Jediphile

I just played normally. I repaired HK as soon as I could, completed the quests, bought the pacifist package, got back to the ebon hawk, talked to HK and one of the lines said something like this: "Could I install this package....." (I don't remember, exactly, how the line was, but it is similar) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I seem to recall that there is a bug which allows the option to install it during the conversation to come up only if certain conditions are present. Can't remember, but I managed to install it as a male lightsider for some... humorous results If anyone remembers when the option to install it triggers, please speak up.

What collective jedi group consciousness? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You mean, the Jedi are BORG!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> "We are the Jedi - throw down your weapons and surrencer your ships. Resistance is futile!" :D

What collective jedi group consciousness? The Exile was the only one to reject the dark side - all the other jedi either died or fell to the dark side and joined Revan and Malak in the conquest of the galaxy. Don't forget that the Exile was the only one to ever return to the face the jedi council. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Eh, the very same Jedi Council that rejected the dark side I'd presume. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Precisely. I was thinking it might be: the Jedi who left to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, who repressed all the atrocities they had to commit and witness, plus the Jedi who stayed behind and repressed the fates of the millions who would die because of their inaction, their own Canterbury Cathedral Syndrome (as in Winston Churchill's enigma dilemma). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The jedi that follow Revan and Malak to fight in the Mandalorians didn't repress anything - they all either fell or gave in to the dark side as Revan and Malak did or they didn't survive at all (remember HK-47's comment about Revan 'cleaning house). The Exile was uniquely the only one of them to reject the dark side and return to the jedi coundil. The jedi council wasn't there, since they refused to enter the Mandalorian War in the first place. Hence they never committed any of the atrocities that would have made them fall to the dark side, and so there was no lure for them to repress. Not entering the war was choice, not repression.

Fallout was there ages before anyone ever heard of 3e. I played through Fallout 2 when 3e was announced and discussed, though, so when I saw some of the ideas, I thought, "Hmm, doesn't this look a bit familar?" I suppose this means d20 modern looks rather a lot like Fallout, though I don't know - I've never seen d20 modern and I plan to keep it that way. I just heard they cut down on the fixed class-thing.

That's how the Empire saw it, yes, but it also cost them a lot of pilots who switched to the other side. Yes and no. Capital ships are important (we all want our own Star Destroyer, go on and admit it ), but the empire believed in overwhelming the enemy with superior numbers rather than superior technology. I believe it says somewhere that TIE fighters are always supposed to work in groups of no less than three, and that they counted three TIEs for every X-wing... That might have been from one of the X-wing games, though.

In the interest of getting this topic back on track, I'll share another warstory from the RPG front. This falls under the heading "most embarrasing character death", though I should hasten to note that I was not the player of said character (or I might be too embarrassed to share this...) The game is Call of Cthulhu. We were playing "Walker in the Wastes" IIRC, and were sidetracked to Scotland on a red herring mission, though we didn't know that at the time. By a great lake (obvious Nessie potential here, but we never saw any of it) we were exploring some clues. I forget which, but it doesn't matter. Our group came across these ancient ruins, which seemed both ominous and yet with the potential for secrets to unearth (or perhaps because of it...). Searching through it, we discovered it to be large, so naturally we split the group... Yes, I know - "Hey, this looks dangerous... Let's split up!" Exploring the rooms, we found a few interesting things. One seemed to be an ancient torture chamber. Another was a plain and empty stony room with only a bucket in it, which was full of some foul-smelling liquid that might have been urine or worse. Suddenly members of one of the groups began to feel very warm. Hot even. So hot, in fact, that they felt like they were burning up! The GM (or Keeper) made sure to ask the players what they would do. One rushed all the way outside and jumped into the lake the cool off, which probably saved his life. My character was exploring the empty stone room, when suddenly another of the 'overheated' investigators came running in, shouting in agony over burning up. It was obvious too, as the GM described how his skin was literally cracking open from heat. But before we could react, the poor guy rushed across the room, grabbed the bucket, and emptied its foul contents over his head... and then he burned up completely! Still wondering whether to shudder or laugh at that one, but I find it more healthy to do the latter

Well, Fallout had experience levels too, and you got new 'perks' exactly every third level... Sounds a lot like 3e to, except with slight expanded skill rules (and none of that max. skill level tied to experience level crap) and no fixed class (since you only made one character). Also, we did get monster-slashing xp in Fallout. I know I've hunted radioactive deserts of dry of mutated monsters looking for xp... " For CRPGs my standards are lower, since it's so rare to find one that's just worth playing at all, and Fallout 1 and 2 were among the best. I mean, I play KotOR even though it has d20 written all over it and suffers from it, so... I wouldn't play a KotOR tabletop RPG, though - there are simply too many other good RPGs out there for it to even compete for my interest.

