Jediphile

I can certainly understand your position and sympathize with it. You're quite right to think that this situation is a sad abuse of these boards. However, I have been attacked on a personal level and someone has lied about what I have said on this board, therefore I will defend myself here. If people had lied about things you said, I should think you would also demand justice. I'm not asking you or anyone else to take sides, though. But I will defend myself and expose Metadigital's lies about me, since doing otherwise would clearly serve only to be taken as consent in the minds of him and others. And I will continues to do so until the moderator steps in.

I can tell already that you possess neither the ability nor the intent to do so. Calling me childish and then making a claim of being diplomatic is, yet again, contradictory to the extreme and can only serve to flame further. How you can even state both in the same sentence and expect to not look like a complete idiot is beyond me, and it certainly speaks volumes about your "intent". No, commenting on something does not mean opposing. In this case you embrace that logic only because that is the only way you can defend your flawed arguments and behaviour. But the fact that I chose to respond can in no way be inferred to mean the exact opposite of your position. Basically you're saying that if I'm not with you, then I'm your enemy, but remember... "only a Sith deals in absolutes"! I hope that brings it down to a level you can comprehend. They do indeed. It's just a shame you didn't bother to read them before you decided to attack me for whatever you wanted. I have snipped them for the same reason - you don't read them anyway, so why bother. Basically you're saying that all my comments are meaningless, but since I arguing, you can just assume that I oppose whatever you happen to be thinking. Need I truly explain how idiotic that position is? Well, I'm not going to bother, since I have little faith it will make a difference... I have never once mentioned any of the games that you list here, and all I said was that the industry now has firm standards on the quality of graphics and sounds. That cannot be inferred to suggest that I place the importance of graphics above plot. I might as well argue that you support abortion or software piracy on the basis that you have never said otherwise. Nonsense. Once again you're taking my comment and assuming whatever you like. What I said is that writing games is costly and takes time today. I don't hear anyone arguing against that. I also said that this put limits on how complex games can be. No one has argued against that. Reason? Because those are facts - you cannot argue against that. That doesn't give you the right to just jump to whatever assumptions you like and then attack me with it. Clearly you are - you assume facts not in evidence and then infer whatever you like and then attack me with it. EDIT: Oh, and you began arguing about me personally instead of arguing the topic - that's the definition of trolling. Yet more evidence of trolling - you admit not having read it and yet you immediately call it a diatribe. Yes, I can see how enlightened and unbiased you truly are... A genuine inspiration to us all

LIAR!!! I challenge you to quote me for *EVER* saying that! The fact that you infer it does not make it so, and you are a liar and a troll for stating it as a fact! I was writing a lengthy response, but I see no point in arguing with LIARS!!!!!! Please step in, moderator, or else you'll be letting Metadigital getting away with claiming that I said things I never did. I flatly deny that I ever said that graphics were more important than innovation. I simply said that that's what most people look at. There are only two possibitilies: Either metadigital cannot see that or he will not that see that. But either way his claims make him a liar, and he is not just misrepresenting me or infering things, he is saying I said things that are simply untrue. He didn't even disagree with me when I said that most players look at graphics first. In my book that makes Metadigital both a hypocrit as well as a liar and a troll! Step in, moderator, or the flamefest is certain!!!

Now you're trolling again. You don't like the movie, so I cannot be allowed to unless I value things that are inferior. You're also misrepresenting me by assuming motives not in evidence, since you completely refuse to acknowledge the reasons I gave for like Reloaded, and it speaks volumes that you conveniently "forgot" to include that in what you decided to quote. What I said was (snipped a bit): What is noteworthy here is comment of "you really were wondering what was going on". Reloaded was filled to the edge with strange clues pointing in all different directions, and when Neo disabled the sentinels, it really sparked question of what was going on - how the heck was he able to do that? It suggested that something else was going on a completely new level that we hadn't seen before. Sadly, however, Revolutions decided to ignore most of those implications - note how Neo never explains why he could that, how he got to the train station, or how he got back into the matrix after that. But the clues were all there in Reloaded, suggesting that Zion was just another matrix to entrap the human mind, if you bother to look for it. You may not have noted it, but that's not my fault, and I'm not about to let you flame me just because I did and liked that. Sure the special effects are nice and impressive, but in the end they will always just be icing on the cake, and if you take away the cake itself, what remains will make you ill... My, how you contradict yourself - first you decry all the little fanboys with me for supporting crappy games, and now you moralize against me for being patronizing for saying it. I guess if having a standard is good, then a double standard is twice as good... "

I like this, but then it does read a lot like the plot suggestions I have posted here before, though I was far more verbose. Never quite finished describing my idea, but I doubt anyone's interest, and it's very long anyway... Besides, I'm scarcely the only one to post ideas along those lines. Personally I'd love to get rid the god-awful leveling system, but I doubt it will happen, since it comes from WOTC's d20 system in the current RPG version. There might be legal reasons that demand a Star Wars RPG to use it, much as I hate it. I'd much rather have something like the GURPS system where you don't have experience levels, but simply earn skill points that you then use to boost your skills, stats, etc. Much more realistic, and it also gets rid of the annoying Guardian/Counselor has this or that color lightsaber or this or that force power, but that that one... Oh, how I hate that! Besides, hit points and experience levels just don't make any sense as they are in the d20 system, but I fear we're stuck with them

