Jediphile

Yes, that would be cool. Like I said, I've played in an Exalted (1st edition) campaign as a player. I mostly joined because some old compatriots/friends from other RPGS played it, but I found I rather enjoyed the variety. The major drawback is the huge backstory. If I decide to start my own Exalted campaign, that will be the biggest obstacle to overcome, though personally I found it interesting to immerse myself in, since it was so clearly not a Tolkien clone. The worst part for me were all the d10 rolls, split dice pools and what not - I've never quite got used to all the dice of the Storyteller systems, I fear...

I play very much Exalted. And the dice problem isn't really that bad. Sure, every once in a while you'll need to roll an absurd number of dice, but most of the time it's manageable. And it's fun. Second edition removes a bunch of dice rols too. So then there's even less, but more bookkeeping in combat instead (and more tactical). My group doesn't play second edition at all though. The more tactical nature doesn't really go well with the rest of the group, so we stuck with first edition, which works extremely well for us. How so, if I may ask? You see, I'm putting my ageold 2e campaign on forced retirement and abandoning D&D altogether. Since the players insist on playing fantasy, however, it looks to me like a choice between some variant of GURPS fantasy and Exalted. I've played Exalted 1st edition before (as a player), and I must say I rather liked the variety - fantasy, yet not another Tolkien-copy. I thought the difference between 1st and 2nd edition Exalted was primarily the revised defense values and some revised Abilities (War replaced Brawl for Dawn caste and Integrity replaced Endurance for Zenith caste). DISCLAIMER: Just it's clear - I love Tolkien and LOTR, and I always will. It's just that I've tried it (or rather all the clones) too much for now. What was the problem? From what I can tell at an admittedly cursory glance the differences seem very minor. The biggest problem with switching to Exalted it that there is a huge backstory with WhiteWolf giving very little help to the GM as to how much the characters know...

I agree. Something similar would seem to be true of Mace Windu, who embraces things close to the dark side, yet is one of the more prominent masters on the jedi council. Dark Jedi are those who embrace the dark side but don't not follow the Sith code or are not accepted by the Sith. The difference between Jedi and Gray Jedi seems to me to be mostly whether the person follows the jedi code and the verdicts of the jedi order. Your standard jedi follows the code and obeys the council. A gray jedi follows only one or neither. Jolee Bindo is a gray jedi. Not because he doesn't follow the light, but because can't be bothered to adhere to the jedi code or obey the jedi council - he follows his own moral compass rather than what the order puts before him. Despite what Jolee himself says, I don't agree that he does not follow the light. He follows Revan to "lead the snake away to keep it from harming people". That is a higly moral choice made for the sake of the common good, not one of neutrality or "I mind my own business". It's the same choice at the Rakatan temple - he will not accept Revan's choice if Revan embraces the dark side. So in the end, Jolee is just as dedicated to the light as any jedi - he just doesn't rely on the code or the council to guide him. Qui-Gon is a mixture of a jedi and gray jedi, as I see it. He is a member of the jedi order, but he doesn't follow the jedi code (which Obi-Wan gives as the reason why Qui-Gon is not the council himself), and he openly defies the council's decisions when he disagrees with them (as in the case of Anakin's training). But while he follows his own moral compass over the jedi code and the council's rulings, he remains a part of the order itself and so is not quite as gray as Jolee. To me Kreia is not a gray jedi. At all. She wears the trappings, but it's all for ulterior motives, and so I don't think it counts, even though she is powerful enough to manipulate the Exile into thinking so. I'd call her a dark jedi during TSL, since she is not really a Sith in that she doesn't follow their teachings. The Sith code says nothing about destroying the will of the force as far as I know. Indeed, it would be odd if it did, since harming the force itself would mean harming the very foundation of the Sith's power. In that sense you could say her cause has a "benevolent" streak, since what she hates about the force is that it dictates fates to common people, and out of a sense of justice, she cannot abide that. She doesn't hestiate to use those powers herself, however, nor does she hestiate to sacrifice other people for own purposes, so she is pretty hypocritical about it, which I would not say is generally indicate of gray jedi. No, she doesn't do it as an excuse to further her own power (like Anakin does), but the lengths and measures she is willing to go to make her motives moot.

