Jediphile

In your opinion, at least. It's fair and fine that you like K1 better, but please acknowledge that other people need not agree with you, and their opinion is just as valid as yours. If you like K1 and want to argue that, that's totally fair, but everybody else has the same right to argue their opinion as well. You thinking that K1 was better doesn't make it so, and you pretty much state that as a fact, when you write sentences like "Not everything in k1 makes 100% perfect sense, but they do a lot more than they do in K2". It's still just your opinion, not a fact. Actually, that's what the council wanted him to do... They wanted everybody to just wait around and sip tea or whatever while millions died in the outer rim. Revan wasn't prepared to just wait around while that happened. I can't say I blame him... Defeating the Sith was *not* the reason why they wanted to cut him off from the Force - they wanted to cut him off because he could wound the Force and they felt the potential consequences of that ability were too dangerous to allow to exist. I don't agree with their decision, but their motives are not what you claim here. Yes, but just because you must do a thing, you don't just casually shrug and say, "hey, we had to, so there is no blame...". They used Revan against his wishes, and they didn't even tell him. Or as master Vash puts it, "We take responsibility, Atris, not cast blame." They forgot to do the first in K1... What would have happened if they had told him the truth during his re-training on Dantooine and then *aksed* him to help them? True, he might have refused to cooperate, but the point is that they didn't even give him the chance to agree or disagree to help. As Mission says later, "you're not that person anymore". Mission was a teenage girl, and she got the point. The masters clearly didn't, or else they just didn't care... What does that say about the masters? " And they could have - they could have questions to determine his moral and ethical standing. They could have asked Bastila and Revan's companions what sort of a person he was now. But they couldn't be bothered and instead just used him like a pawn. And then they won't even accept responsibility for it? Pathetic! Jedi hypocrisy at its worst! They truly were no better than the Sith! How do you know that Revan didn't know about the true Sith at that point. Kreia's comments suggest otherwise to me. "And Revan knew that the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way." "You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil." Now, you may not agree that Revan knew the true Sith were out there, but the above suggest different to me. Please don't ignore that point just because it undermines your position. Feel free to disagree or argue otherwise, but please back up your position with actual references to the game if you do, and please don't ignore my argumentation just because it doesn't fit with your perspective on the matter.

Yes, but you can't blame the masters for not acting at that point - they were a bit dead at the time... It's because the Exile has done something that is unprecedented - he has created a "wound" inside the force itself and defied the very will of the force. The masters are shocked that this is even possible - how can you wound the force? And if you can wound it, what else can you do? Can you kill it? If you can, then what would happen? Where would the jedi and sith get their powers from? Or if the Force is life, then wouldn't all life die? Those are the questions that concern the masters, and they decide that it's simply too great a risk to take. Now that the Exile has regained access to the force, he has become inherently destructive to it, because his own connection to it is still severed - he has access only by siphoning force from others through his force bonds - like a leech or a parasite, he drains the force from others around him, and his natural abilities as a leader makes others agree to this willingly - he effectively makes them submit to it through his power of the force. But his unique abilities could be a great danger. What if he created another wound? Maybe a much greater wound? Maybe he could hurt or even kill the force itself. The consequences if that were to happen are beyond imagination, so rather than take any risk, the masters decide to sever the connection once and for all, so that the danger ceases. They were willing to let the Exile go free a decade before, because they thought he had lost all connection to the force when he cut himself off from it. But they've come to see that they were wrong, and that he can still use and affect the force through his force bonding abilities with others. So they want to cut him off completely and thereby seal the wound once and for all, before the Exile can do more damage. They actually don't know how much of a threat his ability is to the force, but they decide that the risk of him doing more harm to the force is too great. So yes, they act out of fear of what could happen, and not out of knowledge. Kreia feels the opposite. She hates the force. She hates the will of the force and how manipulates and controls people - makes them do what it wants them to. Perhaps she hates it because she feels wronged by it and perhaps because it's a greater manipulator than she is. Either way, she finds the Exile beautiful, because he does not submit to the will of the force - he can reject and defy its will, and even hurt it when it tries to exert its will over him. He did that on Malachor V, when the force tried to tell him to embrace the dark side - it dictated to him that after all the horrors he had seen, he had to embrace the dark side like all the other jedi who turned there. All those who did not die on Malachor had to submit to the dark side of the force. But the Exile didn't - he rejected his fate and the will of the force, and when the force tried to exert its will over him, he cut himself off from it, wounding the force, rather than accept its will. It is not something he was supposed to be able to do, but he did it anyway, and it demonstrates a unique ability in him. Note something Kreia says. She says it about Nihilus' power to drain worlds of life, but it applies just as much (if not more) to the Exile: Kreia: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand." This is precisely what the Exile did. He severed his connection to life and the force and then feeds on the death it causes. He never learned to do this anywhere - he gained the ability through instinct from the horrors he experienced on Malachor V. The trouble is that for a decade the Exile didn't even realize himself that he could do this. Kreia did, however, and she marvels at the ability, because *finally* someone can defy the will of the force, refuse the destiny it sets for all. Atris tells us that she intends to kill the force itself. Kreia sees the force as a dark, uncaring god that coldly uses people in its constant struggle between the light and the dark, imposing its will upon them and using them with no concern for their suffering. I'm not so convinced that Kreia actually wants to kill the force, but she does want to expose it as this dark god, and threatening to kill it is the only way she can make others listen to her philosophy. She doesn't care that the Exile kills her, because by even trying to stop her, he proves her point about the Force - if she wasn't right, then he wouldn't need to stop her in the first place.