I have actually played and finished Grim Fandango, and it never struck me as all that interesting. Sure, it was different and, in its own way, rather original, but I don't think the plot was that interesting or compelling. The same could be said for the Monkey Island games, but at least they were a lot more fun. So no, it does not prove your point. If anything it only underscores the notion that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You seem to deny that, however, and suggest that the quality of Grim Fandango is a fact, and the only way people might disagree with that fact is if they haven't played it. This idea contradicts your point that quality sells - if Grim Fandango is so undeniably brilliant, then - by your logic - it should have been both a cash cow and a classic. Okay, so do people remember it or Monkey Island better? And which of them sold more? It speaks volumes that Monkey Island spawned three sequels (and may spawn more - who knows?), while Grim Fandango spawned none and is largely forgotten. In fact, I'm quite certain most people here will think "Grim what?" This is another example of how beauty is in the eye of the beholder, since I quite honestly thought that Matrix Reloaded was by far the best movie in the trilogy. Yes, Revolutions failed to finish the story properly, and since Reloaded builded toward it, that hurt it as well, but on its own Reloaded is brilliant IMO - I like it far better than the original movie, which was fairly simple in ints setup, whereas by the end of Reloaded, you really were wondering what was going on. Damn shame about Revolutions, which really just spend most of its time trying to explain away the clues given to us in Reloaded. But I digress... To be short, yes, plot is essential. I would much rather play a game with simplistic graphics than one with huge plot holes. I've said before on this board that I'd place solid plot over a new graphics engine for KotOR3 any time, and I stand by that. The problem is, however, that most people don't think the way I do. When they look at a computer game, they look at the surface, and that's graphics and sound, and particularly the former. It's difficult to blame them, though, since what others standard do they have by which to judge the game? After all, if the plot sucks, who's going to tell them? The company certainly won't! You could say that reviewers would, but KotOR2 has made that problem worse, because the plot falls apart completely about 70% into the game, and yet it has received rave reviews by most magazines and their ilk. That leaves gamers to judge the book only by its cover (or the computer game by its shiny graphics, as the case may be...). Besides, who can tell if players are going to enjoy the plot? It's not ideal by any means, no, but it is true, sadly... My point is that although we both seem to not have any particular love for the various EA sports games and their ilk, they're still being produced by the dozens, and they wouldn't be if they didn't also sell. I've seen very few games that had genuine interesting plots. Most CRPGs are really nothing more glorified action adventures (like LAs Monkey Island games), dungeon crawling hack and slash games (like the Diablo games) or a cross between them (like the Baldur's Gate or NWN games). They all have in common that the plots are completely linear and have little or no room for variation. Grim Fandango falls into this category too, since there is only one way to solve it. KotOR does as well, of course, though it at least allows a good or evil ending. The plot remains completely linear and unalterable, though, because that's the only way you can script a game with cutscenes and the like. There really have been no true deviation from that formula since the Fallout games (1 and 2, not Tactics). Games like the Gothic series offers more variety than most, but are still fairly linear and for the same reasons. The Summoner was far more linear, but at least it had excellent plot, though it rehashed the same areas far too often. I miss games like the original Fallout games, but you cannot go back to them without giving up on spoken dialogue and cutscenes, and who can imagine plot-based games without those now? Don't get me wrong, I stil play and enjoy Fallout 2 on occasion (one of the best CRPGs ever), but it is and remains undeniably aged now. To go back to that formula is to allow all information to be text only, and I don't think anyone is going to try it. Fallout 3 has been stop and go, but even if it does come out, it will face the same problem. Hope that gives you some insight into where I'm coming from. If goodwill was rewarded in the gaming world, then things would like very different than they do. Just look at the RPG scene (not the computer games, I mean the old style tabletop RPG) - these days everything adheres to the d20 system that WOTC produces. But that certainly doesn't happen because d20 is the best system. In fact, there have been tons of better systems, only they all go under because they don't have licenses to breathe life into the them (like Star Wars or D&D). Some are just so clever that they won't die, and so the big companies sue them to death like TSR used to do to its competitors in the 80s and 90s. In fact, having played loads of RPG systems, I'd say that d20 is about one of the worst that has been published in the last decade, yet it still survives on the basis of licenses like Star Wars. Most of the better systems go under, though GURPS has managed to stay afloat. That didn't happen because it was best, though, but because it managed to build a loyal fanbase. Now, we could conclude from all this that most gamers are stupid since they don't seem to support good games, but it's probably closer to the truth to say that not everybody shares the priority of content and execution over polish and slickness. Long and deep CRPGs are my cup of tea, but I must accept that most people would much rather play Gran Turismo 53, Quake 21, EA Sports Synchronized Swimming 2113 or Worms 789 than KotOR3 or Fallout 4. I'm in the minority, and I must accept that - anything else is unrealistic. Most people think of computer games as quick and forgettable entertainment, not as compelling and deep stories that requires hours upon hours of dedicated playing time to achieve results. Since they are in the majority, the market will accomodate them first. There are enough of us left to keep the deep CRPGs alive, but we must live with what we get - beggers can't be choosers. If KotOR2 taught us anything, then that was it - the game was unfinished, but we still played it because we had little other choice... You are an apologist for the poor performance of the games industry. A. You are an apologist because you are one who "argues in defense or justification of" the poor quality the games industry. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There is a difference between being an apologist for the state of things and acknowledging the state of things. The market will not and cannot support huge CRPGs these days because they're too expensive to produce compared to what returns can be expected from the limited fanbase. That's not an apology, just a sad fact. And that's why games like Far Cry, Half-Life 2, Doom 3 and the EA sports games you mention don't sell... [insert sarcasm here...] But yes, excellent graphics and good plot might sell, but both costs. You cannot have good graphics without good programmers, and you cannot have good plots without good game designers/stortellers. Both cost money to hire, so which will you hire given that gamers tend to judge games based on the graphics (that's the judge-the-book-by-the-cover thing I mentioned above...) ? I may not like that, but that doesn't make it any less true. You, however, apparently refuse to accept this and instead lays the blame for it at my feet because I try to offer a realistic appraisal of the gaming industry today. If you don't like the state of things, then go and hide from reality if you like, but don't kill me just because you don't like hearing my estimate of the situation. Also, don't make grand statements that are clearly flawed, if you're unwilling to have someone tell you exactly that flaw lies. If I shut up that will just prompt someone else to pierce your flawed impression of things. Someone always does. And pointing fingers at someone just because you don't like the message is flaming because it becomes personal. And since you can expect only a response based on anger in return, it is also trolling. Lucasarts has been around since, what, the mid 80s, while companies like Black Isle or Interplay are no more... As for games, the X-Wing series was brilliant in both plot and execution, but sadly they are gone now... For Star Trek, the Bridge Commander game was brilliant, easily the best Trek game ever (and there were some awful stinkers in there) with excellent plot, yet it was killed shortly after being released, whereas real-time strategy games made ad nauseam still sell through the roof. Sorry, but that argument just doesn't hold water either way. I believe I have already answered that question many times over. If you're still wondering, then you clearly don't read my answers very carefully.

