Jediphile

Well, I originally played (LS) as Sentinel/Weapon Master, but I just played through the DS side as Sentinel/Sith Lord, and I must say the latter gave far more enjoyment rules-wise, since I had massive access to force powers at my disposal with not very noticeable differences in lightsaber usage (still dual weapon)... If I play again as LS, which I intend once the Restoration Project is done or near to, I'll be sure to play as Sentinel/Jedi Master. I prefer the Sentinel in KotOR2 because skills really are rather important - there are lots and lots of areas in the game, where you can use your skills to great benefit, unlike KotOR1, where those areas were relatively few, and even then only some skills were relevant (notably Persuasion for dialogue options and Repair to upgrade HK-47). So while I'd choose scout/guardian in KotOR1 every time, in KotOR2 it will be Sentinel/Jedi Master or Sentinel/Sith Lord. I put my stats like this: Str 12, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14. Raising stats above 14 (but not to 14 itself) costs two 'points' instead of one, so I don't do that, since it costs too many potential bonuses on other stats. You'll want high Wis and Cha for your force powers (and persuasion), high Int for extra skill points and dialogue options (I use my two first attribute boosts at levels 4 and 8 to raise my Int to 16). In KotOR2 you'll also want good Con so you can use implants (once my Int is 16, I build Con with boosts until it's 18). Dex had higher priority in KotOR1 because it affected both AC and lightsaber attacks, but in KotOR2 attacks are not subject to Dex (unless you have Finesse, which I don't want to buy), so I place more priority on Str. For Sentinels I believe it's Demolitions and Repair that are cross-class skills, and since I want Demolitions to retrieve mines on Peragus, I always take that as a class skill with a feat during character creation (Repair when I get a new feat). For skills I place priority on Persuasion - always Persuasion (since only the PC can take it...)! Next are Repair and Computer Use (to upgrade T3 and HK-47), but Demolitions (for mines) and Security (for locks) are also important. Don't stop building Demolitions until it's above 20 ranks, though, because there are lots and lots of powerful mines you can retrive (and even get xp for it) once you go after Goto on Nar Shaddaa. If there is one skill I don't build much, it's usually Treat Injury, since you just don't need it once you have any of the Healing powers (or else you can just wait around to heal...), so it's mostly useful when creating stuff on the workbench...

Vin Diesel as Malak?

Fair enough... Anyways: Evil Atton: "Look, I didn't want to say anything, but you've forced my hand. That power is corrupting you. You're starting to get creases..." Evil Exile: "Oh yeah, maybe you should take a look at yourself" [Holds up a mirror to Atton's face] Evil Atton: "OH GOD!! MOMMY!!" [Runs away crying] Evil Exile [to other companions]: "What? I'm supposed to be evil, right?"

Geez, if you hate the thread that much, then why do you even bother reading? Quoting yourself over and over will not make me stop posting, if I find it amusing, and it doesn't seem like it'll stop anyone else either... On that note: Visas: "My life for yours..." Exile: "Okay, stop it now - it's getting old!"

Very extensive. I do believe including all the relevant material from the compendii in the core books was one motivation behind the 4th edition (in fact, they say so in the introduction...). To give you an estimate, the first book, "Characters", is 330+ pages long and is almost exclusively about character creation with Advantages from p.32-118, Disadvantages p.119-166, and Skills p.167-232. So the compendii should be completely obsolete if you get the "Characters" book.

Can't say I agree there. Aliens was war, yes, but Alien was really too scary by half - even before they reached the planet. The claustrophobic feel of being trapped on the Nostromo with the alien being able to hide *anywhere* still sends shivers down my spine. Aliens instead just went crazy throwing aliens left and right. Still good, but not as toxic as the orginal. Would agree there, though...

Sorry, but isn't that a very hypothetical question? The chances of Obsidian or whoever gets to develop K3 using any of our ideas seem exceedingly remote to me to say the least...

Arnold Schwarzenegger as HK-47? :D

I'm no expert on 3rd edition GURPS, but it seems to me like they wanted to avoid alienating the existing fanbase at all costs, so most of the old material should still be valid. The Compendii might be outdated, though. Check the FAQ and make sure to check the Ludography also.

LA Developer:What?!I can't understand you! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nihilus: "Mhhhhhllggg hrrrrggghrrlllmmm!!" [Translation: "I said the microphone doesn't work!"] LA Developer: "What?"

Well, I still post because I remain hopeful that the discussion might lead to some sort of constructive conclusion at some point or at least give us insight into topic. Since Lancer is still posting, I'm assuming he sees it the same way. No, I haven't budged and neither has Lancer, but we might. I always try to go into a discussion with my eye on the possibility that I might be wrong, though someone will have to tell me why before I accept it. And granted, I don't change my mind easily. But I do try to keep an open mind (though I may not always succeed...). Haven't heard many arguments yet to sway me, though, but that might still happen.

