Jediphile

As others have said, it depends entirely on the situation. I always ask the player first whether he (or she) is likely to share information with the rest of the group, and what sort of information he would like to keep to himself. That leaves the decision a bit with the player. But rather than throwing everybody else out of the room, I usually choose to leave the room with the player myself. After all, if there are five or six people in the room, it makes more sense for two people to leave rather than three or four, especially since the information I will be giving to the player is frequently very short and simple. Of course, that can leave me away from my DM info or my dice, but since I improvize a lot as DM. That's not to say that I don't prepare for games, but I find I very rarely spend time doing stats for monsters/enemies and so, because the plot itself and the players' decisions always take priority. Then again, that might just be my experience as a GM (well over a decade) and the fact that my group is tends to do rather deep role-playing speaking... I don't have good experience with multiple GMs, though. Again, that could just be my experience revealing me as set in my ways as GM, but as the storyteller I like to have complete control over where my plot is going. If I were to share that with anyone, I'd worry that I'd be unable to let player choices influence the game as directly as I prefer it to. For example, I like to be able to stop a battle if the players suddenly decide to call for a parlay or similar. As GM I'm both a storyteller and a referee, and I need to be able to respond quickly to player choices. And I will not let the rules dictate to me where my plot is going!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> And what is the Exar Kun war ? Is that other name for the Mandalorian wars? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No its a war before the Mandalorian War, Exar Kun was a powerful Dark Jedi, who waged war on the republic and the Council, IIRC he made his temple on Yavin 4, and a Jedi fleet had to bombard him from orbit or something to take him out. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's actually called "The Sith War" because the Sith fought internally for power, primarily Exar Kun and Ulic-Qel Droma, both of which are heavily referenced in the KotOR games (this is all from the Tales of the Jedi comic books). If you visit Yavin station in KotOR1, the rodian hiding out there gives more background on the Sith War. Not that it's really important... Also - just to put it into context - the Mandalorian Wars took place some five years before the events of KotOR1. The Sith War took place about 35 years before that, though the Mandalorians were involved (the Mandalore of the time sided with the Sith). The turmoil of the situation after the years of war in the republic probably seemed like an excellent opportunity to conquer the republic for the Mandalorians.

She actually survived Exar Kun and changed her name to Kreia. (How's that, Phantom? " ) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LOL Influence gained If you listen carefully, you can almost hear Kreia laughing at us from beyond the grave...

Exactly. Think of the possible endings that would open up. 1. Current storyline: Visas sees your face as the face of her tormentor, says he was "Just a man. Nothing more." and leaves with you. When you crash on Malacore, she leaves the group and joins Kreia and Sion knowing that the only way that Nihilas will stay dead is your own death, and also knowing that she is not powerful enough to kill you on her own. 2. Alternate Endings w/Nihilas as end boss. a. Like the dual with Sion, this would be a battle of wills, filled with banter between each round. And would have multiple resolutions. - Accepting your role in the war, defeating Nihilas, by resolving your inner guilt and healing the echo. Result: The Exile defeats Nihilas and the two become one again. - Accepting your role in the war, defeating Nihilas physically, but losing to him in the battle of wills, and not healing the echo. With everyone celebrating Nihilas' defeat, you realize from your talks with him that he will never truly die as long as you live. With that in mind, you leap into the core of Malacore, ending your life. - Dark Side: With Nihilas' empty robes and mask lying at your feet, you make a decision not to resolve the pain and anger, but to embrace it. Picking up the mask, you place it on your own face, as your DS-aligned companions one by one drop to one knee. (Or conversely as your stunned companions ignite their lightsabers around you... and the next shot shows you walking from the inner sanctum of the temple, the bodies of your dead traitorous companions lying on the floor behind you.) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Gee, now I'm actually sad it didn't end like that... Still, very compelling story twist. I particularly like how brings some resolution to the Nihilus/Visas relationship, which was curiously lacking or absent in the game. Well done - Influence gained

LOL Seriously though, Kreia merely muses that Revan chose Telos as a target to send the Jedi a message. It's all conjecture on her part, and given highly we know her to think of Revan, it does sort of make sense that she would automatically assume that Revan ordered Telos destroyed for specific strategic reasons rather than Malak ordering Saul Karath to do just to prove his loyalty to the Sith - the latter is the sort of overkill that Kreia hates and fails to understand, so she might dismiss it on that basis. And naturally that still doesn't prevent Revan from building the HK facility under Telos's surface once it's destroyed anyway. It was actually a pretty smart thing to do (at the time...).