They most certainly weren't all wiped out. True, Naga Sadow's army was annihilated, but his move against the Republic was not supported by all the old Sith, and they were even on the brink of civil war among the Sith when Ludo Kressh opposed his invasion of the Republic. The Republic fleet had followed him back, however, and used the opportunity to destroy the Sith while their fleets fought each other. Empress Teta ordered the Republic fleet back once the Sith fleet was defeated rather than lose more ships, so clearly the Sith worlds themselves were unharmed even if the might of the Sith Empire fell with its fleets. Naga Sadow survived by staging his own apparent death and then fleeing Republic space, where he hid in his temple on Yavin IV. The fleet of Empress Teta also went home, but we know nothing of the fate of Ludo Kressh and the other Sith that were in that final battle. If the survivors of the Sith Empire have been licking their wounds for a thousand years while building their fleets and watching and undermining the Republic by staging the Mandalorian Wars and then the Jedi Civil War, then they do indeed pose a severe threat. And as we know from Palpatine, the Sith can be patient...

Only Korribon? Odd, then, that I recall worlds like Ch'hodos, Khar Delba (and its moon Khar Shian) and Ziost... And that's just from one source, where they were barely mentioned, so surely there are many more. Quite right, but we've already seen all that, and it seems Naga Sadow is somehow thrown into at least every other Star Wars game these days. I'm sick of hearing about him every two seconds. It was much more interesting to see KotOR2 make references to Freedon Nadd and go to his tomb on Dxun. I know that my own proposed plot for KotOR3 also has references to Naga Sadow, but I really don't won't another plot about his base on Yavin IV - I'd much rather have them leave it alone, since doing otherwise interferes with Exar Kun's entrapment there. Well, he didn't try to take over the galaxy, he just didn't embrace the jedi code... I don't think they'd cast him in with the Sith, but they would surely be wary of him.

I know what you mean, but don't forget a couple of things: - Consumers (that's you and me) expect much more from games now, and we've usually seen it all before - the days when we see something truly original in games are over because it's all been done. - All narrative is also spoken narrative - whatever is written must also be spoken, which requires every single word to be done by voice actors, and that's not exactly cheap. - Computer games are an industry. Gone are the golden age of gaming, when each and every game was the love child of a specific programmer - now there are definite demands on what graphics, sounds, etc. that a game MUST have to be accepted. A game MAY NOT sell badly these days, since they demand too much attention - companies go backrupt, people lose their jobs and mouths aren't being fed when games don't sell now. Games really are that expensive to make now - what one man could do in the the gold age of the 80s now requires a team of 25+ people working full time for a year or more. That's a huge investment! - This also means that the story must fit with the work schedule. I'd like to see a KotOR3 with diverse light and dark side paths throughout, but it's not going to happen - it would be far to costly to produce, since it would mean that the company has to basically write two games and have most people play only one. Therefore it will be "one size fits all". Not because the company doesn't want to do it, but because it is only thing that is possible.

Oh, come on. The "true" Sith is just a convenient term for the descendents of the Sith Empire that attacked the Republic under the command of Naga Sadow a little over 1000 years before the time of Ulic, Exar Kun and Revan. The whole thing is described in the "Golden Age of the Sith Empire" and "Fall of the Sith Empire" comic book series, if anyone is interested. We haven't heard anything about those Sith since Naga Sadow's invasion failed, but we know they're still out there, so they're a good and untapped resource for enemies in the KotOR games. They were also rather arrogant and racist about their racial purity, which is probably what "true" Sith is supposed to me - to those Sith both Malak, Sion, Kreia and DS Revan (and DS Exile for that matter) would all be "usurper" or "pretender" Sith, since they're not what they consider to be pure Sith blood. There is even some truth to that, since the term Sith comes from a humanoid race that the dark jedi expelled from the Republic enslaved and then interbreeded with. Still, by the time of KotOR, all fallen jedi are generally known as "Sith" no matter what their background - the term 'dark Jedi' doesn't seem to be used much anymore. Hmm, makes me wonder if the Jedi council (Vandar, Vrook, etc.) would consider Jolee to be a 'dark jedi' since he has clearly turned from what Palpatine would call the 'dogmatic, narrow view of the jedi'...

