Jediphile

In the end, I suppose this topic has to remain inconclusive. Not because there haven't been excellent either way, but it seems that while there is no clear proof - no "smoking gun" - to establish that Kreia is indeed Arren Kae, there is still a lot of clues that infers it is so. I have this odd idea that maybe Obsidian don't even know the answer themselves. Maybe it was indeed considered at one point that Kreia might be Kae, but there was uncertainty as to whether it would be a good idea or not (too much like the Luke-Vader thing), and so the idea ceased being developed, though the clues to suggest it remain. I find that actually fits the game - or just Kreia's character - extremely well. After all, what is Kreia if not secretive and mysterious? You could call her a liar (which she frequently is), but there is no doubt she knows more than she admits. Trouble is that when she does tell you something, you still can't take her word for it. She really reminds me of Garak on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, who was also a very secretive and insidious character claiming to be nothing but a simple Cardassian tailor (or as he put it, "Plain, simple Garak"...). It was a lot of fun to watch his manipulations over the years, not least because he never truly lied - there was always just some element of truth to his comments. Like when his "friend" Dr. Bashir has discovered lots of stories about him and wants to know the truth... Bashir: "I want to know, of all the stories you told me, which ones were true, and which ones weren't?" Garak: "My dear doctor, they're all true." Bashir: "Even the lies?" Garak: "Especially the lies!" Sorry, don't mean to turn this into a Star Trek-thing, but isn't that exactly the sort of character Kreia is? Well, she is a little less playful and a lot more nefarious about it, but otherwise she seemed very similar to me, although she didn't get any lines nearly as good as Garak's. I was really waiting for something along the lines of Garak's statement that, "I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences!" or my favorite: "The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination..." :D For Kreia it seems obvious that mystery and deception were key words. She was ultimately a manipulator and a traitor, but naturally that couldn't be revealed until the very end, and even then we aren't allowed to know all her secrets. Maybe Obsidian just decided that leaving the Kreia=Kae question open would really fit well with Kreia's deceptiveness. I tend to agree with them. I mean, just look at what it has spawned here.... :D I almost hope we never get a clear answer either way. Almost...

I'd like multiple paths in games too, but the fact is that it just isn't cost-effective to do it. Sure it was great in the Fallout series (and a lot of people behind that work at Obsidian now), but there is an important distinction - in Fallout all the dialogue was text only (except the very few "talking heads"), so doing an alternate was mostly a question of writing some extra comments in there and perhaps a few more graphics. That's not the case anymore, since all dialogue is expected to be spoken, which makes it very expensive to produce. The same is true for graphics and programming, which is also far more demanding today. Computer games have become an industry, and what used to be three to eight guys playing around with a game has become monster groups of 20+ people working full time for more than a year just to produce one game. That makes it for to costly to produce stuff in the games that players won't see - the most will be a few sideplots here and there for replay value, and this is a major reason why most CRPGs today take a "one size fit all" approach even if there are supposed to be different choices and endings in a game - not, for example, how the light/dark side choice is forced only very late in both KotOR games, even though it's best for the player to make that choice as soon as possible. This happens for a reason. You and me both... I'd like that too, but I hear Lucasarts don't like to let people mod their games, so that's probably totally out Obsidian's hands. Still, I'm confident the modding community won't let that stop them This is unlikely for the same reasons given above - if you being as jedi you can still 'fall' to the dark side during the game, so there is no reason why the devs should bother to write a sith academy. They're undoubtedly supposed to feel like the movies, since that is what the largest demographic will resond positively too. You cannot get rid of Revan or the Exile, though, since KotOR3 is probably supposed to close the story for at least Revan. I'm quite certain you'll be playing a new jedi, though, as playing Revan or Exile from the beginning (as some have suggested) would make the game seem less accessible to people who have not played chapthers 1 and 2. I wouldn't mind a game like that, but not as a KotOR title. It wouldn't be "Knights of the Old Republic" in that case - these are games where jedi (and sith) are at the center. Other games can go in other directions, though. Having a bounty hunter ally could be fun, though (and no, I don't count Mira in KotOR2 - she may have called herself a bounty hunter, but she was no Boba Fett.) Well, since I do want to see Revan and the Exile, I'm obviously to agree with you. To each his own, I guess... Some of what you suggest might be worked into the plot, though.

