Jediphile

That doesn't neccesarily mean Kavar recognized her as Arren Kae - only that he recognized her as someone from the wars. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> True, but with the other observations, it is circumstantial evidence that establishes many similarlities between Kae and Kreia. And some people have argued in the past that Kreia did not fight in the wars. Kavar's statement suggests otherwise, methinks.

I think it's pretty poor taste to paint those of us who don't like 3e as grumpy old hawks just because we don't like 3e. For example, you could try to actually READ the reasons I gave for not liking 3e. I even said that ACs and to-hit going up is fine and that I like the 3e multi-class system better than the 2e one. And yet you claim that people like me say that any change is bad? I say: Bias, your name is Alanschu! Try actually considering the points that other people make before you troll them - it does tend to improve on the level of discussion and civility...

1. Arren Kae was believed to have died on Malachor V, but her body was never recovered. When Kreia confronts the council, Kavar's first comment to her is, "I thought you had died in the Mandalorian Wars!" 2. Kreia tells us that she was Revan's first and last master. Disciple tells us that Arren Kae had Revan as a padawan, and that he returned to his original master in the end. 3. Kreia was exiled from the jedi order for her dark side teachings. Kae was apparently exiled for having a child (Brianna), but was exiled for it only a decade later. Compared to Jolee Bindo's transgressions (teaching his wife against the will of the council, watching her fall to the dark side, failing to kill her when she tried to murder him, then watching her kill other jedi), it seems very harsh to exile her, when Jolee was completely forgiven for his crimes, which are far worse. Hint: Only Kreia tells us that having a child is why Kae was exiled. In fact, she just says that the order exiled Kae when they found out she had a child - she didn't actually say that was the reason for Kae's exile, and knowing Kreia that can be a rather important distinction. 4. K(ae)+(T)raya=Kraya=Kreia. 5. Atris tells the Exile, "Kreia? That is not her real name." And no, her "real" name is not Traya. When you confront Atris, the first thing she says is that Atris is gone and has been for some time, clearly suggesting that Atris thinks that she is now Traya, making Traya more of a position than a name. Whatever Kreia's real name is, it is neither Kreia, nor Traya. And the masters seem to not know the name "Kreia", if we take the cut content into consideration, since Vash actually mentions the name "Kreia" without connecting her to the outcast master. Conclusion from these observations: Kreia may indeed be Kae. Facts that clearly contradict this theory: none.

I've looked all over, but can't find them all. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Try here

Time for Team America to step in, I guess... :ph34r:

Oh please. Stop trying to be clever, it's not like you are new here. I was in fact granting you the benefit of doubt, as only someone that hadn't watched the games could say that France plays defensively. Usually I'd agree with that statement applying to Italy, but their last two matches at least prove they don't always do that. It's not a matter of opinion either, pally. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, it is, as it almost always is with sports, except for the facts (number of goals scored, players booked or sent off, etc.). The french have been very defensive, and have survived because nobody can seem to break through their defense. Apart from that they have used the fast breaks they get well. This does not mean that they play very creatively - they looked old against South Korea. IMHO they are efficient mostly at destroying the play of the other teams, but if they were good offensively, they would have scored many more goals than they have. They scored three goals against Spain, which is the only decent game they've played, and they scored nearly as many goals in that match as they did in the rest of the tournament. Teams winning because the opposition beat themselves to pieces on France's defense and then lose only from very few goals scored on the fast breaks when they push the issue suggests destructive football to me. Apart from the match against Spain, the french game has been very boring and defensive. Whatever. I have a right to my opinion, just as you have a right to your's, no matter how misguided I may think it is. He's overrated. He dives when he should take it like a man and keep going. He would rather get a penalty kick than a fair goal. That's enough for me to dislike a player. Sure, he's not the only one doing that. But I don't like those others that do the same, either. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, I'm not going to argue there. Fact is, as long as players are not punished more for diving, they will continue to do it, because it can decide matches. Sent them off the field and it'll be fine by me, as long as it's done fairly and across the board.

