Jediphile

Pardon me, but you're the one who keeps arguing powerlevels, crystal powers, and so on. Those are all stats, and stats are gameplay, not story. And the stats are silly compared to the plot no matter how you look at it. Consider the saber battle in "Return of the Jedi". According to the d20 RPG rulebook (which is what the KotOR stats are based on), Darth Vader was at least an 18th level character (Fringer 1/Jedi Guardian 11/Sith Lord 6, stats from beginning of Episode IV), while The Emperor was a level 20 character (Noble 4, Dark Side Devotee 6, Sith Lord 10 - stats as per Episode VI). Luke, however, is described as being (at the end of the film) a 9th level character (Fringer 2/Jedi Guardian 7). Now how the heck did Luke *ever* win that fight?!? Even the Star Wars writers say that the stats should be taken with several grains of salt. If the creators want to do a story where Mace Windu, Revan, Exar Kun, Exile, Palpatine and whomever else join together and fight a lone Luke Skywalker, then Luke will win if that's what the writers want to happen in the plot. Period. That's funny... Because I could have sworn I saw Yoda fight some pretty serious saber battles in the two most recent movies... But then I must be remembering it wrong...

Explaining Kreia's philosophy would be a major spoiler of the game, and since we're in the general forum, I don't think we should get into it. Suffice it to say that she respects those who can live without being dependent on using the force. Hence her comment to Atton while the Exile is sleeping (on Telos) about how helpless many jedi are without the force, because they lack the skills that other people have.

I prefer two lightsabers. Because I can put more stat-modifying crystals in two than in one :cool:

If Lucas wants the game made, then it will be made, yes. Period. However, LA seems to have a policy of producing only a set number of Star Wars games per year (not sure how many), and they seem to stick fairly close to that policy on the basis that there will otherwise be too many Star Wars games that compete with each other, and so hurt sales figures. Yes, I'd agree that Lego Star Wars 2 does not target the same demographic as KotOR3 would, but whatever LA says goes, so... Obsidian really doesn't have much choice here. They've said they'd take on the challenge of KotOR3 in a second, which is about as much as they can say, since it really is not up to them. LA owns Star Wars and gets to call all the shots. Obsidian gets to accept it or not do further Star Wars games...

That would be lame, Lame, LAME, and not Obsidian-ish. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If it means coming back as a clone in the sense that Palpatine did, then yes, it would be boring and unoriginal. I don't think it was inappropriate for Palpatine (it actually answered a few questions that didn't make sense to me before), but I do think it's not appropriate for Nihilus, who was very close to being a force ghost to begin with. However, that does not preclude the possibility that he might "return" in some other form, I think.

You defend her with the line, "I will protect you, Kreia, so that you may be redeemed later." That's clearly LS in my book, and it's then up to your other companions, whether they agree that Kreia can be redeemed, or whether they insist on destroying her even if the Exile vows to protect her.

Definitely the Galactic Civil War - it decided whether the jedi would return or whether the Sith would finally win once and for all, plunging the galaxy into darkness from which there would seem to be no hope of escape.

Definitely Jedi Sentinel/Jedi Master in my experience. Lots of skills, uber-force powers, and still very good lightsaber potential.

[Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] [snip Sion quotes] So, it does explain alot about Sion, why he does what he does, why he wants to kill female Exile even with him falling for her. It does not specifically state why he sees her as beautiful nor why she in particular has that effect on him, but i think it is safe to assume part of it is they can feel eachothers' presences within eachother, and she was able to deny the Force and was thus free of the strangle hold the Malachor V wound has on him. And those are good reasons. But does the quality lie in the romance or in Sion's complexity? Because the latter you certainly get in the male version of the game as well - you still have to convince Sion that the existence he has lived has not been worthwhile and that Kreia chose the Exile over him, because the Exile was able to give up the force, and that there is strength in that. I agree that this works plotwise, but you don't have to play the female Exile to experience it. The male version is just the same, except the early lines are different, because Sion sees the male Exile as a hated competitor for Kreia's affections and nothing else. But you still have to make Sion examine the value of his own existence and make him see that it is not worthwhile, which erodes his will. The last lines you quote are just the same for the male Exile, so in the end, Sion accepts the value in giving up the force from the male Exile just as much as he did from the female Exile. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] Mical was over the top voice acted and his character was writen as very soft spoken and gentle. He is seen as submissive and spineless because of it. But he isn't spineless nor submissive as i pointed out before. i personally don't like how he was voice acted either. It felt disingenuous and even a little, well, creepy. But when i look beyond that into what he actually says and does throughout the game, i see there is more to his character. As far as his love story goes, well, it certainly isn't the most passionate piece of buring love in history, and it doesn't have a frantic nor longing filled drive behind it. Mical is more serene and Jedi-like in that sense unlike the others, especially Atris and Brianna. Just look at how calm he is when he and Kreia finally do get into it eventhough he figures out she has been messing with him and Exile the whole time etc. Some feel that is boring. That is ok. Jedi generally would be boring in that sense since their behaviour and way of life is intentionally passionless. But he does make a contrast to the other cast in that he isn't pushing down his feelings nor is he letting them control him. He is a pretty centred fellow. I'm not really about to disagree with any of this. I don't particularly hate Mical, I just don't think that he is very interesting. But do I think he has value in the game? Sure, I do. But given that we can only choose either him or Brianna to be in the game (by our choice of gender), the question simply becomes which character I find to be more interesting, and here Brianna wins hands down. She is a far more interesting character than Mical to me, and her "betrayal" of Atris adds depth to the plot as I see it. When I played male, I thought after speaking with Mical (in the jedi enclave), "gee, what a paperpusher...". But then he contacted Carth (or Cede) and gave a secret report, and I thought, "well, maybe there's more to this guy than meets the eye...". After that playing a female Exile, however, was disappointing, because my conclusion was "no, there isn't - he just isn't that interesting..." So that makes an argument in favor of the male Exile in my book. You don't like Brianna sparring in, well, the nude or close to it. Fair enough, you have every right to your opinion, but I do not think that all women feel the same way as you do, so while you might see it as demeaning, I do not concur that Brianna does. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] But if Atton died there, it was "game over". Same with Mira when Hanhaar fights her. i thought it is in the engine that if all the controllable party members die, even if there is only one to control at the time, it ends the game. So if that is true, then Atton can't die fighting Sion if it is player controlled since the game would end. Unless it goes to a cut-scene before his hit points reach 0, sorta like they do with Sion and Kreia. But i don't think so 'cause that doesn't happen with player controlled characters. It did in Brianna's fight against Atris. She could win, then Atris would zap her to the ground in the next cutscene, and then the Exile arrives in time to save her. Or she could lose, then cut to cutscene with Brianna at Atris' mercy, then the Exile arrives to save her. That battle could be won or lost and still have the same outcome. [Jediphile] Still don't see how that applies to Atris... [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM]From what i have read, the general concensus is she is attractive, or otherwise refered to as "hot Jedi chick". She's not bad-looking, but I wouldn't go further in that. Any other attraction would, as I see it, come more from the challenge of melting the ice-queen than anything else... (sort of like Han Solo does with Leia in ESB) [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] Sion: "I hate you because you crawl in my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts, no teachings, you are just... there, unspoken." Exile: "Sion, we need not battle - you have been a presence in my mind as well." i do not feel Sion's and Exile's dialogue leaves much room for interpretation on the point of whether they mean "on their minds" as in thinking about (self directed), vs "presence in my mind" as in feeling the other within eachother (not self-directed). Sion clearly states having feeling for the female Exile, yes. I don't think that it makes much sense (which is why I say that I think it hurts the plot and his character), but he does say it. But I don't see the Exile returning those feelings with the statement you make here. "You've been a presence in my mind" can mean a lot of things. It can just as well be the Exile trying to avoid the confrontation because she is afraid of Sion as anything else, and so she placates him by accepting his comments of affection. I do not see that this statement *must* be a confirmation that the Exile has feelings for Sion as well in any way - it can just as well mean that she is afraid of him. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] This is where i say "i am not sure about this since i can't remember that well, but i think Atris doesn't admit her feelings of love to male Exile nor vice-versa in the last confrontation between them", then you can go look it up in the dialogue text files and can prove/disprove my recollection of it. The option Exile has of saying: "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." sounds to me as if Exile is uncomfortable with the whole caring thing. And I see the similar toward Sion in the female Exile's "you've been a presence in my mind"-comment. But though the Exile may be uncomfortable about it, I do think that the line to Atris is more sincere than the female Exile's line to Sion is. The reason behind that is probably that the male Exile no longer has true feelings for Atris, if indeed he ever did, but that when he says this, he has already chosen to spare Atris' life. You do not have that choice with Sion, however, and therefore you can lie or be sincere with him regardless, since he must die in any event. For that reason I do not see the two as completely comparable. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM]Exile is emotionally dense as it is, and is a rather dismissive person, so the fact Exile is so focused on her/himself when s/he is speaking about Atris' intence feelings ("I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me") to me suggests Exile is put off by the whole thing and does not realize the strength of Atris' feelings. Or worse, does, but has chosen to be cold and sterile about them. So, bringing this back to the issue of how much the NPCs personally affect Exile, i would argue Atris does not affect Exile deeply, nor does Exile care too much about her pain. Disagree at will... That doesn't make sense to me, because at the point where you say that line to Atris, you've already decided to spare her life. Then it would be truly cruel to lie right to her face, and letting Atris live is not the DS choice. It's true that the male Exile doesn't exactly reciprocate Atris' feelings here, but then how can he? If he doesn't feel that way about her, then it would be very wrong to do, and even if he did feel the same way, those feelings are the very thing that caused Atris' fall in the first place. Atris needs to distance herself from them before she can heal and become whole again, and the feelings she has would hinder that or even make it impossible. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] Trite and irrelevant, eh? Hmm... You would just have to read their dialogue options to agree that Sion has feelings for Exile, and that Exile potentially has feelings for Sion, and if not feelings for him in the attraction to and/or love for ways, than that he, at the very least, affects her. As i recall, i was defending my position that Sion is relevant when i pointed out the universal truth that if Exile feels Sion and/or thinks about him, that he is important to Exile. That Sion is important to Exile was being refuted. So why now am i being metaphorically spanked for having been put into the position of having to defend what is a universally applicable concept? Even if I accept that the principle you describe is true in general that does not mean that I must also accept that it is relevant to Sion and Exile. And I don't. Whatever Sion feels for the Exile, I see no evidence that Exile returns those feelings, and therefore your principle does not apply IMHO. