Jediphile

Yeah. I guess I should just take it as a badge of honor - if people like that find it in their hearts to flame me, then I must be doing something right...

Somehow I wish you or someone else had jumped in to say this earlier. Can't blame anyone for not getting involved, but it might have spared me from trolling by metadigital and flaming by XboxSithLord...

Hmm, but then how was he/she able to get from Coruscant to Tatooine unnoticed, so that Anakin could see her death, and then return in time to be elected special powers by the senate... Oh, I get it - the Shmi that died was just a clone...

Hmm, that does leave us with a continuity problem, however. After the days of Darth Bane, there can only be two Sith - the master and the apprentice. But if Palpatine ordered Dooku to kill Sifo Dyas, then it doesn't add up, since that took place before the events of Episode I (according to Obi-Wan's statements in Episode II), at which time Sidious naturally still had Maul as his apprentice. This way we end with at least one Sith too many, and it also begs the question of who then deleted Kamino from the jedi archives, since Sifo-Dyas wouldn't have, and Dooku couldn't having already left the jedi order (or he would not be working for Palpatine yet)...

Yeah, that was so lame... As if the midi-chlorians bit and young Anakin in Episode I wasn't bad enough - "Let's try spinning - that's a neat trick!" :angry:

True, but then Palpatine did make sure to stay a step ahead of his apprentice. Dooku was kept around only for as long as it took Palpatine to find a new apprentice - once Dooku grew too powerful, bye to his head... As for Anakin, Palpatine made sure to demoralize him completely by telling him that he killed Padm

That's the danger, yes, but it might still happen that someone writes a game/program that caters to everyone's roleplaying desires. Otherwise we'll have to wait for the time when we get neural networks as standard in our computers... Well, I'm certainly not about to speak out against that, having myself suggested The Exile's return as Darth Nihilus in my own suggestions :D I'm much more skeptical about the mind wipe - it looks far too much like Revan's fate in KotOR1, and will give us yet another amnesic jedi. Most people seem to be sick of that theme, and I can't say I blame them - we've seen it twice in as many games... I'd much rather play a new, young jedi padawan on his/her way to glory and whose innocence and idealism must eventually save the day. I posted lengthy descriptions on my plot suggestions in earlier parts of the this topic (yes, I'm very verbose - there, I admit it...), though I never quite finished it. Definitely Coruscant - I want the game to begin and end there. Alderaan, yes. I also wanted Myrkr to give the non-jedi an advantage and for an ending I had in mind. Not sure about the rest, though. Don't see much point in Mon Calamari (yet another water planet? We already had Manaan...). And I really don't want Yavin IV, since I think it'll interfere with Exar Kun's fate. If it's for the purpose of following in Naga Sadow's footsteps, I'd much rather see his hidden base on Khar Shian. I assume the Unknown World is the Rakatan homeworld from KotOR1, in which I'd vote against it - we've seen it and are done with the Rakatans. I don't want Zonama Sekot either, though for the opposite reasons - the Yuuzhan Vong belongs to the future of EU - please let it rest there. I'd much rather see Ziost or other Sith worlds. Oh, and I'd like to finally see Sleheyron, too.

Amen! I can confirm this myself having been the GM of a PnP game for fifteen years and counting, my current campaign now entering its eleventh year IIRC. And PnP is much easier to handle, because I don't actually have to prepare for all the eventualities in advance. Naturally I try to anticipate the choices the players will make (and usually guess correctly - I know the players, after all), but even if they do something I didn't expect, I can make calls on the fly and let the plot unfold unhindered with the changes necessary. A CRPG doesn't have that option, however, and therefore all possible choices must be taken into account by the programmers in advance, no matter how minute they are. Plus, of course, the programmers don't know the player. Basically this is the main reason why most games are completely linear with no diviation, and why we no longer see games like Elite or Frontier or even something like Ultima VI or VII, where you could do pretty much anything you could think of - open-ended games are a programmer's nightmare, because the sheer number of possible outcomes they have to cater to are astronomical. Doing a completely linear story is far more manageable, and so allows much more attention to things like plot development and character complexity. Of course, with the internet that might all chance with online games, but those are - for now - still fairly poor in characterization and strictly controlled by the companies. Some are run by the gamers, but often fall into the trap of everyone wanting to play the toughest character around. Still, if some company released an online RPG where the players can take control of story and characterization, then we might actually see brilliant CRPGs that allow for such things, since there will then be GMs online to deal with unexpected choices instead of having the programmers have to think of them beforehand. I don't think any company will release such a game, however, since it would be strategically unsound from a marketing point of view - they'd be giving the players full control and so making themselves obsolete, which means no further sales. But it might happen if a company doesn't see that. A bit like the internet itself, which has become a monster beyond all control of its makers.

