Jediphile

Note: I split this post in two since it became rather long. Sorry. Well, I se you're in a truculent mood. I wasn't insulted, I was re-iterating because you completely ignored my second point, and dismissed the first with insufficient care, methinks. I didn't take it personally, I merely thought you had erroneously skimmed over my points in your hurry to make a response. Still, be offended if it helps you deal with opposition, it makes no difference to me. " <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Me? If I had been offended, I would not have written the above - I would have written something much more inflamatory. I only wrote that because you wrote in your last post before that: That seems to take the discussion beyond the topic to me. But no matter - I'm going to be arguing with you over who thew the first stone - I'd much rather just be the one to stop throwing them. We can all think whatever we want about it, but if we're to accomplish anything with this discussion, then we have to look beyond what we each tend to think, since that is often tied to what we want and so far beyond any objective obsersavation. I quote the game to support my position in order to establish that it is based on what the story tells us happened and not just what I preferred to have happened. " First, and I probably confused the issue here myself, Luke didn't actually do it. Indeed it was Leia who brought him back to the light side by forcing the issue while extending a hand. Without her help, Luke would have belonged to the dark side for good. Or as he says towards the end of Dark Empire, "One jedi cannot conquer the dark side alone..." This was Ulic's mistake, too, btw. Note that both stories were written by the same author. Revan made same mistake that Ulic did - he challenged the dark side alone. But the jedi are not solitary - they always rely on each other, and probably because they know the individual is flawed and makes mistakes. Revan couldn't escape that simple truth either and so he fell. And he did more than battle the Mandalorians and hunt the Starforge. KotOR2 may have established that it was done to prepare for the greater threat of the true Sith, but even so, Revan did 'clean house' by letting lightsided jedi die on Malachor V and having the rest (or almost the rest - I'll get to that later) fall to the dark side under his command. Both of these are pretty terrible things to do. And though we may suspect that Revan initially looked for the Starforge to have a weapon against the true Sith, that is not what happened. Instead he lied to the Rakatan priests, who wanted the weapon shut down, and instead used it to create a fleet that he then promptly invaded the Republic with. He also created the HK-50 units and set them free to infect the galaxy. Maybe his choices had made him fall further than he guessed, maybe he miscalculated the Starforge's ties to the dark side and the effect that would have on him, or maybe he, as Kreia suggests, knowingly sacrificed himself for the greater good. I tend to think the latter, but then that's a personal preference, even if it is one proposed by the game. In any event, Revan fell to the dark side, totally and completely. I really cannot see it any other way. When he was captured by Bastila, however, the council changed his memories. Or as Kreia puts it, they stripped away the dark surface and allowed what was underneath to grow again. Whether that was a thing for good or evil is a choice the player makes in KotOR1. I always saw Revan as basically good, but that's just my opinion. I could go along with that, at least to a point. I do think that Revan was overwhelmed and eventually fell, though. But I also think he did so knowingly for the greater cause. Revan seems to have a tendency for self-sacrifice, which he used as a weapon. Continued below...

No need to be insulted just because I dare not to agree with you. My opinion really isn't that important, is it?

More NPCs is always good for the player, but it also means more work for the devs, and since there is only so many man-hours for each and every game, I'd rather they focused on plot first and everything else second. Number of NPCs comes some way down that list IMHO. I've actually suggested fewer potential NPCs, if that means we get better NPCs than in KotOR2. I also think the NPCs should be far more limited to dark side characters - you don't make friends by behaving like a jerk and sacrificing everyone around for your own evil ends. You could also tie the number of possible NPCs to the main character's Charisma ability, as they did in 2e AD&D - a character could have only as many NPCs as his or her Charisma modifier, for example. Oh no, now everybody will begin with Charisma 18+ in KotOR3, just out of fear that will happen Well, it's d20 combat... Not much you can do about that, I fear. Truth be told, I do like that it's at least turn-based combat, though it could certainly be a lot more strategic. But yes, it's d20, so it's basically all about hacking away at each other until somebody drops...

