Jediphile

The Storyteller system was never intended to be a general RPG system, but was made spefically for White Wolf's own campaigns. GURPS, however, was intended from its inception to be a generic system, and WotC has declared that they have the same intent for d20 and even to smother most of the competition, if not all.

Perhaps, but unlikely. Don't forget that White Wolf supported d20 and did Ravenloft under d20 rules. So it would depend entirely on whether Steve Jackson games would do so under the OGL/d20 structure and support d20 by doing it with d20 rules. I sincerely doubt that, since Steve Jackson games would then be supporting d20, an RPG that they don't own and which belongs to a competitor, instead of their own GURPS. They might do it, if they get to do it under GURPS, but then I it even more unlikely that WotC would allow one of their settings to support a competing RPG system, especially after stating their intention to make d20 the industry-wide standard and kill off as many competing RPG systems as possible.

While my Mystara D&D campaign is winding down, I'm considered what to throw myself at next. I have several idea, of course, including running some classic Call of Cthulhu (5th edition - never d20!) modules, but I'm also thinking about a Star Wars campaign set at an undescribed time or a Matrix game set before the first film. However, I know of no Matrix rules and I hate the d20 Star Wars stuff, so I'd want to run those with GURPS rules. To that end I wonder if anyone here has tried that or know of others who have done so, and what experiences they had with it. And, of course, I'd appreciate any links I could get for sites dealing with either subject.

Well me of course, but you knew that.

Well, though that is a bit of a cop-out, the simplest explanation would be say that the Thanatos or Ranivorus told them. That could be expanded on, though. For example, the evil immortals might pose as wise scholars prompting the Nithians to explore magic and giving them hints about powerful magic on Athas (the Dark Sun world). Though nobody can reach Athas, that could get the wizards to explore this with spells that grant them insight, such as Contact Other Plane or Legend Lore or similar. With that knowledge they can then begin exploring the basics of defiling and, with two immortals subtly pointing in the right direction, learn it in record time. That way it would be a "true" discovery by mortals, which the evil immortals did not cause directly.

Anyway, as much as I like Mystara, it's not without its own flaws. It's pretty ridiculous, for example, to have Egypt/Arabian-inspired Ylaruam with its large deserts separated from the norse/viking nations of the Northern Reaches to the north only by a few miles of mountains. Ylaruam just doesn't fit into the geographical atlas of the Known World region at all and should never have been placed where it is. They've tried to explain that away with excuses of how this was the will of the Immortals and background story. Some that is very good and interesing, since it forms the basis of Nithia, but it's still just an excuse. Fans have argued that Ylaruam is a dry desert because Alfheim, the magical forests of the elves, simply drain away all the water that would otherwise have gone to Ylaruam. Also a good but utterly convenient explanation. Since I play 2e Player Option rules, I even made my own excuse, which ties with the corruption of the Nithians (who were like the ancient egyptians). According to canon, Nithia was corrupted by the evil immortals Thanatos and Ranivorus and began embracing 'forbidden' practices. Eventually the other immortals intervened and destroyed the corrupted Nithians, though they saved a few uncorrupted ones and placed them in the HW. What the Nithians did that was so wrong has never been described in any particular detail, at least not that I have read, so I used or at least added to that. In my campaign I like using the magic systems presented in the Player Option: Spells & Magic book, but I could never decide on one and so ended up with a compromise between all of them. One system is that of preserving/defiling, which is similar to that of the Dark Sun campaign. In Dark Sun you have two types of spellusers - preservers and defilers. The idea is that magic is really just lifeforce (think the Force of Star Wars and you get the idea), and that to use magic is to drain lifeforce for your own benefits. You can either do this carefully, thereby leaving life around you unharmed, or you can drain it indiscriminately from your surroundings, thereby killing less powerful life to power your spells. The former is called preserving and the latter defiling. Preservers use magic pretty much the usual way in D&D, but defilers kill plant life and lesser beings around them. Really powerful defilers can kill truly powerful beings with their power and even direct - draining all life from a huge red dragon is possible for a defiler archmage, if he needs to power a spell quickly. The Dark Sun campaign's world, Athas, is basically one huge desert drained of most life, due to huge wars between the defiling wizards over time. The world is rules by sorceror kings, who are basically the most powerful preservers and, especially, defilers in existence. But as a consequence, there are no trees, little livestock, minerals and so forth on Athas. Most weapons and armor are made from bones, for example. Now, I didn't want to go that far, but I did like the defiling idea in my campaign, so for Nithia it was easy to introduce the idea that they had simply embraced defiling and so drained their nation of all life and turning it into the huge desert it is in the gazetteer era. The immortals wouldn't have this power run free, however, and destroyed the defiling Nithians. This works will with the campaign, since the immortals actively prevent discovery of Nithia's fate. It is generally unknown that Nithia ever existed. An uncorrupted colony elsewhere called Thothia survived, but the immortals altered the memories of all mortals to think that they were never tied to the Nithians and then made them a part of the Alphatian empire. Clues to Nithia's existence may yet be found in the sands of Ylaruam, but the immortals also created a magical item in the area that cause all who travel there to forget all about Nithia. This item is call the Bead of Oblivion or simply the Spell of Oblivion. But it does tie the nature of defiling nicely into Mystara's background, I think. It's one of those little secrets I leave for my players to discover one day if they explore the matter. They're not going to like having their memories wiped when going close to the place in question in Ylaruam, but then you can't win them all...