"Oh that's great - we only have 14 left..." :D

The defense rests

Jolee broke the code by: - Falling in love and getting married. - Training her in the ways of the force against the masters' wishes. - Didn't stop her when she turned dark side. - Allowed her to kill other jedi. Kae broke the code by: - Falling in love and having a child. Which is worse? Would Kae's child come before the jedi no matter what? She did send it away and kept it hidden for a decade. Doesn't suggest to me that she placed it above the order. And even if it did, Jolee got married. People will go rather far for their spouses - just look at how far Anakin will go to save Padm

And there is a movie where Kreia is kicked into the depths of Malachor and exploding Palpatine-style, which replaces the movie where the Ebon Hawk rises from the depths to rescue you as the Trayus Core falls apart. The Trayus Core doesn't fall apart in the DS ending - you just zoom out from it and see Malachor V from a distance (not exploding), and then the credits roll. There - total spoiler.

One thing I noticed concerns Kae's exile from the jedi order. We're told that the reason for it is that she has a child and is disgraced when this is discovered, and then she is exiled from the order, since jedi aren't allowed to have children. But one thing that struck me as odd is that we heard about Jolee Bindo's backstory in K1, and his infraction of the rules seems to be far worse. He took a wife, which is against the rules in the first place. Then he taught her the jedi ways against the wishes of the masters. She then turned Sith and joined Exar Kun's ranks in the Sith War. She tried to recruit Jolee to the dark side, and when he wouldn't, she tried to kill him. He defeated her, but could not bring himself to kill her, and so she lived and escaped to kill other jedi. And what did the jedi order do? They forgave Jolee. They said he needed sympathy. Jolee left the order not because they blamed him, but because he couldn't stop blaming himself, and they wouldn't take his guilt seriously. Jolee knew the responsibility was his and he accepted it. The council could learn a lot from Jolee. Now, Kae has a child and she's exiled for it? Next to Jolee, that seems to be an exceedingly harsh and cruel sentence. So she fell in love and had a child. Big deal. Jolee not only fell in love, he married and taught the force to someone who then couldn't handle it. His crime was far greater, yet he was pardoned? Odd... But the thing about Kae's sentences is to consider the source. It's Kreia who tells us that this was the reason she was exiled. Nobody else ever tells us that. Disciple mentions that Kae was exiled, but he doesn't say why. Handmaiden never even mentions that her mother was exiled at all. So both Kae and Kreia had Revan as a padawan. Not merely apprentice - the term "padawan" is specifically used in both cases. We have both of them exiled at the same time, just before the Mandalorian Wars. Kreia for her dark teachings and Kae for having a child. But for Kae we only know that from Kreia herself, and she could have ulterior motives for being less than truthful, especially if she is Kae and her daughter is aboard (and I don't think you get that conversation path unless the Handmaiden is aboard, since it occurs in relation to her presence). And we have have both of them presumed dead during the Mandalorian Wars. Though it is indeed circumstantial evidence, I do find it to be rather convincing. They could be different people, but those are a lot of coinciding factors...