Sorry :">

LOL I can see Shmi now: "Anakin, there's something I didn't tell you..." :D And so we have the Star Wars version of "Devil's Advocate"...

Now that we've seen the prequel trilogy, I'm left with the question of where Palpatine actually came from. We know he has ties to Naboo, since he is the senator of the planet, when we first see him, but other than that, we have no background for him at all, and he seems to be completely unknown to the jedi. Does this strike anyone else as odd? I mean, most Sith are falled jedi, so chances are that the jedi would have trained him at some point, particularly at this time, when the Sith are said to have been extinct for a millennium (that's exactly how Kai-Adi Mundi puts it in Episode I). Mace Windu notes that the Sith could not have returned with the jedi knowing about it, so it seems clear that the jedi have remained wary of the Sith, even if we might think they've grown negligent in their vigil. Now, training a Sith lord as powerful as Palpatine isn't exactly something you do quietly, so although the Stih were patient, it is odd that the Jedi have not noticed them, and even more so, if Palpatine could infiltrate the senate without attracting attention. If the jedi trained him, then it seems they should have been much more aware of his plans and powers once he took to politics, yet they plan wars and politics with him without ever raising an eyebrow. To me that suggests that he was simply unknown to the jedi. I doubt he could have done that without extensive powers, but where did he learn those if not from the jedi? The Sith have supposedly been extinct for a thousand years, so where did they suddenly spring from? One possible clue we got in Episode II with the reference to the death and order to build a clone army by jedi master Sifo-Dyas. I thought it would eventually turn out that Sifo-Dyas might be Palpatine himself, but that still begged the question of why the jedi didn't recognize him, as they did Dooku. It's too bad Lucas has not explained this. We get a different clue in Episode III, however, when Palpatine speaks to Anakin about the powerful Darth Plagueis the Wise. Palpatine tells Anakin that Plagueis was killed by his apprentice while he slept, and that the jedi wouldn't tell Anakin this story. The thing about the Sith, however, is that that rarely tell the truth. It's quite possible that Palpatine made up the whole thing simply because he knew Anakin was looking for a way to save Padm

Complete agreement on my part. And it's worth noting that the same was true for Kreia - she was completely linear throughout the game with no choice by the player altering her actions. Obsidian were considering an alternate ending, where Atris would have taken Kreia's place as Darth Traya, but interestingly it was dropped as soon as the deadline was approaching, which only seems to underscore the idea that deep characters are impractical in a CRPG unless their development is fixed and linear and therefore completely predictable to the developers. Something similar can be said for Jolee in KotOR1. You could argue that he was not linear, since he dies in the dark side ending, but the only difference is for Jolee to object wildly to the main character's decision, only to then immediately be killed off by the player and then replaced by another NPC in the group. Jolee had no death scene and his demise had no noticeable influence for the rest of the game - he might just as well have been injured and unavailable in the group, since the only consequence of his death was that you could no longer select him among the NPCs.

LOL :D Yeah, and monkeys might fly out of my... :cool:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, but only one to start a war. Or are you saying that you would not react if someone attacked and repeatedly misrepresented and misquoted you?

I can certainly understand your position and sympathize with it. You're quite right to think that this situation is a sad abuse of these boards. However, I have been attacked on a personal level and someone has lied about what I have said on this board, therefore I will defend myself here. If people had lied about things you said, I should think you would also demand justice. I'm not asking you or anyone else to take sides, though. But I will defend myself and expose Metadigital's lies about me, since doing otherwise would clearly serve only to be taken as consent in the minds of him and others. And I will continues to do so until the moderator steps in.

