Subclasses: Poor design makes them undesirable.

[Jorian Drake]

Unbroken is a great multiclass option, to be honest I believe some subclasses are designed with clear multiclassing combo choices in mind

[damagai]

I'm fine with Black Jacket since it's clearly meant to be a gimmick sub. It's not meant to compete, it's there for fun reasons mostly.

 

I actually think Black Jacket is really good, in a party anyway.

 

Certain modals are really powerful. Being able to quickly debuff an enemy's Fort and Will is great, and there's no excuse with a BJ on not overpenning constantly. In a party Constant Recovery isn't as useful as solo since you'll likely get healing spillover from your other companions. Really the worst part about it is how micro-intensive it is.

[Sotnik]

 

I'm fine with Black Jacket since it's clearly meant to be a gimmick sub. It's not meant to compete, it's there for fun reasons mostly.

 

I actually think Black Jacket is really good, in a party anyway.

 

Certain modals are really powerful. Being able to quickly debuff an enemy's Fort and Will is great, and there's no excuse with a BJ on not overpenning constantly. In a party Constant Recovery isn't as useful as solo since you'll likely get healing spillover from your other companions. Really the worst part about it is how micro-intensive it is.

 

Is there a way to set AI for weapon switch?

[Arranvin]

Did you overlook that Livegiver gets +5 Power Level for Rejuvenation spells while shifted? This stacks with all other PL boosts (like the +2 he already gets and stuff like Wellspring of Life) and makes his healing *extremely* powerful. The -5 after shifting is an ok trade-off for that.

 

The Unbroken is actually a good subclass. +10 PEN on disengagement is huge and nearly always leads to overpenetration with disengagement attacks which means that they deal +30% damage combined with the +100% the usual disengagement attack deals. This leads to a situation where enemies will not leave the Unbroken once he engaged because it's too painful. Try not to think "superhard tank" but "supersticky tank". If you combine engagement abilities/items with Cleaving Stance: whatch the gib once one of your enemies disengages... Also very nice for multiclassing with stuff like Streetfighter (Heating Up, Riposte) or Barbarian (Yells,Blood Thirst) as somebody else wrote. Tanks that play the taunting teethless tincan don't work in PoE/Deadfire.

 

Why is the Sharpshooter supposed to be a glass cannon? He trades recovery speed for accuracy/penetration with ranged weapons, that's all. Totally legit. Then, if you look at reloading weapons (from crossbows to guns) you will see that they have no recovery... exactly the weapons you would expect to see on a Sharpshooter will give him no penalty at all.

 

So some of your complaints don't seem to be justified.

 

Black Jacket or Corpse Eater need some rework, I agree. The malus of BJ is too big for the rel. weak bonus (since the PEN/AR ratio was changed). And the Corpse Eater's increased costs are too high at the first 1/3 of the game.

 

What I also think is pretty poorly balanced are most wizard subclasses (loss of a whole school is too much), Darcozzi Paladini (the Flame Shield is too weak), Mage Slayer (why the malus on non-spell/non-"magic" buffs like Frenzy?), vanilla Chanter (why not always take Troubadour?) and some others.

The Sharpshooter also suffers -10 deflection as well, which is fairly steep considering that the bonuses he gains are somewhat diminished in terms of overall dps by the recovery penalty (unless like you say you're using a gun).

[mammasaura]

I really like the barbarian in poe2, berserker is the best subclass, crit conversion and the bonuses you get from frenzy are amazing; the confusion malus is marginal and you can build the character around that: being a drug addict, multiclassing with any that gives you smart, or resistence.

I found Mage Slayer effective, there isn't the malus on buff duration despite of wiki says that.
The spell resistance is a trade-off, it's a malus because works vs attacking spell too.
Spell disruption is nice.
Mage Slayer needs to be built around its spell resistance. Abilities give you bonuses, passively, bypass the resistance: chanter's invocations or phrases, cipher's spells, some paladin's abilities.
No scrolls, no potions doesn't mean you can't use consumables. Drugs are strong.
Does need a buff? Don't know, surely you need to multiclass the Mage Slayer, so if one of the other (sub)classes is going to be nerfed (chanter, cipher-no-way-lol, paladin), Mage Slayer will need a touch.
At the moment, I don't find that bad, can't be paired to berserker, but nothing can. It's a nice alternative to the base barbarian.

