Jediphile

Well, this topic is here now and can serve the purpose of discussing the jedi academy game. I'm less certain of how many will respond to it, though. Not that I haven't played and liked jedi academy myself - I have and did - but I consider the KotOR games to be better games, and in either event I have moved on and left jedi academy behind. I suspect this may be true of many others here. But we'll see. If it's true that people here need to discuss jedi academy, then there should be a fair amount of responses to a topic about it, methinks.

In that sense, yes, but then even the Borg were that original - they're basically just techno-vampires and little else (infected people will themselves become vampi... er, borg). If you can give your alien race a similar twist, then it's not a problem. For example, they could be braineating zombies instead of vampires, or they could be scientists always hunting for live specimens to experiment on... Nasty either way... A rival pirate with his own crew to compete with the PCs is a very good idea. If he succeeds in stealing victory from the PCs, especially if he does it by stealing their loot, then you can really get the players going Now that you say Federation, take a look at the plot behind the old BBC show Blake's 7, which had an evil Federation as badguys. Lots of inspiration to steal from there, I think, since the show is so ancient that nobody will know it. The main badguy in the first couple of seasons was even this complete psycho of commander hunting the good guys for the evil Federation called Travis. And you're welcome.

Uhm, since all enemies scale according to your experience level, it actually makes all the difference in the game...

Lucky for us too - we might actually get a finished product

They planned it, yes, but there were a number of lay-offs, the initial plans were dropped, and LA has taken a lot of flak over the unfinished nature of KotOR2. So while I'm hoping for KotOR3, I won't be holding my breath until LA actually announces it.

I swear, sometimes I wish that KotOR3 has a scene where Revan is beaten by a gungan scoundrel and Exile by two gizka just to prove that it's the writers who decide the powerlevels and not some bloody stats... <_<

I'm not sure about Mira, but Atton can definitely still use his after turning into a jedi without being restricted in certain powers - I usually let him keep his jacket throughout the game.

1. Why? Because it is trolling. And you are swallowing the bait whole. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're right - that's why I asked a question instead of blowing my top off... Well, that sure puts me in right place and proves how much of a fanboy I am - I guess I'll run off to the rain now Anyway, since it's quite apparent to me that you're either unwilling or unable to participate in a constructive discussion, I shall take your advice and not listen to any more of your pointless postings [hits the "ignore" button]

Strictly speaking, LS ending is if you destroy Malachor V, and DS ending is if you let it continue to exist and stay to explore the Sith mysteries there... I'm not sure at which point which ending you get is set, though. However, it seems to me that given people can apparently kill all the jedi masters and still get the LS ending, then it would seem it is not set until you reach Malachor V. Has anyone gotten Force Crush and still had the LS ending or vice versa, gained Force Enlightenment and then the DS ending?

That's presuming that "essays of voer 4000 words" is a major undertaking. It may be for you, but it would seem it is not for neither Hekate nor myself, since we are able to post so many lengthy posts in such a short time. Pardon me, but please explain to me how this is not trolling or flaming... Besides, who is more the foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?