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] As i recall, going back in the conversation thread, it was argued Sion and Atton's fight bears no significance because Sion has no personal history with Exile. Thus, your position was personal history is significant. i pointed out the faliciy in that line of thinking by showing how the personal history argument is being unequally applied as a term of point making since to lay claim to Mical's personal history with Exile not mattering, the whole value of using personal history with Exile as an argument basis is faulty. The view should be either; a) having a personal history with Exile doesn't matter, or b) having a personal history with Exile does matter. i asked if you were recinding your position on it because it is important for me to know where you stand on the issue. It is a point of contention afterall. i didn't mean to sound offensive by asking, it was a simple question, but it boils down to tone not being able to come across very well in writing... So, how do you feel about the personal history wtih Exile thing mattering vs not mattering now? (No sarcasm, offence, agitating, etc, intended) First of all, the point of whether a personal tie has relevance was made in the context of Mical having one vs. Brianna not having one - I did not not mention it in relation to the Sion/Atton fight (and I don't see how it applies there anyway...) Second, no, I'm not going to step into this trap either. "a) having a personal history with Exile doesn't matter, or b) having a personal history with Exile does matter." I do not accept your authority to make this a black-and-white issue, and it is a trap, since the true answer IMHO is the unspoken option c. What I said before was that it hurt the plot if *all* characters had to have a personal tie to the Exile past. Now, that clearly rules out option b. However, I did *not* say, "none of the character may have a personal tie to the exile's past", just that it would hurt the plot if *all* did. The logical conclusion is therefore that while *all* are not relevant, then *some* might. Therefore the correct answer is option c: "having a personal history with the Exile *can* matter, but doesn't have to". You get still get no brownie points, but I'm going to penalize you with demerit points for continual attempts to obscure the discussion. You don't need to see my identification - move along! [Jediphile] Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone. It is quite obvious that Atris is disappointed and disapproving of the Exile in this scene. Sure, you and I know that there are other emotions at work, but the masters wouldn't. I see Vash, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell getting the same disapproval and frustration from Atris as they undoubtedly do from grumply old Vrook. I do not see Atris revealing her emotions of love or admiration for the exile in that scene, or rather, I don't see that they are in any way obvious to the other masters. She just seems disappointed, disapproving of the exile's actions. I also see her being angry and vengeful, which is why Zez-Kai Ell steps in and tells her to mind her feelings. Her love/admiration for the exile, however, is not displayed in an obvious manner IMHO. So I fear you'll have to look for your plothole elsewhere. These are not the droids you're looking for... [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] In this context, it doesn't matter if Atris' feelings for Exile are love or hero worship. What her feelings are at all, whether love, hate, anger, whatever, isn't what is important. It is the intencity of her emotions that is the problem. Her feelings are just too strong. That is the pertinent difficulty. Vrook did not go to the extent of saying Exile should have died on Malachor V, he doesn't get emtional, nor does he show open anger. He was rather calm as the rest of the Jedi Council members were. Master Kavar was once Exile's master, yet he was passionless. So the point i was getting at is Atris' feelings were quite an obvious problem. Plot hole reintroduced. Stormtrooper resisted the infamous Jedi mind trick. What will Obi-Wan do now?... Now, I know you read what you quote me for above, so why do you ignore the opening statement: "Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone." ? I'm having trouble with this, since it seems to me that that you're willfully ignoring which emotions are at work here. You accuse Atris of openly revealing her feelings *for* (meaning either love or admiration) the Exile here, yet when I point out that those precise emotions are not unveiled in this scene, you ignore my point and proceed to claim plothole, because Atris demonstrates *any* feelings at all. YES, SHE DOES, BUT WHICH FEELINGS? It is not irrelevant in this case, because jedi are allowed to have feelings, it's just a question of which ones. Feelings present in Atris in council scene: Disapproval, disappointment, anger, disgust. Feelings *not* overtly present in Atris in council scene: Love or admiration. Attempt to maintain flawed plothole accusation rejected. Yes, there are droids here, but *THESE* are not the droids you're looking for. Move along! [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] This is another discrepancy in the plot, though. i thought those who were taken to be converted were those who were LS and/or not loyal to Revan. i can't see why someone who is on Revan's side and loyal to Revan would need to be made loyal... *confusion* It would be a discrepancy only if Atton was a LS jedi. He was not. He was just an assassin/torturer working for the Sith, who found out that he was force sensitive. He explains how he had heard the stories of those who were found to be force sensitive among the Sith ranks and who were then forcibly removed from service for how knows what reasons (to be turned into dark jedi). It was only when Atton realised that he was himself force sensitive that he had to flee in order to avoid that fate. [Jediphile] Yes, they're both responsible, but neither of them can afford to see it that way. Well, at least Bao-Dur cannot, I'm still not certain about the Exile, who seems to be far more in denial. [moved for better chi:] Yes, that's precisely what he would do, because that means it was the Exile's choice and not his, and that is worse than accepting that he had no choice himself. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM]i don't agree with that assessment (big surprise, eh?) i can understand what you are saying: he needs to feel he was solely responsible in order to keep his part in it "real", and for him not to feel as if he didn't have control in the MSG's use. Which, as a cheeky add in to another point of debate, makes Bao-Dur have a complex mind " *cough* Moving on... But i don't think that is why he refuses to let Exile be responsible for it. i think his part in it is much bigger than anyone else's. And his General could have been replaced by any other general, it wouldn't change the events. But without Bao-Dur, there would not have been a MSG. i don't think he is deluding himself on that point at all. i think the purpose is twofold. One: he does so to protect his General. He is aware s/he cannot face it nor handle it, and has taken it upon himself to protect her/him to the point he is willing to suppress his own feelings about Exile's reponsibility (and in this case, i do mean suppress. He does not allow himself to feel that at all). Two: it serves as a counter balance to how he feels about both the attrocity and himself. He sees, knows, feels the horror of Malachor V. He isn't at all deluded about that. The Jedi Civil War was a direct effect of the MSG activation. Those 2 put together are a helluva psychological and karmic burden to deal with. In allowing Exile to be free of the responsibility of those attrocities, it allows a wedge of that for himself as well. Anyway, that is how i see it at the moment. This does go against my theory he sees Exile as sacrosanct though... Hmm... They could work in conjunction though... I agree that Bao-Dur does suppress his insights regarding the Exile's responsibility, because that's the only way he can accept all the responsibility for himself. In a sense, Bao-Dur - in this context - is like Oppenheimer who was terrified by what his invention was used for, because while Oppenheimer saw the miracle of of his own ingenuity, the generals saw only its destructive potential and how it could be used strategically against the enemy. Bao-Dur has the same kind of experience, I think, only he still blames only himself and not the general. Bao-Dur accepts that as the inventor, the moral responsibility of his creation is also his, no matter what his creation is used for. Is he right? Ask a philospher - that's one for the ages, and one that we struggle with still in the real world. Like Malachor, that one echoes still... [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] i don't know. It was his job to make the MSG once the brass ordered it be made. I'm not certain about that. Are we ever told this? I do not recall a comment about Revan, Malak, or even the Exile ordering such a thing created and then commanded the engineers to figure out how, so I would assume this was something Bao-Dur thought up on his own volition. But I'm not sure... [Jediphile] To the male Exile? How is that any different for the female Exile? [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM]Because from what i've read, i don't think she can self-sacrifice for female Exile. It wasn't an option when i played female Exile. She can ask Visas if she could use the bond she and Nihilus share to weaken him, but the option for her to kill herself isn't given. i may have chosen the wrong dialogue options though. You're wrong there. I just checked the game to be certain and had no problem sacrificing Visas playing the female Exile. It's true that the option does not always present itself, but that has to do with a bug and not your choice of gender. Put standard clothes on Visas and equip her only with a vibroblade or lightsaber, and you'll get the option to sacrifice her every time, regardless of the Exile's gender. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] i am not certain of what you are specifically refering to with your question of where i get that from. If you mean the population pyramid annalogy, i learned that in school, and i mentioned it so, how i saw how it was possible for there to be a lack of teaching age Jedi, could be understood. But if you mean my idea the Exar Kun Wars killed alot of Jedi; i am quite certain Jolee said so... Well, a lot of jedi did die in the Great Sith War, but I don't get the sensation that their ranks were depleted or close to it judging from how it all ends in the "Sith War" comic books, which is, after all, the original source of that information. The jedi assemble a fleet full of jedi vessels and fly to Yavin IV to confront Exar Kun. It even says, "thousands upon thousands of force wielders converge upon the small jungle moon" (yes, it just says "force wielders", but it does mean jedi, I think). At this point Exar Kun realises that Ulic has betrayed his location to the jedi. He then begins a ritual, which requires the sacrifice of all the Massassi warriors he has left. "Even as the jedi approach, Exar KUn prepares himself to unleash his powerful spirit... To shed the chains of his mortal body and run rampant throughout the cosmos!" However, "The wall of light generation by many jedi becomes a crushing blow for the light side of the force... A flood that sweeps down to extinghuish the corrupted power of the Sith... and to stop Exar Kun." After that the jungles around the temple burst into flame, Exar Kun's forces are destroyed, and Exar Kun himself is trapped in his spiritform. No jedi are killed. So while many have been killed during the war, none of those "thousands upon thousands" are killed at the end of it.