For what you're asking, I'd suggest that you get the Influence and Walkthru guides by Dan Simpson. Both are full of spoilers, of course, and if you wan't to stay clear of most of it, I'd suggest you read only the influence guide, but still get the walkthru. You can find both of the here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox/game/920194.html

Of course people become attached to Revan. Revan is their own character, after all. This is the logical consequence of putting him at the center of the role-playing experience, even if it is one as limited as KotOR is... I mean, the storyline is exceedingly linear and forced, and the basic game mechanics from the d20 are extremely limiting and inflexible as character-creation goes, but I disgress...

"That's 'Mr. Space-for-brains' to you!"

I always found that he was still a very good tech even if I did turn him into a jedi - even as a guardian he has enough skill points keep the relevant skills high, and I increased his intelligence to give him one or two more. I mean, his level puts a cap on how high his skills may be in any event, so the skill point drop isn't really so severe, I thought.

I used Handmaiden, Bao-Dur, and Mira. That yielded good result. At one point I substituted Handmaiden for Atton, and it still worked pretty well. Then again, they were all jedi...

Grey is not a "side" - it's a balance between light and dark. Juhani may say Jolee serves the light, but that still begs a lot of interpretation. For example, it is quite true that Jolee does not support the dark side - he will allow Revan to deny the light side as he did himself, but he won't let him embrace the dark side fully, either. You could use that as a basis for calling Jolee light side, I suppose, but it would still be an interpretation. After all, Jolee flat out refuses to listen to Bastila's sales pitch to 'bring him back into the light' - what's all that about if he is already light side? If the lines are that clear, then why can't Jolee use any Jedi items restricted to light side (or to dark side for that matter)? Most Star Wars tales revolving about the Jedi and Sith deal with the sharp contrast between the light and dark side of the force and so become morality plays. Jolee was interesting exactly because he refused to allow that eternal struggle to define him - he would not be a battleground for the war within the force. He was a little like Kreia in that sense, except he didn't hate the force for it or was willing to manipulate others (Kreia wasn't really that balanced or 'grey' in the end...), and he made KotOR1 and Star Wars itself a little richer exactly because he did make the statement that choice was possible - you did not have to bow to the fate that the force set up for you, if you didn't want to. Too bad Kreia didn't meet him - it could have saved us a lot of headache in KotOR2... :D

Oh, I understand so much now.... I just fiddled around with the sound files and came across some very interesting unused conversations between Atris and Kreia, which explains where the HK-50 factory came from - Revan had it built. Basically, Atris mentions how Telos was always supposed to be a sanctuary for the Jedi to retreat to in case the enclave on Dantooine was attacked by the Sith. However, Revan (as a dark lord) knew that and therefore had Telos destroyed (by Saul - won't Carth be furious if he ever finds out?) as a warning to the Jedi that there would be retreat and no escape from him (though, of course, Atris did finally retreat here after the destruction). At the end of the conversation Kreia mentions that she would not be surprised if Revan had left other surprises under the surface of Telos, since burying something beneath a graveyard is a good hiding place, which seems to be a very clear reference to the HK-50 factory. It even makes sense, since Revan had already built HK-47 at the time and then set up the factory to create yet more of these units from the original schematics. If you want to listen to the conversation, it is in the game folder under /streamvoice/262/KREATRIS/ - begin with the 262KREATRIS040.wav file and then play the rest of the files (to 262KREATRIS047.wav). It sheds rather a lot of light on the whole thing.

Hmmm, 16 pages and we *still* aren't really any wiser as to whether Kreia was really the Handmaiden's mother.... Why do I feel like I can hear Kreia laughing smugly from beyond the grave?