KOTOR isn't about Revan. It's about the Jedi Knights of the Old Republic and their struggle against the Sith. If it was about Revan, then KOTOR 2 would have had him as the PC, but it didn't. Not to mention the majority of the story had nothing to do with Revan. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No just everything behind KOTOR 2's story is about Revan. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not really. Kreia's motivations weren't about Revan. The Exile's motivation for seeking the Jedi Masters weren't about Revan. The political crisis on Onderon wasn't about Revan. The main focus of the story was how the Mandalorian and the Jedi Civil war affected various people. Revan was involved in that, but so were a bunch of people. You could argue just as much that the story was then about Malak, since he's the one that destroyed Telos and Dantoine, making those worlds unstable. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually it goes much deeper than that. KotOR2 is about how the division among the Jedi during the Mandalorian Wars has brought them to the inescapable situation that we explore in the game. It goes a long way to underscore the points the masters have made along (and which Bastila mirrored in the first game) that fighting the Mandalorians to save the galaxy carried a much greater cost with it because of what it did to those jedi who fought in that war. Slowly the deceptions and motivations of both Revan and the true Sith are unveiled to the point where the soldiers of that war became nothing more than pawns in some great intergalactic game of chess. Revan made the same choice as Ulic (and Luke). Whether he will succeed or fail still remains to be seen, though he has clearly stumbled a bit on the way. It is a bitter irony that Malak's deceit may actually end up saving the galaxy because it has reminded Revan of who the real enemy is. So though KotOR2 was carefully constructed to postpone the trouble of what Revan did in the last game and manipulated the story to a point, where your choice between dark side and the light becomes void for purposes of how the plot unfolds, I do admire how the whole tale has been spun - KotOR2 had to pick up on a tale that was already finished with very different endings and yet had to work for both and set up the circumstances for a third game. Plotwise this was done masterfully, though the execution and descriptiveness ended up as rather disappointing, since so much was cut from the game. So no, the game is not about Revan per se. It's about what Star Wars is always about in the end - the struggle between the jedi and the sith (or good against evil, if you prefer...). Revan is a central character to that story, though, just as Luke was in the movies. So I would agree that we cannot have a KotOR3 without seeing Revan return. I don't feel it necessary to play him right from the beginning, though. We left Revan as powerful in KotOR1, and all through KotOR2 we heard about how powerful he was. Revan needs to be powerful with all capital letters when we meet him again, which leave little progress in the game. I'd much rather play a new character whose main goal is to actually find Revan, since only he can end the threat posed by the true Sith. Revan should become an optional main character when you meet him, and he should be the most powerful character you can play. He should also be dark sided and lethal to the player, however... Revan went to the unknown regions to confront the true Sith, but he knew he would have to embrace the dark side to do so, and so he left his friends behind to protect them. As Kreia would say, he did not so much fall to the dark side as he sacrificed himself to it in order to save the Republic. No, hints about Revan's fate are all over the place from the very beginning. We knew that he flew the Ebon Hawk, so where is he? We soon learn that Carth is interested in the ship (if light side), which is an obvious reference to Revan using the ship. Anyone who played KotOR1 will pick up on that. Same goes for T3's secrets and the Bastila hologram. Getting hints to Revan's fate is as much a reward in the game as gaining experience levels are, and it's right there throughout the game. It wasn't just thrown in there at the end. Except there is an important difference - Vader is dead and gone in post-RotJ EU. He may be mentioned, but he clearly belongs to the past. The same is not the case for Revan in KotOR2 - he is still out there waiting for the time when the true Sith will strike, waiting to either save the galaxy or conquer it... It's always there in KotOR2 that Revan is not the past - he is quite clearly in the future, for better or ill...

This I doubt. Episode IV takes place 32 years after Episode I (that's official and indisputable chronology). So that cannot be true, unless you claim Obi-Wan was 38 in Episode I. I might accept that for Episode II, but not for Episode I. Still, I don't blame you for thinking Obi-Wan is that old - it was really Lucas who dropped the ball here - either Obi-Wan should have been older in Episode I or it should have taken place much earlier. Obi-Wan looks pretty young in Episode I - I'd say he's definitely no older than in his 20s, which would mean he could be no older than his early 60s in Episode IV. He seemed a tad older than that when Guiness played him...

I like the idea of Pazaak, but not as part of a quest or the plot itself. Pazaak should always be completely optional with no plot relevance IMO, so that that you don't have to reload to the n'th degree just to beat some lousy NPC who keeps getting lucky or cheats (I don't care what anybody says - if the other guy keeps beating me three rounds running after losing the firrst two and I play a good hand, then he must be cheating - the chances of anything else are astronomical, yet it happens frequently in both KotOR games - nobody contiously just "happens" to conveniently draw the *exact* card he needs when he is in trouble, nobody - period!) I like Pazaak as pastime, though, so I'll sometimes play "senate rules" with Atton in KotOR2, where the game is a little better, because it doesn't force you to always go first and so constantly force the risks on the player (as in KotOR1).