First of, I'm surprised you seem so hellbent on killing off every single jedi in existence. Why is that? Surely there a few left. It's also seems rather double standard to demand that every single on of them is dead and then make a particular exception for Jolee just because you like him. I like Jolee too, but other people like Nomi or Juhani or whomever and your preferences is no better (or worse) than anyone else's... nor is mine. Also, it's similar double standard to say that Atton, Bao-Dur, etc. cannot be presumed to be jedi because that is player choice and then proceed to call Revan, Bastila and the Exile Jedi - if you chose dark side endings so far then they are all Sith and not Jedi, and that choice is just as legitimate as turning your companions in KotOR2 into jedi - they can all be presumed to be jedi just as much as Revan, Bastila and the Exile can be presumed to be light side. Finally, you're reading what you want to read from my post and not what I wrote. I specifically said "knights-made-masters due to necessity", which more than implies a group of very inexperienced jedi working together to reestablish the order in some form and who *call* themselves the high counsel. They would, however, be neither masters or high council in the way those terms would be taken before the Sith War or similar. Yes, I incorrectly mentioned master Arca when I meant to say master Thon (the big ox-like creature that trained Nomi). Mea culpa. I have apparently also mistaken the reference to which Vima was meast in the source mentioned. Still not sure, but I'll take your word for it. Still, if she is Vima's grandchild, then it does seem to suggest that Vima Sunrider must have lived through the events were talking about... I'd pretty much go along with that. I'd still say there might be a few jedi left, but not to the extent that they can put up much or indeed any king of a fight if the Sith began a concentrated invasion of the republic. If KotOR1 ended with the dark side ending, then Jolee is dead and neither Revan nor Bastila are jedi. If KotOR2 ended with the dark side ending then neither is the Exile (or he cannot be called a jedi since he just steals the force from others - if there is no force to steal, then he'll have no jedi powers at all), so if we're going to take things to the level you suggest then the game must be renamed since there are likely no jedi - no knights - left at all, unless you suggest that the light side endings of the previous games, particularly the first, should just be assumed and forced on the game - personally I wouldn't want that (though I do tend to play light side...). Kreia hated the force - she didn't much care about the struggle between the jedi and the sith. And the game is called "Knights of the Old Republic", so we must have jedi *knights* in it.

Very nice site. Looks like excellent work so far. Already bookmarked the site for future reference. Thanks for making an effort for making the lost material available in some form when it sadly was not included in the game. Your efforts are appreciated. Influence gained!

Being a powerful jedi "warrior" does not mean she was a guardian. Yoda is a Jedi Consular, yet he has been called a "great warrior" (by Luke) and proved it too against Dooku (and likely will again in Episode III...). Besides, given that Kreia was cast from the force as both Revan and the Exile were, that doesn't mean she can't have been a guardian in the past. I mean, Revan is also a noted jedi warrior and the Exile a great general. By that logic they would both be jedi guardians, yet their classes are selectable in the game, so I wouldn't read too much into that...

