Jediphile

Darn. As I said, I just did some basic research and didn't get any of this. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Slight correction. Khar Shian is *not* a planet with a decoy fortress. Khar Shian is the moon of Khar Delba. Naga Sadow had a fortress on Khar Delba, which was a decoy, while his real fortress was hidden in the dark of Khar Shian. Ziost is the central world of the (true) Sith empire from which the Dark Lord rules. All of this originates from the Tales of the Jedi comic books series "Golden Age of the Sith" and "Fall of the Sith Empire", which are both set a little over 1000 years before the KotOR games.

Why? My proposal was to have the player set it during jedi history lessons early in the game (which turns out to be taught by handmaiden if Exile is set to light side). That's a very easy way of doing it, and it's even quite open about - no attempt to hide it in some subtle conversation or such. Yes, the setting of Revan and Exile's gender and alignment is getting a bit much, so I want their fates settled in KotOR3, but I want their sacrifices and choices to have meaning and impact on the evolving plot before I let them go. But KotOR3 should close the current plot. If there is to be a KotOR4 one day, that should be a fresh start. But we need resolution to the plots and characters we have now first. Seeing Canderous die isn't really the reason, but plotwise it's disappointing because he does not end up serving the role that Revan seemed to have intended for him. Note what Kreia says about him in her predictions at the end of KotOR2: "Many battles does that one have left in him... as Revan intended. A general needs an army, as he needs those he trusts. And Canderous is a loyal beast, no matter how much he is broken upon Revan's will. But you know this." This we need to see reflected in KotOR3 somehow. What can I say? The Hutts have been scum for a long time... My own suggested planets? Coruscant (beginning and finale) Alderaan (a not so safe refuge...) Sleheyron (Hutts and Exchange) Myrkr (a jungle world which is Czerka's latest victim) Khar Delba (now entering Sith space...) Khar Shian (moon of Khar Delba, where Naga Sadow had a secret base) Ziost (the Sith throneworld) Coruscant (return for the grand finale that settles the war with the true Sith)

What collective jedi group consciousness? The Exile was the only one to reject the dark side - all the other jedi either died or fell to the dark side and joined Revan and Malak in the conquest of the galaxy. Don't forget that the Exile was the only one to ever return to the face the jedi council.

Thanks for the story plot. I don't really mean to shoot it all down, but I see several potential problems with it... For one thing, Naga Sadow can never have ruled anything on Coruscant. He wasn't even aware of the Republic until a wayward ship found it's way to Korriban, and then he promptly used that to stage a failed assault on the Republic (the Great Hyperspace war) that got him exiled from the Sith empire and stranded on Yavin IV (this is all from the "Golden Age of the Sith" and "Fall of the Sith Empire" comic books). So Naga Sadow had very little knowledge of the Republic and could not have spread his idea far. That would fit much better for Exar Kun, though his reign was also very short. The whole beginning has KotOR1 written all over it. You're non-jedi waking up in a ship (okay, a space station) under attack by the Sith, and your backstory is a bit foggy. Then later you discover (or it's just revealed to the player - the net effect is the same or worse for a player, since it means he didn't know the character he was playing) that you have a history as a jedi, which you then promptly rededicate yourself to, though why the council would allow this is uncertain... It reminds me far too much of Revan. I'd rather begin as a young jedi padawan studying quietly under a master and then slowly becoming involved in the greater plot of the story. The thought of a master teaching my character 'the ropes' with murder investigations, smuggling, and other "jedi business" as the 'police' of Coruscant has far more appeal somehow. Though you have not described it all, I don't like the way Revan and the Exile are cast by the wayside just to make Darth Kayne seem threatening (ooh, this person killed Revan *and* the Exile? Must be one tough customer...). I guess many of us want some great revelation as to what has become of these characters, not just have them written out of the story with a throwaway comment. They should both be central to the story, as should their choices to seek out the true Sith, or else the time the player has invested in the previous games will seem pointless and hollow. I would much rather have them return as Sith lords to be defeated/converted, as I have described in my own suggestions. The death of Mandalore/Canderous is also very unsatisfying. This guy is supposed to be one of the toughest and hardest warriors around, yet the plot sees him killed at a point, when the main character is presumably still rather inexperienced? I'd much rather have him as a military leader commanding squads of Mandalorians in defense of the Republic during a big finale, even if that is just as a cutscene. And Coruscant as a jungle planet? Nar Shaddaa is more of a city-planet than the center of the galaxy? That just seems wrong somehow. If you really want a jungle planet with ties to Naga Sadow (though why eludes me - Naga Sadow has been used far too much beyond his potential IMHO), then Yavin IV is ideal. I added a jungle planet in my own suggestions, but I picked Myrkr for the obvious irony with regard to the force... As for the jedi council, it has been argued repeatedly whether there even is one anymore or not. I don't think that all the jedi are gone, but given the events of KotOR2, there can't be many - the jedi were all but wiped, and then masters you find are also killed by the plot... I put what you'd call a 'pretender' council in my suggestions, but they were inexperienced jedi and not masters, and if you set the Exile to light side, then they were all of the Exile's companions - Atton teaching mental resistance, Handmaiden history, Bao-Dur lightsaber-creation, etc.

