Jediphile

Huh? When was that established? We've been nowhere near Coruscant so far, and I'm pretty sure that all we've ever heard of it was when Revan wondered why there was a council on Dantooine instead of Coruscant... At the risk of repeating myself - huh? Revan, yes. Exile, yes. But the Exile's companions? I doubt it. In fact, the end of KotOR2 suggests very clearly that the Exile must take Revan's choice and go into the unknown regions alone and leave his/her friends behind. Kreia even says that he/she cannot bring anyone he/she loves IIRC... Yes, it seems there'll be a new graphics engine from what rumors I've heard too. I don't particularly need one (getting the plot right and actually finishing the game has much higher priority for me), but I scarcely mind a new engine. As for who will be the main character, I think it should be both Revan, the Exile and a new character. You should begin as the new character and then meet the Exile and finally Revan alone the way, and they should all be active members in the group at all times, or else the game should split the protagonists into groups with each of the main characters in each of three groups, and each group then take their turn to play their part in the plot like the Freedon Nadd temple vs. Onderon civil war split in KotOR2.

Updating the video drivers seem to cause the problem rather than solve it, or so I hear. I have a Radeon 9800 pro card myself, but my main problem was with the grasslands on Dantooine, which slowed my game to the point of unplayability. Smoke also caused the game to slow, but nowhere nearly as much. Fortunately the solution is not so complex. Just open the swkotor2.ini file in notepad and add the line "Disable Vertex Buffer Objects=1" to the graphics options (just before the game options). Not sure if it works for anyone else, but it certainly made Dantooine playable for me. The graphics could still slow at times, but only to the point where I noticed it. Not sure why, but it worked like a charm for me.

Well, if your players have only played D&D before, then I find it best to throw some simple monster at them and have them all die trying to kill it... Sounds nasty, yes, but D&D-only players have a tendency to think mostly in hack n slash terms (kill the monsters and only think of what to do if everything else fails). A friend of mine once did this very thing (run a trial Cthulhu game for all D&D players). Now, this was 5th edition Cthulhu well before the d20/D&D Cthulhu, so the rules were much tougher and merciless than they are now. It was one of the classic adventures, where the investigators had to find and destroy just a single zombie. The players spent a lot of time roaming the house in search of their cannon fodder. When they failed, they eventually bought petroleum to burn it out, which led to them burning down about half of 1920 Boston.... " Now, that's not to diss on D&D players. I play D&D myself, but people who only play and only enjoy dungeon crawls and hack n slash really shouldn't play Cthulhu, because it's just not about making maps and killing monsters. In Cthulhu it's all about finding out what's going on and sacrificing your life (and your sanity!) to serve the greater good by stopping the ancient evils. And basically the characters are screwed either way, because there is no hope of matching the powers of the villains. This is the game where people happily cast the spell that summons Cthulhu (if they have it) full well knowing that they will themselves be killed by doing so, and yet they do it because it's the only way to stop the cultists from destroying the world... Players who don't get that or don't like that (which is fair enough - to each his own) should stay clear. That's not saying D&D players couldn't grow to like Cthulhu, though. After all, I played only D&D myself for many years before trying Cthulhu, and I like Cthulhu much better than D&D today. I'd suggest you let the players read a bit of Lovecraft's works. The game is named "Call of Cthulhu" for a reason, and reading the short story of same name should give people insight on whether it will appeal to them or not (even though that does reveal the existence of the Necronomicon...)

