Jediphile

Since other people have voiced their likes and dislikes on the possible KotOR3, I guess I will too... Not sure about planets, but since I prefer the story to build on the what we've already seen, I'd prefer we see some of the worlds beyond the outer rim where Revan and the Exile went to find the "true Sith". Coruscant might be a good place to begin, though, and I really want to see Alderaan at some point. We could also have the main character go to worlds like Yavin IV and Korriban to look for clues to the Sith. Ossus would also be interesting, except it is already more or less destroyed by this point... As for the cast, it depends a lot on what changes are made to the engine itself. I like most of the characters in the games so far, but let's face it - with only three places open in the group, and one of those always taken by the main character, chances are you'll use only a few characters, and those tend to be the same characters every time. In KotOR1, I mostly used the Jedi characters (Bastila, Jolee, Juhani) next to Revan, and only occasionally the rest. HK-47 would make it into the group only for his responses, and I never used T3 at all. Ever! Yes, you need him to enter the Sith base on Taris (since Mission can't open no matter what her Security is), so I bought at the droid shop, walked the short way over the Sith base, had T3 unlock the gate, then removed him from the party before entering the base and never used him again. In KotOR2 I used T3 a lot more because Peragus demanded it (and because I could level him up to his maximum while leaving all the potential Jedi undeveloped), but it still doesn't mean I use all the characters - in KotOR2 I instead never or very rarely used G0-T0... Now, that's just waste of good character potential. I guess the large cast is there so you have something to choose between as a player no matter what sort of characters you like, but to me it looks like wasted character potential since you'll never be using all those characters. Besides, many of them are still forced on you in specific situations, or you have to deal with during cutscenes in the plot. My suggestion would be to either increase the number of available characters in the active group (there really is no logical reason to limit the number anyway) or else simply trim the number of potential characters down. Having so many characters in the group that you just cannot use due to forced game mechanics is rather annoying. That doesn't necessarily mean that the overall number of NPCs has to be smaller, though - you can still have a large cast of characters walking in and out of the group instead of, like now, have them remain permanently once they join. For example, you could have characters like the disciple or the handmaiden early in the game only to later leave the group when other characters join. There could even be hateful relationships between characters, where some characters refuse to stay in the group if others join. At bit like the Mira/Hanharr relationship in KotOR2. As for the plot, the events of the previous games have left the galaxy rather short on jedi for us to play in the next game. It can change, but at least we should begin where the games have left us until now. In all probability, the game will set up situations similar to that in KotOR2, where the alignment and gender of both Revan and the Exile will be decided by the player. If the Exile is set to light side, then the new character could be a student from a Jedi academy built by one of the Jedi characters from KotOR2 (Visas might be the most obvious). If not, then the character might begin as a Sith. In either case, I'd like the game to begin with the new character following a master as an apprentice in a Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan or Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship. Isn't it a bit odd that the KotOR games haven't really explore the master/apprentice relationship yet? It could also be interesting to have the master be Revan in disguise. After all, Revan can be both good and evil and male or female, but the teacher is just mysterious and secretive for a very long time. Or the main character could have a teacher who is killed early in the game and who is then hunted by the enemy while looking for a new master to learn from. Another interesting option might be to have the main character be a powerful force sensitive character (like Anakin) who still hasn't committed to either side of the force (force adept is a legal class in the tabletop d20 RPG), and who is then promptly sought out for apprenticeship by both the Jedi and the Sith. Which way to go is then for the character to decide. The character could being as a 0-level character making the choice to be apprentice during the intro. A character thrown into the middle of things in such a way would be a nice homage to Luke Skywalker. Or the character could be a former Mandalorian Jedi, who was thrown from the Jedi order due to his or her background, or who left in disgust at what the Jedi did to the Mandalorians. That could set up some really interesting situations with both Revan and the Exile (and Mandalore, too, come to think of it...). The plot will be more difficult because it needs to consider all the potential choices made during the previous games, and to be perfectly honest it looks to me like a storyteller's nightmare to reconcile all that has potentially happened into one plot... No idea how they'll do it (well, maybe an idea, but it still looks daunting), but it'll be interesting to see, unless they just ignore all the loose ends. Size is likely to be a problem, but I'd say cut down a bit on the dialogue in some cases. You should be able to talk to lots of people, but especially in KotOR2 I find that there are a large number of people who have little or nothing to say, while there are a few people who go on and on and on. Some of the conversations with Kreia or the HK-50 unit on Peragus are mind-bogglingly long. I want dialogue, but keep it to the point - I'll continue asking questions if I feel like it, so I don't need the game to force it on me. Whatever happens, we need to have a character that is rather easy to identify with, as that was a major problem for me with the Exile in KotOR2. I mean, in the first game you don't know that you're Revan (though there are certainly clues), and once you find out, you've heard so much about Revan that you're somehow ready for it. In KotOR2, however, the Exile is a general of the Mandalorian Wars who did a lot of things he or she is not so happy about and which he or she doesn't like to talk about, and so I don't actually know the character I'm suppossed to play very much. That makes it all but impossible to identify with the central character, and I'm actually still rather uncertain about what the Exile did and didn't do during the Mandalorian Wars. That's not a good basis for a role-playing game. The search for Revan and the Exile should also be important. Personally I'd really like the idea of getting both of the previous PCs in the group as NPCs at very high levels (starting at level 20+) at some point. Of course, they should both have unique abilities. For example, the Exile should definitely have Force Sight and either Force Crush or Force Enlightenment based on whether he or she is set to dark or light side. While there were no unique powers for Revan in KotOR1, he can easily have learned unique powers during his long seclusion and study of the ancient Sith or even simply remembered some of the powers he used to have as the dark lord. They should also both have other unique abilities that define their individually established strengths. For example, the Exile is the perfect general, while Revan is the master strategist and tactician. The influence system was a nice addition in KotOR2, but it really is in bad need of severe revision. It's basically a good idea, but it fails to take into account what sort of influence you've had over the characters. For example, it's fine that the Handmaiden is intended to be basically light side and want you to do benign things, but if you're very dark sided and have influenced the Handmaiden a lot toward the dark side, then she shouldn't continue to react positively only to light side choices. That's inconsistent and needs to revised badly. I mean, of course influence is and should be more relevant to a light side character - friendship and trust are light side concepts after all, while nobody likes being manipulated and treated like dirt, so naturally the dark side options should cost allies - nobody will like you if you tell them they're stupid and worthless except as expendable sacrifices. Then again, KotOR2 didn't do that either, and if that's too problematic, then it's better to remove the influence system entirely. Well, just a few thoughts...