The droid is there only as a hint of things to come, only it never does. Notice that locked door to the sublevel that you couldn't open right near where you find this droid? There was supposed to be a big secret there, which would have made the droid's presence there more than relevant. Unfortunately an unexpected deadline hit the programmers, and the material was lost... For more information, look around these fora for the term "cut content".

Welcome to the forum. Yes, rumors have circulated here too, but they all seem to suggest that KotOR3 may, at best, by in pre-production, which is probably just a way of saying that they're still picking up the pieces of releasing an unfinished KotOR2... I very much doubt that KotOR3 is being programmed as we speak, or even that the plot is being considered. More likely it's at a stage, where people at Lucasarts are trying to consider the marketing strategy and what can be done to accomodate all the people who feel cheated into buying an unfinished game, when they got KotOR2. As for your ideas of playing dark side or Sith from the beginning of a new game, I find that to be unlikely. If you want diversity over plot, then Star Wars Galaxies is your game, but KotOR games are deep and plot-based games with very linear stories, and if they are also to be economically feasible, that means that the diversity of character creation will be rather limited to say the least. It also means that the events of the game, the enemies you fight, etc. are likely to be the same no matter which side of the force you play, since it would demand a lot to program it differently. I do think they pulled that off in both games, but then I also tend to play light side. Perhaps the dark side part could have been handled better. We certainly hear people arguing that dark side options really just means being a jerk to everyone and has no subtlety or manipulation, like that of Palpatine or Kreia. It's not easy to see how the latter would be incorporated well into a game that also has to work for 'naive' lightsiders, though... Anyway, so far we're mostly just talking about what we would like to see in KotOR3 here. Most posts focus on smaller things in graphics or plot that people want tweaked a bit, and there is a lot of discussion over whether people would rather have Revan, the Exile, or a new main character in the next game. Some (like myself) have suggested actual plots for the game, though they are rarely discussed much.

These kinds of things usually happen in campaigns, like "Masks of Nylarlathotep" or "Shadows of Yog'Sothoth" and other such where after repeated casualities and narrow escapes, eventually the players get something of a clue of what they're up against. That's when the clamoring usually starts for heavy weaponry (which is usually denied). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Precisely. We all began by setting up our characters to whatever we wanted. A good GM (Keeper in CoC) will always take that into account and run mystery scenarios early on, when your characters are still just trying to piece the horrible truth of the mythos together. But as the game progresses, the characters will begin to discover things and slowly unearth the mysteries of the mythos (the PCs are called 'investigators' rather than 'adventurers' in CoC for a good reason). As that happens, the opposition will incrase, because their investigations will not have gone completely unnoticed by the cultists of the mythos, who will sent assassins to kill them, try to frame them for whatever, or spring unspeakble monsters against them. As the game progresses, this will polarize the players, because with each confrontation, they will find their skills lacking, both in ability to physically stand against the opposition and in knowledge of their secrets (including magic). Once you get to that point, players ususally begin focusing their skills in one of those two directions - combat (which means marksmanship, weapons-ability, and physical resistance) or lore (mythos, library use, magic, etc.).