Because

[Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] *** Scathing sarcasm alert! ... Warning! Warning! Rhetoric flailling wildly!! *** You know, I don't think putting a ** sarcasm ** note in front of anything makes what you say afterwards any less problematic. If I say something really insulting or inflammatory, then I cannot invalidate it at the end just by putting a smiley there either... I was once on a board where some guy thought he could say whatever he liked to people and then avoid the fallout by using that tactic. The results were not pretty... [shudder] [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Why is it that if Visas is subserviant to Exile, she has to do everything s/he tells her to? Because that's what the word means: "adj 1: compliant and obedient to authority" And before the word we used was "submission", which doesn't make it any better: "The act of submitting to the power of another" Neither definition fits Visas, as far as I can tell, since she is perfectly willing to openly refuse the exile's wishes. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] And here i thought we were to "You shouldn't think of it as a struggle or competition. The point of the topic is not for one of us (or anyone else here) to "win", but us - collectively - to search for the truth or at least establish a concensus in some form". And congratulations on your victory, have a cigar. You're allowed to use sarcasm, but I'm not allowed to be self-ironic?!? That was below the board... and uncalled for... :"> [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Brianna: "you did not have feelings for her... did you?" Exile: whatever incarnation of "no" If he did, that would be a lie. Generally, honesty would be the best way to begin a relationship, i would think Ah, so if I meet a girl I like and she asks me if the dress she wears makes her look fat, then I should always answer truthfully regardless? Sorry, but that's always a trick question [Jediphile] That's always the problem with these things. We have no choice but to look at what is said, because that is our only frame of reference, but we sometimes forget that just because a character says it does not make it true. I believe that about Mical's claim that there were no one left to teach him after the Exile left, for example [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]*sigh* In the interest of not derailing the topic, I will say only that your comment has not gone unnoticed... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i meant as accepted pillars of light and goodness since in our understanding of reality, there is no generally cross-cultural accepted notion of what virtuous warriors would be as Jedi are in the SW universe. i specifically objected to the Reagan comparisson because, well, it's Reagan, but also because of the dubious nature of politicians and that in the accepted goodness category, it is lacking. KotOR2 would seem to suggest otherwise, since we hear repeatedly from the "common people" that they see the jedi and sith as just the same - as religious fanatics at opposite sides. No, the jedi are definitely not beloved guardians of light and truth during this age of Star Wars. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Vrook has a low opinion of Exile. Master Kavar did not, nor did Masters Zez-Kai Ell, Vandar, and Atris. You're forgetting the timetable, which is fairly significant here. Before the Mandalorian Wars, Vrook had a low opinion of the exile, Zez-Kai Ell and Vandar seem indifferent or impressed, while Atris and Kavar had high thoughts. When the exile was exiled, however, we know that they all had a low opinion, except Vandar, whom we know nothing about, although it would seem strange if he did not disapprove as much as the others. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] No, it would be like saying you admire Ghandi for his intelect. Something he naturally possesses and cannot be altered through working on it. How would I even know that he is intelligent if he doesn't do anything significant with it? Besides, would you admire someone for being born into a a particular gender, skin color, class, wealth or whatever? No offense to you, but to me that sounds awfully close to racism, which is why I'm so set against it. Sure you might admire an athlete, but not until he has won races. That's trained skill, not innate ability that he was just born with. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i used "hot" in the slang definition meaning: attractive, sexy, good looking... Not "hot" as in passionate, warm, friendly.... Still don't see how that applies to Atris... [Jediphile] Atris is blame-shifting. No doubt about that. And she does it in either case. As Kreia tells her, "you betrayed yourself, don't blame the Exile." But let's not forget those Sith holocrons. I doubt they helped matters any... Sure, Atris should have known better and controlled her emotions better, but she is like Denethor in Lord of the Rings (the novel, not the film), who has been secretly using the palantir and slowly been eroded by its corrupting effect. The sith holocrons have done the same with Atris - they have twisted all her unresolved emotions into something perverse and overpowering, and the relationship with the Exile is a particularly unclosed subject to exploit for them. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]Be that as it may, the Sith holocrons affect Atris' hero worship as well. Have I said otherwise? I do recall saying, "in either case"... Yes, I did say that... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] She didn't say "you have been on my mind", she says "you have been a presence in my mind". The implication is they felt eachother's presences, essences if you will, in eachother's psyches kinda as if they are Force bonded, especially since Sion had just spoken of how she, her presence, is something he feels inside himself. That's an interpretation, and if that is to be considered valid, then my interpretation of the Atris-Exile relationship would seem just as relevant. You avoided this in your last post, so let me bring it up again. Early on we have the scene with one handmaiden sister talking to Atris about the male exile, which is different from the female exile: Atris: "The exile reminded me of something... I had forgotten." Handmaiden sister: "Forgive me, mistress... but I must ask. The exile... I have never seen another effect you so strongly. Did you care for him once?" Atris: {Slight bitterness, doesn't want to admit she loved the player}"The Jedi have no such attachments.As always, he will do as he wills, and the galaxy... and the feelings of others... can burn for all he cares. The day we judged him, I stood in the chamber, and he was... he was so right. He was so certain of it, I doubted myself. He chose Revan over the Jedi, over the Council... over...{unspoken "me" at end}" Now, you have said yourself that this proves that Atris loves the male Exile, but not insists that this remains immaterial because it is not said out loud in spite of Brianna's question to the male Exile about having feelings for Atris (which clearly are not the same as for the female Exile). Now, I would argue that since I saw the above scene and I play the Exile, then it is supposed to be something I can presume that the Exile is also aware of, or else that scene would not have been on-screen (sort of a bit how Kreia tells Atton about the wars on Dxun - Exile is not there to hear it, but clearly s/he is fully aware of it all). Still, even if I accept that the exile might not know, we still have the following possibilities in the end, when the Exile finally faces Atris. Atris: "It is because I care for you. And I suspect that you alone hold that place in her heart, where nothing else lives. And that is why you are the only one who can stop the destruction to come." Now, again, given that Atris admires the female Exile and loves the male, that sentence does not carry the same meaning. As for the Exile returning those feelings, he/she can, during the same conversation, say: Exile: "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." Again, it's the same for an exile of either gender, but since it's just admiration for the female and love for the male, it does not carry the same meaning. QED. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] To get more specific; someone a person thinks of and has whatever feelings for is more personally significant to said person than one said person does not have those thoughts about nor feelings for. [Jediphile] Only the player can tell whether this is true, and I never believed that the Exile could have true emotions for Sion or that Sion was still capable of them himself. He's just a dark, twisted being longing back to something he remembers from his life and which is now lost. That's not true love, only the shadow of it. And I cannot believe that the Exile can love a being a dark as Sion is, because if she is DS, then she won't care - there is no true love among the Sith - and if she is LS, then all the evil things he does will scare her off to such an extent that no true emotions will ever grow to the surface. So it's all doomed either way. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]i don't see how there can be any doubt about my previous statement. Someone Exile thinks about and has feelings for is more important to Exile than a person Exile does not think about nor have feelings for. That is pretty much a universal truth, i would think. Ah, but what are we talking about here? Are we talking universal truths and general terms, or are we talking about these specific characters in this specific plot? If we do the former, then I'll accept your statement as true, but I would also see it as trite and irrelevant, since nobody is likely to disagree with it as a general principle. If we're talking Sion and Exile, however, then it's a question of whether the principle applies at all to this specific situation. Hence my answer, "only the player can tell if that is true." I would have to accept that the feelings are there between Exile and Sion to accept that your statement is fitting, and as you know, I don't. Be careful about applying very broad generalizations to specific situations. The danger of making a flawed argument is huge. I mean, it is often wrong on principle. You may not think so in this case, but what if I said, "Everybody likes music. Britney Spears plays music. Therefore everybody loves Britney Spears." I doubt you'd let me get away with that, even if you did like Britney Spears [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i find difficulty in seeing consistency in what you have said. Just being DS does not make a person incapable of feeling love. Yuthura spoke of that in KotOR. Anakin felt love for Padme even when he was DS. But what is love? Are we talking about the act, the feelings, or the commitment? Anakin loved Padme, but he lost that love when he turned to the dark side. He says himself that he wants more and that he knows he shouldn't, but he still makes the choice to take power and allows Palpatine to use his love as a catalyst for turning him to evil. It seems unlikely to me that he felt true love as much as self-imposed delusion at this point, because how can he honestly expect Padme to love him after he has killed children and seeks to seize power and do away with the democracy that she clearly loves so much? And Yuthura was not completely lost to the dark side - like Juhani she was DS out of confusion and delusion and could be turned LS. I do not believe that the Sith know love in the sense that we usually think of it. Sure, they know passion, lust, and infatuation. But real love - the love that comes from commitment and dedication - takes trust, and that the Sith don't have. They may be able to feel love, but I don't think they can truly expeirence it. The jedi can feel and experience true love (as we saw for Anakin before his fall and for Jolee), only they are not allowed to embrace it. As Anakin says, "we are encouraged to love", although only to a point... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i did not know Atton could be player controlled. If he is then basically he has to win since if he doesn't the game goes to the "game over" screne since every party member dies. i don't understand how they could have his being mutilated then killed by Sion part in there since he would have to win... *confusion* As I understand it, you can play him and then either defeat or lose to Sion. If you lose, Atton dies. If you win, Atton lives. But I could very easily be mistaken. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] And you are right that a direct tie to Exile's past is significant. So are you now rescinding on your earlier dislike of using that as a comparisson basis? I fear I'm not going to step into your little trap. You know full well that what I said was a dismissal of your suggestion that Mical was somehow a more significant character because he had a direct tie to the Exile's past. Since the alternate character is Brianna, that suggests that she must therefore be less interesting since she has no such tie to the Exile's past. I dismissed that argument and said that it seemed unreasonable to assume that this made Brianna's story any less significant or compelling, and *then* I said that it would hurt the plot if *all* characters had to have a direct tie to the Exile's past for them to be interesting in the plot. That is not the same as the dislike that you mention. I'm afraid you're not going to score brownie points here. But thanks for playing... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] The argument Sion himself is incapable of having feelings would make this new point impossible. He cannot both be someone who is not capable of feeling and someone who logically should be more sincere to himself about what his feelings are. Which is why I think his alleged emotions make no sense and hurt the plot. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] We don't know if Sion and Exile have a history or not. Exile can't even remember the face of the guy who was supposed to be her/his padawan, nor the face of the guy who made the MSG and activated it eventhough Exile was looking right at Bao-Dur as s/he gave the activation order. While it can be asumed they do not have a tie since it isn't mentioned thus by default it would suggest it isn't there, since there is so much cut content, it is a possibility they may have had a backstory. What a nice "we don't know"-argument. Basically you're implying that because there is no evidence that Sion and Exile did not know each other in the past, then they probably did. No, you don't say it - you very carefully avoid saying it - but it is the unspoken conclusion, isn't it? I mean, what value does that observation have, if that's not the conclusion? That you very clearly avoided saying it, though, suggests to me that you know it is a flawed argument, and that we cannot presume anything from what we simply do not know. But I'll give you this much: If a past relationship between female Exile and the man that Sion *used to be* had been established, then the romance between them would make far more sense. It would have been a very convenient thing for the devs to do. But they didn't, and we have to live with it now. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Even with ignoring that possibility though, the notion Sion's feelings had not had time to become twisted and perverse seems rather weak since Sion's perspectives and perceptions are themselves twisted, thus his feelings for Exile would naturally begin twisted and perverse. Another "we don't know"-argument, basically... This one I really don't like, since it sounds to me like it suggests that we can do just anything with Sion because he's twisted, insane, and generally evil. As both a GM and an RPG-player, I *hate* it when the bad guys do cruel and stupid things just because, well, they're evil and that's what they do... Sorry, but that's how I feel about it. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] By the same token, dismissing Mical for having those feelings on the basis he was to be her padawan is then voided as well since it didn't happen and thus has no bearing on the conversation. That depends on how likely it is that it would have been a problem, had it come to pass. Given the examples of Jolee's wife and master Kae, it seems fairly obvious to me that there would more than likely have been trouble at some point. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]i just replayed that scene and Atris had just said "We are not the ones who taught her/him" to which Vash responded. Atris was speaking of herself not being to blame for Exile going to war against the Council's decree. Later in that conversation, as Atris is going on about Exile rather passionately, Zez-Kai Ell says "What would you have done with her/him Atris? Be mindful of your feelings..." which means he saw and/or felt Atris' feelings for Exile were too strong. Hence my point the Masters were aware she felt that strongly thus their not dealing with Atris' feelings makes for a disturbing plot hole. It is obvious Atris wasn't good at hiding her feelings as both Masters Vash and Zez-Kai Ell pointed out. Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone. It is quite obvious that Atris is disappointed and disapproving of the Exile in this scene. Sure, you and I know that there are other emotions at work, but the masters wouldn't. I see Vash, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell getting the same disapproval and frustration from Atris as they undoubtedly do from grumply old Vrook. I do not see Atris revealing her emotions of love or admiration for the exile in that scene, or rather, I don't see that they are in any way obvious to the other masters. She just seems disappointed, disapproving of the exile's actions. I also see her being angry and vengeful, which is why Zez-Kai Ell steps in and tells her to mind her feelings. Her love/admiration for the exile, however, is not displayed in an obvious manner IMHO. So I fear you'll have to look for your plothole elsewhere. These are not the droids you're looking for... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] There are such things as interventions. If a person isn't aware s/he is doing something wrong, than it needs to be brought to her/his attention. Just assuming Atris will figure it out is too dangerous for the Council to do. They may very well be arrogant, but they do not seem to have difficulty pointing out eachothers' flaws and weaknesses. You cannot help someone with a problem they deny they have. The first step towards healing is always to acknowledge that you have a problem, so I don't believe that an intervention would help until after Atris admits to herself that she has a problem. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i think supressing and denying as we are applying them are 2 different things. i am using supress mean to hold back and to push down. To deny means to ignore and to pretend it doesn't exist. So supressing is controlling them as in, not letting them control the person. Suppression is not what you say: "Psychiatry. Conscious exclusion of unacceptable desires, thoughts, or memories from the mind." If controlling emotions is suppression and is wrong or harmful, then the logical conclusion is that you must give in to your emotions to remain healthy. I doubt you think so, since it would then naturally follow, that you should never rein yourself in, when you get angry at someone. Self-control is not the same as suppression. Note the "expulsion of... from the mind" above. Bao-Dur doesn't put it out of his mind, because that would mean he consciously tries to forget it. He doesn't. He remembers his dreams, and he talks about them. That's dealing with your emotions. You don't have to give in to your emotions in order to deal with them. It is often enough that you acknowledge that you have them, even if you then decide not to act on them. For example, if I have a big crush on a girl, but decide not to pursue my infatuation because I see trouble down the road for various reasons, then that does not mean that I'm suppressing my emotions - I'm making a conscious choice not to pursue emotions that I accept that I have. And eventually those emotions will then just go away. As a human being, I have the choice overrule my emotions, not act on them, and then bring closure to them. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]He escaped of his own volition, meaning, he left the Sith and went to Nar Shadaa. He escaped because he knew he was going to be "drafted" into the dark jedi ranks soon whether he liked it or not... He may have left on his own volition, but I dare say he had rather a lot of *ahem* "persuasion" to leave... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]As above, i don't see why their responsibility for Malachor V has to be mutually exclusive. They are both responsible. Yes, they're both responsible, but neither of them can afford to see it that way. Well, at least Bao-Dur cannot, I'm still not certain about the Exile, who seems to be far more in denial. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]Bao-Dur can accept his role, it is only Exile's he cannot. He does not suddenly lose the power he has over the situation by aknowledging Exile's role. Yes, that's precisely what he would do, because that means it was the Exile's choice and not his, and that is worse than accepting that he had no choice himself. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]It seems to have more to do with how he sees Exile as opposed to his not accpeting Exile gave the Order. His stating he knows Exile gave the Order means he is aware of it, and when in the Jedification discussion he states he is aware he has to see Exile as not responsible indicates he sees Exile as sacrosanct. As someone he cannot attribute that responsibility to. i can't figure out why he needs to do that though. It's because he cannot hold the exile responsible without reducing his own sense of guilt and responsibility. Bao-Dur says that the Exile had no choice - s/he had to give the order, since it was war, and the Mandalorians had to be defeated, etc. The Exile was a general. Generals lead troops in battles, and so it was the Exile's job to kill the enemy by whatever means. He cannot blame the exile for doing his/her job. But he can blame himself for giving the Exile the MSG - he can blame himself for luring the Exile into giving them order by offering him/her a terrible weapon so powerful that no warlord could resist using it to kill millions. If only Bao-Dur had not created the bloody thing, all those people would not have died, the "general" would not have been exiled, the jedi would not have fallen to the dark side, and so and so forth. Yes, it's a bit of a self-delusion, of course, but given the choice between accepting that and accepting that Bao-Dur had no influence or significance on what was to happen, it becomes easier to accept the responsibility, because that at least means that you had some control over the outcome. The opposite means that you were powerless, that it could likely happen again because you probably still are, and that there is nothing you can do about it. In that situation most would rather prefer to believe that they do have a choice, even if heavy guilt comes with it. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i guess we have wildly different views on what "My life for yours" means. In this context it means, "I'm willing to give my life so that you can live, because you have the power to defeat the evil that we that must be overcome, while I do not, and therefore your survival is more essential than mine." At least it does to me. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i didn't see it. i saw she was single-mindedly focused on her task of bringing Exile to Nihilus. i heard her speak submissively to Exile. i heard her defer to Exile's will other than with the dancing for Vogga thing. i heard her voice concern and/or disagreement but back down at Exile's protest. Those are acts of submission. Not of equalitly. And there is no middle ground between submission and equality? Besides, I don't agree that this is submission for the reasons stated above. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Yes, she does state Exile could potentially defeat Nihilus when s/he is ready. She also suggests Nihilus could be defeated by Exile depending on one's interpretation of the sentence in bold. But her priority is to bring Exile to Nihilus in a state wherein Exile is either strong enough to defeat Nihilus or to be good feeding for Nihilus. That does not seem so likely to me... What would prevent Nihilus from letting the Exile grow stronger while captured until Nihilus was ready to "eat" the Exile? Besides, Visas senses in the first cutscene that the Exile is a threat, so if she is still loyal to Nihilus, it does not make much sense to allow the Exile to grow stronger, since that would just increase the odds that he might kill Nihilus. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] In other conversations she states she hates all life and came to view life the same way Nihilus did when he made her see. In this paragraph, she states Exile is important to her for the potential Exile has by virtue of the unique quality s/he has of being a Force wound. Visas knows nothing about the Exile's force wound until Exile tells her after the meeting with the masters. She just knows that the exile is a threat to Nihilus. And I don't see her hating all life. I just see her not daring to see the worth in it until after Nihilus is destroyed. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]It is Exile's nothingness she sees as precious, rare, and as having the ability to destroy everything. She is not willing to let that go to waste by Exile confronting Nihilus too soon. But the very line you put into bold type can be interpreted a different way: as her saying there is the chance Exile will be able to destroy the Force since Exile would have to defeat Nihilus in order to do so. That's Kreia's particular hobby-horse, not Visas' [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] She is willing to accept death because Exile tells her to which is his, in essence, telling her he does not value her since Nihilus can be defeated without sacrificing Visas. She accepts this and thus commits suicide. The option he has to just walk away from her as she is lying dying emphasizes this. You cannot conclude something about the Exile in general based on a DS act that the exile may or may not choose. And even if the LS exile did this, we cannot speculate that Visas was killed just because the exile didn't like her - Nihilus may have been tough to fight and left the exile with the impression that he could never be defeated unless they first weakened him by sacrificing Visas. That what "you must be sacrificed if I'm to live" means to me anyway - that Visas must die to weaken Nihilus so that exile can then live and kill him. Sure you can defeat Nihilus without killing Visas, but we can't be sure whether the exile was aware of that. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Visas clearly stated she did hate life. As she spends time with Exile and the others, her perspective changes. But the fact she is willing to kill herself eventhough she has come to see value in life indicates she is subserviant to male Exile to the extent of putting that servitude ahead of her own life. To the male Exile? How is that any different for the female Exile? And again, no, I do not agree. She is not subservient to the exile. She is submitting herself to the needs demanded by her cause of destroying Nihilus, not the exile. That she must therefore follow the exile's will on occasion is just a side-effect. And as we have already established, she certainly does not blindly obey. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i can't see how Atton has an inferiority complex to Exile. He sees Jedi as scum. He says at least the Sith are honest. Sure he says it - how else can he justify himself and his own actions? But he doesn't believe it. He also says, "How can you even live with yourself?" That is far more significant, because that's what he is looking for himself - to be able to live with himself. He cannot really do that at the moment - he is still running from himself and has been since Malachor. Being able to live with himself is the skill he wants to learn from the exile. He doesn't realise that the exile is probably even more in denial in some ways than he is himself. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Where did it state the majority of the older Jedi and Jedi Masters lost their padawans? When i think of it in terms of population pyramids, there is the smaller number of Masters at the top. The population base increases as the age of the Jedi decreases. The majority of the population per sector would be at the bottom with younglings since many are not accepted to further their training past the youngling or apprentice stage. Now the Exar Kun War drastically decreased the Jedi numbers. I don't see where you get that from, and in any event, it was close to four decades before the time frame we're talking about. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]So it took some years to build-up the Jedi numbers since those who were left over are the ones who had to go about recruiting, training, and becoming Masters to the new younglins. Those who were the second and third (depending on how it is counted. i am doing so based on from the time of youngling to Jedi able to train younglings) generations leave to go to the Mandalorian Wars. So there is a hole in the pyramid where those, such as Exile, who would teach the next generation are depleted. First of all, there is no complete hole in the pyramid, since it was not an entire generation of jedi that left. Many stayed. Bastila, for example. Clearly Juhani did too. And there seem to be more jedi of their age in the enclave in K1. Revan split the order. He did not cut it in two. But yes, some of the pyramid is missing, but what I don't understand is why the remains of the pyrmid cannot connect and fill out the blanks. The old masters who used to teach padawans have no padawans now, so they must teach younglings instead. The pick up the slack and the numbers add up. Problem solved. All we hear about it is how all the young jedi who had probably just become knights or were still padawans were the ones to leave. Those are not teachers. The only one who ever suggests that is Mical, and he is just one person. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Yes, the older Jedi did lose some padawans, but i think number wise, there would be more younglings left without teachers than there were Masters without padawans. Also, i have trouble believing padawans who were not yet ready for their trials would have been too likely to go off to war. They wouldn't seem to be proficient enough as not-even-Jedi to be out there fighting wars. It is sorta like cadets fighting along side soldiers. At least that is my understanding of it. Is it just me or is that precisely what Revan's army initially consisted of? Always sounded like that to me.