Of course. Who has argued otherwise? Sorry, but I think I'm missing your point there...

Oh, it's not the setting. Fate of Istus (which is Greyhawk just as Temple of Elemental Evil is) would also be much better. It's a not a question of "my favorite campaign is better" but simply that the adventures in question is better quality, because they have deep role-playing and good story and plot *as well* as the mandatory monster-slashing and dungeon-crawling.

I still feel that it would have been more interesting if they had let the events of Episode I take place on Alderaan instead of Naboo. I really wanted to see it in the trilogy, yet all we see is a short part of the ending in Episode III - what a letdown. Oh, wait that is support for Alderaan in KotOR3 since it's in Episode III - I change my position then... :D

How come? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Because TOEE (Temple of Elemental Evil) is really just a glorified dungeon-crawl, while B10 and X10 both have potential for genuine plot-building and deep role-playing as well as the mandatory monster-slashing and spelunking.

Oh.. you mean the FR Goddess of Magic.. Mystra? I don't care much for her either, but I do love MystAra. :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, the naming of Mystara is unfortunate. They chose it because it was a combination of the term "mystery star" that they liked, but I think they should have chosen somthing else, since it is much too similar to Mystra, the goddess of magic in the Forgotten Realms, who was already well established at the time.

Yes, I know it. We used to have it my old D&D of 15 or so years past, but I hadn't seen it for a long time until recently, so it was sadly lacking in my campaign during WotI events. It is set some 200 years into the future because TSR didn't want to mess around with the Known World continuity at the time, though it was originally intended to take place aournd AC 1000 (which is the year when all the gazetteers are set). When WotI came out, however, they changed their minds again, and there are references to it in the timeline of WotI. I do think it works best if you also have X4: Master of the Desert Nomads and X5: Temple of Death as prequels leading up to it, since they introduce the Master and the danger he poses to the Known World region. In X10 itself, the nefarious Hosadus (aka The Master of the Desert Nomads) finally begins to invade Darokin itself after conquering Sind and rallying the desert nomads in the Great Waste desert areas between Sind and his native Hule. The adventure begins with the PCs in Akesoli as it is invaded and conquered by the Master's forces. The plot the goes on to describe how things go badly for Darokin and how it's losing the war, and the PCs are then assigned to play diplomacy games across most of the Known World in order to enlist allies for Darokin against the Master. This leads to a number of adventures in the various nations, as they try to sway the opinions of the nation's leaders. In Karameikos, for example, they have to save Stefan Karameikos III from a plot by the Black Eagle and then help overthrow him before Duke Stefan will side with Darokin against the Master (yes, this demonstrates the confusion of when the plot actually takes place - are Duke Stefan III and the Black Eagle descendents of Stefan Karameikos and Ludwig von Hendriks? There is no answer to that...) I didn't have the adventure at the relevant point in my campaign, but that didn't stop me from letting the PCs do "diplomatic" missions along the same lines. For example, in Karameikos Stefan wanted to declare independence and so assigned the PCs to escort and help Teldon to Alphatia in order to make a non-aggression pact. Upon returning they then had to save Stefan from being killed by assassins from the Burayas in Sind secretly hired by the thyatian ambassador (I got that idea from a reference to such an attempt in the Karameikos set about that ambassador). There was no proof against the ambassador, though everybody knew he was probably involved. But nobody could do anything and they had to go on living side by side with him. I like that sort of thing - it demonstrates the 'grey' and political nature of Mystara over the cookie-cutter black-and-white of other D&D worlds well. Yes, me too. Even if I do use an official adventure, I usually revise it to the point of being unrecognizable... I am a member, though it's been a while since I've posted anything. I'm in lurker mode now, since nothing particularly interesting is happening at the moment. There was more activity on the Mystara Message Board (MMB) recently, but then I don't post there either due to some personal issues of the past. MMB can be found here