Btw, Vrook is also the only master stupid enough to actually reveal the truth of Revan's identity right in from of the player when meeting the council on Dantooine in K1. Note how long this is before Bastila and Malak reveals the truth - it's while they're discussing whether or not to train you... Vandar: "Many of our own pupils are leaving the Jedi order to follow the Sith teachings, we need recruits to stand against Malak! With Revan dead..." Vrook: "Are you certain Revan is truly dead? What if we undertake to train this one, and the Dark Lord should return?" Great, Vrook - you just spilled the beans....

Perhaps you were playing with the sound turned off? :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Heh. Also helps not to read the text... " :D Yes, I tend to agree. Vrook may be a decent jedi, but if I were on the council, he'd be about the last I'd sent to settle a dispute somewhere - two seconds and he'd be scolding everyone in sight for not behaving strictly according to the superior nature of the jedi code or some such - wars start that way... Still, it might also work the opposite way, in that all the quarrelling parties can at least agree that they have their disgust of his superior and arrogant attitude in common I sort of do like Vrook, but only as the grumpy and rediculous old man that nobody can really take seriously. To me he's just like Water Matthau in "Grumpy Old Men". He's just that silly and stupid. Yup. Everything else just gets vowen into his flawed perception of things and only serve to confirm his high opinion of himself. I mean, this guy won't even listen to what other masters have to say...

I'd agree that KotOR games are rather too liberal in handing out high-tech stuff and arbitrarily assigning it to people like Exar or Ulic with little or no regard to the context. Also, it hands it out in stupid ways at times. Exar Kun's battle armor should be unique, yet if you're "lucky" you can find several examples of it via the random loot - that's not what I would call well designed. Besides, what battle armor would Exar Kun have? He was a sith (and jedi before that) and I don't think we ever saw him (that I remember off the top of my head) wear battlearmor of that kind. Why would we? It would have interefered with his force powers, and somehow I don't see him compromising those. It tastes far too much like some gear they thought up and then randomly assigned to whatever names popped up. Not so good. But K1 was just as much to blame for this - K2 just hands it out more randomly.

Why would they do that? Or rather, why would Kreia reveal anything like that to you, no matter how much influence you get with her? A secret like that would give you power over Kreia to manipulate her with, just as she manipulates Atton with his past when she discovers it, and knowing betrayal, she would never volunteer information that might be used against her. Besides, I don't think "trust" exists in her vocabulary... Also, it fits the nature of K2 to suggest this without saying it specifically one way or the other. It fits Kreia, too - even after her death, she still holds secrets and manipulates. It is possible that Obsidian considered the option and were in doubt about whether to include it. So they left it ambiguous either on purpose or because they never reached an actual decision. Or maybe it was intended as a revelation at some point in K3, which they then left clues to in K2, so that it would be more persuasive when the revelation came.

I think the devs of K1 (that would be Bioware) just didn't like the "ancient/retro tech"-look of the comic books and decided not to use it. Can't entirely say I blame them, as some of those ships really were ugly. I do think they went too far in the other direction, though, and ended up with technology that is far too close to that of the movies, which is bad 4000 years before...

Sign on the Ebon Hawk: "The Exile's instant-jedi-academy. Join up inside. Bounty Hunters need not apply."

Very persuasive argumentation there... "

Yes, and that was actually rather revealing. I mean, just listen to how he not only disagrees but even scolds Master Vandar for daring to have a different opinion - how dare he not agree with Vrook!!!