That's all good and fine. I prefer 2e, but then I've already admitted that it's probably due to reasons of nostalgia more than because it's a better game. So fair enough - I'll just have to accept that I've outgrown D&D, sad though that may be to face... Only d20 isn't content to stay D&D. If they stuck to d20 Pokemon and similar, then this wouldn't be a problem, but games like Star Wars and Call of Cthluhu have suffered from d20 IMHO, and WotC are not planning to stop there - they want d20 to spread across the entire industry. If that happens, then those alternate systems will disappear. Having entry-level RPGs is okay, since I won't have to play them, but when they begin to muscle in on the territory where I like to play, then I will object and say that these *ARE* exceedingly simplistic entry-level RPGs and not the next generation of RPG. Heck, D&D/d20 isn't even the current generation of RPG - it's the old generation of RPG, hailing all the way back to the early 70s, when D&D became the first RPG ever. RPGs have grown since then and advanced beyond its infancy. This has meant dropping outdated concepts like fixed classes, hit points, experience levels, and their ilk, since they do not represent a compelling experience that serves to suspend the disbelief of the players. Both Cthulhu 5th Ed. and Star Wars d6, though both still simple, were more mature systems than their current d20 incarnations. They were perhaps less polished, but still more mature. D20 isn't a step forward, it's a step back to the early 80s and 70s, and since it permeates the RPG industry or at least intends to, it only serves to regress the development of better RPGs and stop innovation in new games. Quite... Also true, though I should admit that my lasting CoC (5th ed) character was indeed a "brain". He was a fat parapsychologist with abysmal strength (couldn't fire any weapon without penalties...) and a growing Cthulhu Mythos. Along the way he did pick up a few nasty habits, though, particularly once per month at full moon, and for some reason he always ended up eating whatever character one of my old friends was always playing at the time, though I will defend myself by saying that the last time it happened, he was at least dead first... My character lived for about the decade we played before the campaign died, and he didn't die even then. So how did he survive so long, when he was obviously in so poor physical condition? Ah, brawns can run faster, perhaps, but it's just as much a question of knowing *WHEN* to run - ability to run fast doesn't help if I know how to run first - brain over brawn indeed I can tell we've had similar experience with Call of Cthulhu Gosh, how I miss those days (even though our Keeper was and remains an utter jerk...)

My point was that when a Mythos monster appears, you really need somebody to fight it, but it can't be the scholars, because knowing what it ismeans having at least a decent Cthulhu Mythos, and since Sanity is never above 99-Mythos, that means the higher the Mythos, the lower the sanity. And in Cthulhu ignorance truly is bliss - you're actually penalized for really knowing that the monster is, and rewarded for not knowing a damn thing about it. The scholars will have lower sanity, so they will usually fail their sanity checks and stand around shocked and screaming in the corner. The "warriors" don't know what the problem is, though, and instead just fight the monsters. This works best when the scholars know that fighting is futile, but can't say it and can't run away, because they've gone into apathy, while the others can run away, but don't have the knowledge that it is the only way to survive... Yes, Cthulhu is an evil game

It did bother me. At least there was reason for the reduced power of Revan and the Exile, but it doesn't seem that anyone wiped T3's memory (in fact, he seems to be the one erasing other droids...). Yes, I know that he was drop for game balance purposes, but it doesn't make much sense logically (Note: This is one reason why I hate experience levels...) How could Obi-Wan defeat Darth Maul, when he had just killed Qui-Gon, who was presumably far more experienced at wielding a lightsaber and using force powers? Experience levels just don't make so much sense...