This is really a tip and has probably been mentioned many times here, so apologies if this is really old news to you. Bao-Dur is a Zabrak with only one arm, and presumably this is the reason why he cannot use most of the clothing in the game. Yes, he can use most armor, but if you're going to turn him into a Jedi Guardian (and who are we kidding - we all will), then armor will restrict his use of force powers while he will be unable to use jedi robes or so that would allow it. So he can only wear standard clothes or else have his force powers restricted? Well, I found that there is actually one piece of protective clothing that Bao-Dur can use without restricting his force powers - it is the Telos Mining Uniform that the Exile finds on Peragus. Yes, it's a pretty bad piece of clothing, but it does at least offer a defense bonus and it can be upgraded, so it's clearly better than standard clothes that alter nothing. To my knowledge this is the only piece of protective clothing that will allow Bao-Dur go use his force powers unrestricted in the game. Just thought I'd share that...

Of cannons and canon... It seems we are now in danger of being shipwrecked on the undead topic of canon. A few words since this is a topic I have frequently seen become a severe cause of conflict under circumstances that have nothing to do with Star Wars... 1. Being considered canon in no way makes something better or worse than anything else. Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder, after all, and only the consumer/reader/gamer/whoever can decide whether something is better than something else. If you liked a DS female Revan better than canon's LS male Revan, then you're not wrong - canon doesn't exist to ruin your enjoyment. 2. Canon exists only to establish the foundation of continuity. In this case it means that if it ever becomes relevant in official Star Wars (which I find to be quite unlikely), then Revan will be a LS male. Given that Revan is a CRPG character, whose gender and alignment is decided by the player, I'm rather certain that Lucasarts would go to great lengths to avoid ever defining either of these traits in any product. More likely, Revan will be treated as gender-neutral (as in "who knows?") and references will probably point to events that either came before the events of the game or events that were inevitable in the game. Revan's fall to the dark side and his role in the Mandalorian Wars could be referenced, as could his discovery and use of the Starforge, his capture and "reprogramming" by the Jedi council, and his victory over Malak. What he did with the Starforge after defeating Malak would most likely not be mentioned, however. And since everything in KotOR lies after the Tales of the Jedi stories and several thousand years before anything else, it is exceedinly unlikely that Revan - or the Exile for that matter - will ever matter to Star Wars continuity. 3. Continuity matters. Though we might all prefer to have Revan's gender and alignment remain uncertain, we cannot argue that it should always be so for characters whose backgrounds are uncertain. There have been light/dark-side choices in several Star Wars computer games so far. Are these all to be left open? They could be, but then what would happen if it ever became necessary to establish these details officially? I find it better and more fair to state up front what that choice will be, if it ever becomes relevant. Now, we can all argue whether the right choices are made in canon. The simple fact is that some of us will like the choices and some of us won't. Given that canon must make two choices for the main characters of the KotOR games out of eight possibilities, chances are that most of us will not like the choice. Well, keep in mind that at times it is simply more important that a choice - any choice - is made rather than none at all. Since George Lucas created Star Wars, he alone decides what goes and what doesn't in Star Wars. I still find that better than any alternative I can think of. Other than that there is little argument in discussing canon, I think. As I said, some of us will like canon, and some of us won't. Chances are that most of us won't like something in canon. But canon at least establishes a common ground for Star Wars. Discussing it beyond that is an undead thing because it will never lead us to any resolution or closure - we might just as well discuss whether Episode I sucked or rocked, whether Jar Jar is a cool and funny character, or whether KotOR2 was better than KotOR1, as neither discussion will lead us to any meaningful or enlightening conclusion.