CoC has fans due to its ways of presenting horror, not because of the system itself. The skill system is fine, and the sanity rules are excellent, but the rest is, well, a bit lacking, as you say... " Yes, it does. I wrote all my house rules down and then created a Yahoo!Group where it was available to the players whenever. The problem is, however, that once you're spread out over at least six rulebooks (PHB, DMG, Skills&Powers, Combat&Tactics, Spells&Magic, High Level Campaigns...) as well as my 40+ pages of tightly written house rules, the players just give up and stop reading through it all I use it extensively, but then most of my favorite characters are wizards... :"> No, they're demi-humans, so like elves they would tend toward the fighter/class multi-class. Though I do believe there were rules on TSR's site that said they could be cleric/mages, which is relevant. Never came up, though, since the PCs all hate them after they kicked the elves out of Alfheim. I give characters the choice of classes, though. So while OD&D elves were always fighter/mages by AD&D terminology, I don't see why they can't be whatever they want to. I've had elven thieves and bards in my campaign...

Agreed. The NWP system they introduced to replace it in Skills & Powers is infinitely much better - I switched on the spot and never looked back.

Still not sure what I'd choose. GURPS Fantasy is an option since I was curious about 4th edition GURPS and bought the core books. I'm not going to bother converting all the spells of those nations, though. I rarely have players with characters from those nations (though my own favorite D&D PC was...). And even if it did become relevant, I'll simply just introduce specific skills to replace the spells on a general basis, sort of like Ars Magica, which has an excellent magic system. Actually never played much GURPS, so it's not a particularly apt argument. There might have been alternatives back then, but I began playing D&D back in 86, and we were few, so I had to go with whatever the other players were into. By the time I joined, they had already invested a lot in OD&D (which became the Mystara campaign), so whatever I did as a GM had to support that. Since I didn't like the OD&D principle of "rewrite all the skills and introduce X new classes with each supplement"-approach, we found 2e to be a reasonable compromise. I didn't know any better at the time, but even if I had, I wouldn't have had much choice. Because I find that skill-based system will allow me options that class-based will not. I did give a few examples, but fine. The ranger in my campaign is really annoyed that he cannot develop as a master archer, because the rules won't allow him to attain weapon high mastery with his bow. I tweaked the rules to allow it, but I can bend the rules only so far before game balance goes out the window, so he had to pay five times the cost that single-classed fighters pay for the same priviledge, and he had to be level 15 instead of 9 to do it. Isn't it rather odd that rangers aren't allowed to be master archers in 2e even with Player Option rules? Also, why don't rangers have spells that aid their weapons? A bow would be a fairly common weapon for an ranger, yet Flame Arrow and similar are all wizard spells, and since you cannot do the ranger/mage combo in 2e, the option to combine is not available to the ranger at all. 3e has an Arcane Archer prestige class that does this, but I don't like that since it just tries to fix a broken class structure by introducing yet more classes. Similarly in d20 Star Wars. Luke and Anakin were both natural pilots (and not just because of the force - lots of jedi aren't good pilots, Obi-Wan for one), yet you can't be one in d20 Star Wars. Nope, to be good pilot you need to develop the pilot skill and then take the Starship Ace (or even Jedi Ace) prestige classes... That's rigid and contrary to good character development. Was Han Solo a Starship Ace? He might have been, but it doesn't fit his archetype of scoundrel very well if he was... Besides, you need to have 9 pilot ranks and +6 base attack, meaning at least six levels, and I doubt the common rebel or imperial pilot can qualify for that. Silly... Why can't I keep developing my soldier with focus on piloting skills and get the same bonus? Also, why can't wizards do healing spells in AD&D? Never understood that, and I tweaked the rules and introduced healing spells for wizards, only they are so limited and comes with a disadvantage that means no wizard has ever pursued it in my campaign (except for a few of my own NPCs, of course).