Vrook is a university professor - arrogant, condescending, grumpy, and utterly convinced that only he knows best. Trust me, I've met this time many times - if you want to meet one, just hang around the local university for a while :D

Remember what Kreia says: "The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic." There are several comments through K2 about how Revan left strategic installations intact, didn't attack Onderon (because it is strategically important due it's location close to the Sith empire), had the HK-factory built on Telos, etc... HK-47 and GOTO both make several references to this apparently farsighted strategic thinking as well. How does that disprove my theory in any way? On the contrary, I think it supports it, because Nihilus is a threat to the Republic, and Revan never intended that - he simply didn't know what the Exile had unleashed, when the Exile created the wound in the Force. Ahem, no - the Mandalorians would have conquered the Republic... Don't take my word for it - take Canderous' in K1... Again, Nihilus was always a threat never intended by Revan. And Revan needed the Republic to be strong when the war with the true Sith came. The Exile's wound in the Force and all the consequnces it brought with it, including Nihilus, is probably a big unknown factor to Revan that can really mess up his plans. Well, yes and no. On the one had I agree with you that civil war would weaken the Republic, but on the other hand, it also prepares it for the later war with the true Sith... Besides, I think that while Revan intended for the Republic to be ready by then, he did fall to the dark side and instead became the conquerer rather than the savior himself, and so turned on the very Republic that he sacrificed himself to save. He did leave it militarily intact in some cases by not attacking certain worlds and not destroying the Republic's potential for military build-up, but only because Darth Revan realized that the true Sith would remain a threat to his own empire once he had conquered. But that's just IMHO. Then again, it would be ironic if Revan dooms the Republic because he actually underestimates his own power - what if he sacrificed himself fully expecting to be overthrown by the jedi in time, only to then be too much for them to handle? Now, that would be bitter irony... She eventually did in the LS version of the story, but she didn't at the time when she embarked on the mission with Revan. Indeed, as Malak reveals, she only supported the plan because she was intrigued by the dark side and knew that this was the only way the masters would let her explore it. So basically she was willing to manipulate and use Revan just so she could explore the dark side. That doesn't say anything positive about her.

The destruction at Malachor V had nothing to do with the wound in the force. Revan never intended it - he just wanted to either see the jedi converted to blindly following him or else to die (which those who didn't join him did). The wound was created by the Exile, when he wouldn't accept his fate and his fall to the dark side. Revan had nothing to do with that, nor did the actual destruction at Malachor V, though it was incidental to bringing it about insofar as the effect it had on the Exile.

Agreed, but as I said, that's not the problem. The problem is that they just casually try to deny responsibility for it afterwards. If they had accepted their responsibility in the matter and apologized to Revan, I would have accepted it. They don't, however, and that makes them hypocritical. You don't make such a choice and then deny the responsibility if you're an ethical person - you always accept the responsibility. Vandar seemed to accept this, but none of the others did, including Bastila, who obviously fell to the dark side shortly after. Yes, I'd agree with that. Kreia is right in comdemning them for refusing to listen to the truth the Exile brings them (but she is not right in killing them for it!). No, the Exile created the wound in the force at Malachor V - Revan had nothing to do with that. Well, Revan was right too, in a sense - the true Sith had to be fought. Heck, even the Mandalorians had to be fought or the Republic would have fallen - what would the threat of the true Sith have mattered if that had happened? Yes, Revan made a terrible choice - he chose to sacrifice himself and countless other jedi in order to oppose the true Sith and stop the Mandalorians. Whether he fell completely to the dark side or not is another matter - opposing the Mandalorians and creating a jedi army to fight the true Sith was his original intention. He didn't do it because he wanted to. He did it because he knew it had to be done, and he was prepared to sacrifice thousands of jedi, since it was necessary. The council, however, did not see it that way. They did not want to see those thousands of jedi fall, but they were perfectly willing to let millions of innocent non-force-sensitives die at the hands of the Mandalorians instead. They were even willing to risk letting the Republic fall rather than risk danger to the jedi on such a mass scale. Now, who does that make the hero? That way the masters begin to look like semi-fascists, who only care about the jedi as the "herrenvolk"... If the rest of the population dies, then it doesn't matter, because they weren't jedi... Well, you can argue that either way. Nobody seems to question that the Republic would have fallen had it not been for the sacrifices Revan was willing to make. And what would the jedi order have fought the true Sith with later, if the Republic had fallen and its fleets destroyed or captured by the Mandalorians?