In the interest of putting out flames... This whole "there is/isn't a Jedi Council" is starting to become very... confrontational. Remember where anger leads... In fact, there is merit to both sides of the argument. I'll go over both. Arguments why there is no council: You have to look at how Jedi have been steadily dying at the time up the end of KotOR2. Not everybody may know this, having not read the Tales of the Jedi comic books (particularly the Sith War), but many, many, many jedi died during that war. Now before you go ahead and dismiss that as unrelated, you should note that these games were built on the basis of those comic books, and events from them are frequently referenced in the games. Indeed, the first five issues told two stories - "Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beast-Riders of Onderon" and "The Saga of Nomi Sunrider". When those five originals were reprinted as a trade-paperback, it was retitled "Knights of the Old Republic" years before the first KotOR game came out. And note those names - Ulic, Nomi, and Onderon should all names familiar to KotOR fanatics. So consider these losses to the jedi over the last 50 or so years: - Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma begin the Sith War. They convert many jedi students and them to kill their jedi masters. Many, many masters are killed, and by the end of the war only about 1000 jedi are left. - The Mandalorian Wars (about 35 years later). The Jedi are split on whether to get involved in the Mandalorian invasions given their failing numbers in recent years. It splits the order and many jedi leave to fight the Mandalorians, leaving the order forever either to be killed in the war or be converted to the Sith by Revan. - Jedi Civil War (KotOR1). Revan and Malak wage war on the jedi, hunting them down and attacking the republic. When Revan is captured, Malak continues to hunt down or convert the jedi in his place - The Sith Lords (KotOR2). With Revan and Malak gone, the Sith are in disarray and fight among themselves. It doesn't help the jedi much, however, because shortly after the Jedi find themselves hunted down and killed by the Sith whenever they go. To stand united against the problem, the remaining jedi gather on Katarr only to be killed when Darth Nihilus drains the planet of all life. The few remaining jedi spread and hide to draw the insidious Sith out even as the Exchange offers huge rewards for captured Jedi. Soon there are no known jedi left, and the remaining jedi masters from the council on Dantooine are killed soon after too. Conclusion: If there are any jedi left, then they are indeed few. Arguments for there still being a council:

So do a lot of people, but that's what Star Wars: Battlefront is for...

Game system: GURPS - no question. The Star Trek ICON system (by Last Unicorn Games) had some merit, as does White Wolf's Storyteller system, particularly in Exalted, but GURPS is without question the best system around - no restrictive, stupid rules and no inflexible class-system that won't allow me to create the character I want to. In GURPS I can build exactly the character I want to. Campaign: Well, I've been around a lot of games, so it's difficult to say. My classic campaign (which I still run with AD&D 2e rules) is Mystara (the original OD&D Known World campaign). For atmospheric and tense role-playing, however, there is no second to Call of Cthulhu. I like science fiction too, so I've enjoyed role-playing both Star Trek and Star Wars games, no matter which rules they use (though I like the current rules for both games least of all...). Ars Magica is also an excellent game, and I'm currently enjoying White Wolf's Exalted game a lot as a player.

I usually play wizards or mages for some reason. I like to play them as extremely secretive and complex with lots and lots of innuendo, a little like Kreia in KotOR2. However, the difference from Kreia is that my characters are rarely evil or selfish, they're just complex and annoyed by immaturity of the world around them. In that sense they are a bit more like Gandalf, but without the tolerant and accepting grand-father side. In role-playing terms this frequently means that the other players are constantly uncertain about what my wizard is up to and whether he can be trusted. I used an old wizard of mine as a recurring NPC in a campaign where I'm GM for a while, and I ended up using him a lot more than I planned because the players really liked how I played him. Must have done something right, I guess... I don't like playing evil characters, though. Somehow they are just too boring - there is no challenge in behaving like a complete jerk to everyone - it quickly becomes a bit too much like Richard III to me in those situations, so I tend to avoid them, because charactes with no ethics or conscience are just plain boring. This is also why I didn't like playing Revan as a DS male in KotOR1 - he was just a jerk to everyone, while DS male Revan was burdened and complex.