Very true. Indeed, players who, in a skill-based game, all go for the same skills are in for a rude awakening. Or even worse, a player could decide to be reasonable in a lot of skills, but not brilliant in any - though such a character is diverse to some degree, he will not be very useful in the group. And the group *will* need diverse groups of skills at high levels. Take 5th edition Call of Cthulhu. That's a skill-based system. There are professions, but they really only serve to focus the character on taking up to eight skills as primary (though I don't know why they bother, since the rules say you can make up your own professions anyway, so it really is just a redundant chore...). Anyway, playing Cthulhu, you quickly learn that most (if not all) players should focus on one of two directions - good warriors/marksmen who known nothing about what the 'monsters' represent and scholars/professors who do know because they study Cthulhu Mythos. Why this is essential will become only too obvious when you meet a monster... :D

Yeah, Paranoia rules. I've heard more hilarious war stories from this game that most others, and it's not even the most played. Sadly Paranoia falls into a category of games, including such classics as Ars Magica or Cthulhu Now, that I have never had the chance to play myself

Cheap shots are fun to take. I tend to torture my PCs as much as I can <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh, I didn't just stop there - the ranger had a ring of regeneration, and so the Black Eagle tortured him to death repeatedly, then let him recover some (you cannot die from wounds if wearing a ring of regeneration according to the rules). Nasty. Wish I could say I thought of it, but it was competely stolen from Greyhawk (where Ivid the Undying does that sort of thing in the Great Kingdom, only he provides the ring himself...). As if that wasn't enough, the Black Eagle and Bargle then came up with a diabolical plan. Bargle placed an advanced Geas spell on the ranger that commanded him to 'escape' and then go to Specularum. Since the ranger is a knight of Karameikos, he may wear arms in the King's court, so he would go in there armed and then kill Stefan. He was then likely to be killed by killed the king's guards, but just in case he didn't, they also placed another spell on him.. I took the player aside and explained all this to him (except the second spell, of course), so that he could role-play the challenge. So there was a good reason why the group could escape, since Bargle and von Hendriks let him go. They forgot to include the order not to rescue his friends, however, so when he was set free, he helped them escape too (after we had played an entire gaming session where the other three character had tried in vain to escape). Basically the whole thing was a reverse form of the DDA3 Eye of Traldar adventure. The adventure is low-level, and the PCs have to sneak into Fort Doom and recover the legendary Eye of Traldar (an exceptionally powerful scrying device), which has fallen into the hands of a new wizard called Sverdlov. My PCs were all levels 12-15, but they began captured inside the dungeons of Fort Doom, and then had no spells (all spellbooks and holy symbols stolen), and they were all severely injured. So they find the eye and escape through the dungeons (which is the way inside in the adventure). But in doing so, they have set the ranger free and must discover that something is wrong before he goes to Specularum and kills Stefan. They didn't do too well, despite various clues thrown all over the place. They didn't even get the clue that the ranger, who is notorious in the group for hating cities, wanted to go to the capital more than he wanted to go and return the Eye itself to the Seer who lives among the elves of the Dymrak Forest - that should have been a pretty big clue... In the end, they figured it out, because the NPC of the adventure noted that the Eye was an item of religious importance to the traladaran faith, particularly to the Immortal Zirchev, which is the ranger's own patron. Must say I was a little disappointed that they didn't pick up on it before that... Anyway, this led to a humorous confrontation, where the wizard tried to convince the ranger (played by wife and husband respectively) that there was something wrong with him, and that he should let her cast a spell to incapacitate him. They argued back and forth for an hour, while I was biting my lip so hard from suppressing my laughter that I really should be compensated :D Eventually she did put him out with a Hold Person spell, and then they took him to Terari at the emerging School of Magecraft (AC 1010, remember). He removed the advanced Geas, but triggered the second spell, which was a Programmed Amnesia (from Spells & Magic), which made him forget everything that had happened since he was captured Is that a cheap shot? You tell me... The ranger is a mixed thyatian/traladaran male, but follows the traladaran faiths and customs. He was born in the Black Eagle barony under von Hendrik's rule, and his parents were killed under the evil reign of the Black Eagle, so there is little love lost between them. The player chose the Black Eagle as his 'Powerful Enemy' (optional disadvantage from Skills & Powers), so it was really a background choice. Over the years they've clashed several times, though it's only after the recent captured that the Black Eagle has become hated by the entire group, which was naturally the reason for my nefarious plots - it's time for the Black Eagle to fall, so all the PCs should just get to hate him enough to really enjoy it when it comes

