Jediphile

I'd agree that KotOR games are rather too liberal in handing out high-tech stuff and arbitrarily assigning it to people like Exar or Ulic with little or no regard to the context. Also, it hands it out in stupid ways at times. Exar Kun's battle armor should be unique, yet if you're "lucky" you can find several examples of it via the random loot - that's not what I would call well designed. Besides, what battle armor would Exar Kun have? He was a sith (and jedi before that) and I don't think we ever saw him (that I remember off the top of my head) wear battlearmor of that kind. Why would we? It would have interefered with his force powers, and somehow I don't see him compromising those. It tastes far too much like some gear they thought up and then randomly assigned to whatever names popped up. Not so good. But K1 was just as much to blame for this - K2 just hands it out more randomly.

Why would they do that? Or rather, why would Kreia reveal anything like that to you, no matter how much influence you get with her? A secret like that would give you power over Kreia to manipulate her with, just as she manipulates Atton with his past when she discovers it, and knowing betrayal, she would never volunteer information that might be used against her. Besides, I don't think "trust" exists in her vocabulary... Also, it fits the nature of K2 to suggest this without saying it specifically one way or the other. It fits Kreia, too - even after her death, she still holds secrets and manipulates. It is possible that Obsidian considered the option and were in doubt about whether to include it. So they left it ambiguous either on purpose or because they never reached an actual decision. Or maybe it was intended as a revelation at some point in K3, which they then left clues to in K2, so that it would be more persuasive when the revelation came.

I think the devs of K1 (that would be Bioware) just didn't like the "ancient/retro tech"-look of the comic books and decided not to use it. Can't entirely say I blame them, as some of those ships really were ugly. I do think they went too far in the other direction, though, and ended up with technology that is far too close to that of the movies, which is bad 4000 years before...

Sign on the Ebon Hawk: "The Exile's instant-jedi-academy. Join up inside. Bounty Hunters need not apply."

Very persuasive argumentation there... "

Yes, and that was actually rather revealing. I mean, just listen to how he not only disagrees but even scolds Master Vandar for daring to have a different opinion - how dare he not agree with Vrook!!!

Vrook is a university professor - arrogant, condescending, grumpy, and utterly convinced that only he knows best. Trust me, I've met this time many times - if you want to meet one, just hang around the local university for a while :D

Remember what Kreia says: "The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic." There are several comments through K2 about how Revan left strategic installations intact, didn't attack Onderon (because it is strategically important due it's location close to the Sith empire), had the HK-factory built on Telos, etc... HK-47 and GOTO both make several references to this apparently farsighted strategic thinking as well. How does that disprove my theory in any way? On the contrary, I think it supports it, because Nihilus is a threat to the Republic, and Revan never intended that - he simply didn't know what the Exile had unleashed, when the Exile created the wound in the Force. Ahem, no - the Mandalorians would have conquered the Republic... Don't take my word for it - take Canderous' in K1... Again, Nihilus was always a threat never intended by Revan. And Revan needed the Republic to be strong when the war with the true Sith came. The Exile's wound in the Force and all the consequnces it brought with it, including Nihilus, is probably a big unknown factor to Revan that can really mess up his plans. Well, yes and no. On the one had I agree with you that civil war would weaken the Republic, but on the other hand, it also prepares it for the later war with the true Sith... Besides, I think that while Revan intended for the Republic to be ready by then, he did fall to the dark side and instead became the conquerer rather than the savior himself, and so turned on the very Republic that he sacrificed himself to save. He did leave it militarily intact in some cases by not attacking certain worlds and not destroying the Republic's potential for military build-up, but only because Darth Revan realized that the true Sith would remain a threat to his own empire once he had conquered. But that's just IMHO. Then again, it would be ironic if Revan dooms the Republic because he actually underestimates his own power - what if he sacrificed himself fully expecting to be overthrown by the jedi in time, only to then be too much for them to handle? Now, that would be bitter irony... She eventually did in the LS version of the story, but she didn't at the time when she embarked on the mission with Revan. Indeed, as Malak reveals, she only supported the plan because she was intrigued by the dark side and knew that this was the only way the masters would let her explore it. So basically she was willing to manipulate and use Revan just so she could explore the dark side. That doesn't say anything positive about her.