Agreed. Both are beyond both old and antiquated as well as indicative of RPG principles that are now more than three decades old. 3e was the chance to once and finally abandon those to the winds, given that it did not shy back from knocking off a few holy cows of D&D. Yet it didn't, and so the game remains in a state of limbo, as it's "revised for a new generation" while still being based on a rigid and inflexible foundation that forces aspects and characteristics on the players. It's old and tired, and it hurts role-playing too IMHO. Not that much better than White Wolf's Storyteller games IMHO (but then they are VERY similar). Personally, the fantasy/sci-fi mixture of Shadowrun never quite worked for me. I'd go for either genre, but I don't care to have them put together. I like both lasagne and ice cream, but I wouldn't like to have them mixed together... For a classless system, I'd go for GURPS - far less dice. Though not without it's own problems. The setting is minimal for that, of course. For a fantasy RPG, I'm considering Exalted. Yes, it's got the dice problem too, but there are also advantages - for once it's a working fantasy not shamelessly copying Lord of the Rings, and I like the variety. Yes, it steals from other sources, but at least the fantasy flavour is a little different from what we get in the 3491734619237+ LOTR clones. It's an effort I appreciate.

Yeah, carrying a bag of dice is so annoying! D&D is so much better... http://www.thegamecloset.com/images/store%...ots/store24.jpg

I didn't think you were. Sorry if I gave you that impression.

Yes, but that's not surprising. As the project nears completion, interest resurfaces, which means the playtesters will explore the game more. It's also the point where the programmers themselves tend to test things more than they used to. I see it as a strength that all these come out now. These things are always there in any event, and it's a good thing that Team Gizka are aware of them upfront and dedicated to solve them, since it means the final mod will be more solid.

Actually, it cannot, since Lucasarts has already said that is not the case. http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/852/852342p1.html While I don't always credit IGN with dependable news, I do trust it when they quote the company directly for saying the LA/Bioware project has nothing to do with KotOR. This doesn't rule out the possibility that it's Star Wars related, however, just KotOR. Personally I think it's an MMORPG based on the years between Episodes III and IV, which is also where the live-action tv series is set chronologically, and which is to air next year when this game supposedly is to be released.

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/852/852342p1.html

My condolances to his family and P&P role-players everywhere. While I have at times voiced critical responses to Mr. Gygax's statements of the past, that should not be taken as a sign of disrespect - one of the fathers of RPG is gone... May he rest in peace.

I love how you read a massively positive article and pull out only the minor gripe. Not the only one.

Quite. And I note this:

How do you know we haven't already?

If you don't mind exploiting bugs, you can move Atton behind the bar and use a blaster. The sisters seem unable to get behind the bar, and since they use melee weapons, you can just stand there and blast them away at will, since they can't reach you with their weapons. A bit boring, perhaps, but it should work if you're stuck. Oh, and while I know you won't get the opportunity after the fight, remember to return to the bar later to pick up the blades they drop. They're nice weapons.

I played it without any patches, and didn't encounter a single problem. Same here. Never patched TSL, but it finished it a number of times with different character builds and in different ways. Short version: If it runs unpatched on your system, then don't worry about it. Indeed, I've heard patching it brings up glitches at times and thus chose never to patch it myself.