What's wrong with CoC? It's a pretty good game, as far as I can tell, and I still intend to play it (5th edition, I mean), if I can find the players for it. There really are only two areas where it's really lacking. One is the completely absense of a traits/flaws system, and the other is the very simplistic damage/injury rules, which is admittedly about as bad as D&D. The Keeper in the campaign I played it tweaked the latter, though, and replaced it with a combat system he stole from another game. Not sure which, but I think it might have been Twilight 2000. I'd agree with you that the Player Option rules help, but once you go there you have the same problem that's been bogging GURPS for years - tons of rulebooks spread out all over Hell... I hate that when I to look something up, I must first look in the PHB/DMG, then check to see if there is a revision in one of the Player Option books, then check to see if I made revisions in my own house rules. That middle part shouldn't be there at all. It's especially bad with wizards and priests, since they were revised first in Skills & Powers and then again in Spells & Magic.. As for the Planewalker's Handbook, yes, I have that, but I doubt many other AD&D players do (or else Planescape might have lived...), so it would not be considered core AD&D rules by most playser, I guess... I tweaked them and introduced a few hard rules to stop the exploitation, which promptly meant that nobody plays them in my campaign. Still, they are possible. And as much trouble as they may cause, they are still there right in the 2e rules. I take your dismissal of them as an indication that you also find dual-classes flawed, but then that just underscores my point of why they let them stay there as is, when they were so obviously flawed? That doesn't exactly inspire much confidence in the game design...

Hmm, Ashton Kutcher as Revan...? :D [ducks for cover!]

This topic is too much fun to allow to die yet, so I'll bump it with the following (yes, I know it's bad...) Kreia: "They were the Lost Jedi, you know. The true Jedi, upon which the future will..." Exile: "LA-LA-LA - I CAN'T HEAR KREIA, BUT SHE'S STILL TALKING!"

Sorry, but seriously, yes. Goto is really just a hologram and nothing more. GOTO even shows how he put it together from a standard program to suit his needs. That's why "Goto" never appears in person in KotOR2 and why he has all that control of droids on Nar Shaddaa. If you asked the right question back on Citadel Station above Telos, you may have heard the Ithorians mention that they had another droid assigned, but that it was lost somehow. Basically foul play by Czerka is inferred there, but GOTO actually reveals the truth - he was that droid, and he was given an order to save the Republic, which caused a paradox in his (or its) programming since he could not do so without breaking the laws. The whole thing is basically a inspired by HAL in 2001, which is a nice way to salute sci-fi in general IMHO.

Not sure if I'd call it a mistake, but you're right that KotOR3 is basically committed to the whole true Sith conflict now, which they used as a means to get Revan out of the plot and make room for a new PC (Exile), but then they don't reveal that until they drop it as a bombshell at the very end of the game. So it's a mistake if they want KotOR3 to be untied to the previous games, in which case they should have made the relevation earlier and then have the Exile join Revan in the fight against the true Sith about halfway through the game.

I think what the influence system needs in a KotOR3 is more of a DS/LS axis. I mean, it's pretty stupid that Handmaiden or Bao-Dur or whomever keeps bugging the PC about doing evil things and losing influence when they are themselves pretty evil already. And that's aside from the rather silly idea of a horribly dark-sided Atton telling you about how Kreia is a bad influence and how it's really showing by now. Ahem, ever tried taking a look in the mirror, Atton? You know, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones... " Instead there should have been a LS/DS (or good/evil) division depending on which side the character is being switched to. Star Wars morality is pretty simple (and exceedingly black and white), so you shouldn't need more than two mentalities per character. I like how in some cases a character will react negatively, but can be persuaded to see things from your side instead. The problem in KotOR2 was that this manifested itself as the 'Kreia effect' and so was a sort of "Deux ex Machina" device outside player control, when it really should have been subject to your use of the persuasion skill or even Force Persuade...

I find that on the PC, the optimal time to change gear is just before the bar goes into red. The green bar (or is it yellow? I'm not certain...) ends with this rather large "unit" that separates green from red, and just as it hits that, you can change gear by pressing the left mouse button. Usually works for me, unless I get overzealous and press too soon Btw, yes, the Telos race is broken, since you can only race once and only against the best time, which is difficult to beat. I've managed to beat all the race times on Onderon, though, and I'm horrible at this sort of thing, so if I can do, then most of you should have a good change Whether to use the mouse or the A and D buttons for left and right is a good question, though. I find the mouse (or trackball in my case) to be a little unreliable, but there are times, particularly on Onderon, where you need very precise flying to hit neither mines nor rocks, so...