As others have said, it depends entirely on the situation. I always ask the player first whether he (or she) is likely to share information with the rest of the group, and what sort of information he would like to keep to himself. That leaves the decision a bit with the player. But rather than throwing everybody else out of the room, I usually choose to leave the room with the player myself. After all, if there are five or six people in the room, it makes more sense for two people to leave rather than three or four, especially since the information I will be giving to the player is frequently very short and simple. Of course, that can leave me away from my DM info or my dice, but since I improvize a lot as DM. That's not to say that I don't prepare for games, but I find I very rarely spend time doing stats for monsters/enemies and so, because the plot itself and the players' decisions always take priority. Then again, that might just be my experience as a GM (well over a decade) and the fact that my group is tends to do rather deep role-playing speaking... I don't have good experience with multiple GMs, though. Again, that could just be my experience revealing me as set in my ways as GM, but as the storyteller I like to have complete control over where my plot is going. If I were to share that with anyone, I'd worry that I'd be unable to let player choices influence the game as directly as I prefer it to. For example, I like to be able to stop a battle if the players suddenly decide to call for a parlay or similar. As GM I'm both a storyteller and a referee, and I need to be able to respond quickly to player choices. And I will not let the rules dictate to me where my plot is going!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> And what is the Exar Kun war ? Is that other name for the Mandalorian wars? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No its a war before the Mandalorian War, Exar Kun was a powerful Dark Jedi, who waged war on the republic and the Council, IIRC he made his temple on Yavin 4, and a Jedi fleet had to bombard him from orbit or something to take him out. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's actually called "The Sith War" because the Sith fought internally for power, primarily Exar Kun and Ulic-Qel Droma, both of which are heavily referenced in the KotOR games (this is all from the Tales of the Jedi comic books). If you visit Yavin station in KotOR1, the rodian hiding out there gives more background on the Sith War. Not that it's really important... Also - just to put it into context - the Mandalorian Wars took place some five years before the events of KotOR1. The Sith War took place about 35 years before that, though the Mandalorians were involved (the Mandalore of the time sided with the Sith). The turmoil of the situation after the years of war in the republic probably seemed like an excellent opportunity to conquer the republic for the Mandalorians.

She actually survived Exar Kun and changed her name to Kreia. (How's that, Phantom? " ) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LOL Influence gained If you listen carefully, you can almost hear Kreia laughing at us from beyond the grave...

Exactly. Think of the possible endings that would open up. 1. Current storyline: Visas sees your face as the face of her tormentor, says he was "Just a man. Nothing more." and leaves with you. When you crash on Malacore, she leaves the group and joins Kreia and Sion knowing that the only way that Nihilas will stay dead is your own death, and also knowing that she is not powerful enough to kill you on her own. 2. Alternate Endings w/Nihilas as end boss. a. Like the dual with Sion, this would be a battle of wills, filled with banter between each round. And would have multiple resolutions. - Accepting your role in the war, defeating Nihilas, by resolving your inner guilt and healing the echo. Result: The Exile defeats Nihilas and the two become one again. - Accepting your role in the war, defeating Nihilas physically, but losing to him in the battle of wills, and not healing the echo. With everyone celebrating Nihilas' defeat, you realize from your talks with him that he will never truly die as long as you live. With that in mind, you leap into the core of Malacore, ending your life. - Dark Side: With Nihilas' empty robes and mask lying at your feet, you make a decision not to resolve the pain and anger, but to embrace it. Picking up the mask, you place it on your own face, as your DS-aligned companions one by one drop to one knee. (Or conversely as your stunned companions ignite their lightsabers around you... and the next shot shows you walking from the inner sanctum of the temple, the bodies of your dead traitorous companions lying on the floor behind you.) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Gee, now I'm actually sad it didn't end like that... Still, very compelling story twist. I particularly like how brings some resolution to the Nihilus/Visas relationship, which was curiously lacking or absent in the game. Well done - Influence gained

LOL Seriously though, Kreia merely muses that Revan chose Telos as a target to send the Jedi a message. It's all conjecture on her part, and given highly we know her to think of Revan, it does sort of make sense that she would automatically assume that Revan ordered Telos destroyed for specific strategic reasons rather than Malak ordering Saul Karath to do just to prove his loyalty to the Sith - the latter is the sort of overkill that Kreia hates and fails to understand, so she might dismiss it on that basis. And naturally that still doesn't prevent Revan from building the HK facility under Telos's surface once it's destroyed anyway. It was actually a pretty smart thing to do (at the time...).