This thread goes a long way toward explaining why I hate alignments... I'm the GM of an AD&D 2e campaign, and I've banned alignments! Choosing an alignment is actually *verboten* for a player! Instead I will assign one as GM if and when I find it appropriate. Why? Because what a particular alignment means depends entirely on who you ask. Ask any player (or GM) about any alignment, and you get a different answer from everyone. With nine alignments, this means a group of four players and a GM will have five different interpretations of any one alignment for a total of 45, and that's way too many. I once had a player wanting to play neutral evil simply because he thought it was the alignment what would least limit his moral and ethical choices in the game. Think of that what you like, but it does show that players find alignments restrictive. I don't think so myself - alignments are descriptions, not straight-jackets, so neutral evil is just as "restrictive" as lawful good (remember, though paladins must be lawful good, that doesn't mean all lawful good characters must have a paladin's ethos - those restrictions on the paladin are found in the description of the class, not under the alignment description of lawful good). But most players don't see it that way, which causes no end of problems. Most other games but D&D have no alignments and still have no problems as a consequence - everybody understands that torturing a prisoner for information or selling people into slavery are not benevolent things to do... So I banned them and the game runs much smoother as a consequence - no player arguments about alignments being restrictive. And if you have any doubt about alignments causing more problems than they solve, just read this entire topic... The defense rests

Well, yes and no... We used to use them a lot more than a decade ago, both to represent combat and to help as a visual aid for our imaginations for our characters. However, for the last several years, we've only used them occassionally, and then only because we have them. In most gaming session we never use them. After all, we might as well since we have them, but we scarcely have a need for it. As GM I frequently find it too time-consuming in an already lengthy combat situation to also have to move little figures around, especially if there is a large number of enemies, who will swarm the PCs in any event...

Yes, but KotOR3 won't be a game about the Mandalorians struggle to prepare for the coming war - it will be a game about the struggles of the remaining jedi to find Revan, confront the true Sith, and save the Republic. All of the preparations of Mandalore/Canderous can be easily established in a few conversations and cutscenes. There just doesn't seem to be any need to have jedi go to the Mandalorian homeworld to help with this. Besides, you said yourself that Mandalore shouldn't be a group member this time around, because he would be too busy preparing his people for war to hang around the Ebon Hawk. How does that add up? It would be far more impressive to me to have the protagonists of the new game finallly find Revan and bring him/her back to a Republic driven to to the brink of disaster and then have Mandalore casually turn up and say, "Good to see you again, Revan. The Mandalorians are ready to follow your commands!"

I see what you mean, but I don't think the way is was done was what hurt the story. The missing content - particularly closure - is what hurt the story. As far as I'm concerned, the real problem with Nihilus wasn't that we met him too early in the plot, but rather than he was such a damn pushover. I mean, a couple of swipes from your lightsabers and down he goes... And this is the guy who eats planets and jedi gatherings for breakfast? Sure, there is a good reason why he cannot hurt the Exile, but I still don't think the fight should have been quite *that* easy... But either way, the plot point about Nihilus is that he is so powerful, but suddenly he cringes and falls over when he tries to "eat" the Exile. Why? Why is the Exile so special? Well, that's the mystery, and you don't get the answer until Kreia tells you at the very end. Plotwise it all hangs together nicely. You don't go to Malachor V to kill the game's greatest baddies, you go there to resolve Kreia's treachery and learn the final answers to all the open questions *after* you've killed the big boss of the game. But I'll grant you that the major boss was a let-down and that it all could (and should) have been told better. For example, it should have suddenly been a problem that you actually don't face Nihilus alone, since he would just continue to suck power from your companions. But alas, LA has spoken..

Some of us are old enough to have done just that, and I dare say Empire was and remains an underestimated success in that category - it is my favorite Star Wars movie. KotOR2, however, is similar to what Empire would have been after you see you see Luke escape Vader, the Millennium Falcon picks him up and then promptly jumps to hyperspace without the Empire interfering, then fade to black and end titles. There is no comparison. Empire had the Falcon struggle to escape Vader while letting Luke and Vader struggle with their relationship through the force, and after the Falcon escapes, we still get closure to that part of the chapter with Lando and Chewie going off to track Han, Luke staying to continue learning while recovering in time for the next round we know will be coming sometime, somewhere... It's an unfinished story, but it has closure internally, since you know where the characters and the plots are left off. I didn't leave the theatre feeling cheating out of an ending - I left with suspenseful impatience at what would happen next. KotOR2, however, just skips straight to the end titles. Like I said, there is no comparison.