Yes, but that just brings about the problem that the games will be competing with each other. The number potential customers is not going to grow simply because they write two games, and most people will still play only one side. Given how the poll of how people have played the KotOR games turned out, only the Jedi-version is likely to make some profit, and then only marginally so. So that doesn't strike me as a good idea either. And just think of all the wars it will spawn on the forum as to which is the "true" one

KotOR1: T3-M4. He held no interest whatsoever and was so uninterested that I never used him. Truly, whenever I purchase him, I take him from the droid shop the short way to the Sith base, have him open the door, then drop him from the party and replace him with someone else. I never use him again after that. Ever. KotOR2: G0-T0. Pretty much the same as for T3 in KotOR1 - by the time you get G0-T0 in the group, you already have a big party with a variety of skills, so there really is not reason to use him. You could say the same of Mandalore, but G0-T0 doesn't even have an interesting story to tell if you build influence with him (or is that "it"?)...

The Exile and his stalwart companions have voyaged far, had much adversity, and fought terrible enemies, but at long last their search for the Lord Revan has brought them to a cave, where the trail of Revan has led them. Exile: "Damn, it's dark." Mira: "Anyone got a flashlight" [Everybody looks at each other in the darkness...] Mandalore: "Oh, you've got to be kidding me..." HK-47: "Mocking statement: Well, at least someone doesn't need light. Being an advanced assassination droid of unrivaled sophistication has the advantage of photoreceptors, and so makes the need that meatbag eyes have of ligthting completely redundant for my humble self, master." Everyone: "Oh shut up". Visas: "What do you all need flashlights for? I can see just fine..." Handmaiden: "Well, you would... Sithspawn..." Disciple: "Now, let's all be friends here, there is no need for us to..." Everyone: "SHUT UP!!" Exile: "Well, while *I* can see in the dark like Visas, there *is* a reason why I trained you all and gave you lightsabers..." Atton: "Ah, finally a use for this thing..." [He turns on his lightsaber... the rest follow his example] Mandalore: "Finally..." Lucasarts: "Hurry up guys - the deadline is running out!" Exile (shocked): "What the... Oh, heck - well, we better hurry - cut the chatter and lets move..." [They hurry down the cavern and rush past a few monsters conveniently cut from the game... Finally they reach their destination - a mysteriously hooded figure stands before them. The figure slowly drops the hood...] Exile: "Lord Revan! Finally we found you! But what has happened to you? And why are you..." THE END - STAR WARS - KNIGHTS OF THE OLD REPUBLIC II - THE SITH LORDS DIRECTED BY OBSIDIAN PUBLISHED BY LUCASARTS... [Credits continue...] Exile: "Oh crud!!"

Yeah, I had pretty much the same idea, except mine was in the jedi temple on Coruscant during a history class, which, if you choose light side for the Exile, turns out to be taught by the Handmaiden... I really want to see the Exile's companions teach jedi. Atton would train mental resistances, Bao-Dur how to make lightsabers, etc. But only if the Exile is set to light side, of course. If not, these should all be replaced by generic NPCs. These could speak "non-human", which doesn't require different voice-acting - quarrens, twi-leks, ithorians, duros, rodians, sullustans, maybe even mon calamari and zabrak. These could all replace the Exile's companions, if dark sided. But if light sided I want them there as per Kreia's revelantion that were 'the lost jedi'.