Random loot, yes, but as random as in KotOR2. A specific enemy should always carry the same stuff, particularly for bosses you fight during the game. I also hate that enemies use stuff against you, but you can't pick it up after they're dead - if they used it against you, then surely they have it?!?! As they say, all good role-playing is based on the moral practice of grave-robbery I want the random loot to make sense, though. What sense is there in finding Bindo's Robe of Impervious or whatever in Visquis' lair on Nar Shaddaa? I won't accuse KotOR2 of being as silly as swarms of locusts dropping massive plate armors in Diablo 2, but still... And the random factor should accumulate - if you could have found something rare in one area and didn't, then the chance of finding something rare should increase for the next time you might.

Is that your opinion or is that EU continuity? If it is continuity, then I ask for a citation. Which comic? What number? etc. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, Freedon Nadd was his apprentice, and we know he betrayed his master to become the new dark lord... Even if you don't take that as an indication of Sadow's death, then the Tales of the Jedi comic books leaves little doubt about it - check the "Dark Lords of the Sith" series, particularly issue 4. Even if that didn't confirm Sadow's death, Naga Sadow tried to invade the Republic during the Hyperspace War, which lies more than 1000 years before the KotOR games... Of course, discovering his fate is even easier by simply checking Wikipedia Still, Sadow could appear as a force ghost, I guess... EDIT: Oh, and we visited his tomb in KotOR1...

Depending on the time period, I'd probably choose Alderaan, since it sounds like such a tranquil place, where nothing bad ever happens... If I hear of a young female senator suspected of being rebellious and repeatedly in harsh dialogue with the proper authorities of the galaxy, then I'll make sure to relocate immediately rather than... sharing the fate of presumed insurgents...