For what you're asking, I'd suggest that you get the Influence and Walkthru guides by Dan Simpson. Both are full of spoilers, of course, and if you wan't to stay clear of most of it, I'd suggest you read only the influence guide, but still get the walkthru. You can find both of the here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox/game/920194.html

Of course people become attached to Revan. Revan is their own character, after all. This is the logical consequence of putting him at the center of the role-playing experience, even if it is one as limited as KotOR is... I mean, the storyline is exceedingly linear and forced, and the basic game mechanics from the d20 are extremely limiting and inflexible as character-creation goes, but I disgress...

"That's 'Mr. Space-for-brains' to you!"

I always found that he was still a very good tech even if I did turn him into a jedi - even as a guardian he has enough skill points keep the relevant skills high, and I increased his intelligence to give him one or two more. I mean, his level puts a cap on how high his skills may be in any event, so the skill point drop isn't really so severe, I thought.

I used Handmaiden, Bao-Dur, and Mira. That yielded good result. At one point I substituted Handmaiden for Atton, and it still worked pretty well. Then again, they were all jedi...

Grey is not a "side" - it's a balance between light and dark. Juhani may say Jolee serves the light, but that still begs a lot of interpretation. For example, it is quite true that Jolee does not support the dark side - he will allow Revan to deny the light side as he did himself, but he won't let him embrace the dark side fully, either. You could use that as a basis for calling Jolee light side, I suppose, but it would still be an interpretation. After all, Jolee flat out refuses to listen to Bastila's sales pitch to 'bring him back into the light' - what's all that about if he is already light side? If the lines are that clear, then why can't Jolee use any Jedi items restricted to light side (or to dark side for that matter)? Most Star Wars tales revolving about the Jedi and Sith deal with the sharp contrast between the light and dark side of the force and so become morality plays. Jolee was interesting exactly because he refused to allow that eternal struggle to define him - he would not be a battleground for the war within the force. He was a little like Kreia in that sense, except he didn't hate the force for it or was willing to manipulate others (Kreia wasn't really that balanced or 'grey' in the end...), and he made KotOR1 and Star Wars itself a little richer exactly because he did make the statement that choice was possible - you did not have to bow to the fate that the force set up for you, if you didn't want to. Too bad Kreia didn't meet him - it could have saved us a lot of headache in KotOR2... :D

Oh, I understand so much now.... I just fiddled around with the sound files and came across some very interesting unused conversations between Atris and Kreia, which explains where the HK-50 factory came from - Revan had it built. Basically, Atris mentions how Telos was always supposed to be a sanctuary for the Jedi to retreat to in case the enclave on Dantooine was attacked by the Sith. However, Revan (as a dark lord) knew that and therefore had Telos destroyed (by Saul - won't Carth be furious if he ever finds out?) as a warning to the Jedi that there would be retreat and no escape from him (though, of course, Atris did finally retreat here after the destruction). At the end of the conversation Kreia mentions that she would not be surprised if Revan had left other surprises under the surface of Telos, since burying something beneath a graveyard is a good hiding place, which seems to be a very clear reference to the HK-50 factory. It even makes sense, since Revan had already built HK-47 at the time and then set up the factory to create yet more of these units from the original schematics. If you want to listen to the conversation, it is in the game folder under /streamvoice/262/KREATRIS/ - begin with the 262KREATRIS040.wav file and then play the rest of the files (to 262KREATRIS047.wav). It sheds rather a lot of light on the whole thing.