It is ambiguous, which is probably intentional. After all, it could refer to both of the options you mention (the fall of the republic or the last stand of the republic), or it could refer to the last jedi knights left to defend the republic against the true Sith. Personally I find that ambiguity in a title is a cool thing. Just think of "Attack of the Clones" - that certainly had a bit of a twist as to how the whole thing turned out

Actually, I was sort of planning to have Nihilus back... or not, dending on how you look at it. Point is, I just thought Nihilus had way too much potential to be killed off as he was in KotOR2. Not that I'm saying Nihilus will be miraculously resurrected as in some crappy D&D game. No, it will make a lot of sense. I actually replayed the confrontation with Nihilus yesterday and realized there were some details in there that would indeed speak in favor of a return for Nihilus... of sorts.

My only trouble is that trying to recruit the Mandalorians to join the war against the Sith is a bit like preaching to the choir - Revan already won Canderous over and made him his loyal follower in the first game. If Revan say "come", then Mandalore and his armies will follow, even over a cliff, so there doesn't seem to be much need to deal with the Mandalorians in KotOR3, because once the war begins, we know they stand with Revan no matter what - it has already been firmly established. Yes, the Mandalorians will undoubtedly be heavily involved in the final confrontations, but there is little reason to see them until them, and I doubt KotOR3 will just be one long battlescene. The KotOR games have been strongly driven by plot and character depth, so the third game is almost certainly going to be so as well. I don't see the actual war with the true Sith beginning until the final act of the game (equal to finding the Star Forge system in the first game or returning to Dantooine to meet the council in the second), though I do expect that final act to be longer this time.

I agree, but that just makes it sound stranger to me that you want the characters to go to Mandalore in KotOR3.

Going to Mandalore is fine if there is hard plot reasons for it. It is not if going there is simply because the Mandalorians "are cool and kick rear". Plot over coolness factors. Always. Well, they were there before. I guess reasoning behind was that Mandalore just went there to find the remnants of the troops stranded there at the end of the Sith War and their offspring. Except for the time stretch, it didn't seem that far-fetched to me. Besides, the Mandalorians are conquerors - they don't conquer much by sitting around on the homeworld just feeling content and good about themselves... Sorry, but I don't see much plot in that. Nar Shaddaa will always be a place where things go to get lost. I like to stay clear of Yavin IV since so much stuff has been taking place there. And it could mess with continuity if you go there, since Exar Kun's spirit is supposed to remain more or less undisturbed for millennia. What does Yavin IV have to offer that we haven't seen before? Pardon me, but so what? It's not as if them being mentioned in the comic books means that those worlds are suddenly obsolete. Besides, not much happened there in the first place, so I don't agree that they had much purpose in the past. Not to mention, those references are all more than a thousand years into the past at the time of KotOR3, so who's to say what's on those worlds now? Which Sith worlds would you suggest? It's a dead world in 4000 years, yes, which is precisely why it is convenient to have it populated during this time only to kill it off just as Katarr was. It's a known world, and it won't mess with continuity. I'm not saying Vjun should be in the game, just that it should be a place the protagonists learn has suddenly been drained of all life.