I've been describing my own idea for a KotOR3 plot in this topic before, and I've finally written more. Last time I described how the group found the Exile and left the known galaxy for the unknown regions in part 3, so here is... Part 4 After finding the Exile, the search for Revan should take us to several Sith worlds. I do think Korriban still has something to offer, but we've seen it twice in two games now, and in KotOR2 it was pretty disappointing IMHO, so maybe not. The Exile tries to remember Revan's last location, but his/her memory is still fragmented while recovering from being Darth Nihilus, and so the knowledge that he/her can provide is limited for now. All the information currently available are the coordinates from which the Exile's Sith fleet came. Since it will be an infiltration of the Sith if you're light side and a deception if you're dark side, it will not be prudent to simply get the coordinates for the Sith empire from the Exile and then plot them into the Ebon Hawk computer and be on your merry way, since you'd be shot down the second you arrive. Instead you''l have to fly Nihilus/Exile's command ship back (perhaps carrying the Ebon Hawk) claiming it was the only survivor of a confrontation with the Republic fleet (which is even true, after a fashion...). So, the Sith command ship returns to the system in the Sith empire where it came from. This should be either Ch'hodos or Khar Delba (these are planets mentioned in the "Golden Age of the Sith" and "Fall of the Sith Empire" comic books, though we've never really seen them). Khar Delba might be the best choice for reasons that will soon be clear. Anyway, the "return" to the Sith empire doesn't exactly meet with a warm welcome - the civil war between the true Sith and Revan's followers has spread, and the Exile's command ship jumps straight into the middle of a huge battle (a bit like the arrival at Onderon in KotOR2). Since the command ship is already damaged, it is shot down, and the group only narrowly escape in a ship (Ebon Hawk?), but eventually crash on the planet itself. Here comes a chance to see what a Sith world is like as the group looks for the gear to repair their ship and find out what has become of Revan. It should be a world of terrible oppression, but where you don't feel inclined to help the weakest, since they really aren't better people than the masters in charge - everybody just wants to grow powerful and replace whatever masters they have, so it would be a world, where everybody is looking out for himself, and where the group will be in constant danger of discovery, if they every "commit" a selfless act. The consequences of discovery might be minimal in some cases, though, since anyone finding out will try to kill or capture the infiltrators in order to gain favor with their Sith masters, and so nobody will sound the general alarm on the jedi, since that would only let cause their masters to claim discovery of the jedi themselves (the concepts of trust or cooperation are not traits of the dark side, which should become obvious here...). Eventually the Exile will remember that Revan was interested in the Sith teachings of Naga Sadow and went to explore a hidden outpost on the moon of Khar Shian that Naga Sadow once built there. Khar Shian is a moon orbiting the world of Khar Delba (which is why I said that might be the best choice for the first Sith world). The group will have the repair their ship and then secretly make their way to that moon. On Khar Shian they will find the ruins of the secret base that Naga Sadow once built there. It is not completely empty, however, as Revan has filled the place with several guards to protect Sadow's ancient Sith secrets from falling into the hands of his enemies (which includes the Exile - nobody is as dangerous to a Sith lord as his apprentice, a lesson that Revan knows quite well...). The group must fight the guards as they enter the deeper parts of the base. As they do, they will be able to access information about Revan's actions in the Sith empire and learn much about Naga Sadow's plots and powers. Eventually they also learn that Revan has completed his studies of the dark side and then used them to form a Sith resistance group to overthrow the current dark lord, Taras Hassek. He has worked at this for years and there are detailed records and holovids about the skirmishes and battles that Revan has caused as he fought to bring down the Sith rulers and build his own army, so that he could take their place. However, the records suddenly end about a month before the group arrived with comment about how Revan was about to stage a major assault on the true Sith on Ziost. In order to achieve this goal, Revan made an alliance with Saken Zlok, a lesser Sith lord hoping to gain favor with Revan and become his new apprentice betraying Taras Hassek. The group then use a Sith transport to secretly follow him there with the ID codes taken from the computer system on Khar Shian. Ziost will be a challenge indeed. As the group nears the planet, it would be cool to have cutscenes of Revan fighting or sneaking his way to the showdown with Taras Hassek, though it should be uncertain when exactly those events took place. In truth, Revan eventually met with Saken Zlok, but unfortunately for Revan, he mistook Saken Zlok's motives. Saken Zlok had an opportunity here, but decided that he would never be powerful enough to challenge Revan for the title of dark lord himself, so it would be easier to gain favor with Taras and then grow in power until he could replace him. As powerful as Revan is, he faced several Sith Lords standing with Taras and only then realized that Saken Zlok had betrayed him, and only agreed to lead Revan into a trap in order to gain favor with Taras Hassek. Therefore Revan's forces were decimated, and he was eventually alone in the fight, while Taras had several Sith lords, including his apprentice, Del Gor-Ulm, and the treacherous Saken Zlok (whom I suppose might be the Darth Traya of KotOR3...). Together they captured Revan. They don't kill him, however, because Taras has become aware that Revan's old friends are looking for him, and he wants to use Revan to lure them out... and destroy them! The group doesn't know all this yet, but they now have to find and free Revan while staying undiscovered (or so they think). Meanwhile, however, Taras Hassek sets his final plan to move on the Republic into motion. Revan's resistance had caused trouble for him and halted his plans for galactic domination and conquest of the Republic for years, but with Revan captured and his "rebellion" destroyed, the time to strike at the Republic has come, so he launches his entire Sith fleet, personally leading a full assault directly on Coruscant in order to crush the few remaining jedi there (that would be the Exile's old companions, such as Visas, Handmaiden, Atton, etc.) and kill or capture and then convert the jedi children. Of course, the group doesn't know any of this yet, but they will soon find out and realize that the departing forces moving on the Republic is their chance to go to Ziost and find Revan while the planetary security will be somewhat low. Of course, this is also part of Taras Hassek's plan to draw them out, but they still don't konw that. So it will still be a mission of stealth, as the group would quickly be overrun, if the alarm is sounded. Sneaking in, they must discover what happened to Revan and then free him from captivity. However, their presence will be noticed by Saken Zlok, whom Taras Hassek has left behind to deal with Revan's friends. Rather than send forces to destroy them, he follows the plan to let Revan deal with the matter - he puts Revan in secure area, give him his lightsaber, then tells Revan that his old friends have come to either to kill him or to redeem him for the good of the Republic, possibly with an active holovid showing the progress of the group. Naturally evil Revan won't like either option... Saken Zlok then allows the group to find Revan, so where the group expects to find a captive Revan they can reason with and then set free, they instead face an angry and armed Revan, who thinks the jedi have come to kill him. This will be nasty fight, since Revan is a powerful Sith with many secret powers, but since he is outnumbered, the group should eventually be able to defeat him. Now, the main character makes his deciding light side vs. dark side choice when meeting Revan - if you're light side, then you try to bring Revan (and Bastila) back to the light so you can prevail together against the true Sith. If you're dark side, however, you want to learn from Revan and then kill him/her. I mean, if you decide to be dark side, then you can't let Revan stay around - Revan is more powerful than you are, and you want to end up being the dark lord yourself, so you can't have him/her around to threaten your power. Of course, if you kill Revan, then you also have to kill Bastila and the Exile eventually. Let the choice mean something - given that people have played these people in the past, it would make a good statement as to just what it means to side with the Sith. No generic "I'll kill this nameless Sith lord curently in power, whom I don't care about at all"-nonsense. Being Sith is all about power and betrayal against your master, and the point will be more powerful if the masters you betray are characters you have an attachment to, such as Revan, Bastila, and the Exile - if you want to see this characters live, then you need to choose the light side ending. This means that if you choose the dark side, then you need to arrange the deaths of both Revan, the Exile, and Bastila before you can continue the game. Also, for the dark side, I'd really like the main character to play on romantic notions. If the main character is male, then he should try to seduce Bastila and her join him when he turns on Revan - there is no true love among the Sith, and evil Bastila should know that. It would also be cool to imply that there was something going on between Bastila and Carth while Revan was fighting the true Sith in the unknown regions... If the main character is female and Revan is male, however, then you should naturally try to seduce Revan himself and betray Bastila's love for him - you've now found Revan, which is all Bastila was good for, so no she no longer serves a purpose and needs to be cast aside - you want to be Revan's new apprentice... and lover. After all, it worked for pathetic little Bastila, so why shouldn't it work for you? To achieve that goal, you tell Revan that Bastila didn't really love him as much as his power, since why else has she taken so long to find him? It was only after you showed up that they found Revan, and Bastila actually tried to hold you back. Of course, all this needs to be played down a bit in a Star Wars game, but I dare say you can do that and still make the dark side mean something between the lines. And it'll let people see what the Sith are without going to far. Since jedi are not allowed to love, this leaves the notion that they sith do, but I don't think so. After all, love presupposes trust, and that is not a Sith trait. Sith may lust, but they can know no love in the real sense of the word, since they would never trust anyone else enough for that. Those who do probably don't live long... If Bastila, Revan, and the main character are all female, though, I'm not quite so sure... The main character could claim Bastila lusts for Carth, but on the dark side Carth could be dead, so the option is not so good. A love triangle between three woman is not impossible, but I don't much like the idea of insinuating that only in a dark side situation just because it's convenient. It would support the idea that such a situation is immoral by definition, and we really don't want the game to be that judgmental. In fact, we don't want Star Wars to go anywhere near that situation even at extreme blaster range. For the light side option, you want Revan to turn back to the light side. You have several ways to achieve that. One is Bastila's bond with Revan, another is the Exile's ability to suppress the force, and the third is the main character's empathic ability to sense the motivations of others. You'll need to play all of these three (Bastila, Exile, and main character) right while fighting off Revan at the same time to turn him back to the light side. It will also be necessary to remind him that he erred by facing this threat alone - while it might be understandable for him not to want his friends threatened by this danger, the way of the jedi is not a solitary one, and that jedi only triumph when they stand together. Natually Revan's love for Bastila or Carth should also be relevant, especially if Revan is male. If Revan ended up as a dark sided male in KotOR1, it should be noted that he and Bastila did not gain love by their choice. Indeed, they sacrificed it for power, and have find that it did not fill the void that their love left behind. This should help both evil Revan and evil Bastila to turn away from the dark side. Of course, Saken Zlok will not be impressed either way and immediately send Sith forces to destroy the group. Fighting off continuing patrols (a bit like on the Starforge in KotOR1), the group must now flee Ziost and go to Coruscant to stop the assault of the true Sith that Taras Hassek and Del Gor-Ulm is leading against the jedi and the Republic there. Along the way you may choose to hunt and kill Saken Zlok, either out of revenge over his treachery or to prevent him from setting himself up as the new dark lord once you go off to fight Taras Hassek and his assault on the Republic. The fight against Saken Zlok should be a twisted one - he is not very powerful, but he is deceptive and cautious, so he has filled his place with all sorts of traps and security devices and so on. The escape from Ziost (and hunt for Saken Zlok) will be the only part of the game where you can play a group with both Revan, the Exile and the new main character. Next: Part 5 - Endgame