Corpse Eater's rage higher cost totally nullifies the rage acquired by consuming flesh and you can't always consume because you need specific characters and a specific state (dead).
"Taste of the Hunt" is its evolution, multiclass druid and live the dream.

Edited May 22, 2018 by mammasaura

[Edolamberto]

 

 

I should add, I am playing heavily modded. POTD has 2x hp, aggressive level scaling, less accuracy/defense from levels, less xp overall. So, sustain is favored over burst, cause it's just not possible to burst much down off of like 1 or 2 attacks.

Can you share your method/files for increasing PotD health? I found the other mods for increased difficulty but not that one.

 

 

It's in the global.gamedatabundle search for "pathofthedamned" it will take you to the difficulty settings. It allows you to change HP and damage at each difficulty level. The AI already hits really hard, and has massive accuracy/deflection advantages with the mods I'm running, so I just boosted HP and not damage!

 

what value you suggest to put in HP? 2 or more?

[GuyNice]

 

 

 

I should add, I am playing heavily modded. POTD has 2x hp, aggressive level scaling, less accuracy/defense from levels, less xp overall. So, sustain is favored over burst, cause it's just not possible to burst much down off of like 1 or 2 attacks.

Can you share your method/files for increasing PotD health? I found the other mods for increased difficulty but not that one.

 

 

It's in the global.gamedatabundle search for "pathofthedamned" it will take you to the difficulty settings. It allows you to change HP and damage at each difficulty level. The AI already hits really hard, and has massive accuracy/deflection advantages with the mods I'm running, so I just boosted HP and not damage!

 

what value you suggest to put in HP? 2 or more?

 

I edited this in my game to 1.5 but I don't think it's working. Maybe it's just for ships (I didn't test extensively). Enemies I fought were just as easy as before.

[Edolamberto]

 

 

 

 

I should add, I am playing heavily modded. POTD has 2x hp, aggressive level scaling, less accuracy/defense from levels, less xp overall. So, sustain is favored over burst, cause it's just not possible to burst much down off of like 1 or 2 attacks.

Can you share your method/files for increasing PotD health? I found the other mods for increased difficulty but not that one.

It's in the global.gamedatabundle search for "pathofthedamned" it will take you to the difficulty settings. It allows you to change HP and damage at each difficulty level. The AI already hits really hard, and has massive accuracy/deflection advantages with the mods I'm running, so I just boosted HP and not damage!

what value you suggest to put in HP? 2 or more?

I edited this in my game to 1.5 but I don't think it's working. Maybe it's just for ships (I didn't test extensively). Enemies I fought were just as easy as before.

it is working, I noticed an increase in HP setting the value to 2

[Dorftek]

Berserker with mordryn sword = subclass without malus

[KangaxxTheLich]

The Beguiler subclass for Ciphers seems heavily undercooked comparted to the other 2 options. Both the benefitis and penalties are relatively minor changes. What you gain when attacking/targetting someone who's susceptible to sneak attack is so minor, it feels somewhat like a hassle to go through the process of flanking/debuffing enemies. It doesn't feel anywhere as good or interesting as Soul Blade or Ascendant. 

[JerekKruger]

Berserker with mordryn sword = subclass without malus

Not quite. You still can't see your health, you still take raw damage over time and you're forced to use Mordwyr. That said it's pretty close to complete removal of the downsides of the subclass.

[Voltron]

Agree that a lot of subclasses just does not make sense. For example Corpse Eater on Barbarian. Not only it's useless and can't be use often but just health back? I mean in game you have pretty muhc TONS of healing potions/scrolls etc. If you do not solo- you have so much healing from priest alone that why is that even here.

 

I could understand something like "Devour the flesh of your enemy to gain his strength! Cropse Eater get XX bonus to damage, recovery and XX X after tasting the flesh and blood of his enemies". 