The Mandalorians will indeed be essential IMHO. As I see it, they will form the core of the army Revan has planned to stand against the True Sith. But while I see them as important for that reason, I'm less certain that we actually need to see their homeworld for that. I mean, for us to see their homeworld, there would need to be some conflicts for such there for the player to solve, and I don't think Canderous/Mandalore will allow dissent in his home - the Mandalore keeps his people are far too disciplined for that. Not that it wouldn't have its charm to see their world, though... True, but I included Kashyyyk because I have this idea of Zaalbar and Hanharr having a fight for leadership of a tribe. We don't know which tribe Hanharr came from, but it could be cool if he was an outcast from Zaalbar's tribe, in which case there is an obvious light/dark choice for how it plays out. Yes, I know Mira mentions how he killed his entire tribe, but she also said it was just a rumor. I find it just as likely that he killed several wookies and was then banished the shadowlands. If Hanharr came from Zaalbar's tribe, I think it really has potential for both an evil and good ending. For example, if Hanharr kills Zaalbar's father, you can help him kill the dissenters among the wookies for the dark side choice, or you can bring back Zaalbar to confront him and take control of the tribe for the light side choice. But either way, you get to add wookies loyal to your cause, who can supplement the army defending the Republic against the Sith. We always hear about how tough the wookies are, so let's see finally see their fury in battle. The idea of watching angry wookies tearing Sith troopers apart really sounds appealing to me. Why not? I'm not suggesting that Nar Shaada is where the final confrontation takes place, after all. But it could be a good place to stage a few events and drop some clues for the overall plot. I also think it might be a good place to let Jolee lurk about if Revan is set to light side. He'd help the poor while remaining in the shadows out of attention, just as he did on Kashyyyk. Korriban is a known world, yes, but I think the others are generally unknown to the Republic. I know Empress Teta followed Naga Sadow back the Sith Empire in the comic books, but that doesn't mean they're all known. Given that Korriban and Malachor V are both described as being on the outskirts of the ancient Sith Empire by Kreia in KotOR2, it would seem that at least Ch'hodos, Khar Delba, and Ziost are still fairly unknown. I mean, Ziost is established as the central world of the Sith, where the dark lord rules, so it's scarcely just some forgettable planet in the Sith Empire. And Khar Shian, the moon of Khar Delba, was Naga Sadow's secret base, so it would also be fairly well hidden from Republic eyes. Hmm, that said, I'd also like to see Vjun seveal millennia before Vader builds his castle there. Not sure if that is anywhere close to the Sith Empire, though...

Not quite sure about Mandalore, but I completely agree with regards to Coruscant and Alderaan. I do wonder why we haven't seen Coruscant yet. There could be legal reasons for it. After all, I hear Bastila's position was originally planned to go to Nomi Sunrider herself, only the idea was banned for some reason (possibly due to rights of creative ownership - note how everything written about Nomi is written by Tom Veitch and/or Kevin J. Anderson). Not that I mind that so much. Bastila is a good character and Bioware did the right thing - they made the limitation a strength. But we might not have seen Coruscant for similar reasons, in which case we won't in KotOR3 either... Anyone know? Anyway, my preferred list of featured planets include: Coruscant (beginning and finale) Alderaan Myrkr Nar Shaada Kashyyyk These are the initial worlds, but we also need some Sith worlds. Among those I could see: Ch'hodos or perhaps Korriban Khar Shian (moon of Khar Delba) Ziost I still think Korriban has some secrets left, but I *really* don't want to see the Shyrack caves or the Sith academy again - just the Valley of the Sith Lords and some new unexplored areas of the tombs or so. Khar Shian might be the place to find Revan again, since he/she would have gone there to explore some of Naga Sadow's secret Sith magics. Most likely Revan will have reverted to the dark side again, but then that's appropriate - sacrifice for the greater good has always been Revan's strength. And since the enemy will be the true Sith, Ziost is just a no-brainer - we simply *must* go to Ziost!! EDIT: Oh, I forgot about Myrkr. The planet is known at this time, but since Ossus was lost, I guess the jedi have forgotten for a while. I include it because it could be so cool to have the group set down on a world unsuspecting and - poof - hey, where did my force powers go!?! Also, Myrkr ties in nicely with a potential ending I'd really like to see...

Well, you don't always level up or accumulate xp in PnP. I run an AD&D campaign myself, but I grant xp on the basis of good role-playing alone, so killing any number of monsters or enemies won't matter in the slightest - I won't award xp for it. Period. I will award xp for good decisions in the game, though. For example, if you've freed the peasant's daughter (no reward - peasants have no money) from an orc camp and the orcs discover you as you sneak out, then you could fight the orcs or you could run. Lots of players would fight since they gain xp that way, but doing so, you would endanger the life of the group and the peasant's daughter. If she is indeed killed, then I'll guarantee you that you'll suffer heavy xp penalties for it, and even if she doesn't you still will in my game, since it was just a really stupid thing to do. I don't care if your 14th level paladin can carve up 50+ orcs in short order - the decision is just stupid by an sort of common sense, so you will be penalized for making it. Rushing to the aid as the orcs prepare to sacrifice her to their evil god or some such is a completely different story, however. Still, it depends entirely on what sort of game you enjoy. Some people enjoy killing monsters and collecting treasure. This is known as Hack 'n Slash. Others like exploring dungeons and making maps while doing so. Such games are called Dungeon Crawls. But I like neither of those much, so I stay clear of them. PnP games don't often have sidequests because they tend to stop being sidequests and becoming real quests when the players focus on them. If players make a big issue out of something the GM thought was a footnote, then the GM will often put far more attention on it on the fly. I know I have in many situations. This is not possible in CRPGs, however, because the programmers don't know who will be playing the game or what sort of choices they will make, so they have to allow for all the possibilities in advance, and unlike the GM they cannot spontaneously add to a sideplot in an instant if the situation calls for it.