I'm going to assume you haven't been watching the last games. So, before making this sort of clueless comment, watch the games. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ooh, I have been trolled! How quaint. And obviously I can't have seen the games, since I have an opinion. After all, you can't have an opinion, if you've actually seen the game, as you have now clearly demonstrated... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't understand why people hate this guy so much. He's a good player, though Portugal sadly didn't get enough out of him. He is a bit green, though. And he should dive a bit less. The ref would probably award more of the fouls against him with a free kick if he did... It was unflattering how much the Portuguese tried to cheat, but then I don't think they're much worse than any of the other teams.

Get the paper backs - they're more complete anyway.

They had a bond, yes, but it's nothing like the one between Kreia and Exile. The typical bond is the one between master and padawan, but Obi-Wan doesn't die or even get hurt just because Qui-Gon is killed. The same is true for Revan/Bastila or Vash/Kaah. That Kreia losing a hand hurts Exile at all makes their bond unique, since that is practially unheard of.

You can't have tried to many other systems then... Sure, d20 is easy to learn, but only because it's about the most rigid and inflexible system around. If you like having no options as a player, then d20 is for you. Personally I'll stick with just about anything else...

As you know, Eldar, that was one of the key selling points by WotC, (aside from 3e being streamlined) that there would be a concise singular ruleset without many variants, no more kits..etc. I remember that campaign. Ironic how the reality is different from what they had first claimed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, I remember it as well. And I was actually looking forward to tossing out all of my old house rules. No more gazillion "optional" books, no more rules spread out all over the books, no more 100+ pages of house rules to reconcile it all... Oh, how mistaken I was... Oh no, there were no "kits" anymore, but it hardly matters when it's just called something else instead. Now there are no character classes and spells in every single new supplement, issue of dragon, revised rulebook, etc. etc. Not to mention that 3e is every bit as rigid as 2e if not more so, and the 2e-to-3e conversion rules were just horrible - there was no way to fairly convert the 11th level minotaur fighter or 10th/10th level dwarven fighter/cleric to 3e screwing the players over royally, and with all the other stupid rules I kept hearing about, it was one of the easiest choices I ever made as a GM - I had no reason whatsoever to invest in 3e, because it was embarrasingly obvious that it would not enhance my game in any way. That's not to say there aren't good things in 3e. The to-hit rules and Armor Classes are better than in 2e. I don't agree with Lancer here. I find it just easier in 3e, so I adopted it into my 2e campaign. Very easy. Just 20 - old AC = new AC. 20 - old THAC0 = new class to-hit modifier. That's it - end of conversion. But that is all the impact 3e had on my campaign. The rest was worthless. I like other things. If I began a new campaign today, I would use 3e multi-class rules under 2e rules, since they make more sense to me. But 3e skills are terrible next to 2e proficiencies (which is just another word for skills). 3e forcing skills to be tied to class+level is just about the most idiotic thing I ever heard of, and the skill points are awarded very haphazardly as well. It doesn't look to me like a system that is in any way founded on any firmly established base as much as just applied according to what the creators "assume" players will choose - wizards will "probably" choose a high Intelligence, so they get few skill points, while Concentration is based on Constitution, because it would be unfair to base it on Wisdom (which is a measure of willpower even according to the 3e PHB, but apparently that is not relevant to a character's ability to concentrate ), because that favors clerics... So instead logic is thrown to the winds, which just tastes like an unfinished product to me. I preferred the proficiency rules from the Player Option: Skills & Powers, where you buy a skill with a beginning rating, modified by relevant ability, and can be increased to a maximum of 16 whenever you want to pay for it. Far more relevant. But 3e killed it because it insisted on enforcing fixed and inflexible classes over player choice, which is unkind, unflattering and very poor game design, if you ask me. Why should I waste any money on 3e? I still have no answer to that question, probably because there isn't one. I'm not a die-hard 2e gamer. I did give 3e a chance. It just failed miserably because it was so pathetic, and I will not hesitate in saying that I think so. It's not a particularly bad system as such, but it's not D&D (and I know 3e players who say so) and is woefully outdated for a game released after 2000. Most other new interesting RPGs out there have far better design than 3e has. It's no better than 2e even after more than a decade of RPG experience, which was disappointing in the extreme. I'm not going to deny that there could be advantages to having only one RPG base around. The problem is that if there is to be such a base, then 3e/d20 is about the LAST system ever that should be chosen for it, since it's the most rigid and inflexible system around at all. GURPS would be far better suited for that sort of thing IMHO.