Agreed. The Sith planet should be new. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why would Sith worlds like Khar Delba (and Khar Shian) or Ziost be outer rim worlds? It's true that the fleet of Empress Teta followed Naga Sadow back to the Sith empire, but note how the name of the system they went to is never mentioned in "Fall of the Sith Empire" - there is nothing to suggest the Republic has any knowledge of worlds like Ziost. The fact that the Daragons were held captive on Ziost proves nothing, since they were taken there as prisoners and taken away by Naga Sadow in secret. Khar Delba could be known, since Jori escaped to the Republic from there (and so would have the hyperspace coordinates), except everyone ignores her warnings and the ship is confiscated before anyone can copy the logs (indeed, it seems unlikely anyone obtained them, since Ssk Kahorr appeared very interested in keeping the matter secret so he could use the ship to explore the hyperspace routes for his own benefit alone). Korriban is obviously known, but note what Kreia says at the end of KotOR2, when she tells the Exile about Revan: "It is because he remembered what lay buried here - this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, you know, the remnants here. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark." So clearly Kreia is referring to the Sith Empire that Naga Sadow was the dark lord of and more than suggests that they threat of the "true" Sith comes from there. And the central world of that empire is Ziost until otherwise established. Don't forget that just because we've heard about these worlds in Star Wars canon (or EU), that doesn't mean that they are known to the Republic.

How do you figure that?

Darn. As I said, I just did some basic research and didn't get any of this. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Slight correction. Khar Shian is *not* a planet with a decoy fortress. Khar Shian is the moon of Khar Delba. Naga Sadow had a fortress on Khar Delba, which was a decoy, while his real fortress was hidden in the dark of Khar Shian. Ziost is the central world of the (true) Sith empire from which the Dark Lord rules. All of this originates from the Tales of the Jedi comic books series "Golden Age of the Sith" and "Fall of the Sith Empire", which are both set a little over 1000 years before the KotOR games.

Why? My proposal was to have the player set it during jedi history lessons early in the game (which turns out to be taught by handmaiden if Exile is set to light side). That's a very easy way of doing it, and it's even quite open about - no attempt to hide it in some subtle conversation or such. Yes, the setting of Revan and Exile's gender and alignment is getting a bit much, so I want their fates settled in KotOR3, but I want their sacrifices and choices to have meaning and impact on the evolving plot before I let them go. But KotOR3 should close the current plot. If there is to be a KotOR4 one day, that should be a fresh start. But we need resolution to the plots and characters we have now first. Seeing Canderous die isn't really the reason, but plotwise it's disappointing because he does not end up serving the role that Revan seemed to have intended for him. Note what Kreia says about him in her predictions at the end of KotOR2: "Many battles does that one have left in him... as Revan intended. A general needs an army, as he needs those he trusts. And Canderous is a loyal beast, no matter how much he is broken upon Revan's will. But you know this." This we need to see reflected in KotOR3 somehow. What can I say? The Hutts have been scum for a long time... My own suggested planets? Coruscant (beginning and finale) Alderaan (a not so safe refuge...) Sleheyron (Hutts and Exchange) Myrkr (a jungle world which is Czerka's latest victim) Khar Delba (now entering Sith space...) Khar Shian (moon of Khar Delba, where Naga Sadow had a secret base) Ziost (the Sith throneworld) Coruscant (return for the grand finale that settles the war with the true Sith)

What collective jedi group consciousness? The Exile was the only one to reject the dark side - all the other jedi either died or fell to the dark side and joined Revan and Malak in the conquest of the galaxy. Don't forget that the Exile was the only one to ever return to the face the jedi council.