Well, I can't blame anyone for being confused by TSL's plot on finishing the game for the first time, because it's told very badly due to all the cut content. Suffice it to say, that the plot actually does hang together well, if you replay key sections of the game and pay exceedingly close attention to what is specifically being said. The thing that is not being told so well is the Exile's special status. The Exile is a wound in the force. This is not a natural ability, but was caused by what the Exile experienced at Malachor V at the end of the Mandalorian Wars. As for Traya, I don't agree that she intends to kill the force. She does, however, want to kill the WILL of the force. Some see it as the same and claim this would destroy all life, but we know that the force does not equal life, because if it did, how could life exist on Myrkr, where the Ysalamiri have the ability to "push back the force" and so disrupt force abilities? While Luke Skywalker lost his force abilities there, he was in no way otherwise harmed - he just lost the ability to call on the force. As Obi-Wan and Yoda would say, life creates the force, not the other way around. What Traya hates is that the force seems to have a will that dictates certain things to all living beings. Like Ahab in Melville's "Moby ****", she at war with "God". But how do you harm the force itself? Well, that's where the Exile comes in. The Exile is a wound in the force due his experiences on Malachor V. Remember that Revan set up Malachor V as a trap for both the Mandalorians and the Jedi. The Mandalorians were decimated, but the Jedi where brought to a point where they had to make a choice - either join Revan and fall to the dark side or die. That's what HK-47 is talking about, when mentions that Revan was "cleaning house". And note that the Exile alone made a third choice - the Exile was the only jedi who followed Revan and Malak to ever return and face trial by the Jedi Council. Why? Because the exile made a special choice. The exile forms force bonds very easily with others. This gives the exile a powerful ability, because he can connect easily with others through the force. But it also works the other way, and when the exile felt death and the dark side at Malachor V, the experience was so intense, that the exile instinctively cut his own connection to the force rather than choose either of the choices Revan had put before him - fall to the dark side or die. This is the reason the exile has no force connection during his exile and the beginning of the game. Kreia manages to infer that the masters cut the bond, but it was actually the exile himself, and Kreia knows it. Kreia is interested in the Exile because this gives him the ability to resist the will of the force. Morever, the exile can harm the force itself - when he resisted the fate to either die or turn to the dark side at Malachor V, he wounded the force rather than let it exert its will over him. The exile is oblivious and ignorant of all this until meeting with the masters again on Dantooine. The masters see a danger in the exile's ability. The exile has no force connection - he cut that on Malachor V. But he can access the force through his bonds with others, effectively using their force bonds to manipulate and use the force. As he does so, he "transmits" his pain and suffering through others, but he also kind of takes control of others. Note how some of the companions refer to "blinking out" for a moment during combat and blindly following the exile's chosen actions during a fight, especially for a light-sided character like Handmaiden, if the exile has taken a dark sided act. The masters fear this ability, but only that. They also see a connection between the exile and Nihilus' teachings. The masters don't know that it was Nihilus who attacked and devastated Katarr, but they do mention that when the felt the gathering of jedi die there, they felt something that they had only felt once before when the Exile returned to face trial by the jedi council after the Mandalorian Wars. There is a connection, and the masters fear that so much, that the opt to rather cut the exile from the force than risk letting this ability exist, since it could destroy all life (which is exactly what Nihilus represents, after all). Kreia then kills the masters, because they choose to destroy the exile's ability out of fear rather than study and learn from it. They made to same choice when they exiled her from the order, but since the exile is the proof that her teachings are valid, she will not permit that. Besides, she needs the exile's ability as her weapon in her war against the will of the force. This is also the reason Traya accepts death at the end of the game - she knows that only the exile, not herself, can ultimately fight the will of the force. But that is the exile's choice to make, and so she accepts death in her attempt to bring the exile closer to understanding her teachings and seeing