Ok. A few points here. Yes, I have no doubt that KotOR3 will pick up on the stories of Revan and the Exile in some form. It simply has to. After all, we spend all of KotOR2 searching for Revan, but we never find him/her, and at the end, our protagonist goes to the outer rim to join Revan and leave any and all allies behind... The story is indeed open-ended. It would have been even had all the cut content been in there, so this must all be picked up on in the next game - that's the promise made to the players. I do agree a bit with something XboxSithLord said, however. It concerns the "True Sith". Just who are these "True Sith" and why are they such a bit threat? Well, they sound very menacing and dangerous, but I've got this nagging feeling that they are so only for the purpose of story and plot reconciliation, and not because the storytellers have something great planned. Remember, in KotOR1 you could play Revan as both dark and light side. If you're light side, then you save the republic, destroy the Starforge, and generally protect the galaxy. All good and well... But if you're dark sided, you'll take control of the Starforge, destroy the republic's last defenses, build huge fleets under your command, and will now become the great dark ruler of the galaxy of the era. Those are very different endings, but at the time of development, it wasn't really much of a problem, was it? I mean, the next known bit of Star Wars story lies almost 3000 years into the future (Jedi vs. Sith, which is even part of the expanded universe) - by then we can safely assume that Revan will long since have been dead in any event, so it really won't matter. Oh, but then they decide to do a sequel. Uh-oh - now they *will* have to deal with the consequences of KotOR1, and how can that be done? Well, they could assume an ending and simply say that Revan was a light side male and ignore the dark side and female options, but that doesn't really work, since people who played those endings will complain - for reasons of sale, a solution must be find that everybody can live with... Now Revan is a real problem to the game design, so what to do? Well, the only solution really is to make Revan a non-factor in the new game. This will effectively make the choices of the first game void, so it has to be scripted right, so that it won't hit the players like a ton of bricks. After all, they likely all played the first game and will want to know what happened to the charactes in it. So how can the Revan problem be fixed? Simple, you create something that would command the attention of Revan whether he/she was good or bad. Then you exile Revan from the game, so that he/she won't interfere with the new plot. That way Revan can sort of stay at the outskirts of the new story in any event. Instead a new character is born, who can also be either gender and good or bad. The character has some relation to Revan, so that the apparent ties to the first game are preserved. Of course, now the trouble is that this new Exile character will end up being just as much of a problem to the plot of the next potential game as Revan has become to the current game. However, if the very thing that commanded Revan's attention is powerful enough, then the new Exile character can go and confront it at the end of the game just as Revan did, no matter whether they character is good or bad. This will leave the game open-ended and at the same time essentially leave the light/dark side choice of the player void, so that it won't interfere with the next plot. It seems to me that though KotOR2 is a well plotted game (despite its unfinished state), it was indeed carefully crafted to allow only one real direction for the game. Note how the Exile's choice between the Jedi and the Sith basically comes to nothing in the end, because of what he discovers on Malachor 5. Now, that doesn't mean it's bad storytelling. I actually rather like the plot of KotOR2 (though it can't say the same for its execution), but that doesn't mean I don't see how the plot was carefully constructed to allow you to make only minor decisions during the game that will not matter in the larger fabric of the how the trilogy itself unfolds - none of the choices you made in KotOR2 will matter in KotOR3, and with Revan's shadow always hanging over you in the game, it is obvious that the Exile will never be the primary character in the KotOR games. What the True Sith will turn out to be remains to be seen. I really wish I could say that I'm sure there are some great plans for what they are (like there were for the shadows in Babylon 5), but to me they still just like a plot-device created to given a common foe for both DS-Revan, LS-Revan, DS-Exile, and LS-Exile to fight. The threat of the True Sith is scary and cool, of course, but I'm not blind to the fact that their existence in the game has basically made any decision between the light side and dark side of the force you have made in either game mean nothing - whether you're Jedi or Sith, you'll have to fight the True Sith in the next game, either to protect your own empire and power (if you're dark side) or to protect the galaxy and the republic.