Thanks for the story plot. I don't really mean to shoot it all down, but I see several potential problems with it... For one thing, Naga Sadow can never have ruled anything on Coruscant. He wasn't even aware of the Republic until a wayward ship found it's way to Korriban, and then he promptly used that to stage a failed assault on the Republic (the Great Hyperspace war) that got him exiled from the Sith empire and stranded on Yavin IV (this is all from the "Golden Age of the Sith" and "Fall of the Sith Empire" comic books). So Naga Sadow had very little knowledge of the Republic and could not have spread his idea far. That would fit much better for Exar Kun, though his reign was also very short. The whole beginning has KotOR1 written all over it. You're non-jedi waking up in a ship (okay, a space station) under attack by the Sith, and your backstory is a bit foggy. Then later you discover (or it's just revealed to the player - the net effect is the same or worse for a player, since it means he didn't know the character he was playing) that you have a history as a jedi, which you then promptly rededicate yourself to, though why the council would allow this is uncertain... It reminds me far too much of Revan. I'd rather begin as a young jedi padawan studying quietly under a master and then slowly becoming involved in the greater plot of the story. The thought of a master teaching my character 'the ropes' with murder investigations, smuggling, and other "jedi business" as the 'police' of Coruscant has far more appeal somehow. Though you have not described it all, I don't like the way Revan and the Exile are cast by the wayside just to make Darth Kayne seem threatening (ooh, this person killed Revan *and* the Exile? Must be one tough customer...). I guess many of us want some great revelation as to what has become of these characters, not just have them written out of the story with a throwaway comment. They should both be central to the story, as should their choices to seek out the true Sith, or else the time the player has invested in the previous games will seem pointless and hollow. I would much rather have them return as Sith lords to be defeated/converted, as I have described in my own suggestions. The death of Mandalore/Canderous is also very unsatisfying. This guy is supposed to be one of the toughest and hardest warriors around, yet the plot sees him killed at a point, when the main character is presumably still rather inexperienced? I'd much rather have him as a military leader commanding squads of Mandalorians in defense of the Republic during a big finale, even if that is just as a cutscene. And Coruscant as a jungle planet? Nar Shaddaa is more of a city-planet than the center of the galaxy? That just seems wrong somehow. If you really want a jungle planet with ties to Naga Sadow (though why eludes me - Naga Sadow has been used far too much beyond his potential IMHO), then Yavin IV is ideal. I added a jungle planet in my own suggestions, but I picked Myrkr for the obvious irony with regard to the force... As for the jedi council, it has been argued repeatedly whether there even is one anymore or not. I don't think that all the jedi are gone, but given the events of KotOR2, there can't be many - the jedi were all but wiped, and then masters you find are also killed by the plot... I put what you'd call a 'pretender' council in my suggestions, but they were inexperienced jedi and not masters, and if you set the Exile to light side, then they were all of the Exile's companions - Atton teaching mental resistance, Handmaiden history, Bao-Dur lightsaber-creation, etc.

The droid is there only as a hint of things to come, only it never does. Notice that locked door to the sublevel that you couldn't open right near where you find this droid? There was supposed to be a big secret there, which would have made the droid's presence there more than relevant. Unfortunately an unexpected deadline hit the programmers, and the material was lost... For more information, look around these fora for the term "cut content".

Welcome to the forum. Yes, rumors have circulated here too, but they all seem to suggest that KotOR3 may, at best, by in pre-production, which is probably just a way of saying that they're still picking up the pieces of releasing an unfinished KotOR2... I very much doubt that KotOR3 is being programmed as we speak, or even that the plot is being considered. More likely it's at a stage, where people at Lucasarts are trying to consider the marketing strategy and what can be done to accomodate all the people who feel cheated into buying an unfinished game, when they got KotOR2. As for your ideas of playing dark side or Sith from the beginning of a new game, I find that to be unlikely. If you want diversity over plot, then Star Wars Galaxies is your game, but KotOR games are deep and plot-based games with very linear stories, and if they are also to be economically feasible, that means that the diversity of character creation will be rather limited to say the least. It also means that the events of the game, the enemies you fight, etc. are likely to be the same no matter which side of the force you play, since it would demand a lot to program it differently. I do think they pulled that off in both games, but then I also tend to play light side. Perhaps the dark side part could have been handled better. We certainly hear people arguing that dark side options really just means being a jerk to everyone and has no subtlety or manipulation, like that of Palpatine or Kreia. It's not easy to see how the latter would be incorporated well into a game that also has to work for 'naive' lightsiders, though... Anyway, so far we're mostly just talking about what we would like to see in KotOR3 here. Most posts focus on smaller things in graphics or plot that people want tweaked a bit, and there is a lot of discussion over whether people would rather have Revan, the Exile, or a new main character in the next game. Some (like myself) have suggested actual plots for the game, though they are rarely discussed much.