Hmmm, 16 pages and we *still* aren't really any wiser as to whether Kreia was really the Handmaiden's mother.... Why do I feel like I can hear Kreia laughing smugly from beyond the grave?

This is really a tip and has probably been mentioned many times here, so apologies if this is really old news to you. Bao-Dur is a Zabrak with only one arm, and presumably this is the reason why he cannot use most of the clothing in the game. Yes, he can use most armor, but if you're going to turn him into a Jedi Guardian (and who are we kidding - we all will), then armor will restrict his use of force powers while he will be unable to use jedi robes or so that would allow it. So he can only wear standard clothes or else have his force powers restricted? Well, I found that there is actually one piece of protective clothing that Bao-Dur can use without restricting his force powers - it is the Telos Mining Uniform that the Exile finds on Peragus. Yes, it's a pretty bad piece of clothing, but it does at least offer a defense bonus and it can be upgraded, so it's clearly better than standard clothes that alter nothing. To my knowledge this is the only piece of protective clothing that will allow Bao-Dur go use his force powers unrestricted in the game. Just thought I'd share that...

Of cannons and canon... It seems we are now in danger of being shipwrecked on the undead topic of canon. A few words since this is a topic I have frequently seen become a severe cause of conflict under circumstances that have nothing to do with Star Wars... 1. Being considered canon in no way makes something better or worse than anything else. Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder, after all, and only the consumer/reader/gamer/whoever can decide whether something is better than something else. If you liked a DS female Revan better than canon's LS male Revan, then you're not wrong - canon doesn't exist to ruin your enjoyment. 2. Canon exists only to establish the foundation of continuity. In this case it means that if it ever becomes relevant in official Star Wars (which I find to be quite unlikely), then Revan will be a LS male. Given that Revan is a CRPG character, whose gender and alignment is decided by the player, I'm rather certain that Lucasarts would go to great lengths to avoid ever defining either of these traits in any product. More likely, Revan will be treated as gender-neutral (as in "who knows?") and references will probably point to events that either came before the events of the game or events that were inevitable in the game. Revan's fall to the dark side and his role in the Mandalorian Wars could be referenced, as could his discovery and use of the Starforge, his capture and "reprogramming" by the Jedi council, and his victory over Malak. What he did with the Starforge after defeating Malak would most likely not be mentioned, however. And since everything in KotOR lies after the Tales of the Jedi stories and several thousand years before anything else, it is exceedinly unlikely that Revan - or the Exile for that matter - will ever matter to Star Wars continuity. 3. Continuity matters. Though we might all prefer to have Revan's gender and alignment remain uncertain, we cannot argue that it should always be so for characters whose backgrounds are uncertain. There have been light/dark-side choices in several Star Wars computer games so far. Are these all to be left open? They could be, but then what would happen if it ever became necessary to establish these details officially? I find it better and more fair to state up front what that choice will be, if it ever becomes relevant. Now, we can all argue whether the right choices are made in canon. The simple fact is that some of us will like the choices and some of us won't. Given that canon must make two choices for the main characters of the KotOR games out of eight possibilities, chances are that most of us will not like the choice. Well, keep in mind that at times it is simply more important that a choice - any choice - is made rather than none at all. Since George Lucas created Star Wars, he alone decides what goes and what doesn't in Star Wars. I still find that better than any alternative I can think of. Other than that there is little argument in discussing canon, I think. As I said, some of us will like canon, and some of us won't. Chances are that most of us won't like something in canon. But canon at least establishes a common ground for Star Wars. Discussing it beyond that is an undead thing because it will never lead us to any resolution or closure - we might just as well discuss whether Episode I sucked or rocked, whether Jar Jar is a cool and funny character, or whether KotOR2 was better than KotOR1, as neither discussion will lead us to any meaningful or enlightening conclusion.