The destruction at Malachor V had nothing to do with the wound in the force. Revan never intended it - he just wanted to either see the jedi converted to blindly following him or else to die (which those who didn't join him did). The wound was created by the Exile, when he wouldn't accept his fate and his fall to the dark side. Revan had nothing to do with that, nor did the actual destruction at Malachor V, though it was incidental to bringing it about insofar as the effect it had on the Exile.

Agreed, but as I said, that's not the problem. The problem is that they just casually try to deny responsibility for it afterwards. If they had accepted their responsibility in the matter and apologized to Revan, I would have accepted it. They don't, however, and that makes them hypocritical. You don't make such a choice and then deny the responsibility if you're an ethical person - you always accept the responsibility. Vandar seemed to accept this, but none of the others did, including Bastila, who obviously fell to the dark side shortly after. Yes, I'd agree with that. Kreia is right in comdemning them for refusing to listen to the truth the Exile brings them (but she is not right in killing them for it!). No, the Exile created the wound in the force at Malachor V - Revan had nothing to do with that. Well, Revan was right too, in a sense - the true Sith had to be fought. Heck, even the Mandalorians had to be fought or the Republic would have fallen - what would the threat of the true Sith have mattered if that had happened? Yes, Revan made a terrible choice - he chose to sacrifice himself and countless other jedi in order to oppose the true Sith and stop the Mandalorians. Whether he fell completely to the dark side or not is another matter - opposing the Mandalorians and creating a jedi army to fight the true Sith was his original intention. He didn't do it because he wanted to. He did it because he knew it had to be done, and he was prepared to sacrifice thousands of jedi, since it was necessary. The council, however, did not see it that way. They did not want to see those thousands of jedi fall, but they were perfectly willing to let millions of innocent non-force-sensitives die at the hands of the Mandalorians instead. They were even willing to risk letting the Republic fall rather than risk danger to the jedi on such a mass scale. Now, who does that make the hero? That way the masters begin to look like semi-fascists, who only care about the jedi as the "herrenvolk"... If the rest of the population dies, then it doesn't matter, because they weren't jedi... Well, you can argue that either way. Nobody seems to question that the Republic would have fallen had it not been for the sacrifices Revan was willing to make. And what would the jedi order have fought the true Sith with later, if the Republic had fallen and its fleets destroyed or captured by the Mandalorians?

It's not so much that they did it, but rather the fact that they won't accept responsibility for being just as devious and manipulative as they accuse the Sith of being. Granted, Revan *was* a monster at the time. So there are extenuating circumstances for what they did. But it is the pillar of hypocrisy for the jedi to argue that it was okay for them to do it simply on a basis of necessity, when it wasn't okay for Revan and Malak to fight the Mandalorians to save millions of lives. When the revelation comes in K1, I always tell Bastila that she and the jedi are no better than the Sith, because that is true - it's one thing that they were forced into this action, but when they then try to deny responsibility for it, it makes them not only hypocritical but also ignorent of the very danger from the dark side that they thereby expose themselves to even as they condemn Revan and Malak for making themselves vulnerable to it when they choose to go to war. If that isn't jedi hypocrisy, then I don't know what is. It the worst case of "holier than thou" attitude yet seen in Star Wars IMHO.

Of the two, I actually find Exile to the "coward". Revan didn't return to the council because he was dark side - he really didn't care what they thought of him, and he accepted what he had done on Malachor V. The Exile didn't. He repressed what had happened and cut himself off from the force rather than accept the truth. Note what Kreia says after killing the masters to the LS Exile... Kreia: "The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one.And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you had no choice.It is because you were afraid."

Personally I think Kreia is indeed Kae. For one thing, look at the names... Kae -Traya = Kreia. I mean, take the "K" of Kae and add it with "Traya" but dropping the "T" - you get "Kraya", which, given how Traya is pronounced, would be identical to how "Kreia" is pronounced. No, certainly not proof, but I do find it a bit telling.

It's always there, yes, and it's always a DS version of the Exile. Try playing the game with a few different-looking Exiles. You'll see the figure changing appearance depending on what gender and face you chose for the Exile. But otherwise your choices (LS/DS) make no difference - the Exile figure is always DS.