I can tell already that you possess neither the ability nor the intent to do so. Calling me childish and then making a claim of being diplomatic is, yet again, contradictory to the extreme and can only serve to flame further. How you can even state both in the same sentence and expect to not look like a complete idiot is beyond me, and it certainly speaks volumes about your "intent". No, commenting on something does not mean opposing. In this case you embrace that logic only because that is the only way you can defend your flawed arguments and behaviour. But the fact that I chose to respond can in no way be inferred to mean the exact opposite of your position. Basically you're saying that if I'm not with you, then I'm your enemy, but remember... "only a Sith deals in absolutes"! I hope that brings it down to a level you can comprehend. They do indeed. It's just a shame you didn't bother to read them before you decided to attack me for whatever you wanted. I have snipped them for the same reason - you don't read them anyway, so why bother. Basically you're saying that all my comments are meaningless, but since I arguing, you can just assume that I oppose whatever you happen to be thinking. Need I truly explain how idiotic that position is? Well, I'm not going to bother, since I have little faith it will make a difference... I have never once mentioned any of the games that you list here, and all I said was that the industry now has firm standards on the quality of graphics and sounds. That cannot be inferred to suggest that I place the importance of graphics above plot. I might as well argue that you support abortion or software piracy on the basis that you have never said otherwise. Nonsense. Once again you're taking my comment and assuming whatever you like. What I said is that writing games is costly and takes time today. I don't hear anyone arguing against that. I also said that this put limits on how complex games can be. No one has argued against that. Reason? Because those are facts - you cannot argue against that. That doesn't give you the right to just jump to whatever assumptions you like and then attack me with it. Clearly you are - you assume facts not in evidence and then infer whatever you like and then attack me with it. EDIT: Oh, and you began arguing about me personally instead of arguing the topic - that's the definition of trolling. Yet more evidence of trolling - you admit not having read it and yet you immediately call it a diatribe. Yes, I can see how enlightened and unbiased you truly are... A genuine inspiration to us all

LIAR!!! I challenge you to quote me for *EVER* saying that! The fact that you infer it does not make it so, and you are a liar and a troll for stating it as a fact! I was writing a lengthy response, but I see no point in arguing with LIARS!!!!!! Please step in, moderator, or else you'll be letting Metadigital getting away with claiming that I said things I never did. I flatly deny that I ever said that graphics were more important than innovation. I simply said that that's what most people look at. There are only two possibitilies: Either metadigital cannot see that or he will not that see that. But either way his claims make him a liar, and he is not just misrepresenting me or infering things, he is saying I said things that are simply untrue. He didn't even disagree with me when I said that most players look at graphics first. In my book that makes Metadigital both a hypocrit as well as a liar and a troll! Step in, moderator, or the flamefest is certain!!!

Now you're trolling again. You don't like the movie, so I cannot be allowed to unless I value things that are inferior. You're also misrepresenting me by assuming motives not in evidence, since you completely refuse to acknowledge the reasons I gave for like Reloaded, and it speaks volumes that you conveniently "forgot" to include that in what you decided to quote. What I said was (snipped a bit): What is noteworthy here is comment of "you really were wondering what was going on". Reloaded was filled to the edge with strange clues pointing in all different directions, and when Neo disabled the sentinels, it really sparked question of what was going on - how the heck was he able to do that? It suggested that something else was going on a completely new level that we hadn't seen before. Sadly, however, Revolutions decided to ignore most of those implications - note how Neo never explains why he could that, how he got to the train station, or how he got back into the matrix after that. But the clues were all there in Reloaded, suggesting that Zion was just another matrix to entrap the human mind, if you bother to look for it. You may not have noted it, but that's not my fault, and I'm not about to let you flame me just because I did and liked that. Sure the special effects are nice and impressive, but in the end they will always just be icing on the cake, and if you take away the cake itself, what remains will make you ill... My, how you contradict yourself - first you decry all the little fanboys with me for supporting crappy games, and now you moralize against me for being patronizing for saying it. I guess if having a standard is good, then a double standard is twice as good... "

I like this, but then it does read a lot like the plot suggestions I have posted here before, though I was far more verbose. Never quite finished describing my idea, but I doubt anyone's interest, and it's very long anyway... Besides, I'm scarcely the only one to post ideas along those lines. Personally I'd love to get rid the god-awful leveling system, but I doubt it will happen, since it comes from WOTC's d20 system in the current RPG version. There might be legal reasons that demand a Star Wars RPG to use it, much as I hate it. I'd much rather have something like the GURPS system where you don't have experience levels, but simply earn skill points that you then use to boost your skills, stats, etc. Much more realistic, and it also gets rid of the annoying Guardian/Counselor has this or that color lightsaber or this or that force power, but that that one... Oh, how I hate that! Besides, hit points and experience levels just don't make any sense as they are in the d20 system, but I fear we're stuck with them