These kinds of things usually happen in campaigns, like "Masks of Nylarlathotep" or "Shadows of Yog'Sothoth" and other such where after repeated casualities and narrow escapes, eventually the players get something of a clue of what they're up against. That's when the clamoring usually starts for heavy weaponry (which is usually denied). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Precisely. We all began by setting up our characters to whatever we wanted. A good GM (Keeper in CoC) will always take that into account and run mystery scenarios early on, when your characters are still just trying to piece the horrible truth of the mythos together. But as the game progresses, the characters will begin to discover things and slowly unearth the mysteries of the mythos (the PCs are called 'investigators' rather than 'adventurers' in CoC for a good reason). As that happens, the opposition will incrase, because their investigations will not have gone completely unnoticed by the cultists of the mythos, who will sent assassins to kill them, try to frame them for whatever, or spring unspeakble monsters against them. As the game progresses, this will polarize the players, because with each confrontation, they will find their skills lacking, both in ability to physically stand against the opposition and in knowledge of their secrets (including magic). Once you get to that point, players ususally begin focusing their skills in one of those two directions - combat (which means marksmanship, weapons-ability, and physical resistance) or lore (mythos, library use, magic, etc.).

That's all good and fine. I prefer 2e, but then I've already admitted that it's probably due to reasons of nostalgia more than because it's a better game. So fair enough - I'll just have to accept that I've outgrown D&D, sad though that may be to face... Only d20 isn't content to stay D&D. If they stuck to d20 Pokemon and similar, then this wouldn't be a problem, but games like Star Wars and Call of Cthluhu have suffered from d20 IMHO, and WotC are not planning to stop there - they want d20 to spread across the entire industry. If that happens, then those alternate systems will disappear. Having entry-level RPGs is okay, since I won't have to play them, but when they begin to muscle in on the territory where I like to play, then I will object and say that these *ARE* exceedingly simplistic entry-level RPGs and not the next generation of RPG. Heck, D&D/d20 isn't even the current generation of RPG - it's the old generation of RPG, hailing all the way back to the early 70s, when D&D became the first RPG ever. RPGs have grown since then and advanced beyond its infancy. This has meant dropping outdated concepts like fixed classes, hit points, experience levels, and their ilk, since they do not represent a compelling experience that serves to suspend the disbelief of the players. Both Cthulhu 5th Ed. and Star Wars d6, though both still simple, were more mature systems than their current d20 incarnations. They were perhaps less polished, but still more mature. D20 isn't a step forward, it's a step back to the early 80s and 70s, and since it permeates the RPG industry or at least intends to, it only serves to regress the development of better RPGs and stop innovation in new games. Quite... Also true, though I should admit that my lasting CoC (5th ed) character was indeed a "brain". He was a fat parapsychologist with abysmal strength (couldn't fire any weapon without penalties...) and a growing Cthulhu Mythos. Along the way he did pick up a few nasty habits, though, particularly once per month at full moon, and for some reason he always ended up eating whatever character one of my old friends was always playing at the time, though I will defend myself by saying that the last time it happened, he was at least dead first... My character lived for about the decade we played before the campaign died, and he didn't die even then. So how did he survive so long, when he was obviously in so poor physical condition? Ah, brawns can run faster, perhaps, but it's just as much a question of knowing *WHEN* to run - ability to run fast doesn't help if I know how to run first - brain over brawn indeed I can tell we've had similar experience with Call of Cthulhu Gosh, how I miss those days (even though our Keeper was and remains an utter jerk...)