 

But current is just stupid. Same Mage Slayer

[Nemesis7884]

I think you look at subclasses too much from a solo perspective instead of them as part from a group

[dunehunter]

Agree that a lot of subclasses just does not make sense. For example Corpse Eater on Barbarian. Not only it's useless and can't be use often but just health back? I mean in game you have pretty muhc TONS of healing potions/scrolls etc. If you do not solo- you have so much healing from priest alone that why is that even here.

 

I could understand something like "Devour the flesh of your enemy to gain his strength! Cropse Eater get XX bonus to damage, recovery and XX X after tasting the flesh and blood of his enemies". 

 

But current is just stupid. Same Mage Slayer

 

You can eat their corpse before they resurrect!! Just kidding

[PacoTaco]

After thinking entirely TOO hard about what class I wanted to go to with my main character, I formed my own opinions on the subclasses. There's some weird balance issues with some of them.

 

For example, ALL of the Barbarian's classes are kinda ****. Berserker has some amazing buffs with Frenzy, but they lose out on the final "upgrades" of Frenzy that can extend time as long as you keep killing. Corpse Eating just adds another bit of healing in an already pretty damn full healing repertoire. Mage Slayer is just about useless.

 

Except for Evoker (or Transmuter for certain builds,) all the wizard classes kind of suck. The entire point of the Wizard class is the huge amount of flexibility in the spells. Strangely, I think Wizards need a buff in general. Priests, honestly, make a better Wizard. To a certain extent, so do Druids (especially from a DPS standpoint.)

 

Blackjackets kind of have one big build they can do, but, other than that, they kind of just exist.

 

Soulblade exists almost entirely as a multiclass. It can't tank, the health pool is too small, and it has no real melee attacks besides one...that uses focus instead of building it. Honestly, so does Beguilar. If Ascendant didn't build focus as fast as they do, they would be in that category as well. But, you can at least make Ascendant a single-class that hilariously destroys everything after getting Ascendancy in 1-2 attacks with Frost Seeker. Mind Blades becomes very, very OP at that point, and you can basically dominate the entire enemy force since it doesn't cost any focus during that time.

 

Trickster almost exists so you can avoid making a spellblade, but the main focus of rogues, something even the Swashbuckler has, gets nerfed quite heavily.

 

In theory, all the subclasses are suppose to be balanced to still make main class appealing. In practice, nearly all the main classes are inferior to the subclasses, with the exception being Wizard (unless you're making an Orge-build that really should be a Druid or an Evoker,) Barbarian (as you only get the Frenzy upgrades if you take the main class or the two **** sub-class choices,) Druid (it's actually balanced,) and maybe monk (Actually balanced...except for maybe Helwalker due to Might being additive.)

 

Chanters have no real reason not to choose a subclass, Ciphers have no reason not to, Fighters are better off as Devoted or Unbroken, rogues lose out on too much not choosing on, Paladins/Priests have no choice, and Rangers have one useful subclass or class in general that is restricted to a companion.

 

Despite that, they aren't really poor design (except in the situations where not choosing a subclass is actually one of the best options.) Everything else is OP as hell. Except the Rangers. The Ranger class got the short end of the stick.

[Myrtillo]

 

Why is the Sharpshooter supposed to be a glass cannon? He trades recovery speed for accuracy/penetration with ranged weapons, that's all. Totally legit. Then, if you look at reloading weapons (from crossbows to guns) you will see that they have no recovery... exactly the weapons you would expect to see on a Sharpshooter will give him no penalty at all.

 

 

 

I thought recovery bonus/malus were affecting reload time too, the difference between reload and classic recovery being that you can cancel reload with an action.

Did I understand something wrong ?

[Purudaya]

Assassin would be a good subclass if smoke veil didn't completely fail half the time. At level 19, the only rogue active I used in my assassin/shattered pillar multiclass was confounding blind - would've been better off taking vanilla rogue/shattered pillar in the long run.

[Killyox]

Let's talk about some of these bizarre tradeoffs that are offered by the various subclasses.