Yuthura Ban <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, actually my light side Revan made her see the error of her ways and leave Korriban in KotOR1, so that would seem to make her just as susceptible to the light/dark choices of Revan as Bastila... Is that speculation or do you know it would have been Yuthura?

Oh, it is very simple....You see, Vash and Bastilla on Korriban were cut due to Lucasfarts rushing the game...Again There is remarkable physical evidence within the game's files to prove that they probably had Bast lined up to either join your party, or become a charecter something like Atris...I imagine there is FAR more to Vash than they could pack into a game that was rushed a year ahead of intened release <_< <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nooooooooo!!!!! They missed out Vash which was a major screw up (they should have gotten rid of one of other masters) but they missed Bastila out as well?!!!!! This is an insult to anyone who likes Bastila! :angry: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, actually Bastila did make a cameo appearance late in my game as a lightside male Exile. I presume Korriban would have been the place for Bastila to appear if you set Revan to dark side at the beginning of the game. If this assumption is correct, does anyone know who would have replaced evil Bastila on Korriban if Revan was set to lightside?

Yes, I realize that Nihilus' inability to draw power from the Exile is due to the Exile's nature. However, that's an explanation for the player having a chance against Nihilus, not for Nihilus being a pushover. As I see it the fight should have left me thinking, "Wow, what a powerhouse! Good thing the plot made Nihilus overlook my secret advantage, or he would have wiped the floor with me" instead of, "Gee, was that all there was to this guy?" Yes, it makes sense plotwise, but it's still disappointing dramatically IMO... And while it technically makes sense that Nihilus shouldn't be able to drain force from the Exile (though actual game mechanics would have been unlikely to take that into account), that still shouldn't have stopped him from sucking the life/force out of my companions (Visas and Mandalore). It could have been both cool and scary to see them both go down and then suddenly face Nihilus alone... Besides, Nihilus should be a force-power-user, not a lightsaber-duelist. He is more of a Sith entity than a human force-user, so it would have seemed more appropriate for him to simply use lots of force-powers during the fight and no lightsaber at all. Well, that was my take at least... Still, I'm sort of hopeful that Nihilus might not be entirely dead... After all, how do you "kill" nothingness? He's just too good and scary a character to throw away that easily, so I'm sort of hopeful he might turn up again in the inevitable KotOR3.

After finishing the game, it seems clear to me that the artifacts you refer to here are left as a clue to foreshadow some things that will happen in the plot when you return to Telos toward the end of the game. Those artifacts might sound mighty enticing, but things are not quite what they seem here, so I doubt it was ever the intention to let the player get to them. After all, Atris rescued them from Dantooine just before Malak's destruction of the Jedi enclave there. A remarkable stroke of good luck, seeing as how they just narrowly avoided destruction, right? Especially when we then learn that the Sith are hunting down Jedi and Atris herself has been fortunate enough to elude being detected or being killed along with the majority of Jedi on Katarr... This is actually one the things that I find still adds up nicely plotwise.

