage we have to grow the portion of people that fill out the industry, and that is largely dependent on investing in people and growing a culture that values a debt based system. Unfortunately the very people who expect universal care are the very same people that are skeptical about our debt economy. People don't initially know how to create the things they want or need the most, so you have to incentive them on the path that will lead them to the productive ends. The issue is that the more leveraged a population becomes to the state, the more suspicious they become of the people who have payed off their debts and are now solvent. But we need those experts who have gone through the whole industry to take their profits and invest in ventures to contribute back to their industries. If the only payer is the state, there will be less motivation to take risk, meaning the budding yet-to-be-formed ventures will be squandered. It amazes me how people are less interested in solving which regulations are the right ones, and more committed to a single non-hybridized system as an ideal.
Elerond Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) But is that a fact or just what people believe? Considering that Singapore, Switzerland, South Korea, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Israel, Finland, Japan, Luxembourg, Norway and Belgium all have universal health care and use about same amount per capita to medical research than USA I would say that it is just what people believe. Your talking about proportional spending per capita? As in compared to the dollar or the local currency? Then even if they are likes, there is the question of what is being bought with that money. Bureaucracy and defensive institutional spending is a huge waste of money, especially in a stagnated market. Create markets for new medical research, but the delivery and applied institutions would get by much better if redundancy was removed and the cost of running intermediaries was cut out. Yeah propotional spending in medical r&d per capita valued in US dollars. Which is easiest comprasion to do because you can just compare amount money put in, but of course results are the thing that actually interest more, but that is much more difficult to compare, but in above mentioned countries medical r&d is done mostly by private companies with private money just like in USA, but of course every country has their own safety standards and bureaucracy how new medicines and such are approved, what kind research practices are allowed, when human trials are allowed, and so on. Sometimes intermediaries on acquisition side of things actually speed up appliance of new research because they force medical r&d companies develop relativelly affordable version of their inventions or risk lose their change on markets completely for their competitors. But of course sometime intermediaries do mistakes that end up to make things worse for everybody (like spending 200 million euros to medical database system that does not work). Edited July 31, 2018 by Elerond
Agiel Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 Think of all the HMO administration jobs that will disappear overnight when you introduce single-payer healthcare. Quote “Political philosophers have often pointed out that in wartime, the citizen, the male citizen at least, loses one of his most basic rights, his right to life; and this has been true ever since the French Revolution and the invention of conscription, now an almost universally accepted principle. But these same philosophers have rarely noted that the citizen in question simultaneously loses another right, one just as basic and perhaps even more vital for his conception of himself as a civilized human being: the right not to kill.” -Jonathan Littell <<Les Bienveillantes>> Quote "The chancellor, the late chancellor, was only partly correct. He was obsolete. But so is the State, the entity he worshipped. Any state, entity, or ideology becomes obsolete when it stockpiles the wrong weapons: when it captures territories, but not minds; when it enslaves millions, but convinces nobody. When it is naked, yet puts on armor and calls it faith, while in the Eyes of God it has no faith at all. Any state, any entity, any ideology that fails to recognize the worth, the dignity, the rights of Man...that state is obsolete." -Rod Serling
HoonDing Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 "Why is healthcare even a thing? I like people that don't get sick." Thanks Trump. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Guard Dog Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 (edited) Edited August 1, 2018 by Guard Dog "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
HoonDing Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 You can always print the money. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
injurai Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 You can always print the money. Inflating the currency, setting back people's property investments. You'll never see San Fransisco build new housing of the old guard can't cash out to foreign investors.