Well, this topic is here now and can serve the purpose of discussing the jedi academy game. I'm less certain of how many will respond to it, though. Not that I haven't played and liked jedi academy myself - I have and did - but I consider the KotOR games to be better games, and in either event I have moved on and left jedi academy behind. I suspect this may be true of many others here. But we'll see. If it's true that people here need to discuss jedi academy, then there should be a fair amount of responses to a topic about it, methinks.

In that sense, yes, but then even the Borg were that original - they're basically just techno-vampires and little else (infected people will themselves become vampi... er, borg). If you can give your alien race a similar twist, then it's not a problem. For example, they could be braineating zombies instead of vampires, or they could be scientists always hunting for live specimens to experiment on... Nasty either way... A rival pirate with his own crew to compete with the PCs is a very good idea. If he succeeds in stealing victory from the PCs, especially if he does it by stealing their loot, then you can really get the players going Now that you say Federation, take a look at the plot behind the old BBC show Blake's 7, which had an evil Federation as badguys. Lots of inspiration to steal from there, I think, since the show is so ancient that nobody will know it. The main badguy in the first couple of seasons was even this complete psycho of commander hunting the good guys for the evil Federation called Travis. And you're welcome.

Uhm, since all enemies scale according to your experience level, it actually makes all the difference in the game...

Lucky for us too - we might actually get a finished product

They planned it, yes, but there were a number of lay-offs, the initial plans were dropped, and LA has taken a lot of flak over the unfinished nature of KotOR2. So while I'm hoping for KotOR3, I won't be holding my breath until LA actually announces it.

I swear, sometimes I wish that KotOR3 has a scene where Revan is beaten by a gungan scoundrel and Exile by two gizka just to prove that it's the writers who decide the powerlevels and not some bloody stats... <_<

I'm not sure about Mira, but Atton can definitely still use his after turning into a jedi without being restricted in certain powers - I usually let him keep his jacket throughout the game.

1. Why? Because it is trolling. And you are swallowing the bait whole. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're right - that's why I asked a question instead of blowing my top off... Well, that sure puts me in right place and proves how much of a fanboy I am - I guess I'll run off to the rain now Anyway, since it's quite apparent to me that you're either unwilling or unable to participate in a constructive discussion, I shall take your advice and not listen to any more of your pointless postings [hits the "ignore" button]

Strictly speaking, LS ending is if you destroy Malachor V, and DS ending is if you let it continue to exist and stay to explore the Sith mysteries there... I'm not sure at which point which ending you get is set, though. However, it seems to me that given people can apparently kill all the jedi masters and still get the LS ending, then it would seem it is not set until you reach Malachor V. Has anyone gotten Force Crush and still had the LS ending or vice versa, gained Force Enlightenment and then the DS ending?

That's presuming that "essays of voer 4000 words" is a major undertaking. It may be for you, but it would seem it is not for neither Hekate nor myself, since we are able to post so many lengthy posts in such a short time. Pardon me, but please explain to me how this is not trolling or flaming... Besides, who is more the foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?