If you can find it cheap, The Summoner might not be so bad. The first game, I mean. I haven't played the sequel. Sure, it's ancient and the graphics aren't exactly perfect, but it's story is very deep and interesting IMHO. Oh, and the character development system is much better than KotOR's annoying d20 stuff. Not perfect, but better. For example, I like the defense choice between the skills Parry/Counterattack and Dodge. Dodge lets you simply evade attacks and is easier to build, but Parry allows you to both dodge the attack and use it to open the opponents the defense and then make an additional attack with your Counterattack skill. That's the sort of tactical considerations that are sorely lacking in the d20/KotOR system... Still, I'll admit that the chained attacks of The Summoner do indeed suck Fortunately they can be completely ignored.

They are both decent games, but while KotOR2 has some better implemented features (prestige classes, high level cap, weapon switch, influence system, etc.), I still find KotOR1 to be better because the story was deeper. Sure, KotOR2 has a great story, but the point is we didn't get to see it - LA had it cut. So loss for KotOR2 there As for the better rules in KotOR2, they don't matter much next to the lack of plot and story depth. It helps, but since KotOR games uses d20 as a basis, the rules will always be something I endure rather than enjoy, since I think d20 rules are horrible - I'll never play a KotOR game for that reason, so it becomes rather moot that KotOR2 implements more classes and features of d20 than KotOR1 did. At least to me.