I had AD&D 2e working fine ten years ago, but what was fine then is not good enough today. 3e should have been the new step, and it failed miserably to carry D&D forward. I've been patching AD&D holes ever since, but there comes a time when you have to tear down before you can build because the foundation is ruined. I find it easier to scratch AD&D altogether and build something new than continuing to patch it together. This boat is leaking and it will sink... If I can find a better Fantasy RPG system, then why should I bother? And I am, I take it? Okay, I'll bite - which RPG that I like am I trying to convince people to play? A nice way of avoiding to offer counterarguments. This is now the second time in two posts you've inferred that I have a hidden agenda. Please stop doing so. My argument is that class-based games are inflexible and rigid, and I have argued that consistently. Please don't try to infer otherwise. Especially not if you're not interested in offering counterarguments. I've been arguing that fixed classes are inflexible and rigid, and so prevent the creation of good characters in every post... Sorry you missed it Also simple - you don't. If he likes hack'n slash and Roll-playing over Role-playing, then that's his business. I've had players in my campaign who criticised how I GM because they wanted more monster slashing and dungeon crawl rather than plot and character development. I had to tell that I cannot GM such a campaign because I don't enjoy them, and I can't fairly GM a campaign I don't enjoy or don't care about. Then we parted ways, and that was fair enough. Please don't quote me (or anyone else) for stuff I have never said. I have said that I find D&D rules to be limiting due to their inflexibility and I have demonstrated why I feel that way. Go back and read the first post of this topic, and you'll see that I said I would do just, and I've been consistent in doing so since then. The conclusion you arrive at here is precisely why I have never argued taste in this topic - taste is individual, and I told people in the first post that if they liked D&D, then they might want to stay clear, since I would say why I did not. My taste better than your's? Nonsense. I might just as well argue that you're now trying to make this argument personal on the basis that I willfully say things that will cause dissent, and so infer that I should stop doing that. I'm sorry that I seem to think my arguments here are just vague attempts at proving my own superioty. However, I will not be silenced simply because you don't like my arguments against the inflexibility of D&D. If my comments here have that effect on you, then you might be better served by not reading this topic at all. I want to play a blind human who has the ability to foretell the future through his magic. Does AD&D have rules for that? I want to play a knight with amnesia, who used to be the greatest warrior in the world, but who has forgotten his past due to some traumatic experience and now serves as a waiter in a tavern. Does AD&D have rules for that? I want to play a wizard who worked as a spy in his nation, but was framed by someone and is now on the run. He is really sneaky and sly and a master at innuendo and making the perfect comeback, but he has a scar on his arm from a magical fight with his arch enemy which gives him chronic pains at inopportune moments. Does AD&D have rules for that? The answer to all of the above is no. You can't make characters like that in AD&D. But you can in lots of other RPGs. You could tweak AD&D to fit them in, but it'll be on the fly as to what the GM will allow and not something that is in the rules. You can't even do this in 3e, even though many other games allowed for things like this years (if not decades) before 3e came out...

I was playing before then. I played when 2e hit the streets. Back then it looked good. It doesn't today. That still leaves us with no RPG system ever being good or bad... Build a bridge and get over it... Maybe not, but that doesn't mean that the core system isn't still inflexible and rigid. Maybe you can make up for the inflexibility of classes in your game, but that doesn't mean that they're not there and that they present a problem in general. I'm certain they will. Can't agree with you there. Call of Cthulhu 5th edition was skill-based and yet it took half the time it took to make up new AD&D 2e characters... And it's not as if we didn't have practice in both - we may have played AD&D for years first, but we died more often in CoC That goes in any game, even AD&D. I introduced a new player to AD&D a few years ago - still took hours to explain the basics of the system to her and help her choose her class. Her choice was made faster by the fact that the group needed a wizard - she ended up liking the character, but the fact remains that the choice was not made by her but by the inflexibility of the rules, which I find difficult to see as something good. Ah, but that criticism is doubly relevant against (A)D&D, if not more so, since the archetypes are far more strongly enforced there than in any skill-based game. After all, D&D archetypes are not just limited - they're completely fixed! What, I'm not allowed to voice criticism over the system? Sure I can fix things on my own, but the question still is why I should have to - should the game be flawless and bugfree before I buy it? AD&D is less subject to this criticism than 3e simply on the basis of its age, but that doesn't mean it's without flaws - as written in 2e, the dual-class rules present a gaping hole for exploitation that simply begs players to take advantage of it if they are also lucky enough to have the stats for it.

Better distinction, yes, but I remain quite certain that there will not be distinct and different paths for the LS and DS choices in a KotOR3, since that would make the game very costly to produce. But then I have been trolling against in the past for saying so... "

I suppose they are the lost jedi in the sense that they hold the potential of of the future of the jedi, only the destruction of the order meant that they never reached that potential until the Exile chanced upon them. Note how Kreia puts it (even in the DS ending): "They were the Lost Jedi, you know. The true Jedi, upon which the future will be built. They simply needed a leader, and a teacher." I take that to mean that had the Jedi order not been brought down by the Jedi Civil War, they likely would all have been trained as jedi because their potential was great. Of course, you could argue that it's then extremely convenient that they all just happen to cross the Exile's path, but then that might also simply be the will of the Force (which Kreia hates) guiding their actions toward the Exile...