Because

[Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] *** Scathing sarcasm alert! ... Warning! Warning! Rhetoric flailling wildly!! *** You know, I don't think putting a ** sarcasm ** note in front of anything makes what you say afterwards any less problematic. If I say something really insulting or inflammatory, then I cannot invalidate it at the end just by putting a smiley there either... I was once on a board where some guy thought he could say whatever he liked to people and then avoid the fallout by using that tactic. The results were not pretty... [shudder] [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Why is it that if Visas is subserviant to Exile, she has to do everything s/he tells her to? Because that's what the word means: "adj 1: compliant and obedient to authority" And before the word we used was "submission", which doesn't make it any better: "The act of submitting to the power of another" Neither definition fits Visas, as far as I can tell, since she is perfectly willing to openly refuse the exile's wishes. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] And here i thought we were to "You shouldn't think of it as a struggle or competition. The point of the topic is not for one of us (or anyone else here) to "win", but us - collectively - to search for the truth or at least establish a concensus in some form". And congratulations on your victory, have a cigar. You're allowed to use sarcasm, but I'm not allowed to be self-ironic?!? That was below the board... and uncalled for... :"> [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Brianna: "you did not have feelings for her... did you?" Exile: whatever incarnation of "no" If he did, that would be a lie. Generally, honesty would be the best way to begin a relationship, i would think Ah, so if I meet a girl I like and she asks me if the dress she wears makes her look fat, then I should always answer truthfully regardless? Sorry, but that's always a trick question [Jediphile] That's always the problem with these things. We have no choice but to look at what is said, because that is our only frame of reference, but we sometimes forget that just because a character says it does not make it true. I believe that about Mical's claim that there were no one left to teach him after the Exile left, for example [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]*sigh* In the interest of not derailing the topic, I will say only that your comment has not gone unnoticed... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i meant as accepted pillars of light and goodness since in our understanding of reality, there is no generally cross-cultural accepted notion of what virtuous warriors would be as Jedi are in the SW universe. i specifically objected to the Reagan comparisson because, well, it's Reagan, but also because of the dubious nature of politicians and that in the accepted goodness category, it is lacking. KotOR2 would seem to suggest otherwise, since we hear repeatedly from the "common people" that they see the jedi and sith as just the same - as religious fanatics at opposite sides. No, the jedi are definitely not beloved guardians of light and truth during this age of Star Wars. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Vrook has a low opinion of Exile. Master Kavar did not, nor did Masters Zez-Kai Ell, Vandar, and Atris. You're forgetting the timetable, which is fairly significant here. Before the Mandalorian Wars, Vrook had a low opinion of the exile, Zez-Kai Ell and Vandar seem indifferent or impressed, while Atris and Kavar had high thoughts. When the exile was exiled, however, we know that they all had a low opinion, except Vandar, whom we know nothing about, although it would seem strange if he did not disapprove as much as the others. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] No, it would be like saying you admire Ghandi for his intelect. Something he naturally possesses and cannot be altered through working on it. How would I even know that he is intelligent if he doesn't do anything significant with it? Besides, would you admire someone for being born into a a particular gender, skin color, class, wealth or whatever? No offense to you, but to me that sounds awfully close to racism, which is why I'm so set against it. Sure you might admire an athlete, but not until he has won races. That's trained skill, not innate ability that he was just born with. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i used "hot" in the slang definition meaning: attractive, sexy, good looking... Not "hot" as in passionate, warm, friendly.... Still don't see how that applies to Atris... [Jediphile] Atris is blame-shifting. No doubt about that. And she does it in either case. As Kreia tells her, "you betrayed yourself, don't blame the Exile." But let's not forget those Sith holocrons. I doubt they helped matters any... Sure, Atris should have known better and controlled her emotions better, but she is like Denethor in Lord of the Rings (the novel, not the film), who has been secretly using the palantir and slowly been eroded by its corrupting effect. The sith holocrons have done the same with Atris - they have twisted all her unresolved emotions into something perverse and overpowering, and the relationship with the Exile is a particularly unclosed subject to exploit for them. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]Be that as it may, the Sith holocrons affect Atris' hero worship as well. Have I said otherwise? I do recall saying, "in either case"... Yes, I did say that... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] She didn't say "you have been on my mind", she says "you have been a presence in my mind". The implication is they felt eachother's presences, essences if you will, in eachother's psyches kinda as if they are Force bonded, especially since Sion had just spoken of how she, her presence, is something he feels inside himself. That's an interpretation, and if that is to be considered valid, then my interpretation of the Atris-Exile relationship would seem just as relevant. You avoided this in your last post, so let me bring it up again. Early on we have the scene with one handmaiden sister talking to Atris about the male exile, which is different from the female exile: Atris: "The exile reminded me of something... I had forgotten." Handmaiden sister: "Forgive me, mistress... but I must ask. The exile... I have never seen another effect you so strongly. Did you care for him once?" Atris: {Slight bitterness, doesn't want to admit she loved the player}"The Jedi have no such attachments.As always, he will do as he wills, and the galaxy... and the feelings of others... can burn for all he cares. The day we judged him, I stood in the chamber, and he was... he was so right. He was so certain of it, I doubted myself. He chose Revan over the Jedi, over the Council... over...{unspoken "me" at end}" Now, you have said yourself that this proves that Atris loves the male Exile, but not insists that this remains immaterial because it is not said out loud in spite of Brianna's question to the male Exile about having feelings for Atris (which clearly are not the same as for the female Exile). Now, I would argue that since I saw the above scene and I play the Exile, then it is supposed to be something I can presume that the Exile is also aware of, or else that scene would not have been on-screen (sort of a bit how Kreia tells Atton about the wars on Dxun - Exile is not there to hear it, but clearly s/he is fully aware of it all). Still, even if I accept that the exile might not know, we still have the following possibilities in the end, when the Exile finally faces Atris. Atris: "It is because I care for you. And I suspect that you alone hold that place in her heart, where nothing else lives. And that is why you are the only one who can stop the destruction to come." Now, again, given that Atris admires the female Exile and loves the male, that sentence does not carry the same meaning. As for the Exile returning those feelings, he/she can, during the same conversation, say: Exile: "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." Again, it's the same for an exile of either gender, but since it's just admiration for the female and love for the male, it does not carry the same meaning. QED. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] To get more specific; someone a person thinks of and has whatever feelings for is more personally significant to said person than one said person does not have those thoughts about nor feelings for. [Jediphile] Only the player can tell whether this is true, and I never believed that the Exile could have true emotions for Sion or that Sion was still capable of them himself. He's just a dark, twisted being longing back to something he remembers from his life and which is now lost. That's not true love, only the shadow of it. And I cannot believe that the Exile can love a being a dark as Sion is, because if she is DS, then she won't care - there is no true love among the Sith - and if she is LS, then all the evil things he does will scare her off to such an extent that no true emotions will ever grow to the surface. So it's all doomed either way. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]i don't see how there can be any doubt about my previous statement. Someone Exile thinks about and has feelings for is more important to Exile than a person Exile does not think about nor have feelings for. That is pretty much a universal truth, i would think. Ah, but what are we talking about here? Are we talking universal truths and general terms, or are we talking about these specific characters in this specific plot? If we do the former, then I'll accept your statement as true, but I would also see it as trite and irrelevant, since nobody is likely to disagree with it as a general principle. If we're talking Sion and Exile, however, then it's a question of whether the principle applies at all to this specific situation. Hence my answer, "only the player can tell if that is true." I would have to accept that the feelings are there between Exile and Sion to accept that your statement is fitting, and as you know, I don't. Be careful about applying very broad generalizations to specific situations. The danger of making a flawed argument is huge. I mean, it is often wrong on principle. You may not think so in this case, but what if I said, "Everybody likes music. Britney Spears plays music. Therefore everybody loves Britney Spears." I doubt you'd let me get away with that, even if you did like Britney Spears [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i find difficulty in seeing consistency in what you have said. Just being DS does not make a person incapable of feeling love. Yuthura spoke of that in KotOR. Anakin felt love for Padme even when he was DS. But what is love? Are we talking about the act, the feelings, or the commitment? Anakin loved Padme, but he lost that love when he turned to the dark side. He says himself that he wants more and that he knows he shouldn't, but he still makes the choice to take power and allows Palpatine to use his love as a catalyst for turning him to evil. It seems unlikely to me that he felt true love as much as self-imposed delusion at this point, because how can he honestly expect Padme to love him after he has killed children and seeks to seize power and do away with the democracy that she clearly loves so much? And Yuthura was not completely lost to the dark side - like Juhani she was DS out of confusion and delusion and could be turned LS. I do not believe that the Sith know love in the sense that we usually think of it. Sure, they know passion, lust, and infatuation. But real love - the love that comes from commitment and dedication - takes trust, and that the Sith don't have. They may be able to feel love, but I don't think they can truly expeirence it. The jedi can feel and experience true love (as we saw for Anakin before his fall and for Jolee), only they are not allowed to embrace it. As Anakin says, "we are encouraged to love", although only to a point... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i did not know Atton could be player controlled. If he is then basically he has to win since if he doesn't the game goes to the "game over" screne since every party member dies. i don't understand how they could have his being mutilated then killed by Sion part in there since he would have to win... *confusion* As I understand it, you can play him and then either defeat or lose to Sion. If you lose, Atton dies. If you win, Atton lives. But I could very easily be mistaken. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] And you are right that a direct tie to Exile's past is significant. So are you now rescinding on your earlier dislike of using that as a comparisson basis? I fear I'm not going to step into your little trap. You know full well that what I said was a dismissal of your suggestion that Mical was somehow a more significant character because he had a direct tie to the Exile's past. Since the alternate character is Brianna, that suggests that she must therefore be less interesting since she has no such tie to the Exile's past. I dismissed that argument and said that it seemed unreasonable to assume that this made Brianna's story any less significant or compelling, and *then* I said that it would hurt the plot if *all* characters had to have a direct tie to the Exile's past for them to be interesting in the plot. That is not the same as the dislike that you mention. I'm afraid you're not going to score brownie points here. But thanks for playing... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] The argument Sion himself is incapable of having feelings would make this new point impossible. He cannot both be someone who is not capable of feeling and someone who logically should be more sincere to himself about what his feelings are. Which is why I think his alleged emotions make no sense and hurt the plot. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] We don't know if Sion and Exile have a history or not. Exile can't even remember the face of the guy who was supposed to be her/his padawan, nor the face of the guy who made the MSG and activated it eventhough Exile was looking right at Bao-Dur as s/he gave the activation order. While it can be asumed they do not have a tie since it isn't mentioned thus by default it would suggest it isn't there, since there is so much cut content, it is a possibility they may have had a backstory. What a nice "we don't know"-argument. Basically you're implying that because there is no evidence that Sion and Exile did not know each other in the past, then they probably did. No, you don't say it - you very carefully avoid saying it - but it is the unspoken conclusion, isn't it? I mean, what value does that observation have, if that's not the conclusion? That you very clearly avoided saying it, though, suggests to me that you know it is a flawed argument, and that we cannot presume anything from what we simply do not know. But I'll give you this much: If a past relationship between female Exile and the man that Sion *used to be* had been established, then the romance between them would make far more sense. It would have been a very convenient thing for the devs to do. But they didn't, and we have to live with it now. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Even with ignoring that possibility though, the notion Sion's feelings had not had time to become twisted and perverse seems rather weak since Sion's perspectives and perceptions are themselves twisted, thus his feelings for Exile would naturally begin twisted and perverse. Another "we don't know"-argument, basically... This one I really don't like, since it sounds to me like it suggests that we can do just anything with Sion because he's twisted, insane, and generally evil. As both a GM and an RPG-player, I *hate* it when the bad guys do cruel and stupid things just because, well, they're evil and that's what they do... Sorry, but that's how I feel about it. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] By the same token, dismissing Mical for having those feelings on the basis he was to be her padawan is then voided as well since it didn't happen and thus has no bearing on the conversation. That depends on how likely it is that it would have been a problem, had it come to pass. Given the examples of Jolee's wife and master Kae, it seems fairly obvious to me that there would more than likely have been trouble at some point. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]i just replayed that scene and Atris had just said "We are not the ones who taught her/him" to which Vash responded. Atris was speaking of herself not being to blame for Exile going to war against the Council's decree. Later in that conversation, as Atris is going on about Exile rather passionately, Zez-Kai Ell says "What would you have done with her/him Atris? Be mindful of your feelings..." which means he saw and/or felt Atris' feelings for Exile were too strong. Hence my point the Masters were aware she felt that strongly thus their not dealing with Atris' feelings makes for a disturbing plot hole. It is obvious Atris wasn't good at hiding her feelings as both Masters Vash and Zez-Kai Ell pointed out. Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone. It is quite obvious that Atris is disappointed and disapproving of the Exile in this scene. Sure, you and I know that there are other emotions at work, but the masters wouldn't. I see Vash, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell getting the same disapproval and frustration from Atris as they undoubtedly do from grumply old Vrook. I do not see Atris revealing her emotions of love or admiration for the exile in that scene, or rather, I don't see that they are in any way obvious to the other masters. She just seems disappointed, disapproving of the exile's actions. I also see her being angry and vengeful, which is why Zez-Kai Ell steps in and tells her to mind her feelings. Her love/admiration for the exile, however, is not displayed in an obvious manner IMHO. So I fear you'll have to look for your plothole elsewhere. These are not the droids you're looking for... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] There are such things as interventions. If a person isn't aware s/he is doing something wrong, than it needs to be brought to her/his attention. Just assuming Atris will figure it out is too dangerous for the Council to do. They may very well be arrogant, but they do not seem to have difficulty pointing out eachothers' flaws and weaknesses. You cannot help someone with a problem they deny they have. The first step towards healing is always to acknowledge that you have a problem, so I don't believe that an intervention would help until after Atris admits to herself that she has a problem. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i think supressing and denying as we are applying them are 2 different things. i am using supress mean to hold back and to push down. To deny means to ignore and to pretend it doesn't exist. So supressing is controlling them as in, not letting them control the person. Suppression is not what you say: "Psychiatry. Conscious exclusion of unacceptable desires, thoughts, or memories from the mind." If controlling emotions is suppression and is wrong or harmful, then the logical conclusion is that you must give in to your emotions to remain healthy. I doubt you think so, since it would then naturally follow, that you should never rein yourself in, when you get angry at someone. Self-control is not the same as suppression. Note the "expulsion of... from the mind" above. Bao-Dur doesn't put it out of his mind, because that would mean he consciously tries to forget it. He doesn't. He remembers his dreams, and he talks about them. That's dealing with your emotions. You don't have to give in to your emotions in order to deal with them. It is often enough that you acknowledge that you have them, even if you then decide not to act on them. For example, if I have a big crush on a girl, but decide not to pursue my infatuation because I see trouble down the road for various reasons, then that does not mean that I'm suppressing my emotions - I'm making a conscious choice not to pursue emotions that I accept that I have. And eventually those emotions will then just go away. As a human being, I have the choice overrule my emotions, not act on them, and then bring closure to them. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]He escaped of his own volition, meaning, he left the Sith and went to Nar Shadaa. He escaped because he knew he was going to be "drafted" into the dark jedi ranks soon whether he liked it or not... He may have left on his own volition, but I dare say he had rather a lot of *ahem* "persuasion" to leave... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]As above, i don't see why their responsibility for Malachor V has to be mutually exclusive. They are both responsible. Yes, they're both responsible, but neither of them can afford to see it that way. Well, at least Bao-Dur cannot, I'm still not certain about the Exile, who seems to be far more in denial. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]Bao-Dur can accept his role, it is only Exile's he cannot. He does not suddenly lose the power he has over the situation by aknowledging Exile's role. Yes, that's precisely what he would do, because that means it was the Exile's choice and not his, and that is worse than accepting that he had no choice himself. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]It seems to have more to do with how he sees Exile as opposed to his not accpeting Exile gave the Order. His stating he knows Exile gave the Order means he is aware of it, and when in the Jedification discussion he states he is aware he has to see Exile as not responsible indicates he sees Exile as sacrosanct. As someone he cannot attribute that responsibility to. i can't figure out why he needs to do that though. It's because he cannot hold the exile responsible without reducing his own sense of guilt and responsibility. Bao-Dur says that the Exile had no choice - s/he had to give the order, since it was war, and the Mandalorians had to be defeated, etc. The Exile was a general. Generals lead troops in battles, and so it was the Exile's job to kill the enemy by whatever means. He cannot blame the exile for doing his/her job. But he can blame himself for giving the Exile the MSG - he can blame himself for luring the Exile into giving them order by offering him/her a terrible weapon so powerful that no warlord could resist using it to kill millions. If only Bao-Dur had not created the bloody thing, all those people would not have died, the "general" would not have been exiled, the jedi would not have fallen to the dark side, and so and so forth. Yes, it's a bit of a self-delusion, of course, but given the choice between accepting that and accepting that Bao-Dur had no influence or significance on what was to happen, it becomes easier to accept the responsibility, because that at least means that you had some control over the outcome. The opposite means that you were powerless, that it could likely happen again because you probably still are, and that there is nothing you can do about it. In that situation most would rather prefer to believe that they do have a choice, even if heavy guilt comes with it. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i guess we have wildly different views on what "My life for yours" means. In this context it means, "I'm willing to give my life so that you can live, because you have the power to defeat the evil that we that must be overcome, while I do not, and therefore your survival is more essential than mine." At least it does to me. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i didn't see it. i saw she was single-mindedly focused on her task of bringing Exile to Nihilus. i heard her speak submissively to Exile. i heard her defer to Exile's will other than with the dancing for Vogga thing. i heard her voice concern and/or disagreement but back down at Exile's protest. Those are acts of submission. Not of equalitly. And there is no middle ground between submission and equality? Besides, I don't agree that this is submission for the reasons stated above. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Yes, she does state Exile could potentially defeat Nihilus when s/he is ready. She also suggests Nihilus could be defeated by Exile depending on one's interpretation of the sentence in bold. But her priority is to bring Exile to Nihilus in a state wherein Exile is either strong enough to defeat Nihilus or to be good feeding for Nihilus. That does not seem so likely to me... What would prevent Nihilus from letting the Exile grow stronger while captured until Nihilus was ready to "eat" the Exile? Besides, Visas senses in the first cutscene that the Exile is a threat, so if she is still loyal to Nihilus, it does not make much sense to allow the Exile to grow stronger, since that would just increase the odds that he might kill Nihilus. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] In other conversations she states she hates all life and came to view life the same way Nihilus did when he made her see. In this paragraph, she states Exile is important to her for the potential Exile has by virtue of the unique quality s/he has of being a Force wound. Visas knows nothing about the Exile's force wound until Exile tells her after the meeting with the masters. She just knows that the exile is a threat to Nihilus. And I don't see her hating all life. I just see her not daring to see the worth in it until after Nihilus is destroyed. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]It is Exile's nothingness she sees as precious, rare, and as having the ability to destroy everything. She is not willing to let that go to waste by Exile confronting Nihilus too soon. But the very line you put into bold type can be interpreted a different way: as her saying there is the chance Exile will be able to destroy the Force since Exile would have to defeat Nihilus in order to do so. That's Kreia's particular hobby-horse, not Visas' [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] She is willing to accept death because Exile tells her to which is his, in essence, telling her he does not value her since Nihilus can be defeated without sacrificing Visas. She accepts this and thus commits suicide. The option he has to just walk away from her as she is lying dying emphasizes this. You cannot conclude something about the Exile in general based on a DS act that the exile may or may not choose. And even if the LS exile did this, we cannot speculate that Visas was killed just because the exile didn't like her - Nihilus may have been tough to fight and left the exile with the impression that he could never be defeated unless they first weakened him by sacrificing Visas. That what "you must be sacrificed if I'm to live" means to me anyway - that Visas must die to weaken Nihilus so that exile can then live and kill him. Sure you can defeat Nihilus without killing Visas, but we can't be sure whether the exile was aware of that. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Visas clearly stated she did hate life. As she spends time with Exile and the others, her perspective changes. But the fact she is willing to kill herself eventhough she has come to see value in life indicates she is subserviant to male Exile to the extent of putting that servitude ahead of her own life. To the male Exile? How is that any different for the female Exile? And again, no, I do not agree. She is not subservient to the exile. She is submitting herself to the needs demanded by her cause of destroying Nihilus, not the exile. That she must therefore follow the exile's will on occasion is just a side-effect. And as we have already established, she certainly does not blindly obey. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i can't see how Atton has an inferiority complex to Exile. He sees Jedi as scum. He says at least the Sith are honest. Sure he says it - how else can he justify himself and his own actions? But he doesn't believe it. He also says, "How can you even live with yourself?" That is far more significant, because that's what he is looking for himself - to be able to live with himself. He cannot really do that at the moment - he is still running from himself and has been since Malachor. Being able to live with himself is the skill he wants to learn from the exile. He doesn't realise that the exile is probably even more in denial in some ways than he is himself. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Where did it state the majority of the older Jedi and Jedi Masters lost their padawans? When i think of it in terms of population pyramids, there is the smaller number of Masters at the top. The population base increases as the age of the Jedi decreases. The majority of the population per sector would be at the bottom with younglings since many are not accepted to further their training past the youngling or apprentice stage. Now the Exar Kun War drastically decreased the Jedi numbers. I don't see where you get that from, and in any event, it was close to four decades before the time frame we're talking about. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]So it took some years to build-up the Jedi numbers since those who were left over are the ones who had to go about recruiting, training, and becoming Masters to the new younglins. Those who were the second and third (depending on how it is counted. i am doing so based on from the time of youngling to Jedi able to train younglings) generations leave to go to the Mandalorian Wars. So there is a hole in the pyramid where those, such as Exile, who would teach the next generation are depleted. First of all, there is no complete hole in the pyramid, since it was not an entire generation of jedi that left. Many stayed. Bastila, for example. Clearly Juhani did too. And there seem to be more jedi of their age in the enclave in K1. Revan split the order. He did not cut it in two. But yes, some of the pyramid is missing, but what I don't understand is why the remains of the pyrmid cannot connect and fill out the blanks. The old masters who used to teach padawans have no padawans now, so they must teach younglings instead. The pick up the slack and the numbers add up. Problem solved. All we hear about it is how all the young jedi who had probably just become knights or were still padawans were the ones to leave. Those are not teachers. The only one who ever suggests that is Mical, and he is just one person. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Yes, the older Jedi did lose some padawans, but i think number wise, there would be more younglings left without teachers than there were Masters without padawans. Also, i have trouble believing padawans who were not yet ready for their trials would have been too likely to go off to war. They wouldn't seem to be proficient enough as not-even-Jedi to be out there fighting wars. It is sorta like cadets fighting along side soldiers. At least that is my understanding of it. Is it just me or is that precisely what Revan's army initially consisted of? Always sounded like that to me.

Not greatly, I think. Strength only increases attack and damage by one for every two points of the ability above 10. Strength 10 is therefore +0 and Strength 20 +5. Not exactly significant, given the massive bonuses you can get from the various crystals and what not... I usually played a sentinel/jedi master with Str. 14, and I had no trouble hitting my opponents, even on the the highest difficulty level...

Yes, but the TSLRP is rather far along in the development process, at least as far as I can tell from the list of progression on their site, where a lot of "chapters" seem to have reached beta-stage already.

Kreia: "Some said that Revan was born in the Outer Regions, beyond the Rim, and that's what called to him during the Mandalorian Wars... and after.It was the call of home." I'm not sure if this points to a prior connection between Revan and the true Sith, but it is a possibility. I wouldn't like that myself, though, since it would suggest Revan did all those things just because of some tie to the true Sith and not as a consequence of choice. Besides, if Revan were true Sith, then he should have some sith blood in him, and there is nothing to suggest that Revan was ever anything but human IMHO. Do we? I actually think we know enough about Revan to warrant his involvement already...

You get it automatically as part of the story if you play DS. About 70-80% through the game, after you have found all the jedi masters. Don't worry about it, as it will come automatically. Still, I like the LS power better...