things her way. Whatever else you choose to think about Traya, she is an idealist in the sense that she willingly sacrifices herself to further her cause and her teachings. She forces the exile to kill her to prove that point, in part so that her cause cannot be dismissed as a mere quest for power on her part. The exile has now learned all about her - Traya can teach him no more. The exile must now either choose to embrace or reject that cause, so Traya forces him to kill her to prove that she is serious in her dedication and determination. It was always the exile's choice in the end, and to give him the final push, Traya chooses self-sacrifice by dying at his hands. It's twisted, but it makes sense. And that the plot dares to do it is one of the things that makes TSL so great. You won't be seeing many Star Wars plots that dare take things that far. Concerning the exile's companions, the reason they are missing is that they went and confronted Traya on their own and got captured, at least in the cut content. http://team-gizka.org/2007-02-14.html However, depending on how you had played the game, there could be different confrontations among the companions, even ending in death. For example, Atton could fight Sion, Atton could attack Disciple, or Handmaiden could attack Visas, all with potentially permanent deaths for companions, which mirrors the Hanharr vs. Mira scene - if Mira dies in the fight (and that is indeed possible), then Mira is dead and not mentioned by Traya during her predictions at the end. The Trayus Academy was to have had a prison level that was also cut, and from which I would assume the captured companions supposedly could have been freed, although not to join the Exile, it seems. http://team-gizka.org/2005-04-18.html It's true that HK-47 was supposed to intervene in the Remote vs. G0-T0 scene. However, it was cut, presumably because the HK factory on Taris was also cut, which would have set the scene for the ending - if the Exile is dark sided, then G0-T0 successfully commands HK-47 to destroy the Remote, but if the Exile is light sided, then HK-47 resists G0-T0's commands and kills him instead. It is even more frustrating that this scene is missing, since it was later confirmed as official canon by the New Essential Guide to Droids, which mentions G0-T0's destruction at HK-47's hands on Malachor V. In the light side ending, Malachor V is destroyed because it's an entire planet steeped in the dark side that corrupts all life (as per Kreia's comments to the comatose exile on Dantooine). It is where Revan "fell" to the dark side. Since it corrupts all it touches, it can only be used for evil. Therefore the exile (if lightsided) chooses to destroy it by reactivating the Mass Shadow Generator again, so that its evil and its dark knowledge in the Trayus Academy cannot be used to destroy again. T3 is presumably missing from the endsequences because he is repairing the Ebon Hawk, so that the Exile can escape Malachor's destruction at the end (if lightsided). Mandalore is presumably missing because he did not go to Malachor V with the Exile. After all, he is gathering his clans, not seeking out Sith Lords. Bao-Dur is a special case, however. What was to happen with him is uncertain, but I hear rumors that he was to have been killed by the plot on M4-78. However, since that planet was also cut from the game, Bao-Dur fades into mists not to be heard from again. And if by "Revan's holocron" you mean the broken holocron found in the academy on Korriban, then yes, it does work if you set Revan to DS during the conversation with Atton at the beginning of the game. It only shows a holovid of dark sided Bastila, however, so it's not a major loss. For LS Revan you get to actually see Bastila and Carth meeting and talking after the Exile's talk with Carth on Taris. As for the Tomb on Korriban, it does not "prepare" you in ways of game stats, but because it helps the Exile confront some of his past. Note the two "dream" scenes where the exile is first recruited by Malak on Dantooine and then leads soldiers against the Mandalorians on Dxun. The represent elements of the Exile's troubled past that he must come to terms with to face his real problem, which is his experience at Malachor V at the end of the Mandalorian Wars when he cut his connection to the force - that's the defining moment of the exile's existence and the source of his problem in the game, yet it is absent from the "dreams". Why? Because the exile has been in denial about it and suppressed his choice for a decade and need to confront his other choices of the past first. And note that the "present dream" is about the companions confronting Kreia and the exile choosing between them, which is indeed the situation that is set up after the meeting with the masters on Dantooine. It does hang together plotwise. It's even solid storytelling. It's just such a crying shame that it's all told so badly due to all the cut content.