Well, not that I don't have ideas for plot, but I'll wait with those, since this would otherwise be an incredibly long post. Instead I'll just give a list of things that I think need to be fixed in KotOR3 when compared to KotOR2. 1. When the characters aren't actually using their weapons, have them put them away - I know KotOR2 is a recycled graphics engine, but if I see one more clipping error with a characters vibroblade/whatever sticking through another peaceful groupmember or a wall, or another character sitting on a chair operating imaginary controls or computer keyboards (like Atton on the Ebon Hawk), I swear I'll scream with frustration!!! Nothing is worse than watching Kreia or whomever pierce her vibroblade straight through the pilot's seat or T3 during a cutscene without any effect whatsoever It doesn't even take that much to get rid of - just have the characters holster their guns, put their lightsabers on their belts, put the blade back in the sheath across the back, etc. when they finish a fight. That's it - problem solved. 2. Make a note of how someone must stay and guard the ship (Ebon Hawk?) and so cannot join the rest of the characters, a bit like how Atton was unavailable in the group when the Ebon Hawk crashlanded on Dxun in KotOR2 - the ship has now been stolen several times (by Revan in KotOR1 and by Handmaiden in KotOR2), and has apparently been stolen many times in its past, so I'd say someone should be tied to the ship at all times to guard it from thieves. This would be a good reason to increase your group of available companions, since you need at least one more than you can have in the active group in order to take a full group on planet exploration. Heck, even Obi-Wan was left to guard a ship in the middle of nowhere while Qui-Gon and Padme explored Tatooine... 3. New faces. Include the old faces from KotOR1+2 *only* during a session where you pick the look of Revan and the Exile during the game - they had those faces in our games, after all, so they should continue to, but create all new faces to choose from in character creation so that the new main character will have no chance to look like any of our previous protagonists. 4. Cut down on the equipment graphics. I don't mind that some headgear looks a bit like a pair of sunglasses, but most of that stuff (particularly the headgear) should be barely noticeable at all - we've never seen a Star Wars character wear any of this stuff in a movie, so it should be very limited. I also dislike that ugly muffets-with-large-red-glass-thing-across-my-eyes thing that you sometimes find - it looks far too much like something Geordi would wear in Star Trek: The Next Generation, so get rid of it. Time has passed and that headgear is obsolete and has been replaced by a new model (same stats, but no more than a handband or so now). 5. Concerning graphics, I'm actually not too disappointed with what we have now. There's room for improvement, and I'd like a bit more polish, but I don't really need the graphics to be up to the standards of Far Cry or Half-Life II or even Max Payne II. Still, Obsidian seems to be committed to a new graphics engine. Fine, great - but I'd prefer perfect lip-sync'ing and getting rid of those annoying clippling errors mentioned above to more detailed faces. Better graphics are cool, but it doesn't need to be a top priority. A few more shades to give a darker and more moody impression would be nice though, particularly in cutscenes with the Sith - everything seems be right in the spotlight in KotOR games so far, and a some more gloomy shadows could go a long way to add to the somber atmosphere of the dark side I think. 6. Many of the spaceships seem far too 'advanced' to be almost 4000 years older than the Millennium Falcon. No, we can't change the appearance of the Ebon Hawk, but at least let us see a couple of ships that really reflect the age of the setting. I mean, take a look at the panels of the Sith attack on Coruscant in the Sith War comic books and then try to tell me that the ships of KotOR are only 40-50 years after that? It's a pretty hard sell given that the Sith undoubtedly used the best ships they could find. I'd say establish that the Ebon Hawk is a rather new ship and that this the reason it keeps getting stolen (everybody wants the new, shiny ship). The same should be established for the republic ships (like the Endar Spire or the Harbinger), then let us see what some of the ancient ships of the age really look like. I don't want something from the comic books (some of those really are ugly), but at least let them reflect the age. 7. More progressive companion interaction. Conversation with your NPCs in KotOR2 was rather frustrating at times. They all talked for hours the first time, but then they had very little or nothing to say after a few dedicated conversations, except for Kreia who just couldn't shut up no matter what you did. I took a long talk with Visas early on because she was just so interesting, but after that exceedingly long and thorough conversation, going back to her was just annoying because she never had anything new to say. In KotOR1 the NPCs had separate quests or at least would offer information on the world you were currently on. I'm not saying that I want character-quests back, but at least give some variation to the NPCs depending on where the group has gone to... 8. Many seem to talk about lightsaber hilts, so I'll just voice my opinion on it, which is that while it might be nice enough, I really don't care much about it at all... For I'll I care they should feel free to to add them or not as they please, since it will make little or no difference to me. 9. For Pete's sake fix the holovids! I realize that holograms are supposed to be translucent/ghostly images you can see through of the person recorded, but it's very unsettling that I can see all of Bastila's teeth and generally the polygons from inside her head through her. Seeing through the image is fine, but seeing the character as having no substance is inexcusable! 10. I don't mind random loot per se, but it should be a lot less random than in KotOR2. A game is not balanced if you can find truly great stuff from random rolls in one game and only mediocre stuff in the next. Have the game catalogue how much uncommon/rare/whatever stuff you find and then modify the chances of finding more later based on that. Also, as other have said before, make the unique stuff unique - it's no good finding 10 x Exar Kun's warsuit or whatever, because there should be only one. If the character find it, have the game flag it for that game, so that it cannot be found by random again. If it's rolled again on the random loot table, then it should be automatically substituted for another unique item. 11. Tie the number of companions a character can have to his light side points. Dark siders don't make friends - they treat people like dirt and sacrifice them whenever convenient, so nobody trusts them. Some characters might follow such a person, because they think they are going places and they are content to be underling #6 rather than their current position. Fine, in KotOR2 characters like HK-47, Hanharr, or G0-T0 might side with such characters, while Visas and Kreia might ally in respect of the character's power, but none of the others should. Also, companions of dark siders are generally opportunists and generally cannot be trusted. The games have so far offered potential companions on the basis of friendship and admiration toward the main character. That does not fit well with dark siders, who should instead have ability to charm beasts and then perform a ritual to make them his or her underling or slave. Such beasts will serve loyally, but will be dead if defeated in combat, and of course they cannot learn skills or advance in levels. Potential companions for evil characters might include a trandoshan or a gamorran. Mandalore would join either side - he knows strength when he sees it. I'll make some suggestions on plot at some other time. Comments anyone?