Yes. Which should tell us something about how "new and original" d20 really is " <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 3e is very different. Wouldnt exactly call it original, but its very different to previous versions of D&D. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think Jediphile meant it to be sarcastically.. I hope <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You know me too well! *** Influence lost ***

Stuff happens. It's been several years since I used them anyway. It's just that I put the old drive into a new PC last time. I've probably got a hardcopy up in the attic along with all the other stuff. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's like they say: Real men don't make backups... But they cry a lot

Yeah, that was pretty lame... Definitely not a selling point, so for heaven's sake DON'T!!

Oh no, Tatooine again. Well, I shouldn't put it like that, it's just that I'm so tired of seeing Tatooine show up just about every single movie, game plot and novel in Star Wars - that Tatooine was not present in KotOR2 was one of the high points. Besides, I don't really see much reasons for it here. HK-47 sets a trap for the party, they find more Naga Sadow clues, and they encounter a wayward Sith. All of this could just as easily have happened on just about any other planet (well, not Manaan perhaps...). Incidentally, Darth Aumen and Ben should be mutually exclusive - they will both follow you in the ship, but you can't take them both in the group at the same time, because they won't accept each other, and the more you use one of them in the group, the more influence you will lose with the other. The Manaan interlude is nice enough, but if it's skippable anyway, there doesn't seem to be much point. And the way he runs is so unsatisfying. If the point is that he has plot functions that cannot be met now, then I'd rather say you should let him be several levels above the main character and make him invincible as well. That way the main character can escape instead, when it becomes clear that the battle cannot be won, and you can instead have the main character run away with Darth Voult standing behind saying that it's not over and that you'll meet again. You could also have either Ben or Darth Aumen sacrifice him or herself to allow your escape. The problem with that is that it is so forced and so much like Bastila's sacrifice against Malak and Kreia's against Sion. That is unless you let the sacrificed character die. That could be rather strong, sort of like Qui-Gon's death. If you really want to be nasty, then you have the one that the main character has the highest influence with make the sacrifice, so that the main character must now use the rival, who no longer likes you so much, since you seemed to prefer his or her rival And Naboo? Oh dear - gungans! <Shudder>

How can they be on the Rim when they are unknown? Besides, who says they are on the rim? Kreia's comments clearly seems to suggest they're not. But otherwise I'd agree - a thousand years is a long time, and true Sith shouldn't just be carbon copies of Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow (though Sadow was more human than most Sith at the time). I do want to see Khar Delba and Ziost, but I don't want to see them as they were in comic books that were set a thousand years into the past. The Sith should have evolved and rebuilt their forces by now - they have new ships, new weapons, and new technology.

Yes. Which should tell us something about how "new and original" d20 really is "

Yes. Or as Chaosium might say: "Ah, another satisfied customer" :D

That's how the Empire saw it, yes, but it also cost them a lot of pilots who switched to the other side. ... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Maybe they switched due to political allegiances, a lack of commitment to the Empire, rather than to fight on the side with better ships. I don't recall too many US troops switching sides to use the Panzer Type VI TIGER I, even if the Shermans were regarded as "Purple-Heart Boxes". :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually I was referring to the blatant disregard for the lives of their pilots that the Empire demonstrated, but there you go...

Ah, okay. I misunderstood. Sorry for the confusion - mea culpa. Anyway, I included world of the Republic (Coruscant, Alderaan, Myrkr, and Sleheyron) because I don't think the player should begin as Revan or the Exile, but rather as a new, young jedi. So starting on Coruscant, I'd have the player following in Revan's footsteps through several known worlds to a few unknown ones. So there's plot reason why I chose that list, though I admit that some are there because I want them to. Alderaan is there simply because we've never explored it. Same thing about Sleheyron - we heard about it in KotOR1 and 2 (and it was actually supposed to be in KotOR1 - just check here ). Myrkr is there because I really wanted a planet, where the jedi are, for once, disadvantaged - it would be a nice twist and fit well with something I'd like to see in the ending. I could include more worlds on my list, in which case they'd all be Sith worlds, though I might not include Korriban or Malachor V, since we've seen one in two games now, and the other is destroyed. I'd much rather see Sith worlds like Ch'hodos or Rhelg.