Though I don't have a problem with that, I very doubt it will happen. To expect the devs (whoever they will be) to essentially write two games and sell them for the price of one seems unrealistic to me. Unfortunately.

Personally I don't have the problem. Nobody in my group wants to play a rogue at the moment, so why force them? There is an uncursed-mintaur-turned-human fighter, a male human ranger (who could give Legolas a run for his money with his bow...), a female human wizardess, and a male dwarven fighter/cleric. All heavily geared toward combat, the dwarf and non-minotaur focused on melee, the ranger on ranged, and the wizard on... well, artillery :D I don't prohibit thieves, and we have had them at times, but the people who have played them have long since left, so I'm not going to force anything. Besides, I can add thieves as NPCs when needed, and do so on occasion. Besides, the ranger can do several thief-like things like hiding in shadows and moving silently, and since he's level 15, he's very good at it (especially with Dexterity 19 on top of it...). That said, I do take cheap shots at the lack of a thief at times - I'm sure a thief would have been really handy when the entire group was captured by an evil wizard and thrown in the dungeons of the ranger's arch enemy (yes, Lancer, they were captured by Bargle, who gave them to the Black Eagle...)

Wonderful "Shrubbery"... Why do I suddenly think, "We are the Knights Who Say: NI!!" :D Yes, this is a recurring problem, and it's actually another argument against fixed classes - in a skill based system, the group members could have spread out to cover the thieves' skill, but in D&D you must have a thief. It was a little better in 2e Player Option and 3e, which pretty much repeats the same rules, since fighters and others could at least take some thieves' skill, but still not all of them. But since not all are covered, a thief is needed, and the role is forced on somebody who doesn't really want it, as was the case for you. An excellent example of shoddy game design, actually... Sure this part does belong in the "warstories" topic I began? :D

Dagobah isn't Yoda's homeplanet - it's just were he went into exile to hide from the Sith while the Empire ruled the galaxy. IIRC, the Thrawn trilogy suggests he went there because the 'place strong with the dark side' would hide his own light side presence, and so he would remain undetected by the Sith there (same for Obi-Wan on Tatooine, btw). Yoda's (and Vandar's) species remains a mystery, as does their homeworld.

Welcome. Total agreement on my part, though we do need them in the game. Yes. My own suggestion was to make them "semi-PCs", which means that they become optional main characters once you meet them. They wouldn't appear until rather far into the game, which makes their high-levels of the previous games approachable. Yes, they would lose some levels, but bringing them into the game is always going to be a problem, since people played them in all sorts of different ways with various class-options and so. So people will have to rebuild them in some way, if they are to appear at all. I find that to be the lesser of two evils. Maybe a comment about whether the were consulars, guardians, or sentinels should be available early in the game, when you will presumably set their gender and alignment. Sure, they might lose levels, particularly the Exile, but if they're both around level 16+ when you meet them, it really won't be a major problem. Seems a lot of us want to begin with a young padawan training under a master on Coruscant... It was my suggestion too, and I was scarcely the only one. And we all seem to hate the idea of yet another amnesic jedi... Yeah, we really need Coruscant. I don't agree with Dantooine, though. It's probably the planet I want to see least of all (except, perhaps, Tatooine). We've now seen it twice in as many games, and it's a ruin anyway... I'd much rather see Alderaan, Myrkr, and Sleheyron. And I want to see the Sith worlds Khar Delba/Khar Shian and Ziost. Definitely. There has been much speculation about a new graphics engine, but to be honest I really don't care - I just want the plot to be solid and the game to be finished...

Agreed. KotOR without jedi/sith as main character isn't really KotOR. I'd love a game where you'd play a non-force user. Seems *everything* in Star Wars is about the Jedi/Sith struggle. It could be interesting to explore something that just isn't about that. For example, they could set the game in the time between Episode III and IV - there are no jedi and the two positions of allowed Sith are already filled, so you cannot be a force user (well Force Adept might be possible). Instead the game is about the harshness of the Empire and how normal people sufffer beneath, a bit like the plots of the X-Wing games. It's like everyone's forgot that there are non-jedi in Star Wars since the prequel trilogy began.