Then why implement overused Kashyyyk and Tatooine? They are out of place. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don't want any of those either...

As I understand it, the options should still be there as long as you haven't chosen a prestige class - you just have to pass level 15 and be 75% toward either side to be offered the choice. Once you have achieved both, Kreia should make a comment. Not sure, but you should be able to take however many levels of your initial class that you want - it shouldn't affect your ability to choose a prestige class later, unless you're reaching the level cap, but then that's very unlikely.

"Knights of the Old Republic II - Echoes and Wounds of the Force" (ducking for cover...)

The problem is that it works - WotC sell far more rulebooks than adventuring modules or campaign-descriptive material like the gazetteers, so which are people going to buy? In fact, WotC has cut down on the adventures, and fantasy RPG has entered a new dark age, since dungeon-crawls with hack'n'slash rule the day now, while quality like B10 is forgotten. These days half the adventures is reduced to the map of some god-forsaken hole-in-the-ground with treasure and mosnters-to-bash in it When WotC talk of the "good old days" now, they mean dungeon-crawls like "Temple of Elemental Evil" or "Tomb of Horrors" and not rich plot-based adventures like "Night's Dark Terror" or "Fate of Istus"...

Well, I wouldn't say I love "Warriors of Heaven", but unlike most Mystara-fanatics I won't be jumping up and down screamy "HERESY!!!" either :D I found it most useful for assigning individual homeplanes for the Immortals. A lot of Mystara-fans seem to think that the Immortals live in Pandius and nowhere else, but I've always seen Pandius a neutral ground where they meet to discuss stuff, not as their homes. That said, I disagree with many of the alignments granted to the various Immortals. Ixion is said to be Lawful Neutral, for example, which I find completely wrong given his description - I'd put him as a chaotic floating somewhere between good and neutral. Generally the D&D->AD&D conversion was awful for Mystara - all characters above level 12 to 14 were toned down, making 36th-level characters like Thincol, Eriadna, Terari, Anaxibius, Demetrion, etc. into 20th-level, thought there is no roof on levels in AD&D (FR AD&D rules go as high as 35 IIRC). If it had at least been consistent that would be one thing, but it wasn't - Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels from Glantri was a 30th-level magic-user in PWA1, but suddenly a 24th-level Invoker in the Glantri AD&D set. Suddenly he had become more experienced than wizards like Eriadna, Terari, or Demetrion. That's inexcusable. The same problem is there for alignments. D&D had only lawful, neutral, and chaotic. But rather than read the descriptions and reassign alignments, they just stuck whatever good/neutral/evil part fit best and let the rest stay as it was, which is utterly stupid. Eriadna is described as just as chaotic as other Alphatians in Dawn of the Emperors (DotE), but is listed as lawful, because she has learned that she needs to think before acting impulsively and understand the consequences of her choices. To then put her as Lawful Neutral in AD&D is to ignore that description completely. Ixion falls into the same category, methinks. :"> Well, I always saw the outer planes as a large, unknown frontier. Each of those planes on the "unity-of-rings" is supposed to be a universe to itself, but we know very little about what is going on on those planes. Even with the plane-sets in Planescape, they still aren't described in any detail going anywhere near the details of even a single AD&D campaign world, so there is more than enough room for it all within the confines of the list planes - in most cases they are still just names and nothing more. The same is true for Mystara's cosmology, which lists only the sphere-relevant planes and Old Alphatia (oh, and the Nightmare dimension). Well, now you've gone and done it - you've made me dig out all my ole Planescape material about the outer planes... And as if that wasn't bad enough, you have thereby reminded me that I really need to clean up my place, and that *IS* bad!! :D Anyway, for something like Old Alphatia, I'd place it inside Draesten, which could be placed somewhere within planes like Limbo, Ysgard, Arborea, or even Pandemonium given the chaotic nature of Energy. Sure local conditions as described in AD&D Planescape might suggest details other than those described for Draesten, but then the various worlds on the prime material also vary a great deal, so we're allowed to make local conditions. The structure of Old Alphatia (before they blew it to bits, that is) might represent the conquest of mind over matter and control over wild energies, for example, and so manifest themselves as local conditions within the general wildness of the plane as a whole. This would also explains the chaotic nature of Alphatians and Flaems, since they do originate from a plane that is chaotic in nature. This would make Draesten a layer of one of the planes the same way you made Pyts a layer on the Abyss. In the same manner Brynn could be placed on Mechanus or similar. In fact, WotI seems to describe Brynn as a "world" rather than a plane, which could mean that it is simply one part of a much larger universe. That would suggest a layer more than an entire plane. Well, since it just says "plane of energy" that can really mean anything. I'd be inclined to just let it be the positive energy plane and let the "plane of energy" be what Mystarans call it. There, problem solved. After all, postive energy is still energy, while few would think of 'negative' energy as energy. Entrem is a bit of a problem, yes, because it really doesn't fit into anything I've noted in the Planescape cosmology. I'd be inclined to make it layer (and a rather large one) of the Beastlands, however, simply because the Beastlands really don't seem as vast and broad as they should be. Otherwise we might place it in the Astral, where time is really strange in any event.