Gromnir Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 Trump claims Americans need ID to buy groceries. har har. as to cost o' healthcare... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/why-does-health-care-cost-so-much-in-america-ask-harvards-david-cutler disproportionate administrative costs is far and away the biggest culprit. is why single payer would be having similar disproportionate impact on lowering health care costs. is actual more impactful than would first seem given how each provider is negotiating costs separate. meds and procedures costs different for provider A than for B, and while government contracts is hardly a model o' streamlined efficiency, is not hard to see how larger contracts for meds and services in bulk is tending to reduce cost per unit. able to buy 1 million widgets instead o' 100 or 1000 predictable reduces per widget cost. our healthcare professionals make ridiculous amounts compared to the rest o' the world, but our medical training also costs ridiculous. cut doctor and nurse pay by third or even half w/o dealing with costs o' edumacation would be pointless. unfortunately, as with all healthcare issues, to fix any one problem you need fix three other problems with broad social impact as well. agiel notes just how many people is employed in an administrative/billing capacity by healthcare providers, many o' whom would be out o' jobs with single pay. can't ignore such folks, can you? also, and it may seem cold blooded to mention (but am admitted a bit cold-blooded at times) is our understanding the typical american accrues 'tween 1/3 to 1/2 o' their total life health care costs during the last five years o' their life. gd mentions veterinary medicine as a more reasonable model. got a friend who were a veterinarian for many years and large % o' her practice were simple the euthanization o' pets who were too old or whose treatment woulda' been too expensive to consider. as practical as it would be to adopt the veterinarian model, am doubting it gets much support, for what should be obvious reasons. age issue is also predictable exacerbated by our legal system 'cause every time grandpa (likely on blood thinners for afib or somesuch) gets a bump on the noggin, if he gots enough healthcare coverage he will likely get an mri. given malpractice issues, US doctors treat defensively and expensively to cover their arses... jic. etc. the healthcare problem is not a problem but rather a multitude o' problems which touch many other facets o' the American economy and American values. blame government. blame pharma. blame doctors or lawyers or lizard people from utrizaximaz VI. whatever. problem is big and solution won't come from any single and simple change. fix any one thing and chances are you break three other equal vital parts o' the economy. is why nobody has fixed yet. failure to fix ain't so much 'cause o' government incompetence or capitalist greed but is rather a result o' the problem itself being overwhelming. need for situation to get bad enough before people is willing to consider the truly drastic measures needed to fix. meanwhile, national debt continues to grow. is a situation made considerable worse by obamacare... a situation not being addressed by the current administration. HA! Good Fun! 2 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Guard Dog Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 Oh for crying out loud. It is a major stretch to suggest that example in any way endorses the compulsory euthanasia of older people who are not worth treating according to the care giver. Yes that is a part of vet care but I think you know what is NOT what I was talking about. There are, by a cursory google search, 7 different companies that are selling over 30 different vet insurance plans that anyone can buy anywhere in this country and Canada. That is six more carriers and 27 more plans than are available to ACA customers buying from an exchange in Tipton County TN. There are over 300 veterinary clinics, hospitals, and home visit services in Tipton & Shelby Counties that will see my dog for anything up to and including complex surgery within the next 48 hours. The lead time to see my doctor for a sinus infection is a week. All of those facilities are competing against each other for my business. That keeps the prices lower. They all offer multiple options for care from basic to levels some human hospitals would envy. The place I took Tommy to see the Canine Oncologist was unlike anything I'd ever seen. Those seven insurance providers are also competing with each other to sell their products. That means a varied selection of plans and prices. Competition has been bred out of the human healthcare system by design. And to top it all Veterinary clinics don't need to worry about punitive damages over mistakes. They are on the hook for actual damages just like everyone else. This is all stuff human healthcare no longer has and a big reason why the cost are spiraling out of control. Not the sole reason, but one of them. Notice I said compulsory euthanasia. Literal death panels. That is the fear many people have of government healthcare. While I seriously doubt that would ever happen I also don't think the concern is all that far fetched. However, it should be an option for people with terminal illnesses to consider themselves. If your life isn't yours to extend or end as your personal ethics determine we can go ahead and dispense with the notion of being free altogether. If we can't make choices for ourselves then we really are just livestock. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Gromnir Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 (edited) Oh for crying out loud. It is a major stretch to suggest that example in any way endorses the compulsory euthanasia of older people who are not worth treating according to the care giver. Yes that is a part of vet care but I think you know what is NOT what I was talking about. it is a major oversight to ignore how different veterinary care is from human healthcare. one o' the fundamental differences in treatment o' non human animals is care for beasts is viewed with practical considerations which is deemed inhumane when speaking o' people. give us all the anecdotal you want, but every time the old dog falls you do not take it to get an mri, and no matter what kinda insurance you got for rex, am doubting it covers the equivalent o' stage iv pancreatic cancer in a human. no doubt hospital stays would be much cheaper if we could house patients in accommodations similar to a veterinary hospital, eh? of course if your pet needs a transplant there is an organ donor system for such, no? gd's pets no doubt have organ donor option checked on their driver's licenses. *snort* oh, and the reason why animal doctors is only on the hook for actual damages is 'cause animals is freaking property. for chrissakes, am hoping we do not need explain how fundamental different the law views people as 'posed to toasters, bags of grain or fido. we treat humans and animals fundamental different, and much o' the cost difference is attributable to such differences. overlook or ignore such differences is requiring magoo-like myopia. oh, and the death panel stuff has been a boogeyman for a long time. proof. show proof. when obamacare were being debated, the spectre o' death panels were frequent seen haunting public debates on the evils o' socialized medicine. am pretty certain there is still a million dollar prize for legit proof o' ghosts. do same for death panels and money would be equal safe. https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/dec/18/politifact-lie-year-death-panels/ https://www.vox.com/2017/2/12/14588086/death-panel-town-hall https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/death-panels-obamacare_us_571503d1e4b0060ccda3c0a9 https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/scientocracy/201301/why-it-is-so-difficult-kill-the-death-panel-myth HA! Good Fun! ps (edit) is a talking heads song which plays in our noggin frequent when gd posts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=068AFYvd58E Edited August 1, 2018 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Recommended Posts