Well, I can't do that in 2e, even with Player Option rules. It's just not possible. I can alter stuff, I can change the rules, but get to where I have the level of options for characterization I want? Nope, not possible. It would be easier to write a new system... Or just play something else.

Yes, that is the focus of the debate, but I don't see why it cannot be discussed. My position (and I think several here agree with that) is that experience levels and fixed classes are bad, because they enforce a structure that does not exist in real life. Sure, you could say that RPGs are not realistic in any event, but *are* representative of reality in some way - we're not talking about Road Runner the RPG, after all. We're talking about RPGs were we play characters who are not quite so distanced from reality that we that we cannot empathize with them. If there is dissent about something in an RPG, then the first argument is usually about how something would or could never happen in the real world. Of course there is no magic in the real world, but people can become good swordsman or crack shots, so evaluating something from a realistic assessment is not entirely irrelevant (except for magic, psionics, force-powers, laser guns, starships, etc.). Most times when players have argued against AD&D rules in my campaign, it has been on the basis of something being totally unrealistic. And despite what anyone might think about that, it is a valid objection, because unconving rules do not serve to suspend disbelief, and that is essential in role-playing - if you cannot put yourself in the position of your character, then your ability to play him is compromised - he becomes a cartoonish character whose situation and opinions cannot be accepted as compelling or relevant in any way, and so you won't care much what happens to him. That is poison to the player-character relationship. And fixed classes, experience levels, and hit points does not help here because they are so unrealistic - it distances the characters from reality and turns them into cartoonish figures. They become like characters in fantasy movies or the like. Now, in an epic/heroic game like AD&D, you could say that's not so bad, except for one important aspect - when you watch Luke Skywalker or Captain Picard or Aragorn fight the bad guys, you know they're not going to die - they will not be killed in a fight and they will defeat the villains. One-way drama can work that way, because you're exploring a narrative that you're already distanced from - you look at what Luke or Picard or whomever are doing, but you do not participate, and there is no danger beyond what the writer/director/whoever can evoke with his plot and characterization. Those people are fairly good at what they do, but they also do have the handy tools of lighting, impressive visual effects and atmospheric music at their disposal. Computer games are much the same way. KotOR games are horribly fixed for archetype, but you get a compelling story with all the trimmings of a movie in return. You do not, however, get many genuine options to choose from in the game - there is one set plotline, and you must follow that whether you like it or not. It's basically like a movie where you get to participate in some elements of a scene, but you don't get to rewrite it, and you don't get to progress in the plot until you've completed the scene the way you're supposed to. Tabletop RPG is completely different - here you have *all* the choices, and they are all genuine. You don't have the flash or atmospheric music of the movies, however, so if the experience is to be compelling, then it must come from interaction of the plot (controlled by the GM) and the character (controlled by the player). And your hero can certainly die in the confrontation with the evil Sith or Black Eagle Baron or whomever - you can't just reload and play the scene again if things go against you (much to the chagrin of many a role-player, but I digress )! So when you enter a fight, there is something at stake, because your character could lose his life or similar. Only how is losing your character going to mean anything, if your he is not the character you had in mind, because the rules did not allow you to make what you thought of? And how are you to suspend your disbelief when you know that your 17th-level warrior with a full plate +5 and a sword +4 could easily kill the entire village, or even the army of thousand orcs you just noticed down the road? It's all good and fine to say that the warrior shouldn't kill all the helpless villagers, but if it's what the player wants to do because someone stole from him or insulted him, then it *is* interfering with the player-character relationship if the GM tries to prevent a player from doing so. Isn't it more relevant that the rules should preclude such nonsense in and of themselves? I don't mind that a genuine swordmaster like Conan can knock down a few orcs without too much trouble, but even Conan is supposed to be threatened, if he is all alone against 10 orcs or similar. Sure, he might win the fight, but the threat is there. For even a 9th-level D&D fighter, it is not there.