Named worlds of the Sith Empire in the EU would seem to have some relevance, since that is presumably where Revan and later the Exile went to find the true Sith. So Ziost, the central world from which the Dark Lord of the Sith reigns, and Khar Shian, where Naga Sadow had his secret base, would seem quite relevant. Sure, a lot of worlds will be chosen arbitrarily. For example, I want Alderaan simple because we've never seen it and Myrkr because the force is suppressed and so would make a nice twist in the game. But I think that the Sith worlds and Coruscant seem to be essential to the sort of epic conclusion to the threat of the true Sith that should be in KotOR3.

Yeah, which makes me disinclined to agree with seeing them - seem more like someone wants to see them because they're in Episode III than because they would add anything to the plot. Not that their presence in Episode III counts against them, but it's a weak basis for putting them in a game, where they serve no apparent function in the plot. Worlds of the true Sith would be much more appropriate. We do need to see where Revan and the Exile disappeared to, don't we?

Bao-Dur: "General, I've been wondering about something..." Exile: "What is it?" Bao-Dur: "Well, we've been to three planets and in several space combats since we boarded this ship, and in all that time, we haven't serviced it..." Exile: "Your point being?" Bao-Dur: "Well, that must have consumed rather a lot of fuel. Don't you think we should refuel the Ebon Hawk soon?" Exile: "Don't worry - we haven't crashed for a while now, so we're bound to do so soon anyway." Bao-Dur: "Oh..."

Well, I did say it was supposed to be more balanced, not that it was It is more polished, though - the way they let modifiers from different areas stack for attack bonuses are good, for example - that was a nightmare in 2e with players always moaning if the DM said something wasn't cumulative. The multi-class options are also much better. 2e multi-classes were a god-awful mess, and dual classes were huge loopholes wide open for exploitation of the rules. So yes, more polish, but no more than that. In fact, some the classes are totally unbalanced. Rangers have probably had the hardest history in D&D - they were powerful in 1e, but have been steadily dropping in potential for each incarnation of D&D since...