I have actually played and finished Grim Fandango, and it never struck me as all that interesting. Sure, it was different and, in its own way, rather original, but I don't think the plot was that interesting or compelling. The same could be said for the Monkey Island games, but at least they were a lot more fun. So no, it does not prove your point. If anything it only underscores the notion that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You seem to deny that, however, and suggest that the quality of Grim Fandango is a fact, and the only way people might disagree with that fact is if they haven't played it. This idea contradicts your point that quality sells - if Grim Fandango is so undeniably brilliant, then - by your logic - it should have been both a cash cow and a classic. Okay, so do people remember it or Monkey Island better? And which of them sold more? It speaks volumes that Monkey Island spawned three sequels (and may spawn more - who knows?), while Grim Fandango spawned none and is largely forgotten. In fact, I'm quite certain most people here will think "Grim what?" This is another example of how beauty is in the eye of the beholder, since I quite honestly thought that Matrix Reloaded was by far the best movie in the trilogy. Yes, Revolutions failed to finish the story properly, and since Reloaded builded toward it, that hurt it as well, but on its own Reloaded is brilliant IMO - I like it far better than the original movie, which was fairly simple in ints setup, whereas by the end of Reloaded, you really were wondering what was going on. Damn shame about Revolutions, which really just spend most of its time trying to explain away the clues given to us in Reloaded. But I digress... To be short, yes, plot is essential. I would much rather play a game with simplistic graphics than one with huge plot holes. I've said before on this board that I'd place solid plot over a new graphics engine for KotOR3 any time, and I stand by that. The problem is, however, that most people don't think the way I do. When they look at a computer game, they look at the surface, and that's graphics and sound, and particularly the former. It's difficult to blame them, though, since what others standard do they have by which to judge the game? After all, if the plot sucks, who's going to tell them? The company certainly won't! You could say that reviewers would, but KotOR2 has made that problem worse, because the plot falls apart completely about 70% into the game, and yet it has received rave reviews by most magazines and their ilk. That leaves gamers to judge the book only by its cover (or the computer game by its shiny graphics, as the case may be...). Besides, who can tell if players are going to enjoy the plot? It's not ideal by any means, no, but it is true, sadly... My point is that although we both seem to not have any particular love for the various EA sports games and their ilk, they're still being produced by the dozens, and they wouldn't be if they didn't also sell. I've seen very few games that had genuine interesting plots. Most CRPGs are really nothing more glorified action adventures (like LAs Monkey Island games), dungeon crawling hack and slash games (like the Diablo games) or a cross between them (like the Baldur's Gate or NWN games). They all have in common that the plots are completely linear and have little or no room for variation. Grim Fandango falls into this category too, since there is only one way to solve it. KotOR does as well, of course, though it at least allows a good or evil ending. The plot remains completely linear and unalterable, though, because that's the only way you can script a game with cutscenes and the like. There really have been no true deviation from that formula since the Fallout games (1 and 2, not Tactics). Games like the Gothic series offers more variety than most, but are still fairly linear and for the same reasons. The Summoner was far more linear, but at least it had excellent plot, though it rehashed the same areas far too often. I miss games like the original Fallout games, but you cannot go back to them without giving up on spoken dialogue and cutscenes, and who can imagine plot-based games without those now? Don't get me wrong, I stil play and enjoy Fallout 2 on occasion (one of the best CRPGs ever), but it is and remains undeniably aged now. To go back to that formula is to allow all information to be text only, and I don't think anyone is going to try it. Fallout 3 has been stop and go, but even if it does come out, it will face the same problem. Hope that gives you some insight into where I'm coming from. If goodwill was rewarded in the gaming world, then things would like very different than they do. Just look at the RPG scene (not the computer games, I mean the old style tabletop RPG) - these days everything adheres to the d20 system that WOTC produces. But that certainly doesn't happen because d20 is the best system. In fact, there have been tons of better systems, only they all go under because they don't have licenses to breathe life into the them (like Star Wars or D&D). Some are just so clever that they won't die, and so the big companies sue them to death like TSR used to do to its competitors