It's not so much that they did it, but rather the fact that they won't accept responsibility for being just as devious and manipulative as they accuse the Sith of being. Granted, Revan *was* a monster at the time. So there are extenuating circumstances for what they did. But it is the pillar of hypocrisy for the jedi to argue that it was okay for them to do it simply on a basis of necessity, when it wasn't okay for Revan and Malak to fight the Mandalorians to save millions of lives. When the revelation comes in K1, I always tell Bastila that she and the jedi are no better than the Sith, because that is true - it's one thing that they were forced into this action, but when they then try to deny responsibility for it, it makes them not only hypocritical but also ignorent of the very danger from the dark side that they thereby expose themselves to even as they condemn Revan and Malak for making themselves vulnerable to it when they choose to go to war. If that isn't jedi hypocrisy, then I don't know what is. It the worst case of "holier than thou" attitude yet seen in Star Wars IMHO.

Of the two, I actually find Exile to the "coward". Revan didn't return to the council because he was dark side - he really didn't care what they thought of him, and he accepted what he had done on Malachor V. The Exile didn't. He repressed what had happened and cut himself off from the force rather than accept the truth. Note what Kreia says after killing the masters to the LS Exile... Kreia: "The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one.And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you had no choice.It is because you were afraid."

Personally I think Kreia is indeed Kae. For one thing, look at the names... Kae -Traya = Kreia. I mean, take the "K" of Kae and add it with "Traya" but dropping the "T" - you get "Kraya", which, given how Traya is pronounced, would be identical to how "Kreia" is pronounced. No, certainly not proof, but I do find it a bit telling.

It's always there, yes, and it's always a DS version of the Exile. Try playing the game with a few different-looking Exiles. You'll see the figure changing appearance depending on what gender and face you chose for the Exile. But otherwise your choices (LS/DS) make no difference - the Exile figure is always DS.

Nihilus is an instinct. He senses the Exile, but has no intelligence to comprehend him or her with. He just senses the Exile is a danger and that he is drawn to the Exile, so he sends Visas to find the Exile and bring him or her back to Nihilus. Actually, I think we'll see more of that in K3, which is why it was left hanging. There is cut Nihilus content, yes, but I don't think any of it explains this. I think it was left as a mystery in K2 for a greater revelation in K3. It does explain one thing, though - when Kreia surrenders herself to Atris, Exile mentions that Atris will kill Kreia, since she is Sith, and since the Exile is linked to Kreia, he/she will also die. That's a primary reason why the Exile hastens to Telos. And Atris says that Kreia waits for the Exile on Malachor V, and if he/she doesn't come, she will kill herself and thereby kill the Exile as well. Yet upon reaching Malachor V, nobody seems to worry about it anymore, and Kreia does indeed die without consequence for the Exile in the end. Now, I do know that in the cut content master Vash explains that a force bond may be cut if one of the two involved falls to the dark side. I don't think that explains it, however, because Kreia was clearly already jedi, and yet the Exile seemed concerned about the connection when she went meet Atris on Telos. There would be no reason for that, if falling to the dark side would have cut the bond, and yet the concern is reiterated by Atris during the final discussion with her on Telos. Upon reaching Malachor V, this is somehow not a problem anymore... What lies between those two points of the plot? The confrontation with Nihilus. The Exile never expresses concern about the bond after the Nihilus confrontation, which could be because something has happened in the meantime - maybe a reconnection with Nihilus has cut the force bond that the Exile shared with Kreia. The Exile is probably not consciously aware of this, but does instictively know it on a subsconscious level. And that sort of subconscious knowledge marks a lot of the relationship between the Exile and Nihilus IMHO. It always struck me as odd that the Exile never looked at Nihilus' face - they were both on Malachor V, so it might have been someone he knew, but the Exile never looks - he just tells Visas to get the mask, then asks her what she saw... I think it's because he already knew and didn't want to face the truth. If my theory is correct, we may yet see that in K3.