Jediphile

I certainly did in my first game as LS male. So I'd have to agree with... Unabomber? Gee, how often does that happen?

Honestly, how anyone can take offense at Cleese's comments is beyond me. The whole thing is so wonderfully absurd to me that it's a pure joy to read. But then again, I'm a Python-fan, and absurdity is what Pythonesque humor is all about. I love that he says there will be a questionnaire to see whether anyone noticed the change Gee, now I'm thinking back to all the American/English bashing in "A Fish Called Wanda"... Otto: "You know what the problem is with you English? You don't like winners..." Leach: "Winners?" Otto: "Yes. Winners!" Leach: "Winners like... North Vietnam?" Otto: "SHUT UP!! We did NOT lose Vietnam - it was a tie!!" Hilarious... I recommend the film. And don't think it's all America bashing - there's plenty that goes the other way too EDIT: But I'd agree with Mr. Cleese about point 15 - it's driving me crazy too

For me it's Vader first. I mean, this guy strangles his own admirals... Nasty! Second would be Nihilus. Very cool, but wasted potential in K2. Third? Not sure. I love Palpatine/Sidious (or maybe it's just Ian McDiarmid's acting), but Kreia is the most lovable manipulative b****, while Sion is just spooky and hauting to even think about.

You're welcome. I guess I just love speculating about the surprises they have in story. Not that I like games that are intentionally mysterious and deliberately leave things vague and unsaid. But I don't get that impression in K2.

I think you should bring this to the attention of the Restoration Project. I don't know that stuff was cut here, but given that it seems incomplete, it might be a possibility. Anyone know of voice files on this subject that are unused?

Kreia: "You come with questions... [*sigh*] Ask, and I will answer." Exile: "Fine. How quick can my lightsaber cut that smugness out of your voice?"

If you really want a total spoiler and quick guide to all the game's secrets, then just check the FAQ/Walkthrough by Dan Simpson. It's the most detailed and comprehensive guide/spoiler to the game I've seen, but be aware that you'll spoil the game completely. You have been warned. You can find the guide here.

SLA core mechanics meets GURPS character creation.. A match made in heaven. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's the sort of thing I was toying with in my homebrewed rules. I ran into trouble with the combat system, though, because I found it difficult to create a combat system that had enough options to be both fast and strategic. How do you reconcile genuine combat options with a fast-paced battle resolution mechanic?

Agreed, but it's the way Kreia puts it after the escape, as you mentioned above, from Peragus that I question. Kreia: "You were difficult to find, but... coincidence was on our side. When I learned that you were on the vessel, I knew the Sith would not be far behind. When we intercepted the Harbinger, it was crippled, drifting in space. It was a simple matter to board the vessel and rescue you. Unknown to me, however, the Sith were already on board. Just as we made the jump to hyperspace, they fired upon us, nearly destroying the Ebon Hawk" Now, noting what the Harbinger's captain says in his logs, the part about the Ebon Hawk finding the Harbinger drifting in space is clearly less than true. She certainly knew that the Sith were there, since she had just been attacked by them herself and then played dead on the Ebon Hawk. The log mentions that T3 was badly damaged, yet T3 is fine during the prologue, and I doubt the Harbinger crew repaired him, so now I'm beginning to wonder if Kreia didn't lie about the whole thing and manipulated it to her advantage. First she approaches the Harbinger, but then Sion's warship attacks the Ebon Hawk and damages it, killing most of the crew. The Ebon Hawk sends out a distress call and the Harbinger responds, arriving on the scene timely enough to stop the Sith attack, since the warship is now outgunned. Now Kreia sees a chance to manipulate the circumstances to her advantage. She realizes that the Sith will now attempt deception and stealth over confrontation and capture the Harbinger that way, so she tries to do the same. She switches off T3 and then plays dead until the the Harbinger is brought aboard the Harbinger, and then she waits until the Sith make their move. In the ensuing confusion, she hurries to find the Exile and brings him aboard the Ebon Hawk, turns T3 back on and then flees the Harbinger. HK-50 just barely manages to get aboard. The Sith have now taken control of the Harbinger, though, and fires at the Ebon Hawk just as it makes the jump to Hyperspace, causing massive damage to the ship and knocking out Kreia, who slips into her healing meditation. T3 then saves the ship as we see in the prologue.