My point was that when a Mythos monster appears, you really need somebody to fight it, but it can't be the scholars, because knowing what it ismeans having at least a decent Cthulhu Mythos, and since Sanity is never above 99-Mythos, that means the higher the Mythos, the lower the sanity. And in Cthulhu ignorance truly is bliss - you're actually penalized for really knowing that the monster is, and rewarded for not knowing a damn thing about it. The scholars will have lower sanity, so they will usually fail their sanity checks and stand around shocked and screaming in the corner. The "warriors" don't know what the problem is, though, and instead just fight the monsters. This works best when the scholars know that fighting is futile, but can't say it and can't run away, because they've gone into apathy, while the others can run away, but don't have the knowledge that it is the only way to survive... Yes, Cthulhu is an evil game

It did bother me. At least there was reason for the reduced power of Revan and the Exile, but it doesn't seem that anyone wiped T3's memory (in fact, he seems to be the one erasing other droids...). Yes, I know that he was drop for game balance purposes, but it doesn't make much sense logically (Note: This is one reason why I hate experience levels...) How could Obi-Wan defeat Darth Maul, when he had just killed Qui-Gon, who was presumably far more experienced at wielding a lightsaber and using force powers? Experience levels just don't make so much sense...

Very true. Indeed, players who, in a skill-based game, all go for the same skills are in for a rude awakening. Or even worse, a player could decide to be reasonable in a lot of skills, but not brilliant in any - though such a character is diverse to some degree, he will not be very useful in the group. And the group *will* need diverse groups of skills at high levels. Take 5th edition Call of Cthulhu. That's a skill-based system. There are professions, but they really only serve to focus the character on taking up to eight skills as primary (though I don't know why they bother, since the rules say you can make up your own professions anyway, so it really is just a redundant chore...). Anyway, playing Cthulhu, you quickly learn that most (if not all) players should focus on one of two directions - good warriors/marksmen who known nothing about what the 'monsters' represent and scholars/professors who do know because they study Cthulhu Mythos. Why this is essential will become only too obvious when you meet a monster... :D

Yeah, Paranoia rules. I've heard more hilarious war stories from this game that most others, and it's not even the most played. Sadly Paranoia falls into a category of games, including such classics as Ars Magica or Cthulhu Now, that I have never had the chance to play myself

Cheap shots are fun to take. I tend to torture my PCs as much as I can <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh, I didn't just stop there - the ranger had a ring of regeneration, and so the Black Eagle tortured him to death repeatedly, then let him recover some (you cannot die from wounds if wearing a ring of regeneration according to the rules). Nasty. Wish I could say I thought of it, but it was competely stolen from Greyhawk (where Ivid the Undying does that sort of thing in the Great Kingdom, only he provides the ring himself...). As if that wasn't enough, the Black Eagle and Bargle then came up with a diabolical plan. Bargle placed an advanced Geas spell on the ranger that commanded him to 'escape' and then go to Specularum. Since the ranger is a knight of Karameikos, he may wear arms in the King's court, so he would go in there armed and then kill Stefan. He was then likely to be killed by killed the king's guards, but just in case he didn't, they also placed another spell on him.. I took the player aside and explained all this to him (except the second spell, of course), so that he could role-play the challenge. So there was a good reason why the group could escape, since Bargle and von Hendriks let him go. They forgot to include the order not to rescue his friends, however, so when he was set free, he helped them escape too (after we had played an entire gaming session where the other three character had tried in vain to escape). Basically the whole thing was a reverse form of the DDA3 Eye of Traldar adventure. The adventure is low-level, and the PCs have to sneak into Fort Doom and recover the legendary Eye of Traldar (an exceptionally powerful scrying device), which has fallen into the hands of a new wizard called Sverdlov. My PCs were all levels 12-15, but they began captured inside the dungeons of Fort Doom, and then had no spells (all spellbooks and holy symbols stolen), and they were all severely injured. So they find the eye and escape through the dungeons (which is the way inside in the adventure). But in doing so, they have set the ranger free and must discover that something is wrong before he goes to Specularum and kills Stefan. They didn't do too well, despite various clues thrown all over the place. They didn't even get the clue that the ranger, who is notorious in the group for hating cities, wanted to go to the capital more than he wanted to go and return the Eye itself to the Seer who lives among the elves of the Dymrak Forest - that should have been a pretty big clue... In the end, they figured it out, because the NPC of the adventure noted that the Eye was an item of religious importance to the traladaran faith, particularly to the Immortal Zirchev, which is the ranger's own patron. Must say I was a little disappointed that they didn't pick up on it before that... Anyway, this led to a humorous confrontation, where the wizard tried to convince the ranger (played by wife and husband respectively) that there was something wrong with him, and that he should let her cast a spell to incapacitate him. They argued back and forth for an hour, while I was biting my lip so hard from suppressing my laughter that I really should be compensated :D Eventually she did put him out with a Hold Person spell, and then they took him to Terari at the emerging School of Magecraft (AC 1010, remember). He removed the advanced Geas, but triggered the second spell, which was a Programmed Amnesia (from Spells & Magic), which made him forget everything that had happened since he was captured Is that a cheap shot? You tell me... The ranger is a mixed thyatian/traladaran male, but follows the traladaran faiths and customs. He was born in the Black Eagle barony under von Hendrik's rule, and his parents were killed under the evil reign of the Black Eagle, so there is little love lost between them. The player chose the Black Eagle as his 'Powerful Enemy' (optional disadvantage from Skills & Powers), so it was really a background choice. Over the years they've clashed several times, though it's only after the recent captured that the Black Eagle has become hated by the entire group, which was naturally the reason for my nefarious plots - it's time for the Black Eagle to fall, so all the PCs should just get to hate him enough to really enjoy it when it comes