Wow, interesting topic here. It may have gone off in many different directions, but it's intersting, so who cares? I'll just try to note a few things I noted on reading it all... On there being no "grey" in the force, including Jolee: Jolee is/was indeed grey - he rejects both the light and the dark while walking an extremely thin line between the extremes. He is not Sith, but he is not light side either. Need proof? Note how he can use neither equipment restricted to light nor dark side. Nope, he cannot use the dark side stuff you find on Korriban, but nor can he use the Star Forge Robes or other light side stuff you can find in KotOR1. He is indeed neither light nor dark sided, and this is how it is reflected in game terms. On Kreia being Kae: I really felt this was a misconception going into the topic, but I must confess that there have been made compelling arguments for it being the case. It certainly has not been proven conclusively (or at all), but it seems equally difficult to disprove the theory. I guess many deny the possibility because we just don't like the nice and innocent Handmaiden having such a nasty mother, though I guess it would speak volumes about how the storytellers feel about their mother-in-law, I guess I still feel that the best argument against it is how the Handmaiden goes to great lengths to establish how Echani children look very much like their parents, and she bears the face of her mother. Even had Kreia been altered a lot by the dark side, surely the handmaiden sisters or someone would have noted a striking similarity, wouldn't they? Other than that, the best argument against Kreia being Kae is simply that we never see the scene that the programmers would otherwise have been unable to resist doing: Kreia: No, Servant of Atris - I am your mother! Handmaiden: Noooooooooooo..... [jumps into conveniently-placed nearby bottomless pit...] :D As for Kreia's weird hatred of the force, it seems really odd to me that nobody has actually mentioned something I find really obvious here yet. Particularly when the whole subject has so clearly been beneath the surface of many points here. Bear with me... Note how G0-T0 and some others on Nar Shadaa are describing the Jedi/Sith wars and how people hate the Jedi on Dantooine. A lot of people seem to blame the Jedi for the status quo of the galaxy, and it's interesting how the events of KotOR1 have been named the "Jedi Civil War" when it was really a war between the Jedi and the Sith. Why is that? Well, I mentioned G0-T0 because he actually says it best - few people see much distinction between Jedi and Sith - they just the same, except at different ends of the same philosophy. HK-47 actually says something similar if you ask him enough, as do many other people. The key word I driving toward here is religion. As most common people see, the Jedi and Sith are fighting a religious war over doctrines. This is also stated several times. Now, given how the force is described as a powerful energy/lifeforce that penetrates everything and yet - according to Kreia - has a will of its own, that seems to imply that the force itself is an intelligent and willful entity of some form. No, I'm not talking merely about the midi-chlorians here, who simply seem to facilitate interaction with the force (as Qui-Gon puts it, without the midi-chlorians, the Jedi would simply have no knowledge of the force) - I'm talking about the force itself. Add all this up, and doesn't it begin to sound as if the force is all-powerful and dominating? It certainly implies spirituality in some form, so the next logical step would be to see the force as God as defined by christianity or other religions. The force is different, of course, since it is both good and evil (light side is God, dark side is Satan). Note how Sith lords often have haunting red eyes or similar demonic traits, while the Jedi are almost angelic in many cases (the robes are a bit of a giveaway). So what does that have to do with Kreia? Well, Kreia is the Star Wars version of Ahab (from Melville's "Moby ****") - she is at war with God, i.e., the force. This might also be the reason the storytellers chose to maim her, just as Ahab was crippled (though Ahab lost a leg and Kreia a hand). Of course, it's not entirely the same (the white whale of Moby **** is a metaphor for God, which Ahab feels crippled him, and whom he wants vengeance against), but I still feel that the comparison is fairly obvious and that Kreia certainly blames and hates the force in much the same and therefore seeks vengeance against it. For example, we are never truly told why Kreia hates the force and seeks her vengeance against it, but like Ahab she is certainly willing to stab at the object of her hate with her last breath and is quite willing to sacrifice herself in the pursuit of her goal. Indeed, she knows full well and accepts that she must die as a consequence of her goal, just as Ahab did. And given the sly and deceptive creature that Kreia is, it is somehow fitting that we never learn her motives. Even had she said it, could we believe her? The same of true of her madness - it is madness or not to just the same extent that Ahab's was. And does the Exile himself not end up mirroring the fate of the protagonist of that novel (Ishmael), as Kreia tries to enlist his aid in her struggle, and he alone is eventually turns from her (whether light or dark sided), just as Ishmael did? Sure, this is Star Wars, so it has to be scripted differently, and Kreia's goals are unknown to us for a long time, but other than that, doesn't the similarities seem rather striking? It certainly explained a lot to me...