Sometimes you just have to speak with a different tongue ... as for IT ... IT was lost long ago in a distant land known as the Black Isle 41682074686520706F776572206F66204F6374616C206E6F772062726F7567687420746F20796F75 0696E20486578203A4400 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I can see it now: "Fionavar - the Matrix has you..." :D

Hey, no need to apologize. I honestly see the fact that you take inspiration from my own plot as praise, especially when you credit me for it up front. All the plots we have suggested have been criticized one way or another (including my own), but between us we might think of something good. As for your Myrkr plot, I think you should detail it a bit more, particularly the signficance of the Ysalamiri. It doesn't seem to come across clearly that they prevent force powers, which should probably be a high point of the adventures on Myrkr. I like Grudo Tan, though. We don't have nearly enough "good" rodians in Star Wars. Hadn't thought of settlers on Myrkr myself, but I don't see a problem with it. Still think the native Neti should be mentioned at some point. That doesn't fit well with Sadow's known history, but we can make up excuses for it. For example that a jedi found the holocron and was hunted by the Sith and was then shot down over Myrkr and crashlanded. Or the Sith could have found it and been hunted to Myrkr by the jedi. The hunters then went down to the planet, but because their force powers were lost to them, both sides were killed by the vornskrs and the holocron lost. The Sith are on Myrkr because they are looking for it. The jedi have known about its presence here for a while (which is why the PC knows), but they left it there thinking that it would best be prevented from abuse by the Sith on a force-empty world. The current crisis has changed that, however, and now the jedi need to find the holocron before the Sith do.

Kreia will always turn up at that point whether you took her in the active party or not. So yes, you "fail" even then. It's not a failure, though - it's a significant event of the story, the outcome of which is dictated by the plot.

Yes Well, at least as far as Kreia is concerned

Nobody would have even asked question of whether KotOR was a waste when K1 was still on its high. The problem comes with the fact that K1 was really an exclusive game with a definite ending, which they then wanted to do a sequel to. Given how different the DS and LS endings of K1 are, it's a real bitch trying to fit it all together in one succeeding storyline. In that sense I think K2 succeeded, though. I don't agree with those who criticize K2 for its plot. I thought the plot was strong and deep and had interesting characters. It speaks volumes to me that *everybody* really hates Kreia. Nobody likes or admires her. That tells me she was a triumph of a character as the sly manipulator. And the plot of her intentions is complex and interesting in my eyes. The problem with K2 is that it's open-ended. It does not have a clear-cut "hero wins, gets the girl (or guy) and saves/rules the galaxy"-ending like K1. That makes it less epic than its predecessor or at least seem to be. I don't agree that this makes the plot weak or boring, though. I do agree that the plot was cut to pieces by the cut content, however. But I cannot criticize the underlying plot on that basis. It wasn't the plot but the execution that was disappointing to me. And K2 has left a lot of unanswered clues to what might happen in a K3. No, I'm not talking about the cut content, but things that are and were always meant to mysterious and ambiguous in K2. There are clues in there to what might happen next. I've analyzed a few of these on these boards, and I honestly can't wait to play K3 and see whether I was right or not. To me that doesn't make KotOR a waste in the least. It does make it difficult for me to tell whether K2 was good or not before I see K3, though.

I've actually heard that conversation from HK-47, this the above part I had forgotten. Thanks for pointing it out. Seems Revan did indeed sabotage HK-47 on purpose, which also serves to explain why he is damaged in the cargo hold of the Ebon Hawk. As for Kreia's statement that the Ebon Hawk boarded the Harbinger and retrieved the Exile, I consider her comments to be something less than truthful given what the captain of the Harbinger notes in his log: Crewman: "Everyone on the Ebon Hawk was dead, sir... we're starting autopsies within the hour." Captain: "What about that Sith corpse we retrieved from the warship? Crewman: "'We haven't had a chance to fully examine it, sir - he looks human, but he's... fractured in several places.' Captain: "Keep me posted. Something's wrong here, and I want to know where all those Sith on the warship went." Another log tells us: Captain: "Report." Crewman: 'The Sith warship is empty, sir - we attached a umbilical and sent three strike teams through it, and there's no sign of a crew... or its commander.' Captain: "There's no one on board? What about the escape pods?" Crewman: "They're still in their berths, sir - this place, it's empty - it's like a ghost ship." Captain: "Then who was firing at the freighter?" Crewman: "We don't know, sir - the freighter's empty, too, we did a clean sweep, and nothing except a lone T3 unit, badly damaged. Did you still want it tractor beamed to the Harbinger?" Captain: "Search the freighter and the warship one more time - if they're clean, then we'll tractor the freighter over." Crewman: "Yes, sir." Captain: {To himself, a little quieter}"No idea why the admiral thought that freighter worth all the effort, but we'll find out." Now, from this it is quite clear that there was a battle between the Ebon Hawk and Sion's Sith warship, that the Ebon Hawk was damaged, and that the Harbinger arrived just in time to interrupt the battle before the Sith could capture, destroy or board the Ebon Hawk. Now, the Harbinger is a pretty heavily armed ship, I think. If you look at the end battle of K1, you'll see that the Harbinger is the same class of ship that the Republic uses as capital ships during the battle to destroy the Star Forge (same type of ship that Dodonna and Vandar were on). That being the case, the Sith warship probably found itself outgunned, so instead they activated their stealth units and infiltrated the Harbinger. Besides, they were here for the "last Jedi" too and probably always intended to lure the Harbinger into a trap. When the Ebon Hawk showed up, however, they had to remove the "competition". Note that the Harbinger received a distress call from the Ebon Hawk being under attack, which doesn't fit with what Kreia tells the Exile.