Novels: Not sure. I liked the Thrawn trilogy, though I thought there was room for improvement. The New Jedi Order stuff are okay. Comics: Dark Empire I and II. Sadly Empire's End was too short and hurt the series with it's rushed finale. Sort of a bit like KotOR2

Yes, but note that this is exactly what she said - her enemies. We learn those included the Sith (which may be presumed to be Sion and Nihilus) and the Dantooine Jedi council (Dorak, Kavar, Zez-Kai-Ell). Kreia did *NOT* however say that it included any and all Jedi!! You seem to be proceeding on the basis that she did mean that, but there is no basis for that conclusion - it is unsupported by the events of KotOR2, so whoever writes the plot for KotOR3 can presume pretty much whatever he or she wants to. Sure, Kreia wanted the jedi council dead, but that doesn't matter since she's already killed them. Therefore it is a non-factor in the continuing plot. I strikes me as rather odd that you first state correctly that endings of KotOR2 cannot be presumed to have taken place and then proceed to automatically presume the opposite. No, those events need not have taken place, but they can have - it depends completely on whatever the writers of the next chapter prefer. Indeed, having them not be jedi would be the greater sin, because meeting a non-jedi Atton after you made him into a jedi in the last game will have people protesting, while meeting a jedi Atton after you decided not to train can be simply overruled with a comment saying that "oh, but Visas trained him after the events of the last game" or similar. If they prefer to have all the KotOR2 companions be jedi now, then they can do that, even if they were never trained by the Exile - they can just assume that Mira, Atton, Bao-Dur, Handmaiden/Disciple were either trained by the Exile before he/she left for the unknown reasons or else that they were trained afterwards by Visas. Poof - instant multiple jedi. Besides, we *know* that the companions have the potential because you could indeed train them. I dare say that if the KotOR2 companions make any sort of appearance in KotOR3, then it's more likely to be as jedi than anything else, since they can either have been trained by the Exile in the last game or by Visas after that. That covers more possibilities than the scenario you seem to suggest. You might not like it, but there is no doubt it covers more potentiality. Also, when you reject the mere possibilty of any sort of council, I think you're overinterpreting the ending of KotOR2 to unfounded extremes. If KotOR3 is set, say, 10 years after KotOR2, then surely there will be a council in some form. I would agree that we cannot assume much of anything in KotOR3, though, but then that's just the point - since we just don't know, your presumption of there being no council is just as unfounded as anything else. I also think a lot of this discussion has overlooked the students. A lot of masters and padawans may have died on Katarr, but I dare say they would not have brought the students - the young children still learning the basics of the force - to a meeting where the decision to fight the Sith is being decided. It is far more likely that those young students stayed home on Coruscant with their teachers and continued their training. Those students could certainly form the foundation of a new emerging jedi order. Indeed, I have this feeling that KotOR3 is set a few years after KotOR2 and that the new main character is one of these young students becoming a padawn learner during the beginning of the game. I could see the genders and alignments of both Revan and the Exile being set by the student taking lessons in jedi history early in the game under Brianna...