in the 80s and 90s. In fact, having played loads of RPG systems, I'd say that d20 is about one of the worst that has been published in the last decade, yet it still survives on the basis of licenses like Star Wars. Most of the better systems go under, though GURPS has managed to stay afloat. That didn't happen because it was best, though, but because it managed to build a loyal fanbase. Now, we could conclude from all this that most gamers are stupid since they don't seem to support good games, but it's probably closer to the truth to say that not everybody shares the priority of content and execution over polish and slickness. Long and deep CRPGs are my cup of tea, but I must accept that most people would much rather play Gran Turismo 53, Quake 21, EA Sports Synchronized Swimming 2113 or Worms 789 than KotOR3 or Fallout 4. I'm in the minority, and I must accept that - anything else is unrealistic. Most people think of computer games as quick and forgettable entertainment, not as compelling and deep stories that requires hours upon hours of dedicated playing time to achieve results. Since they are in the majority, the market will accomodate them first. There are enough of us left to keep the deep CRPGs alive, but we must live with what we get - beggers can't be choosers. If KotOR2 taught us anything, then that was it - the game was unfinished, but we still played it because we had little other choice... You are an apologist for the poor performance of the games industry. A. You are an apologist because you are one who "argues in defense or justification of" the poor quality the games industry. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There is a difference between being an apologist for the state of things and acknowledging the state of things. The market will not and cannot support huge CRPGs these days because they're too expensive to produce compared to what returns can be expected from the limited fanbase. That's not an apology, just a sad fact. And that's why games like Far Cry, Half-Life 2, Doom 3 and the EA sports games you mention don't sell... [insert sarcasm here...] But yes, excellent graphics and good plot might sell, but both costs. You cannot have good graphics without good programmers, and you cannot have good plots without good game designers/stortellers. Both cost money to hire, so which will you hire given that gamers tend to judge games based on the graphics (that's the judge-the-book-by-the-cover thing I mentioned above...) ? I may not like that, but that doesn't make it any less true. You, however, apparently refuse to accept this and instead lays the blame for it at my feet because I try to offer a realistic appraisal of the gaming industry today. If you don't like the state of things, then go and hide from reality if you like, but don't kill me just because you don't like hearing my estimate of the situation. Also, don't make grand statements that are clearly flawed, if you're unwilling to have someone tell you exactly that flaw lies. If I shut up that will just prompt someone else to pierce your flawed impression of things. Someone always does. And pointing fingers at someone just because you don't like the message is flaming because it becomes personal. And since you can expect only a response based on anger in return, it is also trolling. Lucasarts has been around since, what, the mid 80s, while companies like Black Isle or Interplay are no more... As for games, the X-Wing series was brilliant in both plot and execution, but sadly they are gone now... For Star Trek, the Bridge Commander game was brilliant, easily the best Trek game ever (and there were some awful stinkers in there) with excellent plot, yet it was killed shortly after being released, whereas real-time strategy games made ad nauseam still sell through the roof. Sorry, but that argument just doesn't hold water either way. I believe I have already answered that question many times over. If you're still wondering, then you clearly don't read my answers very carefully.

They most certainly weren't all wiped out. True, Naga Sadow's army was annihilated, but his move against the Republic was not supported by all the old Sith, and they were even on the brink of civil war among the Sith when Ludo Kressh opposed his invasion of the Republic. The Republic fleet had followed him back, however, and used the opportunity to destroy the Sith while their fleets fought each other. Empress Teta ordered the Republic fleet back once the Sith fleet was defeated rather than lose more ships, so clearly the Sith worlds themselves were unharmed even if the might of the Sith Empire fell with its fleets. Naga Sadow survived by staging his own apparent death and then fleeing Republic space, where he hid in his temple on Yavin IV. The fleet of Empress Teta also went home, but we know nothing of the fate of Ludo Kressh and the other Sith that were in that final battle. If the survivors of the Sith Empire have been licking their wounds for a thousand years while building their fleets and watching and undermining the Republic by staging the Mandalorian Wars and then the Jedi Civil War, then they do indeed pose a severe threat. And as we know from Palpatine, the Sith can be patient...