Spoiler warning!! The 51 questions that were posted made me think of something I never quite figured out in the beginning of the game... The Exile is taken aboard the Harbinger for the purpose of being brought to Telos without the Exile's knowledge. Ok. The Harbinger then receives a distress signal from a freighter that it then goes to check out. Fair enough. Now comes my problem - what was that freighter? Was it the Sith warship mentioned or was it the Ebon Hawk? If it was the Ebon Hawk, then it would seem the Sith assassins boarded the ship and killed all but T3 and HK-47, but then where did Kreia come from? Sure, she could have been playing dead, but surely Darth Sion of all people (or Sithspawn...) would have seen right through that deception? He was her apprentice for a long time, after all. However, I seem to recall the captain of the Harbinger mentioning an abandonned Sith warship, which would then be where the Sith game from. If that's the case, then did Ebon Hawk get boarded by the Harbinger before or after the Sith attack? And when was the Exile brought aboard the Ebon Hawk? In any event, we still don't know where Kreia came from or how HK-47 ended up on the Ebon Hawk. It seems clear that T3 was the only droid to follow Revan to the outer regions and then come back on the Ebon Hawk. Where did he pick up HK-47? And where did Kreia come from? An interesting option is tied to how she tells the Exile that Revan returned to her after the events of KotOR1, so maybe Revan actually sent both T3 and Kreia to find the Exile. Sadly, this is never revealed... I still wonder about where Kreia came from, though. Was she on the Ebon Hawk or did she hide on the Sith ship? I don't think she was on the Harbinger. And who were the other dead people on the Ebon Hawk?

I seem to recall hearing that too when playing the game, but I was playing a male Exile, so it couldn't have been the disciple. I think it was one of the masters, but I can't be sure...

Agreed, though I guess I could have lived with his puny fighting abilities if he had at least served a purpose plotwise... I mean, I really expected a major revelation - like he was one of the Exile's Jedi lieutenants from Malachor or such. But instead he just dies, Visas takes his mask, and we never even get to see what's behind the mask

"The Master everybody hates"? Shouldn't that be "The Master who hates everybody"? :D I sort of like Vrook, though only as a the grumpy, bitter old dude who can only criticize how bad everything has gotten and how nobody understand him etc... Sort of reminds me of a Monty Python sketch, where they play these old guys sitting around a table having a contest about who had the worst childhood by making more and more outrageous and ludicrous statements, then finish off by agreeing that they young people of today wouldn't believe them... That's exactly who Vrook is, though it make not make him the most suitable Jedi Master.... Hmm, Vrook falling to the dark side... Almost sad we won't see it.

Maybe I've overlooked something, though I doubt it, but it seems Darth Nihilus is somehow a completely forgettable character in the game... He (or is it a she? It could be...) seems all powerful and menacing in the beginning, but seems to serve no purpose at all beyond setting up a few plot points for Kreia and Visas... And once you do confront him, it's over after a lightsaber battle and a few throwaway comments. I was rather unpleasantly surprised that he didn't seem to serve much of a plotwise purpose at all - he had far more potential... Heck, maybe Nihilus could even have been the evil Revan if he had been tougher... Wouldn't that have been a twist?

Hi all. I'm new to this forum having recently played and finished KotOR 2. I've been following a few topics concerning the ending here, and I tend to agree with those people who are disappointed by the end or lack thereof... There is one point I really like to make to Obsidian that I don't see a lot of people making, however. It's quite simple really... If Obsidian think that our criticism is an indication that we didn't like the game, then they are completely wrong - we certainly did like the game! After all, we finished it, didn't we? Few people spend 50+ hours playing through a game they don't like. But that's just the point - playing for 50+ hours (and I know it was more for me...) and then getting stuck with what seems to be a missing ending is rather disappointing to say the least... To then go to the developers' own forum and finding how much was cut just makes it worse. Incidentally, why was the topic on the cut endings (http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=29764) closed? I've read through and have found people to generally demonstrate remarkable acceptance of the situation, and several asked that the subject be given priority on these boards. I applaued Obsidian for letting it stand on their boards, but closing it could be construed as an attempt to silence criticism... Now, don't get me wrong. I have read some of the responses people at Obsidian have made to people bashing KotOR2, and I'm convinced Obsidian is dedicated to quality and pleasing their consumers. But even so, the trouble is that a game was still realeased that many consumers find to be unfinished, and there seems to be little or no intention on the horizon of rectifying the situation. I actually predict that a gaming company will be sued by consumer groups within the next few years for releasing an unfinished game. I doubt it'll be Obsidian, because KotOR-fans seem to be remarkably loyal to the company in spite of getting an unfinished game. Sure, a lawsuit over a computer game may sound childish, but that's mostly because there's still stigma attached to video-games - if a consumer had bought a car without an engine or other essential component, nobody would question the right to protest. Obviously it is different in the entertainment industry, but a product was still released that many find to be unfinished, and if consumers accept that, then it will only prompt companies to continue to do so, since the consumers apparently accept it - qui tacet consentire videtur...