Well, I completely agree with your reasoning, but I doubt it's going to happen. Star Wars RPGs are stuck in d20 rules by virtue of business deals between Lucasarts and Wizards of the Coast (who publish the tabletop RPG), so that's probably that. Indeed, it might even be that the finesse feats were forcibly introduced in KotOR2 despite excelling with their absense in KotOR1 because their removal was a potential infraction of the d20 rules. I should hasten to say that I don't know that all, but it is possible. In fact, the whole Two-handed/Double-bladed vs. Single-handed weapon thing needs a major overhaul. It's a popular myth to think that having a second weapon in your "off" hand (or a double-weapon utilizing both) will allow you more attacks, but anyone who has bothered to simply watch the Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul fight in Episode I know it's just a myth. Yes, using double/multiple weapons have advantages, but they sure don't double your attack rate - anyone thinking it would should try making a few mock attacks with wooden swords or similar, because they'll find that it's actually really hard to coordinate those attacks without the swords hitting each other, let alone accidentally striking yourself (which is ill adviced with a lightsaber...). As you might figure from my reply, I don't like the d20 system much. In fact, I outright hate it - worst thing to happen to RPGs in a decade IMO I'd take WEG's Star Wars system any day of the week over WOTC's forced and inflexible classes and levels, or even better a Star Wars system based on the GURPS rules. But... it's not going to happen. I play KotOR games because I like the drama and character depth. I *don't* play because of the d20 rules! I play in *spite* of the d20 rules! I don't enjoy the d20 rules so much as I endure them... and it's not always easy

Yes, I know what you mean. I was a lightsider too and had a good deal of trouble with him. Even after "cheating" by reading the Influence guide, I had to take so many dark side points to gain full influence with HK-47 that I was never able to regain my Light Side Mastery status. If I replay the game, I'll make a note of going to Dantooine from Telos, but only completing the Jedi Enclave bit before immediately heading on to Nar Shaada, so I can get HK-47 in the group as soon as possible. IIRC there are few not so LS-devastating influence gains for him on Dantooine, and I'm betting that taking them so soon will mean that you can regain your Light Side Mastery again before the game ends (and I seem to recall someone mentioning that he gains influence if you show pity on the thieving rodian on Dantooine even though his comments suggests otherwise). Haven't tried it, though...

And I'm still not convinced that he was weakened in any way. He just tried to drain you dry... and failed because there was nothing to drain. Nothing more. That gave the PC a chance to fight him, but it doesn't mean that Nihilus should be absolutely incompetent with a lightsaber or the only Sith Lord that can't spam Force Lightning. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Precisely. Also, while Nihilus would be unable to drain the Exile, nothing prevents him from draining Visas or Mandalore... or even his own crew. I'd like to see the cutscene and then immediately upon ending him let him use the Master Drain Force power on pretty much everyone but the Exile to replenish the power he lost by trying to drain the Exile. And then you begin the combat round! Come to think of it, Visas and Mandalore should be notably weaker in those fights anyway, as they have long been drained by the Exile without knowing, particularly Visas... Anyway, I was also wondering if the restored content will affect how things turn out with Atris. We know that there are some sound-bits for her replacing Kreia during the final game, but it may not be possible to restore her as the potential Darth Traya if there are too few. I think the idea of letting her take that position dropped during production rather than cut along with other content toward the end. The restoration team might know this better than me... (An evil Atris could be cool, though...) However, there was also an idea to let Atris become a group member toward the end of the game IIRC, which seems more likely to restore for me. I'd like that option, though it might be rather redundant. I mean, Visas and Mandalore will still be forced companions on the Ravager, and no companions are allowed on Malachor 5, which means you'd get to use Atris only during the attack on Citadel Station... But I'd actually prefer that option to just letting her sit on Telos with a thumb up her nose while the planet is under attack. That just seems so... silly. Another thing I've noticed in the sound files for the return to Telos and the confrontation with Atris are some comments by the Handmaiden about how it is possible to defeat an opponent without killing him or her. I assume this was to be an option for fighting the handmaiden sisters without killing them that was never implemented. Given that you never fight the sisters in the game, we can't know whether these were comments the Handmaiden made to the Exile or thought to herself, but I tend to presume the latter given that she is referred to as a "slayer of her own kin" in some of the similarly cut sound files when the companions confront Darth Traya. Has the restoration team made any decisions on these issues?

What would we argue about if we did get a clear answer? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah exactly... Besides, we all know that Arren Kae wasn't revived as Kreia but as Darth Nihilus...