Not greatly, I think. Strength only increases attack and damage by one for every two points of the ability above 10. Strength 10 is therefore +0 and Strength 20 +5. Not exactly significant, given the massive bonuses you can get from the various crystals and what not... I usually played a sentinel/jedi master with Str. 14, and I had no trouble hitting my opponents, even on the the highest difficulty level...

Yes, but the TSLRP is rather far along in the development process, at least as far as I can tell from the list of progression on their site, where a lot of "chapters" seem to have reached beta-stage already.

Kreia: "Some said that Revan was born in the Outer Regions, beyond the Rim, and that's what called to him during the Mandalorian Wars... and after.It was the call of home." I'm not sure if this points to a prior connection between Revan and the true Sith, but it is a possibility. I wouldn't like that myself, though, since it would suggest Revan did all those things just because of some tie to the true Sith and not as a consequence of choice. Besides, if Revan were true Sith, then he should have some sith blood in him, and there is nothing to suggest that Revan was ever anything but human IMHO. Do we? I actually think we know enough about Revan to warrant his involvement already...

You get it automatically as part of the story if you play DS. About 70-80% through the game, after you have found all the jedi masters. Don't worry about it, as it will come automatically. Still, I like the LS power better...

Actually, the Atris vs. Handmaiden fight is not cut content - it is there in the game if you play male Exile. What was cut from that scene, however, was Brianna fighting her sisters, but that too will be restored in the TSLRP, apparently with the option to defeat them in non-lethal combat, which one of the sound-files seems to point to. To be honest, I'm actually glad they dropped that idea. It didn't make much sense to me that Atris would take over all of Kreia's goals just like that. I do regret that she did not become a party member to replace Kreia. That would have been so cool. Have I not done so even in your absence and without being asked?

Team Gizka is going to try. From the FAQ "Q: I have the XBox version of the game and a (legally) modded XBox - will your mod work on it? A: At this point we're unsure. There are reports that new model files (.mdl's) - which the mod will likely contain - do not work on the XBox. After our work is completed we may look into creating a more fully compatible version for the XBox." The M4-78 team isn't sure yet, according to their FAQ "Q: I have a legally modded Xbox can I download and use this mod? A: We do not know just yet, but I would imagine the answer is no. Once the project is over I would imagine that we will attempt to find a way to get it to Xbox users."

I agree that the D&D alignment rules suck. I couldn't outlaw them fast enough for the players IMC. Real characters are far too complex to fit nicely into nine fixed little categories. That said, I'd believe the punisher is Chaotic Neutral. He clearly puts himself above the law, and so he is opposed to being lawful. He tends more towards good than evil, but I'd still place him closer to neutral than good, since he is quite willing to commit immoral acts by killing people. Batman would be a little closer to chaotic good, though he has taken turns for chaotic neutral in some of the darker periods of his life as well. He tends more towards good because he is not willing to take lives quite as casually, though.

[Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Visas - i don't see how she is more equal to Exile when the whole point of her is her submiting to Exile. I'm going to agree with Darth Blivion on this one. Visas does not submit to the Exile. She submits to the greater cause. It is not the same. If she were submissive to the Exile, then she would do whatever s/he tells her to and always agree with the Exile's decision, and we know that is definitely not the case. On the contrary, Visas openly criticises the Exile for taking risks and flatly refuses to wear the thong that you hate so much or even to lead the Exile to Nihilus before she thinks the Exile is ready for that confrontation. Refusal is not an indication of submissive behaviour. [Jediphile,May 17 2006, 09:44 AM]You shouldn't think of it as a struggle or competition. The point of the topic is not for one of us (or anyone else here) to "win", but us - collectively - to search for the truth or at least establish a concensus in some form (I find that seeing it that also has the benefit of making it far easier to accept it, when I have to concede a point to someone else ) [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Which you haven't, i just happened to notice... Perhaps that " " should have been a Always easy to take the moral high ground when you have nothing to lose, isn't it Or as Martok (from DS9) would say, "war is much more fun when you're winning" :cool: [Hekate]So Atris loved male Exile. *sigh* What tangled webs we weave. [Jediphile]...especially when first we begin to deceive... [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Is that an admission? From me?!? What do you think? [Jediphile]that's actually another reason for him to admit to those feelings, assuming he wants to have a chance with Brianna [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Do you mean "not to admit those feelings"? Yes, that's what I meant - this is what happens when you try to type two answers at the same time... :"> [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Then that would be starting it off with a lie. Yes and no. The Exile might no longer care for Atris given how she has treated him, and there are good reasons why he would feel that way. Besides, if he likes Brianna, then he would not be off to a good start by admitting to having feelings for Atris. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]But if you meant it as is posted than that is indeed another reason why he wouldn't have lied. Hence furthering the argument of why we have to take what the characters say as being the truth (except where plot dictates otherwise) because it is all we have to go on. That's always the problem with these things. We have no choice but to look at what is said, because that is our only frame of reference, but we sometimes forget that just because a character says it does not make it true. I believe that about Mical's claim that there were no one left to teach him after the Exile left, for example [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Actually, i meant a politician (who just happened to be Reagan) versus a Jedi. Infact, there is very little here (as in not the Star Wars universe) that can be compared to Jedi. The consequence of what you say here is that any and all discussion becomes pointless, because Jedi cannot be compared to normal people, and since jedi do not exist in real life, we can't compare them to anything. I don't agree with that. Not that I like analogies, but beggers can't be choosers... [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]When you explained the point of a general understanding of why Ghandi is understandably seen as heroic, i was making the point Jedi are generally seen as heroic therefore it is easy for me to accept Exile did something or somethings Atris would see as heroic. That's not the same at all. I can point specifically to why I admire Ghandi. I cannot do that for the Exile. Indeed, the Exile seems to have only failed in his past, and generally been an average student (according to Vandar and Vrook), so that just begs even more for clarification of Atris' admiration. [Jediphile]Actually, not all the jedi seem to think so highly of the Exile [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]And that makes Atris loving Exile more believable how? That sounded alot more snarky than sincere but i can't think of how to rephrase it. That people apparently have a low opinion of the Exile based on her past does not exactly lend support to Atris' admiration for the female Exile. On the contrary, it calls it into question even more. And that is why I maintain that it hurts the story, when we don't get the details about the basis of that admiration. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i can't agree with that. When i think of those who have natural talents i do not, i admire those people's skills. When i think of kids (adults even) who hero worship athletes, they often do so based on the athlete's skill and natural talent and not based on whether that athlete has done something good for them personally nor on if that athlete is a person the admirer would respect. Hero worship of that sort has more to do with what the admirer is attributing to the "worshipee" as opposed to being about the "worshipee's" true qualities. That's due to presumed qualities people expect that person to have. Try having the same athlete kill his wife, make extreme political statements, or molest children, then see if there is any admiration left for his athletic abilities. Besides, if I were really evil, I would now say that since you said jedi are not ordinary people, when I made an analogy to Reagan, I now get to apply the standard and dismiss the comparison. It's a good thing I'm not evil, isn't it... [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]And Exile did make Force bonds. Even if Exile doesn't do it purposely, it occurs often enough for the Jedi Masters to have taken notice and for them to be impressed with. Not saying that is the case, just saying i can accept the hero worship without a stated cause as i can love without a reference base. That would require that this is common knowledge, which I doubt. Besides, jedi are not glory-hounds who want to be rich and famous. They're more like monks. So even if you were right and normal people might admire someone for an innate ability (and that's not an admission, since I still doubt it), I don't think the same would be true among the jedi themselves, since it is unreasonable to admire someone for something that he or she did not make an active effort to achieve. That would be like saying that I admire Ghandi's children for who their father was. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Usually i'd be inclined to agree about the love happens without a reason thing. Love is love, it just happens. End of story. But i felt just as lost about it with Atris as i did with Sion over the why. There was nothing personal about it in the least. Not one little memory, not one comment refering to it in anyway... To me, it felt thrown in there with the purpose of adding 'a hot Jedi chick' to the list of women who lust after male Exile. When did Atris become a "hot jedi chick"? She's an ice-queen! She could give the witch in the Narnia movie lessons in how to be frigid and aloof! [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]It is 10 years down the road. Carth was seen as a whiner for still being affected by his wife's death 4 years down the road. Atris being so furious with male Exile 10 years later based on her romantic feelings for him is, to me, not only creepy, but difficult to believe, especially for a Jedi Master and all. For anyone to identify that intencely with a person requires s/he has great difficulty distinguishing between the other person and her/himself. Romantic love does that to an extent, but there is more going on than that. Hero worship, especially if it went to the extreme it seems to have, makes more sense to me. Putting Exile up on a pedestal, especially one where Exile is seen to have been able to do no wrong and be the pillar of light and Jedi goodness (sorta the way you think Atton does for Exile but with differences), and mix in Atris expected Exile not to go to war which also justified in her own mind her not going to war, then Exile goes to war, Atris's world, and everything she used to keep herself elevated by in equating herself with Exile, is now gone. Hence, rather than look at herself, she blames Exile. Now that i can see burning at her soul for 10 years. It has little to do with Exile, and alot to do with Atris. If i'm lucky, that provided more clarity on my standpoint. Atris is blame-shifting. No doubt about that. And she does it in either case. As Kreia tells her, "you betrayed yourself, don't blame the Exile." But let's not forget those Sith holocrons. I doubt they helped matters any... Sure, Atris should have known better and controlled her emotions better, but she is like Denethor in Lord of the Rings (the novel, not the film), who has been secretly using the palantir and slowly been eroded by its corrupting effect. The sith holocrons have done the same with Atris - they have twisted all her unresolved emotions into something perverse and overpowering, and the relationship with the Exile is a particularly unclosed subject to exploit for them. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Nah, i don't buy the devs threw it in to equal things out. They likely would have chosen 'a hot Jedi hunk' for that instead. Like who? It's not as if there is a great list to choose from... [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]One would assume if they wanted to have the player feel something for the villain, the dev would have chosen to follow popular culture standards therefore Sion would have had to be more like *shudder in fear* Mical. i find it difficult to see they thought female players (whose interest i assume you are refering to by the evening out the "score" in the love interest of a villain category) would find Sion's feelings for female Exile appealing as a whole. Just look, they came up with Mical. i don't think they gave a hoot about making things even like that. If you feel that way, then I fail to see why you're objecting to my criticism of Mical and Sion as love interests... [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]It seems Sion was supposed to be alot more important in the game, all the antagonists actually, and Sion vs Atton was supposed to be a major event in female Exile's game. That battle wouldn't be as meaningful if it is just Atton who loves her as opposed to both Atton and Sion loving her (not saying Atton sacrificing himself isn't meaningful, it is. i just meant the battle itself). The only difference between Atris and Sion, when dealing with their respective loves, is the dialogue is a bit altered. There aren't any extra cut-scenes as there is with Atton (asking Boa-Dur about Exile), which could mean both were thrown in, or poorly cut out. So Atris is also poorly done? [Hekate]Now Sion, his having to die, is meaningful if female Exile chooses the "You have been a presence in my mind as well" option. Especially depending on how the Atton-Sion stuff was to turn out. [Jediphile]Why? [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]'cause he had been on her mind. You can say it, but it still made no sense to me. Besides, what does that mean "you've been a presence in my mind"? Given that Sion has been hunting the Exile all through the plot, of course he has been a presence - you're constantly scared that he'll track you down and kill you, after all. It's a completely redundant comment to make, if you look at it in that context. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]To get more specific; someone a person thinks of and has whatever feelings for is more personally significant to said person than one said person does not have those thoughts about nor feelings for. Only the player can tell whether this is true, and I never believed that the Exile could have true emotions for Sion or that Sion was still capable of them himself. He's just a dark, twisted being longing back to something he remembers from his life and which is now lost. That's not true love, only the shadow of it. And I cannot believe that the Exile can love a being a dark as Sion is, because if she is DS, then she won't care - there is no true love among the Sith - and if she is LS, then all the evil things he does will scare her off to such an extent that no true emotions will ever grow to the surface. So it's all doomed either way. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Why more meaningful depending on how the Atton-Sion fight goes? Because if she loves Atton, he gets killed. The Atton-Sion fight was cut. And in any event, I seem to recall that Atton is player-controlled during that fight and that he can win it, which also makes your point moot. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]If she loves Sion, then he kills her companion. If she loves both of them, than she has feelings for someone who just killed someone she had feelings for too. If she loves neither of them, than their feelings hold their own worth and it is a powerful image since both did things for her she will never care about. All in all, significant i say. I don't follow. But that might be because I just don't believe in the Sion-Exile "relationship". [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] We were speaking of the significance of Sion's death and how it pertained specifically to the romace plot with Exile. You're saying "So the romance thing is pointless - there is no impact or relevance to it at all." is why i tried to explain why Sion's death held impact and his caring for female Exile mattered to the game. If he died just because he had had enough and he realized he could never live-up to what Kreia saw in Exile, than his death came about from just that. On the other hand, if he died because he realized he was wrong and that his caring for Exile is stronger than his need to stay alive, than that is important. Exile had a direct impact on his death either way. The distinction lies in Sion's motivation of either giving up, or on letting go. And his letting go carries other meanings as i have pointed out in earlier posts. Ah, but then you're doing with Sion precisely what you won't let me do for Atris - assigning different value to the relationship even though the outcome is the same in either event. If you're allowed to assign a deeper interpretation to the outcome of the confrontation with Sion, because you see romance in it that are not there for the male Exile, then is it not just as reasonable to assign a similarly deeper aspect to the male Exile's relationship with Atris, when we know that she loved him? Sion must be persuaded to die regardless of the Exile's gender - there is ultimately no difference. If you assign a different interpretation to Sion's death for the female Exile, then I'm just as justified in doing something similar for Atris in the male Exile's story. [Jediphile]I'd agree if I believed his motives. But everytime I saw him, he was this nasty, powerful bugger who just wanted to kill me. The lines for regret about the female Exile just seemed to be thrown in there as an afterthought, and were nowhere nearly powerful enough to establish true feelings. If I'm to believe that in spite of Sion's repeated and constant attempts to kill the female Exile, then I need to understand his position, which I never do. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]He certainly makes it more clear than Atris does, Of course he does. Atris is doing everything she can to hide her true feelings, whereas Sion longs openly for feelings that he as lost in his now undead state. That's not a relevant basis of comparison. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]and she tries to kill Exile after she had let him go the first time because Kreia told her she would be the next Darth Traya. Unlike Sion who tries to kill the Exile everytime they meet? [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]By having that be the reason, they reduce the impact of her loving him by virtue of her attempt on his life has nothing to do with him. Whereas with Sion, his letting go instead of giving in increases the impact of his loving her. And i know the whole point of Atris having to kill Exile specifically is a sort of Sith rite to bring her to the DS, but as with Sion, she tries to kill all incarnations of Exile even if she did love male Exile. Atris is DS. She does not need to kill the Exile to meet some silly Sith standard. Kreia manipulated her to do it, sure, but is Kreia Atris' master now? I think not. Atris sees herself as the master and continues to - there is no ritual involved. As for Sion, he has to die in just the same way regardless of your gender, so that is a non-factor, even if you did believe him to be sincere about his feelings, which I don't. It's like you're saying that the outcome is the same in Atris' case, so it's irrelevant, but it's not for Sion because you assign a value to the relationship even though you have to defeat in just the same way. Sorry, but that sounds like a double standard to me. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Atton only sacrifices himself for female Exile so of course it has bearing on his importance. Or did i completely misunderstand what you were saying? Brianna only challenges her sisters and Atris for the male Exile, so that's not particularly compelling argument for the female Exile's story. Indeed, I find Brianna's confrontation far more compelling, because it both resolves her alleged betrayal to her sisters and Atris as well as settling the feelings both she and Atris have for the male Exile, which is significant because of Atris' direct tie to the Exile's past. That duality is not there in Atton's fight with Sion, since Sion is a stranger to the Exile. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Does that mean Atris' feelings for Exile went away when she tried to kill him? Do we then doubt she loved him at all and it was all just a ruse so he would let his guard down when she finally did try to kill him? No, of course not. i find it hard to believe she would try to kill someone she loves just because Kreia told her to. i fail to see the logic of Sion lying about his feelings to female Exile at that point. The difference is that Atris' feelings have had the time to become twisted and perverse, whereas Sion's have not. Therefore he should logically be more sincere to himself about what his feelings are, and yet he tries to kill the Exile at every turn. He is newly in love, which should make him want to embrace the Exile, only he doesn't. Atris' love, however, has been twisted into something perverse for a decade, making it far more believable that it no longer manifests itself in the way that it logically should. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] He explains he would rather she die than lose to Kreia and have her become broken as he was. He asked her to leave rather than go to Kreia; however; female Exile did not have that option so she had to participate in Sion's death since by his very nature, the consequence for him to accept he was wrong about the views he held, was death. Atris doesn't tell male Exile her feelings. Male Exile doesn't get the dialogue option to even aknowlege her feelings nor to suggest his own. Wrong. "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." You cannot admit that Atris loved the male Exile but merely admired the female without reading that sentence in a different light. It may have been the same for both male and female Exile, I'm not sure, but it's inescapable that it does not carry the same interpretation for the male Exile that it did for the female. And obviously there is a great difference, since you can choose to let Atris live (and actually will with the above), whereas Sion must die in any event. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Female Exile gets to say Sion is a presence in her mind, he gets to tell her she is important to him. The fact she says "as well" with regard to him being a presence in her mind indicates she believes what he is saying is true. *confusion* "Presence in my mind" can mean anything, including that she has been scared of Sion, who has continually been trying to kill her her throughout the game. What it means is therefore entirely the player's interpretation, and in any event, it still has no consequence to the outcome. [Jediphile]No, I don't agree, since I did not believe he was ever sincere. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Why not? What indication was there of him not being sincere? Repeatedly trying to kill people you claim to love is not likely to make them think you're sincere, methinks. [Jediphile]Jedi are not like ordinary people, since their emotions can lead them astray in ways that are not relevant to normal people. Pay attention to how Bastila explains how she was removed from her parents in K1. It told me pretty clearly that the younger the jedi is, the more important the order deems it to shield them from such emotions, since they are not yet able to control them. Older and more experienced jedi would be presumed to have better control of their emotions. This is obviously not true for Atris, but the other masters would likely have expected so and not noticed the danger (which doesn't seem that unlikely to me given all the other things they chose not to face...) [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i'm not sure how well the 2 can be compared; a child being removed from her/his family, and a youth having an attraction to her/his master. Mical said he felt awe and things along those lines. There is nothing to indicate an intence crush or lust. Most likely, if his feelings were strong enough to warrant it, they would have done something about it, but they obviously were not. Considering that Mical never became the Exile's apprentice, that does not seem to be a valid conclusion. That it didn't happen is no basis for concluding that it cannot have been a problem. I can just as well conclude that they didn't deal with it simply because the problem never arose in the first place and so they never became aware of it. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Vash said (paraphrasing) "We do not cast blame, we take responsibility Atris" which to me indicates she, at least, sees a problem with the severity of Atris' feelings. That's a comment aimed at Atris dismissing the Exile's wound as a thing of the dark side out of hand, not of her emotions towards the Exile. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i find it very difficult to believe they would have done absolutely nothing about it. As on their high horse and infalible as they believe themselves to be, Atris' feelings posed the real and forseeable danger she would fall to the DS. Such strong emotions are the very thing they guard against the most. Probably, but it never became relevant, since the Exile was, well, exiled and left. And besides, maybe Atris was good at hiding her emotions from them. Or they could have decided to let her deal with it on her own as a test of her character and only intervene if she began losing control. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Also, i thought Zez-Kai Ell was speaking his doubts about the Jedi teachings as a whole rather than casting blame on the Masters. He did say he left the Order the day Exile was exiled since he felt they should have asked why Exile chose to defy the Council, but then he speaks of how Exile's wound made them affraid and they couldn't deal with it. But that is quite different than counselling a fellow Master on controling her feelings. The strength of a Jedi comes from them never having to stand alone. By ignoring Atris' feelings and letting her isolate herself through their intencity, they are intentionally cutting her off from the Jedis' source of strength. i just can't see that, especially not given how fond of deliberating, minding eachother's business, and meditating on problems they are. They would need for Atris to acknowledge the problem herself, first. You cannot help someone unless they first accept that they have a problem. Besides, this is just another example of the very arrogance that the masters have been guilty off at this time. They think everyone else is flawed, and that they are themselves - including Atris - infallible. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Oops! i could have made that more clear. i meant if, when meeting the Council for the first time, Revan is obviously DS (in the DS alignment range, especially at point wherein it shows in Revan's features), why did they send her/him without a Master leaving Bastila out to dry with her having a strong bond with Revan, especially since she is so important with her battle meditation? That did not make any sense to me whatsoever. Nor did the whole sending them without a Master because it would draw too much attention. How so? Masters can hide their presences, can they not? The risk of sending them without one far outweighs the risk of sending one, i would think... First of all, I still don't see why Revan was *obviously* DS during that meeting. My Revan was fairly close to LS mastery at that point, actually. Anyway, the masters did explain it. 1. Sending a master along would be a beacon that Malak could track. They did not send one, because Bastila and Revan then had a better chance of slipping under the radar, while Malak was busy with all the more powerful jedi. And no, it's not easy to hide your presence, when you're a very powerful jedi. Yoda hid on Dagobah, because the cave where the dark side was strong (where Luke had his vision-battle with Vader) shielded his presence there. Apparently Sith are better at this, since Palpatine could hide under the nose of the order. Then again, they had no idea to look for him... 2. They send Bastila along, because she shared Revan's visions, and so if Revan was untrustworthy, they would at least still get the clues to where the starmaps were located and at least have a chance of finding the starforge that way. Obviously that concern must have outweighed the value of Bastila's battle meditation. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Hmm. i think he does have a complex psyche and things aren't as unentangled within him as they seem. When he speaks of Malachor V, he does not do so as if it was something of his past that has been dealt with. There even is the cut-scene where he and Exile couldn't sleep and he tells Exile of his dream of the MSG activation and he tells Exile the event is within him still. It is embeded in his psyche, he can't escape it. It's in his past so obviously it stays with him. He has to deal with it continually, since the alternative is to suppress it. And the Exile's presence has probably opened the wound a bit. But he does not have a problem dealing with it, and seems to come to the Exile mostly because he knows s/he probably feels the same way. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Exile listening in on the crew's thoughts hears Bao-Dur's echo "Malachor V". When he speaks with Exile about his being affected by her/him during the Jedification, he tells Exile he blames himself for both building the MSG, and for activating it. Exile counters, yet still Bao-Dur tells Exile he cannot see it that way. He tells Exile he may have to see himself as responsible, and through that, he attempts to atone. The fact he says it is something he might have to see that way indicates he is aware that he doesn't have to because there are other ways of looking at it, as Exile pointed out, but he also can see he needs to for his psychological and emotional stability. He can see what would happen to him if he let himself let go of that, as well as what is by refusing to let go of it. Bao-Dur knows himself quite well, but he is still very much at odds with himself. I don't see him being at odds with himself. He is quite open about where he stands here and what sort of responsibility he takes for his past. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]That he holds onto the notion Exile is not to blame for giving the order whereas he is for acting on that order shows he aknowledges his own falibility and he has a clarity of understanding his own responsibility, yet he cannot clearly see his insisting Exile is not responsible is delusional. Because that would make his own guilt pointless. Bao-Dur must accept that responsibility, because that is the only way his choices have lasting meaning. The alternative is that his actions had no significance, and that if he had not build the MSG, then someone else would have built it or something similar. He accepts responsibility, because it gives him control over the situation in the sense that all those terrible things would not have happened, if only he had made a different choice himself. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] We agree he isn't in denial (other than about the responsibility Exile had in events). And he is strong for not running from his responsibilities nor from the intencity of the emotions he used to feel. The unique thing about him is he is in a different place psychologically than everyone else. This is where we differ on this; he does surpress his feelings. When Exile does something evil, he calmly says (paraphrasing) "I only follow you because of what we have been through together General". That is him supressing the anger, disappointment, and myriad of other different things he feels so he can go on doing what he is. He changed from who he was during the Mandalorian Wars. From being an emotion driven person reacting to emotional stimulus (he even enlisted out of hate and anger), to being a reserved person who tries to do things following reason by surpressing his emotions. He does not like where his emotions had lead him. In order to not become the same monster he was, he has learned to control his anger and other emotions through supressing them. I don't entirely agree, since the only conclusion to your statements here is that you can control your emotions only by suppressing or denying them, and I do not believe that is true. I believe that you can acknowledge your emotions internally and yet choose not to respond to them outwardly. Otherwise it would be the same as saying that I'm suppressing my emotions, if someone insults me, and I choose not to go ballistic and yell at him for it. But I also have the option of just shaking my head (inwardly or otherwise) and thinking "what an idiot!", and then ignoring him because he's not worth the trouble. Is that suppression? [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i also think Atton has dealt with some of his demons. Just leaving the Sith was him facing things about himself he hadn't dared to before. Certainly, he was still affraid. During the Jedification he tells Exile he was too affraid of it changing him when that Jedi sought him out so he killed her for showing him the truth. Then he tells Exile he isn't affraid of that anymore. He is still messed-up. No doubt about it. But he does see more than just what is obvious, and he does have self-knowledge. Atton didn't leave the Sith, he escaped. And his guilt and self-denial haunts him throughout the game. That's why Kreia can manipulate him with impunity. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] As stated above, they aren't in his past since he is still effected by it during the game. The past will always be a part of who you are at any given point in your life, and it must be reexamined on a continual basis, especially if there are dark episodes there. That's what Bao-Dur is doing. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i do think he sees Exile as sacrosanct. There is no other reason i can fathom why he is so rational about everything other than Exile. Exile gave the order. Bao-Dur cannot accept Exile bears the responsibility that now rests on her/his shoulders because of it. Yet he can accept his own. There has to be some reason for that, some reason why he doesn't let Exile bear her/his rightful burden of responsibility and guilt. And that reason is simple: If Bao-Dur lets the Exile accept responsibility, then he will be admitting to himself that it really wasn't his fault, and that any choice he made at the time was pointless. That is more difficult for him to bear than it is to accept the responsibility for himself, it gives him control over the situation. His logic is that if he had not build the MSG, then none of it would have happened, and the guilt of that is easier to live with than the idea that he had no say in the matter and that his choices had no consequence. This is all fairly basic psychology, I think. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i never said it is a good basis to go into a relationship consciously expecting nor thinking of. i was explaining how a relationship between them would affect them, and by extension why it wouldn't necesarily be a bad thing for them. Bad for the plot, though, since it's not romance on a sound basis. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] The level of effect being the victim of a severe trauma versus the perpetrator of a severe trauma is so completely differential in scale and scope. There most certainly is guilt involved in the complex intermixing of emotions Visas experiences. When she speaks with Exile about Katarr, she mentions she questions why she survived. Having something of that scale occur as she could do nothing other than live through it, even losing herself to the point wherein she sees life as ugly and abhorent, that does not go away with an epiphany nor a single event, not even with the death of the one who caused such destruction in the first place. And Exile is the one who caused the cataclysmic event creating the Force wound from which Nihilus, hence the resultant destruction of Katarr, was made. Then she made herself Exile's servant. That does not bode well for her psyche, nor for her being able to heal. No, she did not make herself the Exile's servant. She made herself a servant to the greater cause of destroying Nihilus. Not the same at all. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i disagree she was in a trance-like state and she had a sudden perception change when he defeated her. She was quite aware when she spoke with Nihilus in the cut-scene, even making the decision to take a shot at him by asking him if he is affraid of the "noise" she picked-up on. Now certainly, one could assume she was in a disociative state of mind while serving Nihilus; however; that way of perceiving and experiencing life does not simply change with one event. The brain requires adjustment to the changes, especially if that is how one survived through ongoing psychological and emotional strain. Yes, but then KotOR2 takes place over the course of an entire year or more, and there are a lot of experiences during that time. And Visas seems to put her trauma behind her with astounding strength. But I don't agree with you that she is fully aware in the cutscene you mention above. Knowing Visas, it seems more likely that she is a witness to her own actions more than anything. She does not take a shot at Nihilus - she states openly whether there is concern. Given how much she is broken upon Nihilus' will at the time, she never would have dared to challenge of question his authority. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] She doesn't say, until before the Ravager when speaking with male Exile on the Ebon Hawk, she thinks perhaps life can be something to value. When on Onderon, and the Vaklu soldiers attack the cantina, she wants to slaughter everyone to rid the galaxy of the festering life she sees people represent. Well, those are not nice people... [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i don't think her priority is to kill Nihilus before the Ravager. What?!? Are we playing the same game? Visas absolutely *refuses* to take the Exile to Nihilus until s/he is powerful enough to defeat him in the VERY FIRST conversation you ever have with her Visas: "Even if I could lead you to my Master, I cannot permit you to find him... until you are ready.{Quiet}If I bring you before my Master, untested, without your potential realized, then you will be lost to me. {Beat}And I cannot allow that to happen.It would be as if one brought fire to a paradise valley, shattered a cavern of rare crystal... or blinded a painter.It is a choice that can be made by neither one of us.Do not be so quick to meet that which you do not understand. Use the time you have now, to grow, to train, and to strengthen yourself. {Firm, slight passion}I cannot - I will not. I would die first, and gladly, to preserve you, untouched, unharmed. Now that I have found you, I cannot sacrifice what I have found.You will meet my master. It is inevitable, I have... seen it. And when you stand before him, and realize what you face, you must be prepared. Until then, I must protect you, help you, until you are ready. There is a... a greatness in you, a greatness that does not stem from the Force. It stems from who you are. And if my Master does not understand you, cannot see you, then perhaps there is hope for us all. But if you seek to survive, then you must understand why this is so." [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i think it is to get Exile as strong as possible so s/he can feed Nihilus better. That was her mandate afterall. I had similar concerns playing the game, but it doesn't come to pass, so apparently Visas was sincere all along. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] To bring that thing she felt to Nihilus. i think it wasn't until later, when she realized what Exile is, could she even fathom the notion Nihilus could be defeated. And i don't see that as callous. i see that as her severely traumatized and following her programming. She talks of hope in the very first conversation you ever have with her. I don't see her as quite as traumatized as you do. Sure she has been through a lot, but Visas is a complex and strong person. She may have suffered under Nihilus, but she has also gained insight far beyond what her apparently young age would suggest. That's why she's able to take it all in stride. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] From a certain point of view, Visas having feelings for male Exile isn't necessarily of itself a bad thing. It might even be seen as a good sign she is able to feel a bit of a broader range of emotions again. What i am saying is she is still way too severly traumatized for anything positive to come of it if he pursued, especially since Exile is as deep in denial and unaffected by others' needs as he (and female Exile) seems to be. Adding more dilemas to Visas though, seems to be more cruel and to be pushing things with her character too far as opposed to being more humanizing. Atton never sees himself as worthy, Disciple submits completely to the Exile, and Brianna just loves the shadow of her dead father. Any of those healthy? No. I maintain that Visas is far more mature and strong than any of the alternate love interests. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Thankfully she was aware of the confrontation's inevitability from the start. And yes, if she loves Exile than that is him getting into harm's way; however; she did ask him to stay and not confront Nihilus thus he is putting himself in harm's way. And that you said she is doing it is telling. Visas will take that burden onto herself eventhough it really doesn't belong there. And that is one example that depicts why i feel the devs adding her loving Exile to the already heavily burdened character takes away from the plot and from her character development. If she does not love Exile, then Exile just becomes a weapon she can use to fight Nihilus with. Does that make the plot better or worse? [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] He loses control of himself because of the bond and because killing is something he has ingrained in him. Atton was a torturer, not a warrior. And if it's just because of the bond, then why does only he "blank" out when he attacks. The others do it because they must stand together, but Atton seems to do it even against his own will. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i have never seen Visas refuse combat. i can't see why she would since she hates all life and wants to put an end to the chaos of living things. We diverge on the concept of what Visas' goals are. i saw her initial goal to be to bring Exile to Nihilus. You saw her goal as destroying Nihilus. Visas' servitude seems quite apparent to me. After besting her in combat she is confused why Exile would let her live and she tells Exile (paraphrasing) "you are stronger than I. I have nothing to offer." That speaks to her state of mind of her being a servant who can see value in herself only in terms of what she can bring to the other. i also saw her sacrificing herself on the Ravager as being done for Exile and not to defeat Nihilus since she first questions if he is certain. When he states he is, she does so. When it is not offered as a suggestion, she does not offer herself up for them to kill Nihilus. And that she doesn't offer herself tells me that she wants to go on living. But she is willing to accept death, if that is what it takes to defeat Nihilus. Visas doesn't hate life, she is just scared that there is no hope for it, and so she is reluctant to hold out hope for it. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Atton does not change who he is to suit what his idea of what Exile wants him to be. Atton remains true to himself throughout, eventhough he isn't sure who he is. It is not as if Atton has a sudden Exile induced epiphany and has become a pious celebate monk. He does change, but it is a part of his personal growth or regression depending on his alignment. Though that could be significantly different with the cut-content. They had to have Kreia force him into staying on with Exile to explain why he would stay, since he certainly would not have done so of his own volition, not even for female Exile. He has a complete infiriority-complex towars the Exile throughout the game. He loves her, but hates himself far too much to ever reach out for her. And he doesn't love her as much as he loves the concept of redemption that she represents to him. Not a good basis. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Mical bows once. On Dantooine. As a greeting. He bows to male Exile too. Mical in no way changes who he is nor how he views things, he openly disagrees with her about her exile, he teachers her meditation, and he explains things to her (about stuff she should know too... ), and tells her she is wrong. Mical is not weak and maleable, nor does he do nor say things to please her. He says what he thinks and feels and if she doesn't like it, so be it. He still submits entirely to her will, and far more than Visas could ever hope to match, since he submits to the Exile directly, while Visas submits herself to a greater cause. Mical may disagree with the Exile on occasion, but he doesn't seem to have much personality or sense of self. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] He needs something to light the metaphorical fire under him to get him going. Just saying an intimate relationship would do that. No, he doesn't. Bao-Dur is fine. Why does he need fire under him? If Bao-Dur can make it alone in his life, then more power to him. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i didn't see any sign at all that i can recall of Exile wanting to deal with her/his issues which is a reason i think something that isn't tragic nor includes killing is what Exile needs since s/he deals with those without it affecting her/him deeply. I'm not sure I understand... [Jediphile]Atton's attraction to the Exile is far more unhealthy than Brianna's is, because he loves her just because she is able to live with dark past, while he finds it far more difficult himself. In short, he loves her ability to deny the terrors and sins of her past more than he loves the Exile herself. Not very ideal... [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i disagree with that. Atton in part wants to be able to do as she can, but there is far more to it than that. From the begining he saw Exile's weaknesses, and weakness is not something he finds appealing, and his natural inclination is to exploit it which he chooses not to do. Also from the begining, he saw Exile's strengths, her/his courage and determination. He didn't even know about the dark past at that point. When Exile is DS, he voices his discontent strongly. When Exile is LS, he speaks of it being good. To me, that indicates he is working on changing, and he is doing so regardless of what Exile does. He is a complicated person who is torn in many different directions. i do concede though, at the end of the day, his alignment and if he falls back into the pattern of his Revan days, depends a great deal on Exile. That is the nature of Exile's Force bond. Visas has the exact same large and actuated alignment deciding based on Exile. Atton and Visas' pasts are the reasons for their maleability. Visas is far more willing to disagree with the exile and criticize him/her than Atton, who is more of a confused person than a complicated one. Visas is complicated, but Atton is not, he "just" has a dark past that he cannot put behind him. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] It was Bao-Dur's hands that not only built the MSG, but also that activated it. When he speaks with Exile about the dream, he reveals he was the one to 'push the button' It was at Exile's command, but that act and its inception lie solely on Bao-Dur. He did not know, nor could he have forseen the impact that would have on the Force, nor that it created a DS power spot. The MSG had no impact on the force. It's just a weapon, albeit a fairly nasty one. The impact on the force was the Exile's doing. Otherwise the whole point of the force wound becomes irrelevant to the story. The MSG was just the catalyst that made the exile cut himself off from the force and cause the wound. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] But intentions do not take away from reality. He is responsible for his creation and for its use. Exile is responsible for ordering its use and for rejecting the Force. And yet Bao-Dur accepts responsibility for both, for the reasons I've already stated. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] What she saw, unless i am mistaken, is Exile's lack of connection to the Force. Exile's wound and the nothing the Jedi Masters saw. That would be very akin to Nihilus. Well, you already know that I see Exile and Nihilus as opposite sides of the same wound, so Visas seeing the "other" is not so unlikely to me. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i re-read the paragraph i wrote, and i must say, i am not sure why you are stating i said most of the Jedi died during the Exar Kun Wars, You said, "they lost a huge slew of Jedi." That suggests rather a lot. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]nor that i implied the older Jedi did not take on padawans. I clearly state they most likely did. Jolee in KotOR spoke of the Exar Kun Wars splitting the Order and many Jedi died, leaving the Order weakened and with severly reduced numbers since many went to the DS, and others died fighting those who left. Based on that, those who had padawans and those who were to teach them, were lost, leaving a rather large youngling population without the chance to become padawans. A similar thing occured with the Mandalorian Wars. Except not as many left to fight, and most of the older generations remained with the yonger post-Exar generations leaving. They were at teaching age, therefore when they left, a larger number of youngling were left without those who could teach them. For the life of me I cannot understand the logic here. Yes, I realise that Mical says it, but that still doesn't mean that it makes any sense. Revan's jedi were mostly *THE YOUNGER JEDI* We hear again and again of the older jedi losing their padawans to Revan's cause. THOSE ARE PADAWANS AND NOT TEACHERS. The only thing anyone has ever said to suggest that teachers left is Mical's one statement that nobody was left to teach him. I will take the repeated statements to the contrary of everyone else talking on the subject over just Mical's any day. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]The older Jedi who did not leave had to pick-up the slack, and they most likely took on padawans for training, but there is still a hole in the heirarchy, and there are still missing teachers. Judging from what Mical recounted, he was supposed to become Exile's padawan. i don't know if those who left were thought to return so their intended padawans were left for them or not, but i do find it believable the dent put into the Order was enough to hinder the making younglings into padawans process. How so? The older jedi and masters lost the majority of their padawans, while the younglings lost some teachers. The only logical conclusion I can reach from following that is that there were more teachers than needed. [Hekate] i've been considering these criteria for a while, and i think there are many different ways to look at it. There is: the player's perspective the overarcing storyline the tie to Exile's personal history the effect/influence the character has on Exile how solid they are as characters what they bring to the group dynamic their skills and/or abilities [Jediphile]Why is ties to the Exile's personal history relevant? It's like you're saying a character is only interesting if he or she has a direct tie to the Exile's past. I don't agree with that at all. Atton and Brianna have no ties to the Exile, and their stories are quite rich anyhow. Besides, it hurts credibility if everything in a plot has relevance to the protagonist directly, since it suggests that nothing can take place in the rest of the universe. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Did i say it is the only important factor? Did i say it is the most important factor? Did i say a character is less significant without a personal tie to Exile? Nope. i didn't at that. And I'm not allowed to question that factor? I didn't even take it out of context, you know...