Ok. A few points here. Yes, I have no doubt that KotOR3 will pick up on the stories of Revan and the Exile in some form. It simply has to. After all, we spend all of KotOR2 searching for Revan, but we never find him/her, and at the end, our protagonist goes to the outer rim to join Revan and leave any and all allies behind... The story is indeed open-ended. It would have been even had all the cut content been in there, so this must all be picked up on in the next game - that's the promise made to the players. I do agree a bit with something XboxSithLord said, however. It concerns the "True Sith". Just who are these "True Sith" and why are they such a bit threat? Well, they sound very menacing and dangerous, but I've got this nagging feeling that they are so only for the purpose of story and plot reconciliation, and not because the storytellers have something great planned. Remember, in KotOR1 you could play Revan as both dark and light side. If you're light side, then you save the republic, destroy the Starforge, and generally protect the galaxy. All good and well... But if you're dark sided, you'll take control of the Starforge, destroy the republic's last defenses, build huge fleets under your command, and will now become the great dark ruler of the galaxy of the era. Those are very different endings, but at the time of development, it wasn't really much of a problem, was it? I mean, the next known bit of Star Wars story lies almost 3000 years into the future (Jedi vs. Sith, which is even part of the expanded universe) - by then we can safely assume that Revan will long since have been dead in any event, so it really won't matter. Oh, but then they decide to do a sequel. Uh-oh - now they *will* have to deal with the consequences of KotOR1, and how can that be done? Well, they could assume an ending and simply say that Revan was a light side male and ignore the dark side and female options, but that doesn't really work, since people who played those endings will complain - for reasons of sale, a solution must be find that everybody can live with... Now Revan is a real problem to the game design, so what to do? Well, the only solution really is to make Revan a non-factor in the new game. This will effectively make the choices of the first game void, so it has to be scripted right, so that it won't hit the players like a ton of bricks. After all, they likely all played the first game and will want to know what happened to the charactes in it. So how can the Revan problem be fixed? Simple, you create something that would command the attention of Revan whether he/she was good or bad. Then you exile Revan from the game, so that he/she won't interfere with the new plot. That way Revan can sort of stay at the outskirts of the new story in any event. Instead a new character is born, who can also be either gender and good or bad. The character has some relation to Revan, so that the apparent ties to the first game are preserved. Of course, now the trouble is that this new Exile character will end up being just as much of a problem to the plot of the next potential game as Revan has become to the current game. However, if the very thing that commanded Revan's attention is powerful enough, then the new Exile character can go and confront it at the end of the game just as Revan did, no matter whether they character is good or bad. This will leave the game open-ended and at the same time essentially leave the light/dark side choice of the player void, so that it won't interfere with the next plot. It seems to me that though KotOR2 is a well plotted game (despite its unfinished state), it was indeed carefully crafted to allow only one real direction for the game. Note how the Exile's choice between the Jedi and the Sith basically comes to nothing in the end, because of what he discovers on Malachor 5. Now, that doesn't mean it's bad storytelling. I actually rather like the plot of KotOR2 (though it can't say the same for its execution), but that doesn't mean I don't see how the plot was carefully constructed to allow you to make only minor decisions during the game that will not matter in the larger fabric of the how the trilogy itself unfolds - none of the choices you made in KotOR2 will matter in KotOR3, and with Revan's shadow always hanging over you in the game, it is obvious that the Exile will never be the primary character in the KotOR games. What the True Sith will turn out to be remains to be seen. I really wish I could say that I'm sure there are some great plans for what they are (like there were for the shadows in Babylon 5), but to me they still just like a plot-device created to given a common foe for both DS-Revan, LS-Revan, DS-Exile, and LS-Exile to fight. The threat of the True Sith is scary and cool, of course, but I'm not blind to the fact that their existence in the game has basically made any decision between the light side and dark side of the force you have made in either game mean nothing - whether you're Jedi or Sith, you'll have to fight the True Sith in the next game, either to protect your own empire and power (if you're dark side) or to protect the galaxy and the republic.