Well, the Exile could have 'succeeded' in Kreia's eyes by reaching the conclusion that the choice of the individual would always have more significance than the will of the Force itself, and that all the power the Jedi and Sith gain through the Force is therefore ultimately hollow and unimportant, since they're just being used by the will of the Force. But naturally, you don't get the option to say anything like that.

Don't worry about it. The game's plot is pretty linear, and this is one of the times it shows most. What happens next is supposed to happen. I finished the DS side recently and it did the exact same thing to me. I know it sounds all dimissive as if you'd done something wrong or said something wrong, but I pretty certain any answer will lead to that ending, and I know that Kreia will drain you leave you for dead no matter what you do. So just keep following the plot, and it'll all become clear (well, more or less...). You will understand at the end that Kreia will leave you no matter what at that point.

You're forgetting that I introduced replacment jedi "masters" at the beginning of the story in case the Exile's companions were all DS, in which case they would fight Nihilus. No, they won't have the same connection to the Exile, so the story will work better if Exile is set to LS, but I did take the DS optioin into consideration. Actually, Visas is a problem, because it's quite likely that she's dead - sacrificed during the battle with Nihilus in K2. If Exile is DS, I'll be assuming that Visas is quite dead because the Exile was quite willing to sacrifice her, and if Exile is LS, I'll be assuming that he was not prepared to sacrifice her as a pawn in a game for power. I really didn't use the Exile's companions in the DS Exile part of my plot at all. If Exile is DS, then I could do something with Atton, though. He could be the leader of the Sith following Revan on his base on Khar Shian, but for a really nasty twist, DS Atton could be the leader of the Sith assassins on Alderaan, and he could be the one who kills the new PC's master. But I digress... As others have said, the chances that any of these ideas - mine or anyone else's - will ever be used in a K3 are astronomical. I do think it's fun to speculate, though.

Well, I was wondering if the mods would close down their own thread over spamming. I guess they're unto us... :D

I agree that K2 was always intended to an open "Empire Strikes Back" sort of ending. I do not agree, however, that it has one. Where ESB did end open with several plots unresolved, it did tie off that part of the story. Compare that to the end of K2, where we have severel unfinished plots, such as: The Goto vs. Remote sequnce - what happened there? What happened to the Exile's friends - they all went *poof* once you hit Malachor... The Bao-Dur transmission could be taken as if he died. Did he? What happened to the Force Bond between the Exile and Kreia? They say it could be lethal to the other if one of them died, and yet she dies at the end with no explanation of how this is no problem to the Exile. This is all different from ESB in that it was clearly defined at the end of that story what had happened and what was yet unresolved. At the end of ESB I was thinking "gee, I wonder what happens next...". At the end of K2 it was more along the lines of "WTF?"

Yes, but I had them all as the would-be "masters" of the emerging "council" on Coruscant trying to rebuild the order, because Kreia said that they were the "lost jedi upon which the future will be founded". They wouldn't be rebuilding the order on Coruscant if they were all dark side, though. And I never put any of them as NPCs in the group, just as cameo appearances for LS Exile, because I needed them for a big revelation.

Maybe he went to the unknown regions to fight the true... No wait, damn... "

Yes, but note that those returns were all optional in my plot - if you set Revan to DS, for example, then you won't be meeting Jolee, because Revan killed him. Similarly, all of the Exile's companions will be replaced by other jedi if you chose for the Exile to be DS. And Carth can continue to be replaced by Admiral Cede. Mandalore will survive in any event, though he has little significance in the plot, and Hanharr I will assume to be alive in any event - if Exile was DS then he was a companion who survived, and if Exile was LS, then Mira refused to kill Hanharr on Malachor - just as K2 insists that LS Revan made Ajunta Pall's spirit on Korriban return to LS whether you actually succeeded in that task in K1 or not, and that was actually a hard result to achieve. True, I did put those characters in my plot, but I did write them as Carth is written in K2 - with a replacement in case of being dead. Besides, those characters are all dead only in one incarnation of the game, whereas we're told that Vandar is dead no matter which side you play or set Revan to. Also, those characters were not central to my plot - they were mostly just cameos or characters that did not stay in the group.

They just let you get the impression, but there are two points in the game, where it's more than implied. The first is when Mandalore talks with Kreia and mentions clan Ordo, and Kreia then mentions Revan and how Mandalore has ties to him, which leaves little doubt for those, who played the first game. It's completely revealed by Kreia's prophecies at the end, though. When the Exile asks about Mandalore, she replies, "Many battles does that one have left in him... as Revan intended. A general needs an army, as he needs those he trusts. And Canderous is a loyal beast, no matter how much he is broken upon Revan's will." So while Mandalore doesn't actually say it out loud, Kreia certainly does.

I didn't mean the age so much as the attitude. Kurt Russell used to have attitude that fit Canderous, when he played Snake Plissken in "Escape from New York", for example, but I don't think he has the attitude now. EDIT: If we need an aging Canderous, then why not Gene Hackman - he has attitude (just watch Crimson Tide)!