Nihilus is an instinct. He senses the Exile, but has no intelligence to comprehend him or her with. He just senses the Exile is a danger and that he is drawn to the Exile, so he sends Visas to find the Exile and bring him or her back to Nihilus. Actually, I think we'll see more of that in K3, which is why it was left hanging. There is cut Nihilus content, yes, but I don't think any of it explains this. I think it was left as a mystery in K2 for a greater revelation in K3. It does explain one thing, though - when Kreia surrenders herself to Atris, Exile mentions that Atris will kill Kreia, since she is Sith, and since the Exile is linked to Kreia, he/she will also die. That's a primary reason why the Exile hastens to Telos. And Atris says that Kreia waits for the Exile on Malachor V, and if he/she doesn't come, she will kill herself and thereby kill the Exile as well. Yet upon reaching Malachor V, nobody seems to worry about it anymore, and Kreia does indeed die without consequence for the Exile in the end. Now, I do know that in the cut content master Vash explains that a force bond may be cut if one of the two involved falls to the dark side. I don't think that explains it, however, because Kreia was clearly already jedi, and yet the Exile seemed concerned about the connection when she went meet Atris on Telos. There would be no reason for that, if falling to the dark side would have cut the bond, and yet the concern is reiterated by Atris during the final discussion with her on Telos. Upon reaching Malachor V, this is somehow not a problem anymore... What lies between those two points of the plot? The confrontation with Nihilus. The Exile never expresses concern about the bond after the Nihilus confrontation, which could be because something has happened in the meantime - maybe a reconnection with Nihilus has cut the force bond that the Exile shared with Kreia. The Exile is probably not consciously aware of this, but does instictively know it on a subsconscious level. And that sort of subconscious knowledge marks a lot of the relationship between the Exile and Nihilus IMHO. It always struck me as odd that the Exile never looked at Nihilus' face - they were both on Malachor V, so it might have been someone he knew, but the Exile never looks - he just tells Visas to get the mask, then asks her what she saw... I think it's because he already knew and didn't want to face the truth. If my theory is correct, we may yet see that in K3.

Believe me, I've played both LS male (setting Revan to LS male) and DS female (setting Revan to DS male), and after this topic I went back to examine this part in my savegames - Revan is completely unchanged in both, and there is always a DS version of yourself standing next to him when you enter. They are both highly DS, proabably with DS mastery, which you can see for yourself with Force Sight. So no, none of what you say earlier has any effect on this encounter. The only thing that changes depending on your choices in the game is, of course, the face and gender of DS vision of yourself standing next to Revan. But the Exile-vision is always DS, no mater what choices you make in the game.

Yes. And note what Kreia tells you about Nihilus in K2: Kreia: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand." Is it just me, or does this sound remarkably similar to what we eventually discover happened to the Exile himself on Malachor V ?? Kreia: "Yes. And he fed upon its destruction - it will sustain him, for a time.Because it is not something that can ever truly be controlled... and it leaves nothing to conquer in its wake.And it rules him, not the other way around. It has its own will, its own instincts." Again, Nihilus is power without will, control, or intelligence. Nihilus is an instinct rather than an entity. He has no self. Kreia: "Power? Do you think so? You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls." All the things that define an intelligence, an individual, are lost to Nihilus. They all went someplace else... "

or play AS a ysalmiri :ph34r: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What? Speak clearly! A SALAMI? Why would an assassin have a salami in their back? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Field rations, you know... " :D

I've wonder how many times you've had to say that? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, probably more than a few times... :"> Say, maybe it would be an idea for Team Gizka to put a notice on the Progress Report on their site about things like the droid planet that will not be restored at all for whatever reason. That way we could all stop by and see for ourselves instead of bugging you with these annoying questions. Just a thought.

Oh, we are so getting locked!!!!

Eww!! Now, why did you have to go and do that? I *really* don't need *that* image in my head! Or even how that might be Leia's line, if... NO! I really must stop that line of thought!!

Do I detect a SW quote? C3P0 in Cloud City? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Okay, we both *seriously* need to play and talk less Star Wars...

OMFG0RZ! I H3ard A RUm0R A80u7 A RUm0R th4t G30rG3 luC42 1S m4K1N' A 74lK1n' S74R W4r2 G4m3zor !!11! [/bastila Skywalker] :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wouldn't that be: OMFG0RZ! I H3ard A RUm0R A80u7 A RUm0R th4t G30rG3 luC42 1S m4K1N' A 74lK1n' K0t0rRzz0rz G4m3zor !!11! [/bastila Skywalker] <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Please stop that - I don't speak or understand Bocce! :D Where's goldenrod (3PO) when I need him...

If he wants something to talk back to him, then why doesn't he just get married again? :D Yes, my bad, ladies - I know that was a cheap shot and... what are you doing with that... No, please - NOOOOOOO!!!!!!