I don't quite agree with you. The term "Knights of the Old Republic" grew out of the Tales of the Jedi comic books. In fact, the trade paperback collecting the five original issues (two issues of "Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beastriders of Onderon" and three issues of "The Saga of Nomi Sunrider") was titled "Knights of the Old Republic". So I dare say the expression refers rather specifically to some time close to that period of Star Wars history. Still, that doesn't mean that you can't do KotOR without Revan, of course - he was nowhere in any of the comic books, after all. That's not the problem. No, the problem is that we have a woefully unfinished plot for both Revan and the Exile. KotOR2 had an open ending. To do a new KotOR that did not follow up on that would be like doing "Empire Strikes Back" without a "Return of the Jedi" to follow it... or indeed to do "Attack of the Clones" without "Revenge of the Sith" later on. We have an open-ended story, and it needs to find a conclusion. I'd be all for a totally new story some thirty or whatever years after the events of the current games in a KotOR4, but we need to see conclusion and resolution to the plots that are currently open before we can move on.

The origin of this topic seems be founded on the idea that a Revan and Exile game would have them both be undeniably light sided in a possible KotOR3. I think that's quite wrong. Indeed, the plot of KotOR2 seems to have been carefully crafted to end up with a situation, where you will fight the true Sith in a third game whether you chose the light or dark side of the force in either game. Take a look at the endings of KotOR1 - if you're light side, then you kill Malak, destroy the Starforge, and save the Republic. All around do-gooder and galactic savior. Major happy endings. As dark side, however, you still kill Malak, but you take control of the Starforge, destroy the Republic fleet, attain the position of dark lord to rule all Sith, then build a massive fleet of warships so that you can undoubtedly conquer the Republic with little or no resistance in short order. Clearly, these are two very different endings. So when you're going to do a sequel, then you have to reconcile those endings in some way unless you're going to write two separate games. You're not going to do that, since it's by no means cost-effective, so reconciliation is a must. So you do you do that? Well, you get the troublesome protagonist of the previous game out of the story, then begin finding excuses..., ahem, EXPLANATIONS for why the galaxy has reached the state you find it in at the begining of the second game. To get Revan out the way, you create a greater enemy than Malak ever was. That way Revan will go and fight that enemy whether he was good or evil - if he was good, then he'll go alone in order to not put his friends in danger and to save them and the Republic, and if he was evil, then he'll go alone because he trusts nobody and can't have this greater enemy threaten his emerging empire. Now, this still doesn't explain the state of how the rest of the galaxy. So you advance time five years, then quickly tell that many, many jedi were killed during the war ("Jedi Civil War") that raged in the previous game (even if you never actually saw that). If Revan saved many jedi, then you stage an event that kills them off (hence Master Vandar et al suddenly perish on Katarr in a LS-Revan game). Now you can begin a new game with a clean slate and new character and only have Revan and his friends do something at the outskirts of your plot. Finding out what happened to them will be major mysterous that the player needs to solve during the game. But since Revan was player-created, you never really allow him (or her) into the game. Of course, you won't want to script an ending for this new game that is as clear-cut good or evil as previously (that's what caused all the problems in the first place). So what do you do? Well, you make discovery of this "greater enemy" that Revan went to fight a major revelation in the game, and then you have the game end with the new protagonist going off alone to fight this enemy as well. Since Revan went to fight this enemy whether he was good or evil, the same is just as relevant for the new protagonist, and you won't have to worry about this enemy until you get to the third game. Don't get me wrong, I thought KotOR2's plot was well crafted (except for the woefully missing and oft-mentioned endings) and I did enjoy playing it. But as I've said before that doesn't mean that I'm blind to how the whole plot was carefully engineered to dark/light side choice of either game irrelevant - you'll end up having to fight the true Sith in the third game no matter which side you choose and for the same reasons as Revan - either to save the Republic if light sided or to stop a threat to your own empire if you're dark sided. So having Revan and the Exile going off to fight the true Sith in no way means that they're both goody-little-two-shoes. Now, I don't want any of them as the main character in the third game, but I do want them both in the game, because we do need to see how their stories play out. I don't think that will be a problem, though. Revan and the Exile and their experiences should be the 'hidden past' of KotOR3. That way we won't have to have yet another amnesic jedi...