So? I don't insult people and get all hostile if they prefer 2nd edition. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Quoted for truth. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> We were talking about how intuitive it is compared to 2nd edition, not which is better. Given the responses that have occurred while you were gone, seems like I'm not the only person. Surely you will put in your quibble about AoO right about now. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If not, I will. I don't agree with him that AD&D armor classes going down is better, but AoOs are an additional rule of top of the other rules that just serve to slow the game down more. You can ignore them, of course, but then game balance is out the window, because the rules are written with the assumption that you'll play with them. So? You were alleging that the only reason why I could make the relationship that a higher number in armor rating would be better is because of previous precedent. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Eye of the Beholder was fairly crap and was a total rip-off of the classic "Dungeon Master" anyway, only without most of the atmosphere...

Crap! Now it's Italy vs. France in the final :angry: I can't think of two teams that play more boring football, since they both defend, defend, defend I hate it when defensive play is rewarded, especially since one of them now will be world champions, and none of them deserve it IMHO.

Kreia says so, and there are voice files from a cutscene which is now cut content, where Atris orders Brianna to spy on the Exile. The male Exile, that is. You must have missed the cutscene where Kreia steps out to the handmaidens and says that their mistress has something to tell them, then they all run in to Atris' chambers and we just hear the thumbs. Never left much doubt in my mind that Atris killed them all, but I suppose we could also argue they sat down for tea and a chat... I'm not the only one, it seems. He's a bit boring, but hating him seems unfair.

As I have argued before, Mical is part of the Exile's past, but doesn't add much to the Exile's present IMHO. He's not insignificant, but he has very little impact on the plot beyond making a connection to a past that the Exile has left behind and explaining some of the Exile's connection (or lack thereof) with the force that you also learn about from other characters anyway... The handmaiden sisters did not have Master Kae as their mother, which is fairly essential to Brianna's story (and which is now lost to canon). How is Brianna in any way present in the game beyond a cameo at best in the female Exile's story?!? If you like the female Exile's plot, then fair enough, but I'll maintain that female Exile means no jedi Handmaiden, no betrayal of Atris, and no Brianna in the end at all. She becomes a lost character so uninteresting that the plot doesn't even pick on her when the Exile returns to Telos. Female Exile = No Brianna!

I read the new KotOR comic books, though I've been unable to get a hold of issue 1 yet Nice so far, though it's a bit hard to believe that benign jedi masters would casually decide to murder their own padawans like that just from having a single vision, the interpretation of which is highly doubtful. That's hard to swallow, but then their deception may serve as the beginning of the dissent within the jedi order, in which case it would be a beginning that demands further explanation. I still trust the story enough to give it the benefit of the doubt in that regard. As for the tales of the Jedi, I have all of them, except the "Jedi vs. Sith" series (which is much closer to the movie era than the KotOR era).

Just don't say that around the Revan fanboys... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I disagree - please DO say it around them, preferably repeatedly and loud

That's inviting quite an argument there <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Agreed - very compelling... I doubt it would be possible for me to disagree more... In the female Exile story, Sion went from being a terrifying, all-powerful, and haunting sith lord to being a love-sick little puppy-boy with an unfortunate undead condition... To call it anti-climactic would be the understatement of the year, I think - more appropriate to call it sickening

Yes, but she was still unable to understand the nature of the Exile's bond with Kreia, so it's not as if you're going to find a big revelation, even if you dig through the cut content. In fact, what she says is this: Master Vash: "We were mentally bonded.Kaah was pulled to the Dark Side through his fear. He could no longer feel our bond.It is painful to lose one to whom you are bonded. But it is not fatal.{concerned}That is most unnatural. This bond you share with Kreia is not like any I've ever heard of. How did it come to be?{pensive}Look within for the answer. We are each solely accountable for everything in our lives. Nothing ever happens to us unless we allow it."