Yes, I like the idea that Nihilus is sort of the "evil Exile" or more like the "nihilistic Exile", since an evil Exile would be the dark side character you can choose to play. I don't so much like the idea of letting Nihilus having the Exile's face, though. For one thing it has been done before, and I never care much for that sort of ploy. I mean, Nihilus still needs an intelligence behind him/it/whatever to command the fleet, give Visas orders, hunt down the Jedi, etc. Also, Nihilus betrayed Kreia by making an alliance with Sion, and that has some requirements. Considering how sly and manipulative Kreia is, I would hurt the story if Sion just throws his interests with a person who is just an empty void of nothingness and non-intelligence. But I do agree that Nihilus must definitely be tied to the Exile in some form, and given how the Exile is good at forming bonds to other people, I thought he would turn out to be someone the Exile knew well and who died on Malachor. I had a vision of the Exile's brother or best friend or some such (I'd say secret love, except the plot seems to reserve that place for Atris). It should also be someone pivotal to the Exile's decision on Malachor, which is why I mentioned one of the Exile's lieutenants in my last post. It would have been really cool if Nihilus had been the Exile's master or apprentice. I kept having this vision of the Exile seeing this person killed on Malachor and dying in his/her arms, and that was then the very point where the Exile made the choice to deny the force and create the wound in the force - the pain of seeing someone so close die would be so powerful that even the force itself would be swayed by it, and so the Exile could make a choice to step away from his/her fate. However, it was, as Kreia puts it, an escape - the Exile fled the consequences of what his/her choices had made him/her into and just left it all behind. This creates the wound in the force, but because the Exile denies this, some of himself/herself is stranded on Malachor and must exist in some other form. Instead it takes the fallen friend that is the focus of the Exile's torment and uses his body (and intellect) as a vessel for the wound and pain that the Exile has denied. I find that as a story plot this would have been rather powerful, since it would have forced the Exile to face what the choices on Malachor had done to his/her friend and how the Exile cannot escape the consequences of his/her choices and experiences on Malachor. It would also have been powerful to have the Exile come face to face with what his/her choice/flight/escape from reality had done to his/her old friend and made him into, as it would basically mean that the Exile's decision has forced the friend to become a dark and empty shell burdened by the Exile's own guilt and denial.

Yeah, it's a bit annoying that they seem to use those terms interchangeably. I sort of got the difference when Bao-Dur mentioned his thoughts after the Mandalorians came to Iridonia, since that made it clear that it was his homeworld. That made it obvious that he was a Zabrak from Iridonia (and so an Iridonian), like we are all humans from Earth (and so 'earthlings'), but I wish they had been more consistant. I wish they had just referred to him as a Zabrak all along and not iridonian. In fact, I don't think he is ever actually referred to as a zabrak IIRC, which makes it all more confusing. Maybe there are other humanoid species on Iridonia, or maybe Iridonia is just world colonized by Zabraks and there is a different Zabrak homeworld somewhere. I was going to draw a comparison to the intelligent humanoid Mon Calamari and Quarren sharing the same homeworld, but that is actually even more annoying since that world is actually called Mon Calamari, which brings all sorts of trouble with it. What, the quarrens are from Mon Calamari, but can't call themselves that? No wonder there are tensions between the two species...

There's a difference between an open ending and no ending. Empire Strikes Back had an open ending, where it was clear that a lot of plots were intentionally left unanswered (will Han Solo be rescued? Is Vader Luke's father? Will Luke become a jedi now that he has defied Yoda and Obi-Wan? Will Leia choose Han or Luke? Etc.). However, you did get closure to that chapter, even if it was a "to be continued"/cliffhanger ending - you knew where the protagonists were at in their internal relationships and which conflicts they had to confront in the next chapter. You just don't get that in KotOR2. I still don't know if Bao-Dur lived or died, or whether G0-T0 or the drone won their little fight. I know that Mira (or Hanharr, if you were lightsided) lived, but otherwise I'm left with no idea of what happened to the characters I spend an entire game building relationships with. Kreia makes some predictions, but - I mean - consider the source.... Sure, I've read and heard much of the cut material, but we still don't know whether that will be considered 'canon' in the next game. After all, since it didn't make it into the actual game, it is not impossible for the developers of KotOR3 to just ignore it all, since it didn't really happen - it was just something planned that never made it into the game.