Since it's Cthulhu, I've got to ask: Your colleagues took your hand off or the sandwich? :D Hey, in Cthulhu you never know... Anyway, serves you right - in Cthulhu you shoot first and worry... well, you just worry!

X-Wing Alliance ruled! Too bad they wouldn't let Totally Games continue to do them... They then went and did Star Trek: Bridge Commander, which also rocks (though for totally different reasons) and is without a doubt the best Star Trek game ever (not that it says much...) in my book. Then that, too, was killed, despite its success... :angry:

Confrontation with Darth Nihilus... Visas: "There he is, Darth Nihilus himself!" Nihilus: "Hmrmhggr hhhggp mmvvhhr!" Exile: "Ahem, nice Sith spawn... good sithspawn..." Mandalore: "And what a lovely singing voice you must have..."

No, I don't agree with that. It was a choice they made, because they saw the danger. That not the same was repressing it. And note how Kreia puts it: "Many believed the Mandalorians defeated at Malachor V. But the Mandalorians taught the Jedi much through battle. And so it was that Malak, Revan, and the Jedi that followed them discovered their true natures in the Mandalorian crusade." So it seems that the deciding point here is that the jedi who did fight in the Mandalorian Wars did horrible things or at least witnessed them. It's not the knowledge itself, but the experiences, particularly if they are personal. Or, to use Kreia's way of putting it, the warring jedi had been taught a lesson than the council had chosen not learn in the first place. That lesson made them all give in or fall to the dark side. The only one who resisted and rejected that lesson was the Exile.

I just played normally. I repaired HK as soon as I could, completed the quests, bought the pacifist package, got back to the ebon hawk, talked to HK and one of the lines said something like this: "Could I install this package....." (I don't remember, exactly, how the line was, but it is similar) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I seem to recall that there is a bug which allows the option to install it during the conversation to come up only if certain conditions are present. Can't remember, but I managed to install it as a male lightsider for some... humorous results If anyone remembers when the option to install it triggers, please speak up.

What collective jedi group consciousness? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You mean, the Jedi are BORG!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> "We are the Jedi - throw down your weapons and surrencer your ships. Resistance is futile!" :D

What collective jedi group consciousness? The Exile was the only one to reject the dark side - all the other jedi either died or fell to the dark side and joined Revan and Malak in the conquest of the galaxy. Don't forget that the Exile was the only one to ever return to the face the jedi council. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Eh, the very same Jedi Council that rejected the dark side I'd presume. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Precisely. I was thinking it might be: the Jedi who left to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, who repressed all the atrocities they had to commit and witness, plus the Jedi who stayed behind and repressed the fates of the millions who would die because of their inaction, their own Canterbury Cathedral Syndrome (as in Winston Churchill's enigma dilemma). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The jedi that follow Revan and Malak to fight in the Mandalorians didn't repress anything - they all either fell or gave in to the dark side as Revan and Malak did or they didn't survive at all (remember HK-47's comment about Revan 'cleaning house). The Exile was uniquely the only one of them to reject the dark side and return to the jedi coundil. The jedi council wasn't there, since they refused to enter the Mandalorian War in the first place. Hence they never committed any of the atrocities that would have made them fall to the dark side, and so there was no lure for them to repress. Not entering the war was choice, not repression.

Fallout was there ages before anyone ever heard of 3e. I played through Fallout 2 when 3e was announced and discussed, though, so when I saw some of the ideas, I thought, "Hmm, doesn't this look a bit familar?" I suppose this means d20 modern looks rather a lot like Fallout, though I don't know - I've never seen d20 modern and I plan to keep it that way. I just heard they cut down on the fixed class-thing.