Yes, but that just brings about the problem that the games will be competing with each other. The number potential customers is not going to grow simply because they write two games, and most people will still play only one side. Given how the poll of how people have played the KotOR games turned out, only the Jedi-version is likely to make some profit, and then only marginally so. So that doesn't strike me as a good idea either. And just think of all the wars it will spawn on the forum as to which is the "true" one

KotOR1: T3-M4. He held no interest whatsoever and was so uninterested that I never used him. Truly, whenever I purchase him, I take him from the droid shop the short way to the Sith base, have him open the door, then drop him from the party and replace him with someone else. I never use him again after that. Ever. KotOR2: G0-T0. Pretty much the same as for T3 in KotOR1 - by the time you get G0-T0 in the group, you already have a big party with a variety of skills, so there really is not reason to use him. You could say the same of Mandalore, but G0-T0 doesn't even have an interesting story to tell if you build influence with him (or is that "it"?)...

The Exile and his stalwart companions have voyaged far, had much adversity, and fought terrible enemies, but at long last their search for the Lord Revan has brought them to a cave, where the trail of Revan has led them. Exile: "Damn, it's dark." Mira: "Anyone got a flashlight" [Everybody looks at each other in the darkness...] Mandalore: "Oh, you've got to be kidding me..." HK-47: "Mocking statement: Well, at least someone doesn't need light. Being an advanced assassination droid of unrivaled sophistication has the advantage of photoreceptors, and so makes the need that meatbag eyes have of ligthting completely redundant for my humble self, master." Everyone: "Oh shut up". Visas: "What do you all need flashlights for? I can see just fine..." Handmaiden: "Well, you would... Sithspawn..." Disciple: "Now, let's all be friends here, there is no need for us to..." Everyone: "SHUT UP!!" Exile: "Well, while *I* can see in the dark like Visas, there *is* a reason why I trained you all and gave you lightsabers..." Atton: "Ah, finally a use for this thing..." [He turns on his lightsaber... the rest follow his example] Mandalore: "Finally..." Lucasarts: "Hurry up guys - the deadline is running out!" Exile (shocked): "What the... Oh, heck - well, we better hurry - cut the chatter and lets move..." [They hurry down the cavern and rush past a few monsters conveniently cut from the game... Finally they reach their destination - a mysteriously hooded figure stands before them. The figure slowly drops the hood...] Exile: "Lord Revan! Finally we found you! But what has happened to you? And why are you..." THE END - STAR WARS - KNIGHTS OF THE OLD REPUBLIC II - THE SITH LORDS DIRECTED BY OBSIDIAN PUBLISHED BY LUCASARTS... [Credits continue...] Exile: "Oh crud!!"