How so? I have read those comics (well, I own them all...), and I think both KotOR games have done a pretty good job of acknowledging their existence. I mean, the KotOR games were built on the success of those comic-books and used them as the foundation. I don't see where they show any disrespect. I mean, they called the games 'Knights of the Old Republic', which was the title given to the collected paperback version of the "Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beast Wars of Onderon" and "Saga of Nomi Sundrider" in the five original issues of Tales of the Jedi. And how was the Jedi order different? Yes, there were some differences, but it was obvious that it would change some, given that Ossus was pretty much destroyed and the original order shattered at the end of the Sith War saga. I actually think we could make a better case of voicing disrespect of the original where starships are concerned, as they all look far more futuristic in the KotOR games (where they don't look too dissimilar to the starships of the movies some 4000 years later) than they did in the Tales of the Jedi comics, where the ships really did have an archaic feel to them.

I'm not ignoring what happened in the last game, but the thing is that if you played light side and set Revan to light side, then there can still be Jedi left such as the Exile's companions (Atton, Handmaiden, Visas, Bao-Dur, Mira...) and possibly even Atris, if she turned back to the light side. And we know Bastila is still around. Also, while the academy on Dantooine was rebuilt only to have all the Jedi masters there die and most others were killed on Katarr by Nihilus, we still haven't heard anything about what, if anything, happened to the Jedi Council on Coruscant. And we do know there is a Jedi council on Coruscant. When Revan reaches the enclave on Dantooine in KotOR1, he/she comments that he thought the council was on Coruscant. Vandar replies that this is correct, but that the enclave is simply a training facility. So the fate of the council on Coruscant is still uncertain.

Yes, KotOR2 is bigger, deeper... except for a few problems: 1. It's not finished - there are hordes and hordes of plots left hanging. 2. The cast isn't really any more interesting than in the first. Kreia is about the coolest character, but then Jolee was just as complex in the first game. HK-47 is still interesting, but he was in both games... Bastila and Handmaiden seem to share many... issues. The most interesting change is probably Visas, who is indeed more interesting and deep than Juhani was. You don't get to know her as well as Juhani, though. 3. You actually get to know who you're playing in KotOR1. I still don't feel I know the character I was playing KotOR2 even after finishing the game... You might feel different, but I had great difficulty identifying with the Exile since the game wouldn't let me know him. 4. Point 1 above means that you lack a certain sense of accomplishment after finishing KotOR2. I definitely got my payoff in the first game. Yes, KotOR2 has a richer story, but I only know that because I visit this forum and listen to the missing sound-files and read about the removed plots - not because I played the game. 5. As with all sequels, the original is always more, well, original... KotOR2 is an improvement in many respects within the actual game, but it doesn't feel as fresh as KotOR1, and there are many character from the first games I miss or recurring characters that I dislike or just find annoying. The most annoying thing in KotOR2 is probably how it keeps circling around Revan without ever letting us make any real discoveries of what happened to him.

I actually put the major events of the KotOR games into my txt version of the complete timeline (which always describes the passage of time compared to the original Star Wars movie). The Sith War, which ends with Exar Kun's fall, officially takes place in 3996 before SW4. His fall is described as being about 40 years before KotOR1, which I therefore presume to take place 3956 years before SW4. KotOR2 takes place five years after that, which would then be 3951 years before SW4. Not official, but should be close enough.

Statement: Master, my photo-receptors might be malfunctioning, since I fail to see any obvious examples of the hostile nature you describe here. Query: Could you perhaps direct us to where you find this source of hostility toward my masters? Conclusion: If you do, I can assure that I shall happily activate my assassination protocols in order to burn holes into the arguments of any erring meatbags of your choice. Yes, my bad - couldn't resist... Please take the above in the proper context.