 

To start out, let's examine some GOOD subclass, ones with tradeoffs that are balanced and desirable. First the Assassin (Rogue). The Assassin gets bonuses to penetration, accuracy, and critical damage when attacking from stealth. The tradeoff is a +15% penalty to all damage sustained. This is a classic "glass cannon" design, which gains DPS at the cost of survivability. It's fair and balanced and desirable. 

 

Another example of a good subclass is Fury (Druid). They sacrifice their healing spells for bonus penetration, range, and a superior shapeshift form. You can debate whether or not this sacrifice is worth it, but that's up to you. The fundamental design is good. Trading healing/survivability for DPS is conceptually fair and balanced.

 

Now to examine a BAD subclass. First off, the Lifegiver (Druid). Normally a well-designed healer specialization is the inverse of a glass cannon. They sacrifice DPS for an increase to healing/survivability. The Lifegiver has 2 penalties, one of which satisfies this criteria: (1) Lifegivers can't summon minions. That's fine. If this was the only penalty, then Lifegiver would be an excellent subclass. (2) After shapeshift ends, Lifegivers suffer a -5 penalty to the power level of all healing spells (permanently, until the end of combat). This is insane. What kind of healing specialization is this, that's able to cripple its own healing abilities? A terrible one.

 

Another example of a badly designed subclass is the Unbroken (Fighter). This is supposed to be a "tank" specialization, meaning they sacrifice DPS for defense/survivability. Unbroken gets some modest tanking bonuses: +1 engagement and Shield Mastery (+1 armor). But they also get a mediocre DPS ability, increasing penetration on disengagement attacks. This is fairly pointless, as most tanks deal very little damage. And the tradeoffs for these mediocre bonuses? Unbroken take penalties not to DPS but to defense (!) and mobility, which are two essential tanking traits. What the hell. Who came up with this terrible decision? The -15 penalty to Reflex seriously outweighs +1 engagement and Shield mastery combined. Thus choosing Unbroken for your subclass essentially makes you a inferior tank. What terrible class design.

 

Sharpshooter (Ranger) is another subclass that is supposed to be a glass cannon, but suffers a needless penalty to its DPS: slowed recovery time. It may not be a huge, game-breaking problem, but it is another symptom of the fundamentally flawed reasoning behind Pillars 2's subclass design.

 

These are just a few examples, to illustrate my grievances. But it doesn't end there. To me it seems that virtually all subclasses have serious design problems. Sometimes the bonuses are too weak and the penalties are too severe (e.g., Black Jacket Fighter). Sometimes the tradeoff exists only to support a single multiclass combination (Beguiler Cipher), instead of being an independently viable subclass. Sometimes they take away half your spells just for sh!ts and giggles (see all Wizard subclasses). The list goes on.

 

The bottom line is that it's usually a bad idea to choose a subclass. Not always, but often. Because instead of offering intelligent tradeoffs that allow you to specialize effectively in a given role, the subclasses tend to punish and handicap you for no good reason. I hope class design will be reevaluated in the coming months. 

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Despite my complaints, I am a big fan of Pillars 2. I care about the game because I love it and I want it to be the best. 

 

-A fan

Lifegiver - disagree, it has +2 power levels to rejuvenation just like that, +5 for a total of +7 while shape shifted, obviously with a huge drawback but it's still at -3 considering you normally have +2. You just have to use it when it matters. Also pick Nature Godlike for another easy +2 power levels.

 

Unbroken - disagree, with riposte, disengagement bonus + talent, items + engagement (like sword +2, armor +1) and Mob Stance they absolutely tear enemies to pieces. Mob Stance + Reckless brigandine + Armored Grace and couple it with streetfighter for overkill and he will mince everything really fast. Also due to ArPen mobs avoid disengaging him. -15 reflex is so ridiculously easy to make up for it's not even a penalty in my eyes. speed, just take 15% stride, not like there are better options. Rest of the party can cover, but in geral he doesn't move much because he doesn't have to. + abilities that let you move around if you multi with rogue.

 

Sharpshooter - no idea, haven't played this one.