This makes 4e sound like a cross between D&D and HeroQuest....

True. However, the problem with those observations is that Bioware IS working on a project with Lucasarts. Does anyone think that project is an original IP created by Bioware? Agreed.

I mean, what popular tabletop RPG isn't that true of? Cthulhu RPG for example. In old Vampires combat was (at least it seemed so) never the focus. I don't agree. Both games have rules specifically outside combat, yes, but the combat rules are still fairly extensive with lots of focus on special vampiric combat abilities in Vampire. As for Cthulhu, I've played far, far too much of that to agree. Yes, the majority of the game is investigation, but it's always toward killing/banishing/destroying/exorcising/whatever the great monster/evil god at the end, mostly because going into combat without extensive plans and preparation is more than fatal in Cthulhu. Yes, it has very simple combat rules and simplistic character creation (the pre-d20 version, I mean), but that was mostly because the characters die so fast that creating new ones had to be simple. Boy, I miss playing those games... D&D was originally based on war games played on boards, yes. I mean the creators were called "Tactical Studies Rules"... But the game grew beyond that into something more. The fact that 3e, and possibly 4e as well, adopts a "back to basics" approach is one of the main reasons why I dislike those "editions". You could argue it makes them true to the original games origin, but then D&D is the *original* RPG, too... And I tend to prefer role-playing games over roll-playing games and even hack 'n slash/dungeon crawl/board games. Not that that's a slight against those games - I just don't enjoy them. If I did, I'd probably prefer Hero Quest over Cthulhu or GURPS. Yeah, but so what? I mean, what popular tabletop RPG isn't that true of? Or consider some other spells usefulness in combat... How about 1e's Write spell. It was a spell used by a mage to enter spells in his spellbook if the rules would not normally allow it. How is that a combat spell? You could argue that allows the mage to learn more combat spells, but that's like saying a Fireball is a defensive spell, because it destroys the enemy. Or how about Identify or Enchant An Item in 2e? Yes, you can use Enchant An Item to create magic items, but the spell itself has no combat value, and Identify even less so, since it does not alter the item but only gives the player knowledge - a sword +2 is a sword +2 whether the person wielding it knows it or not, it's just a question of whether the GM or the player gets to do the calculation. Good Lord. I think someone made the distinction , very early, between spells that have direct application in combat and spells that have utility outside of combat that give the player a fighting advantage. I would certainly classify a spell that the mage uses to put spells into his spellbook as the perfect example of the latter. "Good lord", indeed....

Yeah, but so what? I mean, what popular tabletop RPG isn't that true of? Or consider some other spells usefulness in combat... How about 1e's Write spell. It was a spell used by a mage to enter spells in his spellbook if the rules would not normally allow it. How is that a combat spell? You could argue that allows the mage to learn more combat spells, but that's like saying a Fireball is a defensive spell, because it destroys the enemy. Or how about Identify or Enchant An Item in 2e? Yes, you can use Enchant An Item to create magic items, but the spell itself has no combat value, and Identify even less so, since it does not alter the item but only gives the player knowledge - a sword +2 is a sword +2 whether the person wielding it knows it or not, it's just a question of whether the GM or the player gets to do the calculation.

Actually, if understand the terms correctly, Obsidian is actually worse of than the modders, since they have a written contract with LA, meaning that they do only what LA tells them to do. So they can't do a mod even if they want to, even for free. Of course, they could do one on the side pretending to be modders, but if LA found out, it could hurt the relationship and so Obsidian's chance of being allowed to do KotOR3 like they've said several times they wanted to. I don't even think they can give Team Gizka or anyone else advice without risking LA's wrath. Of course, that's just conjecture on my part.

Exactly... sadly. http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=...p;postcount=283

IIRC, all the concept art of the exile was male, so yeah, that might be the reason right there.

As much as I like TSL, I'll pick KotOR as the better game. But only as the better game - TSL had far better plot IMHO. It's unfinished and hence not only unpolished but also told badly in places. I can't blame people for being miffed about the ending of TSL and going "WTF?", because frankly, I did too. I can't blame OE, however, since it was LA's choice to cut the deadline, which hurt the game by letting something things go unfinished (the GOTO vs. Remote scene anyone? Or how about vast majority of the companions just disappearing into thin air on Malachor V?) or explained only to a degree, where the plot would become apparent only after numerous replays or by digging into the dialog.tlk file of the game. TSL is still a great game, but it could have been so much better with just a little more work. It's a crying shame that LA wouldn't permit that.

This is indeed true. The Sith hunted the exile because they were exterminating the jedi, performing their own "jedi purge". When the jedi gathered on Katarr, and Nihilus then obliterated the planet, they all went into hiding. Thus the Sith thought the jedi were all gone, except the one jedi that was exiled from the order a decade before. However, they thought that because Atris staged it that way. Note that HK-47 (or is it the first HK-50 unit - I forget) reveals that the exile is specifically mentioned in the coreward databases. This is never touched upon again specifically in the game, but the cut content includes bits where Atris reveals that she planted that data for the Sith to find, so that the exile would be become a target for them in a plot to make the Sith reveal themselves. Not only that, Atris was to have been on Katarr herself, but instead leaked the location of the meeting in order to draw the Sith out, only Nihilus responded quicker and more decisively than she had expected. And so she set up the exile as the target next, when the other jedi masters went into hiding. Note that Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar have no idea that Atris is still alive in the game and actually think that she, too, was killed on Katarr.