Why? Because as near as I can figure, Brianna is DEAD in the female Exile plot! Note how Atris kills all the handmaidens. Now, if Brianna is still on the academy, then what does that mean? And do you see her when you return to the academy as the female Exile? No, you don't - look through all the rooms, if you want. You're not going to find her. The last you'll ever see her is the one place where you actually get to talk to her in the entire game as a female Exile. Or are we going to presume that that Atris killed all the handmaidens sisters, but left precisely Brianna alive for some odd reason in the female Exile's story? Perhaps that will happen in order to not completely annoy people who actually cared a little about Brianna, such as myself, but honestly - that's some pretty bad storytelling, which is worse than seeing her dead IMHO A curse on Leland Chee - may his car have flats on all tires and may he be barked at by a dog named Rover! LA hasn't considered these consequences one bit, I fear... And why would the Exile's companions found an academy on Telos? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. If they going to do so, it is far more likely to be in a place where the jedi order has some reputation, such as Dantooine, or - even better - Coruscant. I don't get that at all. I find Sion's "love" for the female Exile both sickening, inappropriate, uncompelling, and - worse - an unflattering add-on which is there only to mirror Atris' love for the male Exile, but which has no basis in the plot and it just splashed all over the plot very unattractively as an impolite afterthought. Yuck! And Atris doesn't care as much for the female Exile as she did for the male Exile. If she had, then she would have sent Brianna to spy on the female Exile as well, and we all know that she didn't. I don't see that Atton was any more interesting in the female Exile's story than in the male's - he's a lost soul in either case, and I actually find his ruin to be more poignant without the romance option in the picture. Still, I might have felt different about it, if they hadn't cut the Sion/Atton or Disciple/Atton fights from the game. But I must say that I don't understand why peole hate Mical so much. Yes, I find him rather annoying too, though mainly for the poor voice-acting. As for being a goodie-boy, he would have been far more interesting, if his own inablility to influence the Exile's decision to leave for the war had weighed upon him rather than listening to him preach to us all the time. But other than that, he's not a bad character, and he's not useless either - I frequently had him in my party once I turned him into a jedi, because his healing and meditation skills are very convenient. Yes, Mical has his voice and manners a bit against him, but I don't see why this makes people hate him quite that much...

McAfee is anti-virus, not a firewall, isn't it? Anyway, it is limited in duration if free (and actually if you pay too...), so I don't use it. For free anti-virus with endless updates and no deadline in sight (so far - it says there is one but keeps pushing it whenever I get within three months of it...), I use anti-vir, which I believe is a german program, but then who cares - a professional computer geek adviced to me a few years back, and I've never had problems with it. http://www.free-av.com/ As for the reasoning behind not trusting such a program, I don't agree with it. After all, it's in everyone else's interest that I don't spread vira or other stuff around, so giving me a free program that doesn't work is a very bad idea, unless they want to spread the very vira they claim to fight. I've never had to pay for firewalls or anti-virus, and I don't intend to either. The same goes for anti-spyware programs, where I use both Spybot and Ad-Aware.

Well, that seems to confirm that LA decided to assign gender based solely on a basis of equality - Revan was male, Exile must be female, no matter what Consequences: Brianna is a non-entity now. She barely exists. And there is no betrayal for Atris anymore. Disciple gets to be in there with his musings instead. A shame for K2, I think, since I thought the male version was a far stronger story. Yes, you may now flame me for having the nerve to like the male Exile's story better than the female's - see if I care...

No, it's not freeware, but you can download and use it without paying link

So did I, but they closed the support for it when someone bought the company (Symantic, I think). A damn shame too. That was a good program

I think my system is doing a number on me, because it won't let me initialize Zonealarm properly on start-up anymore, and it won't let me reinstall it either... So farewell to it. What can I use instead, if I'm too much of a cheapskate to pay a single penny?