[Verde]

I don't see any pt in a Mage Slayer in any game. Not in BG2, not here. Not being able to use potions is redic and spell resistance to the plethora of support spells is even worse. For what? Being able to interrupt the random spellcaster? You have mages and many other tools to pick from.

 

I'm running a BJ/Streetfighter Swashy. Is he a top tier power gaming build? Probably not, but on Veteran with a full party but he is fun and effective.

 

Wizards got straight **** on in this game. I dont understand not being able to edit Grimoires. Or such harsh penalties even for a single class.

 

Luckily some sub classes are really powerful, like all the Druid ones. Running a Shifter now and the animal forms are nasty. And for the most part, the Rogue ones which single and multi really well. Streetfighter for example you just gotta think of him differently and check out the Blunderbuss modal.

 

Cipher subs seem cool but man is that a boring class to play until later levels imho. Priest have cool subs but I never play em.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Verde

[Killyox]

I don't see any pt in a Mage Slayer in any game. Not in BG2, not here. Not being able to use potions is redic and spell resistance to the plethora of support spells is even worse. For what? Being able to interrupt the random spellcaster? You have mages and many other tools to pick from.

 

I'm running a BJ/Streetfighter Swashy. Is he a top tier power gaming build? Not but he is fun as an offtank swashbuckler, exactly what he should be.

 

Wizards got straight **** on in this game. I dont understand not being able to edit Grimoires. Or such harsh penalties even for a single class.

 

Luckily some sub classes are really powerful, like all the Druid ones. And for the most part, the Rogue ones which single and multi really well. Streetfighter for example you just gotta think of him differently and check out the Blunderbuss modal.

 

Cipher subs seem cool but man is that a boring class to play until later levels imho. Priest have cool subs but I never play em.

I maybe used 2 potions thus far on POTD. Depends on your party.

 

Resistance affecting friendly spells is bad though.

[Verde]

To what extent does it affect?

[youspoonybard]

See, to me, Devoted is the lacking subclass. It's basically "I will take a hit to bypass the armor / penetration / proficiency system". I don't know why you'd play a Devoted over any of the other three available fighters.

[Boeroer]

Erm... because you get +2 PEN and increased crit damage and that's pretty good? Especially it you (as a player) don't like to switch weapons a lot. 

 

What do you mean with "I will take a hit"?

Edited May 22, 2018 by Boeroer

[youspoonybard]

Erm... because you get +2 PEN and increased crit damage and that's pretty good? Especially it you (as a player) don't like to switch weapons a lot. 

 

What do you mean with "I will take a hit"?

 

I mean, you pretty much summed it up in your response. There are many situations where you can get significantly more than +2 pen by switching weapon types. Crit damage is OK but the option to switch weapons to overpen on every swing is significantly better than it. And that's not counting being able to support the party with Club / Flail / Morningstar / Mace / Pike / Hatchet / Wand modals or Blast AoE.

 

Devoted lets you avoid engaging with these systems and gives you a weapon that's good enough to always contribute. To me, it's the "Charge ahead!" option on ship encounters - I understand why it's there for other people, but I *like* engaging with these mechanics, and can't see myself ever choosing the subclass.

[pi2repsion]

 

Unbroken - disagree, with riposte, disengagement bonus + talent, items + engagement (like sword +2, armor +1) and Mob Stance they absolutely tear enemies to pieces. Mob Stance + Reckless brigandine + Armored Grace and couple it with streetfighter for overkill and he will mince everything really fast. Also due to ArPen mobs avoid disengaging him. -15 reflex is so ridiculously easy to make up for it's not even a penalty in my eyes. speed, just take 15% stride, not like there are better options. Rest of the party can cover, but in geral he doesn't move much because he doesn't have to. + abilities that let you move around if you multi with rogue.

 

Unbroken/Shieldbearer of St. Elga is another ridiculously tough combination.  You lose the lovely damage from Riposte and other Streetfighter goodies, but gain extra disengagement and all your defenses covered (and more!) plus an aura and nice passives. And everybody loves an extra Paladin aura.