Yes, I'd like Nihilus back as well. In fact, I'd like to have Exile find Revan only to discover that he has turned back to the dark side. Revan then forces the Exile to turn dark side as well, and the Exile becomes the new Darth Nihilus. After all, he did end up with Nihilus' mask in KotOR2, didn't he? Also, did you note how the Exile never expressed any interest in actually seeing the face of Nihilus? Isn't that rather odd when we know they were both jedi veterans from Malachor V? On top of that, they both have this ability to suppress the force... I think the Exile was subconsciously very much aware of just who Nihilus was... In fact, I think it was the Exile's dead master or so, revived on Malachor V when the Exile suppressed the will of the force and created the force wound. So in a sense, Nihilus is a part of the Exile that he sought to suppress and deny - he exists because the Exile is in denial about what the Mandalorian Wars did to him. Revan makes him see that and so heals the wound when the Exile accepts what happens... But it also leaves the Exile to fall to the dark side and become the new Darth Nihilus. It actually adds up, and you could even argue that KotOR2 suggests the possibility by having Visas bring Nihilus' mask to the Exile without the Exile ever seeing Nihilus' face.

I think you're confusing the Sith Lords of KotOR2 with the true Sith - the assassins with stealth generators we see in KotOR2 are not the agents of the true Sith, but the agents of Sion and Nihilus, who do not belong to the true Sith's ranks, as they're both fallen jedi. The true Sith would consider them enemies as much as the Republic itself. So far we haven't seen the true Sith do anything at all, and we only know about them because Revan realized the potential danger they represented and then went to confront that danger rather than letting them build their forces until they were unstoppable. As much as I actually like Naga Sadow, please no - we've had this guy die several times over and still come back wreak havoc. Enough already! Besides, Naga Sadow was basically exiled from the Sith empire and stranded on Yavin IV more than a thousand years before KotOR1. I'd much rather have some new true Sith dark lord who has explored all of Naga Sadow's secrets. In fact, my own suggestion for a plot has Revan turned to the dark side and exploring Sadow's secret base on Khar Shian just to be able to wrestle the title of dark lord away from the true Sith ruler. I agree. At least I do after a fashion. I do see Revan and the Exile as playable PCs in KotOR3, but not until quite far into the game. And they would (and should) be essential and playable characters in the endgame.

Except bad hygiene. " <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Or bad sale... :D

On stats: I usually try to spread out my stats a lot to being with. I know most people don't, but I don't feel there is one stat you can "cannibalize" for the sake of the others in the KotOR games - they're all fairly important. So since placing stats above 14 costs two "increase points" instead of one, I never put any of my begining stats above 14. Even then you still can't put them all at 14, so it's still a choice. I generally find that I want high Intelligence for skills and conversation options, Wisdom for conversation options and force points, and Charisma for force powers and reaction modifiers (Charisma is a highly underrated stat). I put them all at 14 to begin with in both KotOR games (beginning as Scout in KotOR1 and as Jedi Sentinel in KotOR2). I want a bonus to hit points from my Constitution, so I usually put that at 12 so I at least get a +1 bonus. That leaves one stat at 14 and one at 10. In KotOR1 I tend to choose Dexterity over Strength and vice versa in KotOR2. This is because in KotOR1, you basically have automatic Weapon Finesse with your lightsaber, but not in KotOR2. After that I tend to raise Intelligence to 16 as I progress in KotOR2, then I begin building Constitution (since you need Con 18 for the best implants. Once you have that, you've progressed so far in the game, that the further choices don't matter so much). In KotOR1 I tend to build mainly Dexterity and two increases of Wisdom instead. In KotOR1 this approach allowed me to finish all quests where skills were relevant (repairing HK-47 to full strength, interrogating the Mandalorian prisoner on Korriban...). In KotOR2 skills are far more important, and so focusing on Intelligence was even more rewarding. I always favor Flurry over Critical Strike and Power Attack, since Critical Strike doesn't work the way it does in the tabletop RPG and Power Attack seems most efficient only against those enemies that you can defeat most easily anyway (it has a noticeable to-hit penalty in favor of increased damage, but that damage you'll want against the toughest opponents, and with the attack penalty, you're not going to hit them in the first place...). Still, your mileage may vary, and many people seem to favor Critical Strike, so maybe I'm wrong. I can only say that I always choose Flurry and never regret it.