The burrowers aren't actually Thanatos', he has just tried (and failed) to use them on occasion. In truth they are remnants of the nefarious 'Outer Beings', who are supposed to be dark and evil gods now entrapped beyond the universe. Sound familiar? They're supposed to be kept in check by the 'Old Ones', who are the gods of the Immortals. Next to nothing is known about the Old Ones, though one does appear briefly at the end of WotI (so my players have actually met one...). For truly Lovecraftian-style Mystara, you really need to use the Carnifex, however. For that I'd direct you to the adventure M3: Twilight Calling. There are people in the Mystara community dedicated to exploring use of the Carnifex and Outer Beings in subtle ways that will enrich Mystara without taking away the mystery. In fact, the list moderator on the Mystara Mailing List (MML) is one of them. True enough. I just mentioned it as an example of a gazetteer that's not so interesting and one of the least used nations. Ierendi is just a vacation spot where nothing happens. There are some interesting areas, if you look around, though. The potential for pirate-stories is great, and there is that elusive Honor Island where those strange wizards live... "Wariors of Heaven" seems to be universally hated by Mystara-fans (though not me), so I'd be wary of mentioning it to them... I agree with you, but I've given up trying to define the core of the problem, since it always causes dissent and sore feelings, making it very difficult to establish a constructive dialogue. I guess it's just a case of people not liking having Mystara made into 'just another AD&D world' and then growing angry when they cannot find hard evidence against that being a possibility. The same goes for Spelljammer even though there are conversion guidelines for it in the Champions of Mystara set, which is the only D&D product to ever deal with space travel in any way. In fact, we know nothing about Mystara's space except what is described in relation to Haldemar's travels on the Princess Ark, yet many vehemently oppose the notion that spelljamming might be used for Mystara. They cite that Mystara's space is too cold and have no air, but actually there is nothing in Spelljammer rules preventing that as a local possibility - Krynn's space (that the Dragonlance world) is also very cold, for example. In fact, I think it was mentioned as such in the Monstrous Compendium supplement for Mystara under the entry for diabolus. Still, I'd be just as inclined to put the Nightmare dimension among the outer planes, but then it doesn't really matter. Incidentally, that compendium is about the only AD&D Mystara product to receive some grudging general approval among Mystara's fans. They don't love it per se, but I rarely see it flamed either. Here we would disagree some, since they are all described as outer planes in WotI. Old Alphatia isn't, but it's said to have ties to Draesten, and so would be in the outer planes as well. I'd much rather place these somewhere among the AD&D outer planes. Each of those is supposed to be as big as the universe, so there should be more than enough room. Well, not that it matters so much... I guess I just like the idea that the Alphatians and Flaems originate from an outer plane - it somehow fits their arrogant superiority in a strange way. But it makes little true difference. That would be my choice as well. The spheres of Mystaran cosmology are more problematic, since they're tied to the power of the Immortals. I tend to view them as 'sources of existence' that exist on a different level than the inner or outer planes and yet exist on all of them. I'd see them as more philosophical and so have little need to represent them with actual planes. That said, the red sun of the Hollow World is supposed to be a permanently opened gate to the sphere of energy (set up by Ixion), so I guess I need to accept it in some form. Besides, Entrem is also described as an outer plane in WotI, though I'd admit that I have no idea where to put it - it's pretty strange compared to the other outer planes.

Oh yes - d20 is much better designed than the old D&D stuff, but.. 1. The games are ancient - I cannot blame a game that is 20 to 30 years old and made during the infancy of role-playing for being inferior in design and consistency to a new game that is supposed to be current and balanced. Of course a game that's more than a quarter of century old is going to show its age - especially for RPGs - but d20 is new and yet enforces aspects that are really just as old. That's poor and disappointing. 2e Player Option rules were more 'advanced' and 'progressive' than 3e, even though they were spread out over a gazillion books. That's also true for 3e now, though 2. They were complete systems, whereas 3e is intentionally lacking. Monte Cook once said that people often ask him why there are no mass-combat rules in the 3e books, and his reply was that they weren't allowed to do it - WotC wanted to hold aspects of the game off for future products. You don't have that in the old D&D stuff - if you buy the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, then you buy a complete game in one book. Mass combat, dominion management, Immortal rules, usable descriptions of the nations (though not as extensive as the gazetteers, of course) and maps of them - it's all there in one book, and the rest is just expanding on that.

You wouldnt in the traditional sense, just reseal him. You would probably have to fight him, but it would be something along the same lines as the cave on Korriban, It would be more about your will overcoming his. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'd still cast my vote against Yavin IV because it can mess with continuity. If there was a truly valid reason for it, then I might feel differently, but I just don't see what plot can be served on Yavin IV that cannot be served on Sith worlds like Korriban, Ziost, Khar Delba, or the others we know of.

Btw, I mentioned Monte Cook doing a harsh review of D&D 3.5 Some might disbelieve or disagree with me on it being harsh, and in any event it is always best for people to judge for themselves. So I looked for the link and found it. Just click to find the review at montecook.com Now back to our regularly scheduled Mystara rant... :D Glad to hear someone finds it interesting. May I ask what interests people about Mystara? For me it's the 'grey' political scene and the never-all-black-or-all-white tone fo the setting, and the ridiculous power of the Alphatians (I like Alphatians, though they can be utter bastards), but I'd like a look with different eyes.