They could probably do this just as a mod for one of the Battlefront games... I'd rather see it as a more strategic game like a RTS or something like Empire at War. Especially since the last battle at Malachor seems to have taken place mostly in space, which would make it difficult to represent in a FPS.

Beware, my friend. To the dark side analogies and allegories to real life can lead us. That's highly inflammable subject matter... I think I'll stay clear of this one. It looks a little bit too explosive to me.

Just for the record, Kreia's exact line is: "You are greater than any I have ever trained." Now, most seem to think that it naturally follows from that statement, that the Exile was "greater", i.e., more powerful, than Revan was, since she also trained Revan. I see the logic, but I'm less certain myself for two reasons. First, Revan learned from many other masters, and he may have grown quite powerful under other teachers than Kreia. That he was not her greatest student does not necessarily mean that he has not become the most powerful jedi later. Second, and more important, you have to consider Kreia's perspectives. Revan is "just" another "ordinary" jedi, albeit an exceedingly powerful one. But he does not possess the Exile's ability (that we've seen at least) to deny the will of the force. And that ability is something that makes the Exile beautiful to Kreia, since he can deny the force that she hates so much. She may call the Exile the greatest for that reason, in the sense that it is not a measure of who is more powerful, but who has the ability that Kreia admires the most.

You mean a First-Person Shooter? Could work, I think. Might also work with the Real Time Strategy-approach. Still, it could not be an RPG (because we know too much of what must happen), and so it might be doubtful if I'd ever play it...

Don't make the villain too much a villain, though. What I mean by that is that you shouldn't make him do evil things just because, well, he's evil. Villains need really good reasons for what they're doing. Not that I'm implying you're doing that - your struggle for good plot would actually suggest the opposite - but I've seen so many published adventures, where I just thought "why is the villain doing this?", and there was just no answer to that question. Instead the villain was just this really black-hearted creep who did evil things, and often insane things too, for no other reason than because he was evil... or insane, which is always a convenient excuse So don't make the villain too black-hearted. He (or she) should be able to pass himself off as a nice person, if he wants to. In fact, if your PCs are not good guys and you sort of want them to be, make the villain their new "ally" who helps them out of a few troubles, and then promptly stabs them severely in the back, once they begin trusting him. That usually makes the PCs turn the good guys and help them for some reason... He could be a "businessman" like Jabba (only not such a silly race as the Hutt). Or think Kingpin from Spider-man/Daredevil or Lex Luthor from Superman. Those are manipulative powerfreaks who hide themselves from exposure. I love it when the PCs just know that someone is a bad guy, but they can do nothing about it because they have no proof Don't worry too much about originality. Trust me, it's not all it's cracked up to be. Just do the plot and let the players worry about whether it's original enough. You can always add details later to make it more original. There are no new plots, so you will be stealing from someone. And all it takes to make a villain that is not clich