That's how the Empire saw it, yes, but it also cost them a lot of pilots who switched to the other side. Yes and no. Capital ships are important (we all want our own Star Destroyer, go on and admit it ), but the empire believed in overwhelming the enemy with superior numbers rather than superior technology. I believe it says somewhere that TIE fighters are always supposed to work in groups of no less than three, and that they counted three TIEs for every X-wing... That might have been from one of the X-wing games, though.

In the interest of getting this topic back on track, I'll share another warstory from the RPG front. This falls under the heading "most embarrasing character death", though I should hasten to note that I was not the player of said character (or I might be too embarrassed to share this...) The game is Call of Cthulhu. We were playing "Walker in the Wastes" IIRC, and were sidetracked to Scotland on a red herring mission, though we didn't know that at the time. By a great lake (obvious Nessie potential here, but we never saw any of it) we were exploring some clues. I forget which, but it doesn't matter. Our group came across these ancient ruins, which seemed both ominous and yet with the potential for secrets to unearth (or perhaps because of it...). Searching through it, we discovered it to be large, so naturally we split the group... Yes, I know - "Hey, this looks dangerous... Let's split up!" Exploring the rooms, we found a few interesting things. One seemed to be an ancient torture chamber. Another was a plain and empty stony room with only a bucket in it, which was full of some foul-smelling liquid that might have been urine or worse. Suddenly members of one of the groups began to feel very warm. Hot even. So hot, in fact, that they felt like they were burning up! The GM (or Keeper) made sure to ask the players what they would do. One rushed all the way outside and jumped into the lake the cool off, which probably saved his life. My character was exploring the empty stone room, when suddenly another of the 'overheated' investigators came running in, shouting in agony over burning up. It was obvious too, as the GM described how his skin was literally cracking open from heat. But before we could react, the poor guy rushed across the room, grabbed the bucket, and emptied its foul contents over his head... and then he burned up completely! Still wondering whether to shudder or laugh at that one, but I find it more healthy to do the latter

Well, Fallout had experience levels too, and you got new 'perks' exactly every third level... Sounds a lot like 3e to, except with slight expanded skill rules (and none of that max. skill level tied to experience level crap) and no fixed class (since you only made one character). Also, we did get monster-slashing xp in Fallout. I know I've hunted radioactive deserts of dry of mutated monsters looking for xp... " For CRPGs my standards are lower, since it's so rare to find one that's just worth playing at all, and Fallout 1 and 2 were among the best. I mean, I play KotOR even though it has d20 written all over it and suffers from it, so... I wouldn't play a KotOR tabletop RPG, though - there are simply too many other good RPGs out there for it to even compete for my interest.

Agreed. The Sith planet should be new. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why would Sith worlds like Khar Delba (and Khar Shian) or Ziost be outer rim worlds? It's true that the fleet of Empress Teta followed Naga Sadow back to the Sith empire, but note how the name of the system they went to is never mentioned in "Fall of the Sith Empire" - there is nothing to suggest the Republic has any knowledge of worlds like Ziost. The fact that the Daragons were held captive on Ziost proves nothing, since they were taken there as prisoners and taken away by Naga Sadow in secret. Khar Delba could be known, since Jori escaped to the Republic from there (and so would have the hyperspace coordinates), except everyone ignores her warnings and the ship is confiscated before anyone can copy the logs (indeed, it seems unlikely anyone obtained them, since Ssk Kahorr appeared very interested in keeping the matter secret so he could use the ship to explore the hyperspace routes for his own benefit alone). Korriban is obviously known, but note what Kreia says at the end of KotOR2, when she tells the Exile about Revan: "It is because he remembered what lay buried here - this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, you know, the remnants here. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark." So clearly Kreia is referring to the Sith Empire that Naga Sadow was the dark lord of and more than suggests that they threat of the "true" Sith comes from there. And the central world of that empire is Ziost until otherwise established. Don't forget that just because we've heard about these worlds in Star Wars canon (or EU), that doesn't mean that they are known to the Republic.

How do you figure that?